I was not a fan of Season 1 (as a book lover, I would give it a C-; if I was pretending I had never read the books, I might give it a B-.) I liked a lot of the actors but thought a lot of the writing was amateurish, many directing decisions were baffling (i.e. the Seanchan sending a tsunami against that little girl on the beach in the final scene?!) and many of the changes/cuts (knowing some changes/cuts *had* to be made) were poorly decided or not well executed. Going into detail would take all day—what's done is done.

Went into Season 2 Episode 1 hoping things would get better, as many shows improve with time.

I did think it was a little better than I was expecting. Actually looking forward to Episode 2.

A few initial thoughts:

Still not loving the way the One Power looks. When Alanna 'weaved' earth and water together, it was just generic CGI ribbons of light swirling together. Give us actual threads interlacing! There are so many interesting patterns that can be done with stitching, knitting, weaving, looming, lace, etc! Google 'weaving patterns' and imagine the One Power lacing together over and under, under and over like a complex loom... Oh well, maybe in future seasons.

I was strangely happy to see the new Mat... I wish Barney well, wherever he is, but the human side of seeing a new guy welcomed to the show and filling those shoes was really touching.

I don't like Moiraine very much. Pike is a great actress; not sure if we are supposed to dislike her character as much as I do; in the books, even when Moiraine was aloof or bossy, I never disliked her. Pike seems to lack something of the pert, chipmunky aspect I always associated with Moiraine.

My biggest concern was the smallest scene—showing Rand for 2 seconds lighting a Bel Tine lantern. Major misstep in direction, IMO. Why show him for 2 seconds? Everyone in world and in the viewing audience is wondering Where is Rand? Another missed opportunity to maybe build to a dramatic conclusion and show him at the very end staring into the Aiel Waste as the music builds... Instead we see him for 2 seconds in the dark. I get that they wanted to show him still connected to his roots, honoring Bel Tine at the same time as the E5 even though if off on his own, but it fell quite flat for me. And it makes me nervous about the hand at the helm, making these 'creative' decisions. Seems like the same bizarre mindset that would have the Seanchan launch that tidal wave in S1E8. 

Loved the Fade fight at the end... sort of. Was way too dark to see anything clearly... maybe I need a plasma TV? I agree with disliking Lan picking up the Fade sword at all, and with criticisms that Lan never seems to get a Win in this show... but I do think the show understands the Fades almost better than any other 'character' from the books. Their slinky, shadows powers. The way they almost seem to play with the frame-rate (like Into the Spiderverse) when the Fades lunge. Will try to watch it again with contrast maxed out in a darker room.

Okay, time for episode 2. Good to be back!

Following up on Nyneave and Lan sleeping together and Rand and Egwene shacking uopin Episode 1, are we to assume that the young ladies of TV-WoT just don't care if they get pregnant? Traditional attitudes toward sex and marriage aren't all about male 'ownership' of women—women had to be very careful about having children if they did not have a strong family situation for the kids to be born into. If Egwene and Rand have been sleeping together for a while, what was her plan if she got pregnant? Is there a thriving community of young, single mothers in (the) Two Rivers? Shotgun weddings? Or are Rand and Egwene just 'stupid teenagers,' acting irresponsibly? And if that's the case, what is Nyneave's and Lan's excuse? What's Lan going to tell Moirane if he accidentally makes a little baby Dai'Shan? I guess we just pretend that these otherwise responsible characters just threw caution out the window? The Wisdom and the World's Greatest Warder... acting like stupid teenagers? Except, in TV-WoT, it's not stupid, because sex doesn't lead to babies unless the writers say so. 

It's not like in Randland they can just pop over to the local peddler's wagon and get some morning-after pill. Having all these characters getting it on without any acknowledgement of the serious consequences of sex makes the world-building for the TV show that much weaker. It feels like another instance of the invisible thumbprint of modern ideology superimposed on a (fictional) culture where it makes no sense: basically modern-day hookup culture completely divorced from the reality that sex leads to babies (even in fictional worlds.) Just plain silly, in a TV show that wants us to take its treatment of the human condition seriously.

14 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

It kind of has. They talked about 'passing the bond' and 'being bonded'. But I agree that it would have been nice to have a little more clarity on that point. I would hope that we will see a bonding soon. Maybe via flashback.

I could see a scene playing out next week maybe where Nyneave is struggling to understand why Steppin did it, and worrying that perhaps her words to him ("Trust me, the pain will never go away") pushed him over the edge... but then Moiraine or Lan use the opportunity to explain a little more in depth about the nature of the bond, and how many Warders who lose their Aes Sedai end up committing suicide-by-trolloc or something similar, and how it would have actually been more surprising to those in the Tower if Steppin had overcome his grief and lived on.

Which in turn should make Nyneave eventually bonding Lan so much more powerful because the viewer clearly understands that they are taking each other's lives into their hands in a very real way.

I am curious to know what non-readers think about Steppin committing suicide and the Aes Sedai/Warder bond in general. I know they have mentioned the bond a handful of times, but is it clear to non-readers that this is actually a magical, almost tangible, unbreakable bond, or is it coming across as "well, we've been working together for so long, and are maybe in a romantic relationship, and we've grown really close over the years and really bonded." ?

I wonder, because it is instrumental in understanding how severe Steppin's grief is. If you don't know the bond is actually a magical link, literally weaving your two spirts together, then Steppin's suicide is, to me, less believable. (I'm trying to tiptoe around this sensitive issue carefully.) He is a battle-hardened warrior; he's killed many men, presumably, and seen countless people die. And we all lose people we love in this world, and experience heart-wracking grief, but committing suicide after a loved one dies is not terribly common. So if the Warder bond is not clearly understood before Steppin's death, then it's just a guy who's extremely heartbroken and chooses to end it. Which is as incredibly sad story, but... not exactly a Wheel of Time story?

Whereas if you understand the bond, you know that his grief is magically multiplied almost beyond human comprehension, and his suicide becomes more of a near-inevitability, rather than a tragic decision by someone who just can't see past the temporary grief. Which has huge ramifications for all other Wards and Aes Sedai, obviously, since even the most stoic among them know that having their bond snapped is basically a death sentence.

I think it comes across fine for book-readers in the few conversations and all the subtle, heartfelt looks between Lan and Moiraine, for instance, but I would love to hear if anyone is watching with a non-reader if they are really picking up on all that, since I can't quite tell if the magical nature of the bond has been made explicit?

21 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Trying to make the effort to enjoy the show myself - just not making myself believe it yet...

 

Old age - enjoying different things than when I was young.  Can't translate that acceptance to the show, but I have not given up.

I hear ya.

I told my wife it is like finally getting to ride on a roller coaster I have been waiting to try for years, but there is a gadget on the handlebars that keeps shooting me in the eyes with pepper spray while the ride is going. I am enjoying the wind in my hair and the big loop-de-loops, but it is impossible to ignore the pepper spray in my eyeballs no matter how hard I try. 

Will keep at it, though. Lots of beautiful artistry to appreciate in this adaptation even if I vehemently disagree with several major changes.

And there is the question of why the Trolloc's blood made a fang-shape in the water in the first place? Was it because the Dark One's evil influence just makes things look like fang-shapes sometimes, when his dark minions are involved? Or was it just because of, ya know, symbolism is cool? Except, is it? Seems like hokey fan-service to me, unless there is a deeper, in-world explanation forthcoming.

Same for Lan discovering the dead animals in the forest, shaped like a fang, in an undeniable parallel to scenes from GoT of White Walkers strewing corpses in creepy patterns. In this case, again, why? Does the Fade forces the Trollocs to leave the carcasses in the fang-shape, or do the Trollocs do it unconsciously because the Dark One's evil spirit is seeping through their subconscious or something like that? And if the Fade makes them do it, why? Does it just enjoy doing art projects in the woods in the middle of the night? Is it to alert other Trollocs and evil creatures to their location, a sort of rallying flag? But it's never explained—right after we see it, they quick-cut away and it is never mentioned again.

I'm not demanding immediate answers to every mystery, but the way some of these shots are portrayed makes me wonder if they are even intended to be mysteries, or just one-off, visually-cool shots we are intended to forget about a minute later, with no long-term explanation in the plans. For now, I am happy to keep watching to wait and see, but the mental list of unchecked boxes is getting longer...

58 minutes ago, MCSkembo said:

Especially Moiraine's ring, that thing looks like a toddler made it with play-dough.

The Aes Sedai rings are terrible. Cannot for the life of me figure out why they made them so big and bulbous and obvious and ugly.  

4 minutes ago, Daenelia said:

@Borderlander ... ? That makes me sad... There is  nothing cringeworthy about Xena. I loved that show, for all its faults it had lovely characters, and a cast that to me seemed to have a lot of fun. Also Lucy would kick anyone's behind. I get that a lot of people think it was some sort of weak and low budget show, but I think I saw something in its core. And I also don't think it equates to what I have seen of WoT so far.

I loved Hercules! I only saw a few Xena's back in the day, but I enjoyed it! It may be unfair (and inaccurate) to use 'Xena' as a reference for sloppy, cheesy, low-budget TV, but it has for whatever reason become a sort of shorthand for a particular look and feel. No offence meant.

Maybe it would be accurate if I just said the Prologue was gosh-awful.

Just... the quick-edit of the rocks falling (deliberately not showing us the One Power so they could save it for Moiraine later, which, okay, but it makes the rock-falling look like they forget to start their cameras right before a stunt coordinator pushed a bunch of foam-rocks off the top.) And the two male actors jump-diving in front of a green screen when the 'rocks' landed. And the male channeler not even starting to fight back right after his imaginary buddy just urged him to... or did he fight back, but we just didn't get to see it for some reason? We'll never know. And Liandrin's over-the-top 'I'm obviously a villain' speech. And then panning up to Moiraine and Lan just standing there, watching from the cliffs above, and Moiraine somehow instantly knows this dude was 'not the one.' How does she know? If all she has to do is look at a guy and she 'just knows,' why can't she 'just know' when she looks at Mat and Perrin? And if she didn't 'know' until after the guy got gentled, why wouldn't she interfere before Liandrin gentled him? If he really might have been the Dragon, letting Liandrin gentle him would have just lost the entire war! Hasn't this been Moiraine's life work for the last 20 years? And she just watches Liandrin gentle a potential Dragon? And then, without batting an eyelash, drops the line about the 'four ta'veren?' which has already and rightly been dissected for the nonsense it is?

That is a lot of nitpicking, I admit—but this was the opening scene! They had years and years and a blank check to get this right! 

Does not fill me with confidence for future decision-making. Quite the opposite. Makes me sad, too.

4 minutes ago, Jackdaw_Fool said:

Three episodes in and not a single blood and ashes from Mat. Did I miss it? I remember Mat saying, "shite." Those types of things would have been so, so easy to include and would have given the fans some real enjoyment in seeing the books brought to life on the screen.

I'm with you. I think by the end of episode 3, we had multiple 'S***' drops, an 'arse' (I think) and one 'bastard.'

And zero 'bloody ashes.' 

Not to mention the sleezy innuendo about Rand and Mat 'taking turns' with the barmaid. Yep, I'm sure Harriet and RJ are loving that one. Nothing like some crude sexual sarcasm about two of our young protagonists having a threesome (right before a whole scene about how Rand could 'do better' than Mat if 'he wanted a man') to let viewers know you're 'staying true to the heart and soul of the books.'

Pathetic.

Regarding the pacing, I lost count of how many scenes were cut away from the instant after a character delivered their lines. Several times it was after significant, ominous, or otherwise interesting (character-moment) lines, where you just wish the camera would hold on the actors for a few more seconds to see how they reacted, whether in silence or with a look or even a follow-up line where appropriate, but they cut away so gosh-darn fast you have no time to appreciate or digest what was just shared. This must have happened dozens of times in the first few episodes and I just find myself shaking my head and wondering why?

Maybe this is a leftover habit from old-fashioned TV where you had hard time constraints you had to squeeze into, but these first few episodes could have each been a few minutes longer at the very least, for ZERO extra money, just be letting the camera linger on these already-filmed conversations for a moment longer. What does it matter is a streaming show is 55 or 57 or 59 minutes, ect? I don't know if this sort of thing is that episodes' director's fault (and if it is, each director does it!) or Rafe, ultimately, but it was jarring, disappointing, and unnecessary. 

I don't know who that guy was, but it sure wasn't Thom Merrilin. 

But I guess the writers know best. ?

Hate to say it, but I think Rafe should be replaced. Being allowed to mastermind this huge project should not be something he gets to automatically do for 8 years just because Amazon liked his pitch 4 years ago; Amazon owns WoT, not Rafe, and I think it would be in their best interest to make the ice-cold decision to say 'Thank you for getting things started, but you're not the right man to helm this particular wheel, we'll take it from here.'

The decision to start with that voice-over cold open of Moiraine talking (to herself...? to the viewer...?) about the Dragon... I honestly did not know if the actual show had started or if some teaser clip had accidentally been inserted before the real show queued up. So clumsy. Borderline inept.

Oof... and then the Xena-style 2nd prologue... Absolutely cringe-worthy.

They had 2+ years and a $100 million dollars, and THAT is how they introduce Wheel of Time to the world? I would not be surprised if tens or hundreds of thousands of potential viewers turned it off right there; I've given up on plenty of shows after the first few minutes.

It's like a football coach not using his last timeout and letting the clock expire, losing the game—just horrendous, head-scratchingly awful decision-making. Vote of no confidence from me.

That's not to say the show did not have some good decisions and other positives in other areas (and a fair share of other bad ones) but when your Head Honcho allows that kind of gobbledygook to slip through, he got to go, simple as that.

The Dark One has laid his evil web upon my life, and I find myself having to go to the DMV this morning before I can come home and start watching. BOOOOOOOOOOO ?

I'll probably just have a heart attack and lay down for a while

4 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I can't even begin to think how I would start adapting the Eye of the World and trying to condense it down to 500 pages of a script.

It's so true. I almost feel bad taking pot-shots at these guys from my computer chair, here, like some nitpicking little internet troll, when they've been putting in 70-hour weeks on a nearly impossible task, with a world of pressure to live up to, living in Prague, spending all day thinking about WoT, getting catered lunches and OKAY I've talked myself back into it, let the potshots continue! ?

4 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

To be honest, I like what you've written from a *reading* POV, but if you take any "intro to screenwriting" class or something like it, they will hammer home the idea of getting a point across in 5 words is better than 20. A lot of screenwriting (from my limited understanding - I've attended a couple of those intro type courses) is about telling as much as you can in as little space as possible, be that dialogue or a whole scene. 

It's a great point, and true—but it makes the writer inside of me shudder. But I write books, not screenplays.

I heard a story once about Beethoven; one of his publishers told him the new symphony he just composed was genius, a work of art, but it was too complex, it had too many notes, and he should trim some out. Beethoven said, "Okay—which ones?"

I will almost always land on the side of the fence of keep the quality of the writing as high as possible, engaging, genuine, and realistic, and the audience will stay with you. There was a lot of praise for extended conversation in GoT that lasted several minutes... I'm not sure the screenwriting-rule-of-thumb is always true.

And there may be a difference for writing screenplays you are hoping to sell (which need to hook a reader quickly) and final scripts given to actors who are already committed to a 100$ million show, and have no more 'gatekeepers' to win over.

But I definitely see the other side as well, and hard decisions do have to be made.

My 17 favorite Dragonmount regulars! (you know who you are!) ?

8 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Even if it sucks? lol

I will be making a concerted effort to enjoy it even if it sucks! Cuz it's all we got.

Getting old sucks, too, but I'm trying to enjoy that... ?

1 minute ago, CaddySedai said:

Oh and I would love dialogue like that. But In a series trying to compress 11k pages into something watchable they took liberties.

Very understandable, I will give them that. ?

2 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

ps. WoT is in the future so.. ?

I stand corrected! ?

Here's an example of what I refer to above:

Nitpicking, I know, but these things jump out at me. 

Don't get me wrong, though—I am totally ready to binge all three episodes and let the goodness wash all over me!

Edit: Admittedly, I don't have much to go on—just clips and snippets. And some of these nitpicky things can tend to melt away in the course of a longer dialogue conversation where the actors really sweep you away.

The same way sitcoms or comedy movies will bring in professional comics to 'punch up' a script and add a few more zingers, I would love if Amazon would invest in some professional fantasy writers who are specifically known for excellent prose to do a once-over on the dialogue for future seasons. I don't read as much as I used to, but I know there is a world of difference in vocabulary/voice/tone/and timbre between, say, GRR Martin and Brandon Sanderson. 

Some of the early dialogue to me is sounding kind of... modern.

8 hours ago, TheMountain said:

I always joke with my wife that she reminds me of Nynaeve, and after the screening she was like, "Really? I don't get that at all." Lol

 

So far, the problem is less her acting, and more the lines she was given.

8 hours ago, Guire said:

Maybe writers just don't get Nyn then.  Kind of Sanderson with Mat deal.  Not bad just not quit getting the reason Mat was so good.  This almost falls into the representation argument.  Sometimes you really don't know what you don't know.  

I have been wondering all along (and having not seen the show yet) whether the writers (and to a lesser extent the actors, who have to deliver the lines that are written for them) will fall into the trap of not wanting any of their future Hollywood stars to be unlikeable, steer away from any potentially unlikeable or unmarketable character faults, and end up making them too bland. (What some might call the Harry Potter syndrome... Ron is funny, Hermione is brilliant, but Harry, the star of the show, is just... (in his own words) just Harry.)

So, for instance, did they lean away from making Nynaeve temperamental and bossy in Season 1 because nobody wants to root for a bossy girl who frequently flies off the handle? (Even if that is a drastic oversimplification and Nynaeve has great internal motivations for everything she does; not to mention the fact that some people very well may want to root for such a girl!) What you end up with is... just Nynaeve. Just a friendly, milquetoast, everyday village wisdom who cares for her friends and can kick butt when she needs to? 

What about Perrin? I am loving Rutherford's whole presence and personality, and in an interview recently he said Perrin does not have a whole ton of lines... which sounds true to Perrin. For now. Will the writers and Marcus himself be satisfied with that, moving forward? Or will they want everyone in the E5 to basically have the same amount of speaking lines, not to mention screen time, hero-shots, and applause-worthy moments? 

And will aging Lan and Thom down and aging the E5 up also play into the trap, where everyone's personality and characterization just kind of blend together into 'generic fantasy protagonist'?

Just so strange and troubling that Barney is not included in any press or interviews or anything... It's like he's been memory-holed.

10 hours ago, TheMountain said:

Wow... I was a skeptic, but color me impressed!

??? Who are you and what have you done with TheMountain? ?