23 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

I remember back during season 1 the book fans who didn't like the show were told to calm down, that the girl power ups at the expense of males would slow down and male characters, especially Rand, would get more time to shine, especially at falme

 

You can start apologizing now. Season 2. Falme in the bag. Rand screwed again.

 

I gave your garbage show a chance, yall lied to me and as far as I'm concerned every defender of this show is a liar who hates the books.

 

Rafe, as far as I'm concerned is a rampant misandrist and rafe of time can die in a fire.

Do you need a hug?

7 hours ago, Elendir said:

 

"he who comes with the dawn" isn't the designation of everyone who comes with the dawn. No matter how hard Couladin tries to push this interpretation.

It is part of Rhuidean prophecy. It is foretelling that person with dragons on both hands will come with dawn and that this person will be Car'a'carn.

Again, it is more than semantics. He isn’t Car’a’carn until the clan chiefs say so. I don’t care how pedantic this for y’all…I will die on this hill…at this point in the story, ain’t no Aiel saying “that’s my Car’a’carn right there” especially without the dragon tats. 
Of course, the show may change adapt things with the Aiel, because “the stone that never falls will fall to announce his coming”.

1 minute ago, Joe B said:

It every other scene it looks like this.

Then in the live scene, it looks this:

22 minutes ago, Guire said:

On scene rewatch I think brand actually came from heron on proximal blade.  Rand grabs blade as he is pushing it into Ishamael,'s chest.  I wonder if visble heron on hilt may only be on one side.  So its been hidden from audience because we are seeing unbranded side.  More likely just a prop oops though.

It every other scene it looks like this.

26 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

I mean he who comes with the dawn is the same thing the same person, or at least has the potential to be the same person, he needs to pass the trial, but I think we are getting caught up with semantics here, all the titles mean chief of chiefs. 

They turn out to be the same person, but it is more than semantics. Arriving from Rhuidean at dawn doesn’t make a person Car’a’carn. We will just have to disagree.

 It does seem like more adaptive changes are on the way in this regard. From an interview at https://decider.com/2023/10/07/wheel-of-time-showrunner-rafe-judkins-dragon-reborn/

“Well, we talked about Aviendha’s character in this moment. The important thing for her is seeing the proclamation of Rand and what he is and what that drives for her into the next season,” Judkins said.

Does this mean they wrote this way to set-up character development? 

On 10/6/2023 at 11:50 AM, Guire said:

So heron on hilt on Rands sword was just a "my bad" by show for first season and that was Tam's sword that burned up correct?  I plan a full season rewatch soon but didnt remember a sword swap.

Actually, as far as I can tell, the heron is only on the hilt for one scene. It’s as if someone asked “how does Turak know there is a heron on Rand’s sword? That line doesn’t work.” So the solution was to glue one on the hilt or vfx?

32 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

I mean in the books they have come into Randland to find him, that is why they are in tear, they declare him as that in tear, they declare themselves as his people. I don’t see how her expressing out loud what any Aiel looking at that would think was a massive stretch. 

Car’a’carn? They declared him Chief of Chiefs right there in the Stone did they? No they did not. It’s more than semantics, they were looking for and believed him to be He Who Come With the Dawn. 
We will have to WAFO to see if they change the Rhuidean Prophecies in the show. Maybe HWCWtD isn’t a thing and prophecy says you will know the Car’a’carn when you see the fire dragon atop a rower . That would make sense.

2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I didn't take it as her 'naming him' but rather as an expression of her individual belief. In terms of what that does to the Rand/Avi relationship, I need to reserve judgment. But it will have ripple effects.

Fair enough. How do you feel about her individual belief that he is car’a’carn. To me, it doesn’t make “book-sense”. I don’t see how she, or any Aiel, would straight-up believe that at this point. However, this is the show and maybe they are foreshadowing? Maybe she is a dreamwalker and has already seen him 

and recognizes him.

28 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Rand's arc will take him through Rhuidean and end with him being declared the Car'a'carn

How you do you feel about Aviendha naming him car’a’carn at the end of season 2?

6 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

and the great thing it did was isolate Moiraine out as a side character moving forward. 

Don’t bet on it.

Am I wrong in hoping for less Moiraine going forward? If so, why?

28 minutes ago, Pandemonium said:

Aviendha identifies her Car'a'carn

My book-loving self cringed hard at this.

47 minutes ago, Wassup said:

They made sure to show the ring. 

I recall how Bors noticed an Aes Sedai didn’t bother to cover her ring. The one in this scene made it a point to show it because she put it on over her glove. Like, why?

 

To show that she is BA?

.

I don’t really care about the tattoos. Why bother creating a “language of tattoos” for the Tairen culture? That is not adaptation. That is creation. 

What if they wrote Elayne’s Accepted test and put it in the show? I’m sure that would go over well.

I didn't start this thread to bash the show. I will ding the show if they intended fo the attack to be on Winternight. If they did, it is a clusterf*&!

I will respect the show if they intended the attack to occur on Bel Tine to accommodate the adaptation.

Actually I wouldn't care if random strangers online didn't persist in referring to the "Winternight attack"

So... are we in agreement that in the show, BTTA is a thing?

14 hours ago, Andra said:

You may be right - I'll have to check again.

The timeline I wrote up was based on the book.  Hence, the mention of Thom.

 

Also, if that's correct, then the most ridiculous part of it wouldn't be the precise day the attack happened.  I mean, what's one day either way?

It's having Rand and Tam stay overnight, then go back home ON BEL TINE.  Preposterous.

The more I think about it, I think the attack was MEANT to occur on Winternight and probably did. I think the problem was the dialogue not supporting it. Or editing and moving scenes around???

15 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

 

I'm not sure how trustworthy that is though.

Yes. This bonus content aligns with the books. However, the episode seems to have a bit of discontinuity with the bonus content. The timing doesn't seem to add up. Maybe it was originally written to occur on Winternight, but changes to the script caused a ripple effect?

I would understand if Rand and Tam arrived 2 days before Bel Tine. That would make sense, as they stayed the night, but why would Master al'Vere say Bel Tine was tomorrow? 

3 hours ago, Andra said:

Under the calendar the books use, Winternight is nothing more than Bel Tine eve.  I don't think it is its own holiday, and I don't think they consider it to start until sundown.

All the things we see happening the day Rand and Tam first came to town are preparations for the holiday the next day, except for those that are specifically related to dark - like the lanterns.

The dancing on the Green, the outdoor games, the food - those are all Bel Tine.

 

If the attack happened at night, it was Winternight.

 

Wishing kids "happy Bel Tine" the day before would be the same as wishing "Merry Christmas" the day before.  It's a recognition of the season, not the specific day of the holiday.

 

Also, regarding when outsiders arrived in EF in the book:

All of them except Fain were already there when Rand and Tam got into town on Winternight day.  We know that Thom got in late the night before and had to pound on the Inn's door to be let in.  "Alys" and "Andra" probably arrived earlier the same day as Thom.  I don't recall the book ever saying specifically.  But they had been there long enough that she had already been asking around town about the boys.

 

Given those details, Lan and Moiraine arrived the day before Winernight day.  Thom arrived the night before Winternight day.  Fain arrived on Winternight day.  And the attack happened after dark on Winternight.

I can see where you are coming from. Personally, I WANT the attack to have occurred on Winternight.  After another rewatch, I am even more convinced that the attack on the night of Bel Tine. Here is a timeline:

Day 1 (which appears to be Winternight, thought there is no mention)

1. Rand and Tam arrive to EF.

2. Moiraine and Lan arrive.

3. That night, during clean up, Tam says ..if there is an Aes Sedai here... Bran then cuts him off and says "then she will enjoy Bel Tine TOMORROW like the rest of us."

4. They stay the night.

Day 2 (Bel Tine)

1. Padan Fain arrives... "Merry Bel Tine. Merry Bel Tine"

2. A bunch of things happen

3. Rand and Tam return to the Westwood (I mean "up-mountain")

4. Around dusk, Rand says "maybe we should be at Bel Tine to light a candle for her". Then they light a candle using a match firestick striker ???

5. It gets dark in EF and people are floating their lanterns.

6. Marin strikes up the party.

7. Then the trolloc attack occurs.

Day 3

1. Rand brings Tam down the mountain

2. Tam is healed

3. They all leave.

I am okay with BTTA. However, it still chafes when people say it happened on Winternight in the show. The book lover in me cries inside each time, because I know it should have. It should have.

My take is that the attack occured on Bel Tine and to me it will always  be the Bel Tine trolloc attack. In the Two Rivers, they will forever remember BTTA day.

Question for episode 1 that's been bugging me. Did the trolloc attack occur on Winternight or Bel Tine?

Here are possible explanations.

Winternight:

1. Rand and Tam came down a day earlier than the books....Winternight's Eve?

1a. Same for Moiraine and Lan

2. The dancing, merriment, and lantern lighting are Winternight celebrations.

3. Padan Fain arrives on Winternight day, as in the books and says "Happy Bel Tine" to the kids, because Bel Tine is a multi-day time of year??

Bel Tine:

1. Rand and Tam come down on Winternight, as in the book.

1a. Same for Moiraine and Lan

2. The dancing, merriment, and lantern lightning are Bel Tine celebrations

3. Padan Fain doesn't arrive on Winternight, contrary to the book. He arrives the next day (Bel Tine) saying, "happy Bel Tine" to the kids.

4. Rand literally says "Maybe we should be at Bel Tine. To light a candle for her."

Other option:

1. It doesn't matter. The show is the show and the books are the books. Get over it.

2. I try to go with this option, but it eats at me every time someone mentions the Winternight attack when discussing the show. I will have to do another rewatch, but is Winternight even mentioned in the show?

57 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Its something I'm not sure was ever mentioned in the books as to what happens to a already bonded warder if the channeler is stilled.

 

The only thing that I can draw a parallel from is that the Min was able to bond Rand without being able to channel herself so I am not sure being stilled or gentled in itself would actually break a pre existing bond.

 

I'd hypothesize that the bond is not directly connected to the ability to channel but to the body. 

To me, it logically follows that if the 3 oaths go by-bye, then the warder bond does as well. 

In the Path of Daggers prologue: "Being shielded dulled and fuzzed the bond to your Warder, but being stilled snapped it as surely as death"

Okay. I made it through 10 pages, but gave up. My apologies if someone has already mentioned it (or maybe I'm wrong). This is minor, but I can't stop thinking about it....

I've always thought that masking the bond was a mental trick, like ignoring the weather, that has nothing to do with the power. I've googled, and people seem to think it is a thing that only chandlers can do. I seem to recall that Robert Jordan said it was easier for AS because they are used to doing the mental part, i.e., ignoring the heat.

With all that said:

1. If true it is a mental exercise, why does Moirane infer that she can't unmask the bond because "I can't touch the source".

2. Maybe it is AS word play and she is saying she is in no mental state to concentrate enough, because she was just pwned by Ishy and is coming to terms with being shielded.

3. I am certain she is not "stilled" and is shielded. I believe the bond would have gone bye-bye if she were severed, and Lan would have felt it.

4. I am enjoying the show for a show. However, I am having difficulty with the dissonance created by my book knowledge. It hurts.

2 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

I suspect this is a not yet seen scene from the books.

 

Perhaps, the "I will hate the man you choose" speech.

 

 

 

 

This is what I have been hoping for.