3 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

I mean, if you even have to ask then there's no point breaking it down for you, in large part because I would just be repeating stuff I've said a dozen times already on this forum. 

 

Priorities for this first season should have been as follows: 

1. Develop Rand as a character. With such limited screen time available, he should have been the primary focus. 

2. Make Mat, Perrin, Egwene, and Nynaeve interesting without hogging screen time. Sow seeds for development in future seasons while still ensuring they are likeable. 

3. Present relevant worldbuilding information in short, well executed scenes (such as the trio singing the Manetheren song! That was good!) and through environmental details. 

4. Sell the audience on the struggle against the Dark One and the threat of the Dragon which is going to be the long term plot of the show. 

5. Don't try to remake the wheel (pun intended). If the books did something right, and that would work in television, keep it. 

... 

194. Make sure the audience understands the Warder/Aes Sedai bond. 

First of all, don't pull the "If I have to explain it then there's no point."  It's a nonsense argument.

In regard to your priorities.

1: Rand needs to be developed WITH the other characters because Moraine doesn't know who the Dragon is.  For the record, he's shown he's a loyal friend, cool under pressure, wants a simple small life, is naturally a peacemaker and leader when he chooses to be, we've also seen hints of his particular hang up with women.  Could you share what you think is missing?

2: Make them interesting without hogging screentime?  What  you want Mat to be a non-entity for the entire first season and Perrin and Egwene to not get their arcs?

3: The trio singing Manetheren is a scene that non-book fans have complained about several times as being an info dump instead of good world building.  On the other hand, the Kerene and Stepin stuff did build the world, even if it could have been a bit shorter.

4: Pretty sure we sold the threat of the Dark One with the Trolloc raid and the Fade, then again with Dana being a villain out of nowhere proving you can't even trust people.  Logain shows the threat of the dragon quite well.  

5: Such as?  Your opinion is not fact, but be happy to discuss actual points.

Then you put the Warder Bond as "194" despite insisting that we need world building as #3.  The Warder bond is a significant part of the world and important to the plot overall.

Honestly, I don't get the level of arrogance it takes to demand to know "How did Harriet allow this travesty?"  Or the accusation of implication that she's "selling out for money."  (Haven't seen the second one here to my knowledge, but it's a common thread on various places).

I get if a person doesn't like the series, or feels it changes too much.  There's things I really wish they hadn't done, even if I understand exactly why they did them.  But the idea that one's personal opinion is so "Right" that clearly any dissenting opinion is a sign of a person's failure or shallowness is just beyond me.

For better or worse, Harriet is on board.  She's one of the best editors in the industry and she's seen the layout for the show.  That's enough for me to say "The show will be fine and the story will be told."  But even if I was on the other side of the fence and the assorted changes were too much, I'd just not watch.

21 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

The book just kinda mentions over and over again that the Bond is important and that Warders go crazy when their Aes Sedai die. Then, like a miracle, when Moiraine dies our brains do their job and we immediately understand the stakes. Almost like we're intelligent people capable of making connections. 

 

RJ trusted his readers. The WoT show thinks we're stupid. 

Actually, I wrote off the bond as a major issue until way later when we actually see Warders snap.

I knew the bond was magical.  I knew Moraine did something, but I genuinely read it at the time as her knowing Lan would just march on the Blight if he wasn't tied to her so she tied him to Myrelle because she felt Nynaeve wasn't ready.  

You can't tell me that at book 5 alone you knew how severe the bond was.  Because we had never seen it.

Moraine allowed a ton of deaths in the flight from the Two Rivers, we just don't see them.

Sure the Trollocs left Emond's Field since their target was moving, but Tarren Ferry?  I imagine the place got a fair bit of harm once the river was blocked.

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I have no problems with katas/forms.  But the ones they showed did not show any power or speed - or awesomeness!  Performing katas would have been a great time to show how great warders are with their weapons without the chance of injuring another actor.

Except Kata are about training muscle memory, not "Power and speed".  I've never done a form fast or rapidly, it just doesn't serve a purpose.  I do it at half speed over and over to train the motion to myself.

49 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

I seem to remember one shot of Loial that showed his feet and it appeared he was wearing 6 inch lifts.   My wife joked about Herman Munster shoes.   And she was surprised when I told her he was supposed to be an entirely different species too.   She just didn't see it, except for the hands. 

Not a great shot, but couldn't find the other I had seen.  But yeah, shoes are a bit lifted.  And the perspective makes him seem a bit smaller, but in reality he's about a head above Perrin.

19 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Are you saying that such a thing should have been done in the book?

I'll say it should have been.  Not that exact scene, but the ramifications of the bond should have come up better.

As is, in book 2 Moraine gives a small info dump, but it reads like she knows he'll march to the Blight if she dies, not like the bond will drive him to death.

Then Book 5 happens and he stoicly walks away with no real explanation...

It's not until book...  11? (Is it 11, first real time I remember is Elayne and Vandene being captured  by BA)..  That we really see what the bond does.  It's so poorly explained that when they did a d20 RPG book for WoT with RJ's approval around book 7 the bond is completely fabricated for the game because they didn't know what it did exactly.

So yes, having it shown up front how severe the bond is is important.

2 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

Nevertheless at the end don’t we also learn that these heroes…

  Hide contents

would never fight for the dark even if they blew the horn? wasn’t it a misconception in-world? So, they fight when called against evil. (Which is technically a reveal after the last battle.) 

 

As a fun aside to this.  Here is a fundamental ideal held as 100% factual in universe by the characters turned to be completely false.

Seems a perfectly sound example and gives some credence to the idea that maybe in universe perspectives are not 100% factual.

8 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

It could have been done in the first five minutes of the episode.  It was heavy handed, hitting the audience over the head with the idea for an entire episode,  and wasted a LOT of time that could have been used furthering the story.   As a writer, you have to trust your audience to see things sometimes and not bludgeon them with a point you want to make to the point almost of parody. 

That's a fine line (as I mention in other threads).

I can come up easily with two examples of the Author trying to trust the audience and not bludgeon them and the result is a bunch of people claiming Lan has been made incompetent.

Like the idea that Lan isn't a badass fighters and is an incompetent tracker in Episode 2.  If you look at the details, Lan clearly rode away and slaughtered trollocs, coming back with barely a scratch and that he found the White Cloaks and came back with plenty of time for Moraine to decide how she wanted to procede.

But no one says that specifically.  Instead we have Lan coming back with progressively growing scrapes and cuts but no real injury.  Then we have the scene change in the WC prep to show passage of time and movement.  

 

15 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Assuming this is correct, I still don't feel it's worth the better part of one out of eight episodes.  Poor use of time and resources.

 

Aes Sedai dies in the Logain battle.  Nynave finds warder dead via suicide walking through the garden later in the episode and Moraine (in front of a TOO STONY FACED Lan) explains the highs and lows of the bond.  Lan gives Nynave a meaningful, yet STONY FACED look.

Done.

 

And we disagree on this point (Time spent), which is fine.  

If we're being fair, I don't feel it's justified to have Stepin commit Suicide.  Warders aren't supposed to suffer grief and be unable to continue, they become single mindedly focused on taking out the thing that killed their sister.  Personally I would have kept the time but had him try to take out Logain and regrettably have to be killed by the Tower Guard.

I also don't feel it was the "Better part"  While I would have liked more time with some other things we saw Mat getting worse, we saw Loial, we saw the first appearance  of Goldeneyes.

15 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

...The writing room won't be able to redo the story and keep from massive plot holes and inconsistencies.  

Can you share any of those at this time for discussion?

56 minutes ago, Deviations said:

It's just not relevant at this point in the story.  Did they think people wouldn't watch if they followed Jordan's pacing (proportionally with the amount of time allowed)?

Yes.  100% yes.

If they don't really focus on the Warder Bond up front then it risks people assuming Lan just works with Moraine and then when the Bond issues start coming up (Lan and Moraine, Rand and various) it could easily come out of left field and leave people going "What's with the Deus Ex to write Lan out for a while?" 

It's Chekov's Gun vs Diablus Ex Machina.

Easy example is Fire Emblem Three Houses.  Your main character is a Chronomancer who can rewind time at will.  At the end of Chapter 9 out of nowhere someone gets stabbed in the back and killed, you rewind and move to stop them only for another villain we haven't seen to show up magically out of nowhere, thwart you and somehow prevent you from just rewinding time again because... reasons.

Now, if they had established this character's power set earlier, if they had had them stop your chronomancy before to show he could, it would be sensible.

4 hours ago, grayavatar said:

Found some footage of Lan fighting

https://i.imgur.com/QZfMTN1.mp4

 

More efficiency of movement and less flailing around is what I expect from warders.

While Geralt's moves are okay....  The fight commits a major sin of movie fights.  The enemies conveniently move up one at a time so that Geralt's twirling and back spins never get him murdered.

The reality is, the Crossbow would have been reloaded and shot twice before he gets to the guy and the at least 2-3 would be rushing him at a time if not more.  

7 hours ago, Bruan said:

I can’t honestly say it’s and adaptation. It is more of a re-write. Rather than doing the best they can to recreate Jordan’s work in film, it feels to me more like “Hi, I’m Rafe, I’ll be your DM. Let’s all roll up a character loosely based on your favorite wheel of time character and we’ll play a campaign I thought up based on the novels.”

Which is great as your opinion, but it's also over the top and ignores what's actually there.  No sense in debating again, it's been debated elsewhere.  Characters aren't actually changed, core plot isn't actually changed.

For what it's worth, RJ2 said the first book is the one with the most changes because it's the most unlike the rest of the series and wanders in weird ways compared to the rest of the narrative.

There's also another thing I noticed...  Rafe is falling into a similar trap that Guillermo del Tory fell into with Pacific Rim.  When you show, don't tell, you're relying on the audience to pick up nuance.  When the audience fails it leads to issues.

Prime example is one of the "Lan's not bad ass enough" things going on.  People want to see proof of how awesome he is, but when it's there, if it's subtle, people ignore it.

In EotW in the flight from the Two Rivers it constantly draws our attention to Lan riding away from the others, coming back with wounds and blood, then riding out again.  If you rewatch episode 2, you see him having a growing collection of small wounds throughout the episode.  

In the books, this is in text and draws our eyes because you have to describe it in a lot of words.  In the visual medium we show him going out alone, coming back with minor injuries.  That has the same ramifications as the book, but because it doesn't specifically go "Look at this!"  So many people missed it.

This can be for benefit too.  Rand in Episode 3 definitely channels against the door.  But visually it's only the slightest warping of the air around him instead of drawn out process we see with Moraine or Logain.  We see a similar smaller warping with Egwene earlier, so the hints are laid out.  But I noticed that Book fans knew exactly what they were looking at where as new to the series fans often missed it.  

All in all, visual means you can show not tell a LOT but there's such a razor line balancing act to that.

4 minutes ago, Joe B said:

Twenty years in the Air Force here. From my experience, show all the emotion you want, as long as you can do your job.

 

With that said, you will still be considered a cry baby. At least in the "real" Air Force.

First things's first, your personal experience trumps my knowing other people, just so no one thinks that argument is happening.

But let me ask (And this is based on some of my closest friends and family being airforce, marine and army, as well as my working for a company that specifically caters to the armed forces).  Being emotional all over the place would catch flack, but being emotional in a specific setting where everyone was agreeing to talk?

I've known people who were super stoic most of the time, but put them in a weekly meeting where they're specifically going over their issues and it's another story.

The only super emotive Lan I've seen is the funeral situation.  I don't think that's enough to claim he's over emotive all th etime.

6 minutes ago, Samwell Tarly said:

I just always thought people discovered that everything is less miserable when instead of technology infrastructure is depending on One Power, so the civilization changed to the unrecognizable state. 

Generally it fits with the upscale of technology.  Sociology shows that more resources and technology don't make people less greedy or scummy.  But they make it a point where the greedy and scummy can amass their wealth without stepping as badly on the little guy.

Look at today and how many people think everything is fine with a few people having all the wealth.  If you asked in a vacuum they probably wouldn't be fine.  But if they have a solid home, and enough to eat and can provide for their kids, they're not really likely to put as much concern on how powerful someone else is.

So, say in the next thousand years someone discovers the one power.  Initially I imagine there'd be an arms race and some rather horrific events.  But over time access to the ability to heal any injury, to push construction through without significant concern or effort?  The ability to adjust weather patterns to prevent major disasters and ensure crops are always reliable?

That'd slowly lead to a utopia.  Utopia lasts long enough and violence would slowly fade away.  Not that it happens at all but just the idea of items specifically for war.

15 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

No, I'm saying an experienced soldier like Lan turning into an emotional cry baby because a fellow solider died is unrealistic and a sign of how little the writers understand real soldiers. Lan and his fellow warders are used to death in this world, the idea that one of them dying when the job carries the expectation of it happening and that it would immediately affect them like this makes no sense.

 

There's a difference in being able to show emotion in a way that fits the character and making the character so emotional that it's laughable. They've gone far to far with Lan.

Ah, the "Real soldiers don't..."  nonsense.

As someone who serves the military, knows a lot of soldiers and has watched what they go through and worked with them.  You're full of it.  Yes, some are stoic and blank, others aren't.  And if you think Lan showing emotion in a specific instance as part of a ritual is too far, I have to come to the conclusion that you don't have any experience with real soldiers.

49 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Tam - Lost to a single Trolloc.

Lan - Bad horseman, generally incompetent, bizarrely emotional for an old soldier.

Mat - Steals from people he knows, doesn't charge into battle yelling in the old tongue.

Perrin - So incompetent he killed his wife, didn't even touch any of the Whitecloaks (Egwene did that for him).

Rand - Has virtually no character, runs screaming from small women, is a non entity in this story.

You're looking for excuses to be offended.

Tam: Dealt multiple wounds to a trolloc after not having held that sword for at least 18 years (Rand never knew it existed).  I hate to break this to you, my muscle memory for martial arts is garbage after 10 years of not doing it.  It's realistic, not emasculating.

Lan: Had one bad horse experience others tease him about, Super confident if you actually pay attention, Emotes during a specific ritual where he's supposed to.

Mat: I've said this before.  We don't see him before the Shadar Logoth incident.  Then in book 3 he's suddenly a master gambler and sleight of hand/juggler artist.  He got those skills somewhere and it wasn't in one month with Thom.

Perrin: Not incompetent, raged and reacted with no combat training, didn't murder people, oh no...

Rand: Showed coolness under fire firing arrows at the trolloc that attacked him and Tam, stands up to Moraine, protects Mat, de-escalates the situation with the Grinwells...   Oh, and the "runs from a woman"  Can you tell me at what point in the books Rand is willing to harm a woman?  Cause I remember it happening.... once... And it nearly broke him.

Nothing you're seeing is actually there, you seem to be expecting them to be macho emotionless destroyers marching through armies and they weren't that in book one.  They were never the macho emotionless thing at all.

On 12/3/2021 at 8:46 PM, Harad the White said:

The Amazon series seems to point in that direction. In the Book, are you referring to the main male channelers, such as those in the BT, not the Forsaken? Being the martyrs of the Aiel is indicative, but does not directly speak to their character. Nevertheless, I'd like to believe it.

Seanchan Kill on Sight, Seafolk tie ballast stoines to them and throw them overboard.   Sharans keep them as mindless animals for breeding, Aiel send them on suicide missions against the Blight (Where we learn something worse happens).

All in all, cutting them off from the thing that drives them to madness and destruction and then letting them have a chance IS the kindest of the options seen.

2 hours ago, Mailman said:

Because of using the Flame and Void or the Oneness the fights should flow more than what is practical in the reality of actual master swordsmanship. I believe they would be more similar to the Anakin/Obi-Wan duel than anything else i can think of.

That's just it, the Anakin/Obi-Wan duel is flashy nonsense.  All the Prequel Lightsabre fights are.  Rewatch Duel of Fates.  Obi-Wan and Maul die inside of a minute if you don't deliberately ignore openings to be flashy.

Using the Flame and the Void is a real thing (It's not been called that prior to WoT to my knowledge but the idea of emptying your mind is not new).  An actual fight between master swordsmen usually involves lack of motion until someone's dead all of a sudden.  

2 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

But Lan was never about flashy. 

Some of the descriptions from the dreaded books were based upon actual kata forms. "River undercuts the bank" is drop to knee, pivot and swords swings to the side...remembered this in Kill Bill when the Bride took the legs from the lieutenant of the Crazy 88. 

Yeah, Kill Bill flashes it up, it's not pure kenjutsu.  Also, you can make a proper form sound poetic and cool on page.  In practice it's boring.  It's like comparing Professional Wrestling to an MMA fight.  One has pomp and theatrics and big leaps and swings.  MMA has some feints then it goes to the ground and then it's two people who half the time look like they're just laying their hugging unless you know what you're watching.

1 minute ago, RhienneAgain said:

I meant that Lan has an aloofness and detachment from other characters (apart from Moiraine). That's missing in the show. Seeing him having a fun evening round the campfire laughing and joking with the othe Warders doesn't seem true to his character to me. Moiraine describes Lan's character as thinking "he was secure, imprisoned in his fortress by fate and his own wishes, but slowly, patiently, the creepers were tearing down the walls to bare the man within." He doesn't come across to me in the show like that at all.

We don't see details, but when he meets up with Jaem (Another Warder) in book 2 it's very like him and Stepin.  He also seems to get along well with Elayne's Warder.

7 minutes ago, Tim said:

The complaint about Lan seeming so comfortable and not-apart around other warders is interesting: I agree with it to the extent that it would not have been how I would have imagined Lan interacting with other warders, but on the other hand I'm struggling to recall any scenes prior to Moiraine's departure where we did see him interact (or, more to the point, not interact) with other warders in any substantive way? The only time I can think of offhand is when Moiraine and Lan stay with Vandene and Adelas, and even then there's not enough shown to draw conclusions I think?

You are correct and he got along very well with Jaem and was a "Bad influence" on him, reminding him of being a swordsman.

He and Jaem together also got along with Elayne's warder and were all fairly chummy once that part of the plot starts going too.  It's in fact a point that while various sisters are completely unsure how to respond to Elayne's Warder, Lan, Jaem and the others just accept them as one of the group no questions.

This topic came up in tangent with Lan's portrayal and I thought it warranted it's own discussion. 

What do you want to see from weapon skills and battles?  Wheel of Time sets up the imagery for some epic weapon fights.  The way blademasters move is portrayed almost like poetry.  The whirling and spinning of staves gets brought up too.

This will be harder to portray than we think if we don't want a very limited set of weapons, and as episode 4 shows us, they aren't doing that.

The sword forms and the way a blademaster works in Wheel of Time is very evocative of Kenjutsu and its attendant styles.  It's based on the Katana, though it works with any single edged, gentle curving blades.  But will that mean we have to only use katana in one form or another?  What about a dualist with a rapier who is a master of their art?  Or what about a Blademaster in Shienar or Saldaea where we have deliberate leans to greatsword and kukri style weaponry?  Movements with those weapons are VERY different from what Lan and Rand Learn.

Similarly The Ashandarei often gets relegated to a whirling staff that happens to have a sword on the end.  But naginata technique is a very different animal.

So far I have been pleased to see the variety shown but I have seen areas for concern.  The Kenjutsu styled movements from Lan are fairly solid, and I love Ivhon being a speed archer.  But Maksim... Spear is all well and good but we kept cutting to a shield on his arm.  He's not wielding a one handed spear, he fights with it like you would a glaive or naginata, so I'm curious if we'll see the shield drop, or if they just are forcing incompatible tools together.

9 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

In the books, Lan is so perfectly described by his Aiel title - Aan'Allein, the man alone. In the show he's portrayed as just 'one of the lads' around the campfire with the other warders. The other characters aren't remotely intimidated by him. There's no sense in any character's interactions with him that they have any respect for him or his skills.

The thing is, the Aiel call him that in reverence to Malkier and from their experience with him in the Aiel war where he wasn't a Warder.

As a Warder, to some extent, he IS one of the lads around the campfire.  Sure he's a better swordsman than Stepin, but I get the feeling Stepin is probably a better rider.  This take on Ivhon is a better archer.  They're all ridiculously well trained and competent.

You can't put someone in a room of contemporaries and expect them to shine.  Reminds me of the hilarity of Vault 76 in Fallout (Where every member of the Vault was an overachiever of one form or another).  Or for a WoT comparinson; Spoiler about a main character below.