Oh, yikes—I had not even considered that they might take *that* page out of the GOT playbook... if they sex up the show, add modern swearing, AND kill off main characters for shock value, I will probably begin my own Padan Fain-style downward spiral into madness.

That said... I can see how they might talk themselves into offing Tam. And he may well be the most likely of the big stars to go... Tam's heroic death on Winternight could be used as a major catalyst for Rand to flee Emond's field. Kind of makes sense, in a way... otherwise, do we assume Michael McElhatton only shows up in episodes 1 and maybe 2, then disappears for a 2 or 3 seasons before making a comeback when the Two Rivers returns to plotline-prominence? Amazon might indeed view it as very Game of Thronesy to kill off Roose Bolton Tam a la Ned Stark, not at the end of Season 1, like Ned, but the end of EPISODE ONE!!!! AHHHHHH!!!

Or, maybe, just maybe, they have Tam actually accompany the group that flees Emond's Field on theor merry adventures. This could be the sort of big change Brandon Sanderson hinted he was not thrilled about. And it would give the showrunners more time to play with such a great actor as McElhatton, as well. Almost seems a shame not to have him tag along. Anyway, I am totally spitballing, here—I don't know what to think.

I read the books for the first time when I was 16, although only 8 or 9 of them were out by then. Read each new one as it came out, then reread the whole series right before A Memory of Light. So, my favorite characters are heavily weighted by nostalgia, and then that nostalgia is retrospectively balanced by being 20 years older and all the changes in perspective that brings.

10. Birgitte Silverbow - I thought her adoration of ugly men was just incredibly bizarre as a young guy, but as I grew older, I came to read her with such a sly smile on my face, she has to be in my top ten. Legendary warrior archer, cool name, creative character arc in terms of being torn out of her place in the Pattern. Man, Jordan was such a master of taking things like that—a hero intertwined in the Pattern—and shaking it up. Like, remember the first time an Asha'man bonded an Aes Sedai? Mind. Blown. (I'm not even sure I am remembering that correctly, but it seems like that sort of thing happened 20 times at least.)

9. Asmodean - I always loved the idea of Rand trapping one of the Forsaken and forcing him to be his mentor. I know he was not around very long; he makes my top ten more for the idea of the whole thing, though the details have sort of faded in my memory.

8. Padan Fain - I could easily talk myself into putting Fain as high as my 2 or 3 spot. When I think back on Wheel of Time, Fain is one of the first names that comes to mind. I found his descent into darkness utterly fascinating as a young reader; I had never before encountered such a 'wild card' of a villain. The only reason I ranked him so low is that he simply was never on the page as much as I would have liked—there seemed to be whole books where he disappeared—and I thought the 'gimmick' behind his ultimate demise was a little undercooked. 

7. Aviendha - Always had a crush on Aviendha. At one point, long before I got married, I thought I might name my daughter Aviendha. Nostalgia-points are strong with this one ?

6. Galad - Ends up just being straight-up heroic and noble, even though I thought he was a prig when I was 16. Doesn't hurt that he was one of the best swordsman in the kingdom. 

5. Ishamael - Rand's foil. Was always, always interested when he was on the page, whether in Rand's dreams or lurking behind the scenes with the Saa rolling over his eyes, ruminating about the Fisher King... This stuff lit my mind on fire as a young adult.

4. Thom - Honestly, this one goes more toward tone and texture in my mind. A Gleeman. A multi-colored cloak. Chanting in the High Tongue. (Am I remembering that right?) Knives up his sleeve, a spring in hsi step, a twinkle in his eye. If nothing else, Thom was COLOR, almost cartoonishly-so, in a world that might otherwise have been a little too monochromatic.

3. Mat - Hardly needs an explanation. Maybe if I went back, I would find, as others have noted, that his early character development was lacking, but in my head, Mat is Mat is Mat, almost a Platonic ideal of himself, regardless how well Jordan wrote him. It's the same reason we love Indiana Jones, Robin Hood, and Jack Sparrow. Maybe after the show is a huge hit, Mat Cauthon will earn his rightful spot at the table of All-Time Rogues and Rascals.

2. Lan - I did not care much for Lan in the early days; maybe I was too young. I remember not even liking name the first time I read Eye of the World. But as I grew up, and when I reread the series in my early 30's, and gosh darn it by the time he takes on Demandred in the end... whew, that is some all-time stuff, there. Frickin' love Lan.

1. Rand - As a 16 year old, this story, to me, was Rand's story. Every other character was side-dressing, in the end. When I reread it, even if I am an old, old man, I will still feel like Rand is the one I am truly revisiting.

(Honorable Mentions: too many to list. I am slightly mortified that my main man Perrin, as well as Moirane, Egwene, and Verin all got bumped. And I strongly suspect on my next read-thru, I will like and relate to Nynaeve A LOT more than I did as a 16 year old ? )

Some astute fans have noticed the last two reveals from the production team relate to Iron (Rand's sword) and Music (Thom's guitar.) Is this a ta'veren-like coincidence or do you think Rafe is trying to disrupt the ancient treaty with the Eelfinn ("Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind.")?

Update: Sorry, everyone, I created the poll with the comments disabled. I just fixed it. Hope you will all chime in! (Thanks to the admin for letting me know ?)

Disappointed, but not bummed out. Clearly, this is all part of The Master Plan. Bear with me...

Had they done some sort of cool reveal today—or any announcement at all—2 weeks after Thom's guitar, it would be tantamount to promising us that the timeline for these reveals was reliably accelerating (since the guitar was 3 weeks after Rand's sword) and that we could also expect something cool next week, following a 3-2-1 pattern. And after the 1... what then? Only something truly epic would slake our thirst, to quote the venerable Davey Jones. Perhaps they aren't quite ready to commit to that just yet.

But, if they feed us again next week, they can maintain the goodwill by demonstrating that *approximately* every 3 weeks we will get a cool tidbit to tide us over, and they can play that game for a few months if they need to until they are ready to really roll out the big release-date announcement/teaser-trailer.

You may be right; I have noticed that theme creeping into the dialogue more and more, as well. I must say, I am ready for anything with this show, but I was rather jarred by the comment 'gird your loins.' Seems a far cry from what we have been hearing all along about staying true to the spirit of the books and Harriet and Brandon signaling their general approval and whatnot. I hate to inject even one iota of pessimism into the conversation, but 'gird your loins?' Not feeling it. ?

I am totally down for an expanded Logain storyline; I love almost all the casting and am willing to be won over by any actor I have doubts about (I'm looking at your, Thom); I understand very well the need to adapt, change, trim things down, and add stuff; and yet... 'gird your loins?' For what, exactly? A sexy, muscular, masculine, brooding 'gleeman' strumming a guitar in a drab travelling cloak that maybe has some dingy, dirty colored patches on the inside, singing a gloomy song that sounds like The Rains of Castamere remixed? Rafe says the costume designer nailed it, and I am willing to wait and see... but I would be lying if I claimed a little part of me is not disappointed that we will not be seeing an older Thom with wild white mustachios and twinkling eyes, playing a harp fit for a court bard, swirling around before the fireplace in a colorful patchwork cloak! 

Again, not trying to judge the thing before they have a fair chance to show us their work, but I sometimes wish I could take out a full-page ad in Hollywood and tell them that just because you want your next show to be as successful as Game of Thrones, does not mean you have to copy Game of Thrones' exact tone and texture. Look what happened to Superman when they tried to emulate the world-weary grittiness of Batman Begins with one of America's brightest, most optimistic superheroes. Not good. Not utterly, irredeemably terrible, but not good. On balance, the Wheel of Time is not nearly as gritty, grungy, grubby, dirty, soiled, mucky, bloody, and smutty as the world of Game of Thrones... I really hope they do not think it is there job to make it so. So, here's hoping I am wrong about all this... but 'gird your loins,' I guess.

Although I have many a' thought about Thom's guitar and his inside-out cloak (?), I find it most interesting that the guitar and Rand's sword were revealed 3 weeks apart, after nearly 3 months since glimpsing the Winespring. I think it is safe to assume that somebody behind the scenes on Rafe's crew—if not Rafe himself—has some kind of plan in place about what they are going to show us, and when. This is a 100$ million production; they are not flying by the seat of their pants. I mean, *maybe* they work these little videos up on the fly, without much forethought, but if following entertainment news in general has taught me anything the last several years, it is that every detail of these productions (in front of the camera and behind it) is mapped out fairly meticulously. So, they have a plan. And that plan has led them to release two cool Twitter videos 3 weeks apart. Now, we have to (have to, I say!) ask ourselves which is more likely:

1) That their master plan calls for the timeline of these reveals to elongate again, dragging things out, only releasing snippets of this and that seemingly at random, here and there, driving fans nutty? Or...

2) That the 3-week window between the 2 highly polished videos is more suggestive of a 'condensing' of the timeline, and that more frequent and well-crafted reveals, perhaps spaces by 2 or 3 weeks, and then by 1 or 2 weeks, and then by a week, and then by days, will lead to a Grand Reveal?

I think we will see something tomorrow for sure, but my hunch is it will be something of a kind no one is expecting. The same way they showed a glimpse of the Winespring (a location), then followed that with Rand's sword (a familiar item), then Thom's guitar (a new item), I think our next reveal will be categorically different... A character outfit (like Moiraine's cloak) or monster design is a possibility, but I do not think they will show us any cool monsters before the trailer drops. As for a logo or promo art, my spider-sense tells me we are not quiiiiite there yet. What does that leave? I don't have a clue! ? ...Maybe a photo(s) of a character in costume, but from an angle where we can't quite see everything...

I don't care if it is from an unofficial account—I'll take anything at this point! ?

I am dying to see Thom in his cloak. When I first read EoTW, working at a local bookstore when I was 16, pulling books of the Fantasy shelf and sneaking reading behind the counter when I should have been dusting shelves or doing inventory, nothing in the first few chapters so completely ensnared me as meeting Thom in his patchwork cloak and seeing the word 'gleeman' for the first time in my life... ☺️

I wonder also if the biggest deciding factor will be the 800 lb. Balrog in the room. Although all the eminently intelligent readers of this forum will innately understand that the WOT series is, conservatively, 7,000% more important to the Grand Scheme of Things than some half-baked, over-sexed LOTR/GOT hybrid wannabe series, something tells me the executives at Amazon probably don't see it that way. Which is to say, their first priority may well be to determine when the LOTR show should air, for maximum cultural impact, be it spring or fall or sometime else, and then they will simply slate WOT for the opposite side of the calendar, in order to maintain a year long stranglehold on our fantasy-loving brains for the next several years.

I have seen no news on when LOTR might be ready, but it seems to be less far along than WOT, at this point. So, if they decide they want to air LOTR in fall of 2021 (which seems a bit early to me; then again, 

I have no evidence to go on), they might push to have WOT ready this spring, rather than wait until the next spring (2022), heaven help us. On the other hand, if LOTR shapes up to be ready in Q1 or Q2 of 2022, and that is determined to be the optimal season of the calendar (following in GOT's early footsteps, if I am not mistaken) then maybe they will sit on WOT until the fall, regardless of whether it is ready to air or not. (There are, after all, dozens of examples of studios holding finished products in the can these days, waiting until they can get a better bang for their buck.)

I think it is important to point out, for the sake of all our sanity, that even if they wait until Fall 2021 for any of the numerous credible reasons listed above (and in other people's posts) then we are, at the very, very least, due for some sort of actual film trailer on or before, oh, let's say August 31 of next year...? Less than 9 months away! I think I can make it that long........

Well, shoot... after reading Thrasymachus, I wonder if I am way off...

Although, if they did hit us with a trailer in December, they could still release in April or May and have a solid 4 months of marketing lead-up. And if Amazon plastered it all over their homepage, or even their Prime page, they could accomplish in 3-4 months what an HBO or a Netflix is able to do in twice that time, in terms of the sheer number of eyeballs it would get. And, if Witcher only got 5 months...

I also wonder if they could, in fact, start filming Season 2 straight off in April, as Thrasymachus seems to think does not quite add up... and it is a solid point... but they do not need to, nor do I think we should expect several months of trickling-in casting news and table-read type videos to keep the hardcore fans salivating. They could very well start shooting in April even before Season 1 hits the air—this may not be conventional, but aren't a lot of the conventional rules being rewritten during these still-early years of the 'streaming wars?' Not to mention having to be flexible around the new norms of Covid.

I would bet my lunch they already have an unofficial greenlight for season 2. Bezos has long been rumored to be a fan of the series (which, I admit, technically is no proof at all of anything), but Amazon better than anyone knows how well these books have sold over the years, and with the amount of money they are putting into it, there is no way—but I repeat, no way—they are not going full steam ahead with a second season, even if that means filming before season 1 airs . And with all the time off here over the Fall, I believe the writers and Rafe will have those season 2 scripts polished to a mirror-shine well before April not only as a matter of course for creative-types who typically plan for multiple seasons, but with the firm behind-the-scenes wink-wink knowledge that those scripts will be used sooner than later.

What I would feel more confident saying is that if we do not get a big teaser in December, indicating the beginning of a serious press-blitz, the odds of a spring-release will dramatically plummet, imho. 

I think it will be ready in the spring. For a few reasons:

1) I have a strong hunch, and I've never been wrong before. 

2) I think it's safe to assume that, having finished shooting episodes 1-6 earlier, they must be very nearly finished with post-production on those 6 eps by now (excepting for any necessary pick-ups; see #3.) I think it is reasonable (though by no means conclusive) to speculate that they would have been able to finish filming episodes 7-8 in the 6-8 weeks they were back on location, plus this most recent 'battle' scene filmed in Spain. (Or am I wrong about how long they were back on location?) If that is true, then 3-5 months of post-production over the winter should be more than enough to finish all remaining work, since 6 eps should be so close to completion already.)

3) I'm no expert, but I think they could probably do a lot of the leftover pick-ups here in the States. Of course, if they need to do some long shots of mountain ranges or an aerial view of the Two Rivers or something epic and sweeping like that, I could be wrong... but if they just need some smaller stuff, like additional dialogue between characters, interior shots, close-ups, etc., there is no reason that cannot be done on traditional sets, stateside. Even with lots of lockdowns going on, I think there are enough states that would allow it or grant studios 'essential' status to finish this brief bit of filming. (From what I hear, there is still a lot of filming still being allowed for studios that are willing to foot the exorbitant bills of all the extra safety precautions.) Also, maybe they can swallow that bitter pill and do a few shots with digital backgrounds; I think this is not Rafe's preference, but if it means a 6+ month difference in the release schedule, maybe he would sign off on a few more CGI mountainscapes that most of us would never even realize were fake.

4) If they had not finished filming eps 7-8, or are unable to complete pickups at home or digitally, and were, as a result, totally unable to meet any release date earlier than next Fall, I think they would tell us. Because they love us. I find it more plausible that they were in fact able to finish, and are keeping a tight lid on any news because they are gearing up for some exciting reveals in the weeks/months to come.

I must say, the sword is exactly as I pictured it... which is probably because it so closely hews (?) to a lot of the fan art that is out there, and maybe some of the cover art on the books (although I can't remember for sure whether Tam's sword specifically was ever on a cover.) Point being, there is a sort of popular consciousness about what a basic Randland, heron-marked blade looks like. Still, all credit to the design team for nailing it.

But what it makes me wonder is, how will they do on design elements which are less uniformly depicted in the online artworld? There are so many different versions of trollocs out there, and Myrddraal, and gleeman's cloaks, and ogier, and even simpler things like the dragons on Rand's arms. There is no wrong answer, of course, but it will be fascinating to see what they ultimately go with... and then perhaps to go sifting through Google Images and see if it looks like they 'borrowed' inspiration from specific fan artists.

One of the best things ever, going back to the LOTR bonus material, was how Alan Lee and John Howe, who had been doing concept art for book covers and calendars and whatnot for years and years were tapped by Peter Jackson to join the production team and offer their design visions for the movies. Since so many of us have probably seen a lot of the same WOT-related fan-art online over the years, and I have to assume Rafe and his team have seen a lot of the same stuff as well, I wonder if we will be able to spot subtle bits and pieces here and there that were similarly co-opted.

Hey Elder,

I do check the @WoTonPrime routinely... but somehow I missed that, even when I went to check right before asking you about it. ? Thanks for filling me in, though.

I guess I'm too late to 'guess' now... but I can be the first one to comment on the reveal. 

The sword looks great to me! I hope when all is said and done, they release tons of behind-the-scenes footage about production design and all that good stuff. I think one of my favorite 'fantasy' bits of pop culture over the last decade was all the bonus features on the LOTR extended edition dvds... There must have been 30+ hours of extra material. Looking back, I am almost more fond of the bonus material than the actual films. 

Hey Elder,

I must be out of the loop... why are we expecting special news today??? 

The more I think about it, with the apparent audio-looping, I think this is probably not finalized audio pulled from a finished scene. Possibly a mash-up of sound effect snippets they intend to use for a specific scene, but not a final cut. It just seems too jumbled; the background voices are too wild/panicky to be Bel Tine, yet not fearful enough to be Winternight. When the show premiers, and we hear Egwene and Perrin deliver these actual words—which may well be finalized versions—the background track could be drastically different. 

I might have a been a little unclear: I don't think this particular graphic is what Weaving will look like. I mean, it might, but I doubt it. My thought was more that, since they put this much creativity into a small promotional graphic, they are hopefully putting a lot more creativity into the Weaving CGI, which I would expect to be markedly different in appearance.

If anything, though, like Elder_Haman just sort of alluded to, this could be a precursor/proof-of-concept type of demonstration for how Saidin looks/feels in Rand's mind, which I seem to recall was often described as an oil-slick in pure, clean water.

I was more interested in the visual graphic than the audio. I have a lingering concern that the way they depict Weaving on the show is going to look... uninspired. I still have a bad taste in my mouth from the plasmic light-sabers in Harry Potter. I remember seeing Harry duel Voldemort for the first time and thinking, 'Huh? Did I miss something in the books? Wand-magic looks like... volcanic plasma? Is it dripping?' And everyone else is  shooting photon-blasts at each other from their wands... and that's supposed to be magic? Not good.

So, I have been worried that the Weaving is going to be similarly 'oversimplified.' If anyone has a Playstation, and you know what that ethereal ribbon of shifting, flowing colors looks like on the Home screen... I can imagine them just going with something like that. Which is not exactly unattractive, or incorrect, but I would find it kind of bland. I am really hoping they do some serious visual-research into all different types of sewing/stitching/crocheting techniques (of which there are hundreds, many of which are incredibly complicated and eye-bending), add in a healthy dose of Cat's Cradle and Spirograph-like interconnected, ever-changing loops and plaits and threads cinching and braiding together... you get the picture. Kind of like how the Transformers or Iron Man's suit all piece together, but with dozens or hundreds or even thousands (later in the series) of magical, glowing threads all looming themselves into a coherent whole. Which takes research, imagination, trial & error, time, money... and I was doubtful it would look as cool as it could.

But! Seeing that little black and white ying-yang symbol swirl around in a circle, which admittedly looks nothing like Weaving, yet nonetheless has a very unique look about it, and I can't quite say I've ever seen a CGI effect that looks precisely like that. Which makes me think/hope/cross my fingers that their visual artists may be up to the task, after all!

Like I said, I never doubted them for a minute! ?

I agree with Elder_Haman's belief that the more personal our connection to/understanding of each Forsaken is, the better the show will be. Few stories benefit from having villains that are unknowable shadows lurking in the darkness. But Redgiant also makes a great point, in that you do not have to (nor should they) fully flesh out each of the 13.

I know some of this has already been said, but here is how I look at it. My goal is to try to figure how to make it work with all 13, because I do believe that when you start making little changes here and there (regardless of lost-symbolism, etc.) you end up having to make bigger and bigger changes down the road (like telling lies that keep growing and growing.) So, starting with the Forsaken you absolutely have to keep:

Ishamel/Moridin - a no-brainer. But for the first few seasons, his screen-time can be limited to Rand's dream-sequences and some dark, shadowy lurking, positioning him to really step up as Big Baddie #1 in the later seasons. Screen time needed: very little in early seasons.

Lanfear - Regardless of what they do with 'Cyndane,' Lanfear stays. (It seems a little silly to me to do the Cyndane thing, since TV audiences will obviously recognize the same actress, whereas book-readers kinda-sorta knew it was Lanfear all along, but you never *really* knew at first.) Anyway, she has limited screen-time until Season 2 at the earliest, and then spends a good amount of time with or around the main characters. Screen time needed: a lot, and well worth it.

Asmodean - Agree with Elder_Haman; keep this arc the same. Having Rand capture and learn from one of the Forsaken is too juicy to pass up. Screentime needed: a good amount, but not until Season 2 or 3.

To me, those are the three most important story-wise. Moving on, but jumping to those who can stay on the outskirts of the story, soaking up very little (if any) screen time for the first several seasons:

Demandred - Keep. I think making this be Taim would be better for TV, even if it is 'telegraphed' a bit much. A dread name, a running mystery... and no additional screen-time needed beyond what Taim already gets. Screen time needed: only what Taim is already allotted.

Semirhage - Also keep, largely unseen for most of the series. A scary name, a whispered fear. Possibly see her a few times here and there as a face in certain Seanchan scenes, but keep the reveal of her true identity a complete secret/surprise until Season 5 or 6. Screen time needed: very little.

Jumping now to some of the Forsaken who get eliminated early:

Aginor & Balthamel - Keep both. They appear at the Eye, two visually-distinct characters, it is a shock to Rand and the TV viewers ("Oh my gosh, we have heard about the Forsaken, but here are TWO of them at once, whatever will Rand do?") and Rand destroys them. My thinking is, if Rand is going to kill one of them, why not just make it two? It is more true to the story, it makes Rand even more of a badass, and it gets us closer to the goal of keeping all 13 Forsaken in tact. The surprise encounter with not one, but two big bad guys at the Eye is simply too juicy to pass up. Screen time needed: very little.

Be'lal - Whether we see Moiraine sneak away and kill him or not, keep this the same. Allow Moiraine to keep her secret, midnight mission, which shows us how powerful of an alley she truly is; introduce us to balefire. Requires no character development or screen time for Be'lal other than the showdown itself. Screen time needed: very little.

So, we are through 8 of the Forsaken, have kept the story largely intact, and have used up very little screen time overall. Let's keep going!

Sammael - Totally keep. Makes conquering the Stone so much more of an accomplishment. Also, paired with Rahvin, shows how insidious the Forsaken are at infiltrating the halls of power. If you cut out or diminish the roles of either Sammael, Rahvin, and/or Semirhage, you change this whole nationwide power dynamic which makes the reader/viewer/Rand feel like everywhere you look, the Forsaken are already there, two steps ahead of you. Plus, Sammael will be killed by the end of Season 2, or mid-season 3 at the latest, I assume, not only adding another notch to Rand's belt, but freeing up valuable screen time for other characters after he is gone. Screen time needed: a decent amount in seasons 2-3, then he is eliminated.

Rahvin - I would basically make the same case as I did for Sammael. And if they are even going to pretend to do anything with the Morgase plotline, you need Rahvin. Screen time needed: moderate, depending on how much of the Caemlyn/Morgase makes the cut.

That's 10 Forsaken accounted for—we are almost there. And at this point, I think it makes far more sense to go for broke than to combine/condense the 13 down to 11 or 12. These are also the 3 that, for whatever reason, do not stand out as vividly in my memory in terms of arc and how they ultimately met their demise. Also, so far I have 2 women in my list, so we definitely need to even up the balance. Actually, though, I think the remaining three provide a great opportunity to give more screen time to the Forsaken, since everyone above is basically limited to very little screen time or concentrated doses right before they die. If I recall correctly, Graendal and Moghedian stick around for quite a while, scheming and plotting, and do perhaps the best job of illustrating just how different in personality the Forsaken can be. And Mesaana, as a dark force who actually infiltrates the White Tower and runs the Black Ajah, indispensable.

Graendal - Keep. Especially in later season, when 6 Forsaken are already dead and 2 more are almost never on screen (Demandred and Semirhage) you need more Forsaken remaining or it will seem like they were never really that great a threat to begin with. Screen time needed: a moderate amount, building in later seasons.

Moghedian - Keep, for reasons listed above. Also a wonderful visual  contrast to certain other Forsaken. Screen time needed: a moderate amount, balanced with a certain tendency to stick to the shadows.

Mesaana - Indispensable. Possibly you could combine her with Alviarin, as Elder_Haman suggested, as long as we still occasionally get to see her in her weird, spectral form with the silver eyes. Arguably, she is on the most important to keep, as the puppetmaster of the Black Ajah. Screen time needed: little, at first, possibly disguised as Alviarin (or another sister.)

There we have it! We get to keep all 13, sacrifice almost nothing in terms of story, keep all the mystical symbolism of the 13, and give Rand & Co. a long list of terrifying bad guys to stay up at night worrying about, while still allowing for several big showdowns and deaths to be peppered throughout the seasons. Most importantly, I think there is not nearly as big a burden upon the Great Pie Chart of Screen Time Allotment as might be initially supposed. 

Whether dead Forsaken are continually brought back to life is another question... which I argued in favor of on another thread.

Finally, if other antagonists (or even ambivalent side-characters) need to be cut or curtailed to make room for the Forsaken (such as the Seanchan, to an extent; the Sea Folk; the gholam; Slayer; Masema,) I would, of course, like to keep them all, but if I had to choose, I would largely favor keeping all 13 Forsaken and making cuts elsewhere, but will have to save those thoughts for another post.

Now, I'll just print this up and send it along to Rafe...

On 10/9/2020 at 10:21 AM, mistborn82 said:

To show that he's special, I think need Ishamael reincarnated as Moridin but he's the only one.

I wonder about this... On the one hand, if the Dark One is just bringing back every other Forsaken who gets 'killed', is there a legitimate narrative pitfall that this will numb the horror/awe/potency of each resurrection for viewers? And yet, if the Dark One only brings back Ishamael/Moridin, then how much are we really going to fear the Dark One? Isn't he the Lord of the Grave, after all? Why would his power to resurrect be limited to just one of his minions? (I suppose the writers could argue that, since the Dark One is *partially* sealed, he can only bring one person back to life... but still, why? And which character would know this and explain this to the viewers? Is the 'hole' in the seal only one man-width wide? I mean, really, how do you clarify this in a metaphysical sense without resorting to vague hand-wavium? Have Harad Fel telling Rand, "Ah, yes, in my studies I have determined that the Lord of the Grave can only bring back one dude at a time, because, you see, ahem, well... reasons.")

When I read these books the first time as a teenager, I remember counting off every Forsaken that Rand killed, keeping score... (Cool, he killed another one, and another one... now there are only 9 left... now there are only 8 left... etc...) And it felt like Rand was slowly making progress in the overall battle of Good vs. Evil. And I felt comfortable with my little, mental list, and all was right with the world.

Then, when it started to become clear midway through the series (with Moridin, Osan'gar, Aran'gar, Cyndane... am I forgetting anyone?) that every Forsaken that got killed was just brought back to life, I gave up keeping count, because it seemed like Rand was overmatched. A hopelessness set in. How can you possibly win the battle, let alone the war, if your enemies can never really be killed? Looking back, I find this to be a highly effective way to create narrative tension. I mean, we all know (and when we first read the series, we knew) that Rand would *probably* win in the end... but when the Dark One starts bringing everybody back to life, your brain scrambles to guess/imagine *how* Rand can possibly outwit/outmuscle/outfight the Dark One.

I do not think this lowers the stakes at all. Bringing good guys back to life would lower the stakes; but, bringing bad guys back only creates more obstacles for our heroes, which I think heightens the tension, and keeps readers/viewers guessing how our protagonists can possibly defeat Death itself.

Moreover, if the Dark One can only bring back 1 person, then Rand's continual slaying of successive Forsaken really does become a 1-by-1 checklist to victory. Simply slay enough of the Forsaken, one at a time, and then the Last Battle will be a cake-walk. Whereas having them constantly resurrected makes it feel more like Rand is trying to bale water out of a sinking boat... and that growing desperation is such a powerful motivating factor for the self-sacrificial mindset he carries with him going into the Last Battle, finally realizing that even the seemingly-almighty Forsaken are just little pawns on the board, and he needs to go straight for the Dark One himself.

Do not tie one of the Dark One's hands behind his back. Make him every bit as powerful/terrifying as he is in the books; make his reach as wide and as far, to the very grave itself and back again, and you will set up Rand & Co. for a truly memorable heroic journey.

(As far as figuring allotments of screen time for 13 Forsaken plus their reincarnated selves, that is another story... but I do think it can be done. Just don't put the spotlight on them all. Allow some to work largely in the shadows--they might end up being even scarier that way.)

As a longtime fan of the books, I am beyond excited for this show. Love the casting; I think Rafe, for the most part, says all the right things; locations look great; budget is encouraging. Knowing it is an *adaptation*, I am prepared for and willing to embrace necessary changes, and even some unnecessary ones. We can't have everything we want! The only thing that tamps down my enthusiasm is this lingering doubt regarding what Brandon Sanderson may have been referring to when he bluntly said that the show contains at least one big change that he, for one, was not too thrilled about. (I forget his exact words, but I think I am interpreting his claim fairly.) I have a lot of respect for Brandon as an author (his Writing Excuses podcast makes it quite clear he knows his craft inside and out) which makes me wonder all the more, what could he be referring to? And is it is necessarily a change to Book 1 / Season 1, or has he seen Rafe's outlines for future seasons, as well?

I know a lot of people have speculated about this; I am curious what all of your thoughts are, now that production is as far along as it is (and now that we know Min is alive and well), not only as to what the big, bad change may be, but how much it might impact your enjoyment of the final product?

The most likely theories I have come across (or made up) which I am merely speculating may have been *serious* enough to warrant Brandon's comments include:

- Adding a bunch of modern-day swearing. (I just have a hunch that Sanderson would find this distasteful, especially when Jordan explicitly chose not to write one, single modern day cuss in a multi-million-word series. That was so clearly a deliberate choice, I think this would really not sit well with the man who was tapped to finish the books for the one who first created them.)

- Changing the whole Eye of the World / Greenman / Forsaken / Tarwin's Gap showdown at the end. (Although, if I had to guess, I would think that if Rafe had well thought-out reasons to do this, that Brandon would not have made such a strong comment, even if he disagreed with Rafe's exact rationale.)

- Making Moiraine's and Thom's romance more 'telegraphed' from the beginning.

- Changing Min's gender identity dynamic.

- Cutting Gawyn altogether, or combining him with Galad. (I know a lot of people have posted on other forum boards about this, and whether or not it makes sense from a show-running standpoint, I can see Brandon, as an author himself who got to write both Gawyn's and Galad's final scenes, feel strongly that there was a relevant place for both to be included in the show.)

- Drastic changes to the World of Dreams. (If for no other reason than it may be difficult to incorporate such a nebulous realm on an 8-episode TV show, especially when, looking down the line, T'a'R plays such a major role in future books.)

Some theories I think would be less likely to have evinced such a strong reaction from Sanderson include:

- Cutting the Trakands from Season 1. 

- Beefing up Logain's backstory and overall presence in Season 1. (I can't imagine Sanderson being disappointed by this.)

- Nudity. (I don't know Sanderson's personal feeling on this topic, but it cannot be denied that there is a lot of implied nudity in the books. Although he may feel that shoehorning it into Season 1 just to catch some of that 'Game of Thrones' buzz would be distasteful.)

- Cutting 2nd tier characters, like Hurin, as some people in other posts have suggested. (Just doesn't strike me as major enough to elicit Brandon's comment.)

- Cutting the Voice of the Creator from the ending. (Who knows, just wondering!?)

So, any thoughts? I probably shouldn't dwell on this, but it is like someone going to a see a movie, coming out, and telling you the film was absolutely amazing... except for one key part. Kind of steals the spotlight, so to speak.