23 hours ago, 2RiversFan said:

What I forgot to add to my theory above that I think we will also get Tam's fever dreams that were cut (deliberately) from Ep 1.  The two scenes would go immensely well back to back, or they could show Tam's fever dream at some other point in Ep. 8

I need to amend this, since I have just noticed on IMDB WoT that Michael McElhatton is listed as being in Ep 7 "The Dark Along the Ways".

So it seems we'll get his fever dreams at that point... my guess is that it will be simply Rand having this memory (flashback) or dreaming the memory.  If it is a waking memory, then this is when the show is bringing attention outright to him being the DR.  If it was a dreaming memory, then they'd still be able to play it as a mis-direction or simply as another candidate among the EF'ers to be the DR.

TBH I'm a bit surprised they're using it in EP 7 instead of EP 8.

Thanks for posting, but this isn't a new trailer.  This is actually the preview for Ep. 5.

1 hour ago, Beidomon said:

 

If by Dragonmount scene you mean The Prologue, then I can get behind this. I hope it happens.

 

I'm not sure how they do the birth scene as a flashback because that would be Tam's flashback. So I guess it'll be a dream or something. Or maybe it'll be Rand having a flashback of Tam's flashback? A flashback within a flashback?!

I do mean the prologue, the creation of Dragonmount.

What I forgot to add to my theory above that I think we will also get Tam's fever dreams that were cut (deliberately) from Ep 1.  The two scenes would go immensely well back to back, or they could show Tam's fever dream at some other point in Ep. 8

https://www.wotseries.com/2021/11/24/reddit-ama-with-rafe-judkins/

Q: Is there a particular reason you chose to exclude what Tam says to Rand during his fever dream? Or why you didn’t show Rand traveling back to town from their farm after the attack?
A: Did we?

2 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

He's speaking of the books not the show.

Oh right.  After rereading it I see that now - my bad... And Apologies @flinn

8 minutes ago, flinn said:

I am still convinced we will see the prologue, but it will be later as maybe a dream when Rand first starts having memories.

I think that the Dragonmount scene will be the start of Ep. 8.  My theory it will be very close to the way it appears in book, but it is going to be the intro to Rand being the DR.

7 minutes ago, flinn said:

 Logain should be stronger than Nynaeve. When she healed him he was toying with her, flexing but not attacking her shield. He knew that if he broke her shield he would be screwed.

You're mixing Nyneave with someone else - either Moiraine or Liandrin??  

Nyneave never attempted to shield him.  Her entire use of the power was to heal with many different threads.

6 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

I have an image of some character in some famous fantasy (?) movie branding his arms by holding some metal artifact over a brazier. Due to incipient alzenheimers ?, can't remember. Anybody with intact brain cells?

That's been in two different series/movies if my memory serves.

The first was a single season of "Kung Fu" from the 70s: 

The other I can't recall right now... but I'm likely to remember it as soon as I hit "submit" button ?

26 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

The wolves will attack the White Cloaks, setting up Perrin, Eggs & Aram to escape. Aram splits off from Eggs & Perrin to return to the Tinkers, finding their wagons burnt down and almost everyone dead.

Agree most of what you've said in your post is likely, but this portion regarding most of Raen's and Ila's troop (??) is too early... that occurred in tSR.  If they do it this early...

Also: 
 

28 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Tar Valon with Logain, whence Mat see's Logain in the cage and Nynaeve.

I'm pretty sure you mean Rand, not Mat.  It will be interesting if they have kept Logain as someone that has the Talent for seeing Ta'veren... If he sees Rand as someone "as bright as the Sun"... it will play back to the scene in Ep. 4 (even if for a different reason).

Nothing in that link for me yet, but I may buy my daughter a hoodie...

Birgitte asking Mat: "Which language are we going to speak, Hornblower?"

That is one of the funniest scenes in all of WoT.  It will get cut most likely if they cut the Tylin thing... but they could also easily fit it in somewhere else - as long as the set it up nicely.

Of course, the follow-on where Nyneave and Elayne are forced to apologize to Mat due to Birgitte's badgering... that is also comedy gold.

44 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

*Note* Even the Dark One likes cuddles.

Come now, Caddy... we have zero evidence of that from the books.  Greandel?  Sure.  Lanfear? Likely.  Many other male forsaken? Yes. (although ALL of them in very creepy ways).

But the Dark One, all evidence points to the contrary.  I'm thinking of Demandred's visit to the Pit of Doom.

10 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

Changes to positioning of the heron and the gem in the dagger for example are for camera purposes.

 

Hard to get shots of a heron or a gem when its hidden by the hand(s) gripping said blade.

To be sure, the hilt had a heron, and then another was etched into the blade near the base/cross guard.

Perhaps it is as you say, but not having it on the hilt (handle/grip) makes it very difficult for Rand to be branded, as is supposed to happen per the Karatheon Cycle.

The stills of the sword show the hilt, and the heron there is absent.

14 minutes ago, Sabio said:

I forget her name (The white who manipulated Elaida)

Alviarin Freidhen.

http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/a/index.html is very useful for these types of questions... but I do NOT recommend it for anyone that hasn't finished the entire series, since it has every spoiler imaginable in there.

Edited for the spoiler warning

1 hour ago, Agitel said:

Nynaeve's hair was also flying upward super saiyan style so I don't know. The trivia built into the show says they can't see each other weaves. Moiraine says she can't see men's weaves. Whatever was happening with Logain could be explained away if they wanted to. They could say "Nynaeve's weaving was untrained and unfocused and she also wove visible light and air" or something.

I liked the scene of Nyneaves' power, but I do find it troubling that Logain (I have always and still have an issue with his name rhyming with Rogain... since the first time I read EotW) apparently saw something when Nyneave had her Moment of Awesome (trademark to Leigh Butler).  I am waiting for upcoming episodes to explain that better.

The show also hasn't done a good job of explaining that non-channellers can't see the weaves.  I don't think we've had any scene that has explained it EXPLICITLY.  The closest we've had is Thom's "he threw the knife without using his hands" bit.  

I'm watching the show with a non-book reader who hasn't picked up on the fact yet.  If they take too long to explain that, they will later be called out for ret-conning the lore/canon.

1 minute ago, Sir_Charrid said:

This is a frustration for me regarding the 5th dragon, if Egwene has been aged up to match the boys then I understand her wondering if it could be 1 of the 4 based on age (although in the books it narrows them down to a few weeks). Her and Lan even talk about Logain being too old, although it wasn't Morraine who said there could be one of 5, it was the darkfriend, so maybe word has simply got out that 5 ran from Emonds field? 

I'm pretty sure that ONLY the darkfriend Dana has said that it can be "one of the 5 of you".  Moiraine said 4 in episode one, and hasn't backtracked or changed that to my memory.

This fits with the way it is treated in the books (to a degree).  The Dark One was behind the "knowledge curve" compared to Moiraine.

40 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

52 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

She does though because he's a very strong male channeler, stronger than any women can be,

How would Moiraine know this? How much experience does she have with male channelers? How often has she had to compare between a very strong woman and a man? How would she know that men are generally stronger in the power?

 

Would the Reds even know? We know that as the Wheel begins to turn to the next age, the strength and prevalence of channelers begins to increase. I honestly don't know what point you're trying to make - I haven't followed this chain closely. But these arguments are just navel gazing.

Actually, yes the Reds and Moiraine would know to a relative degree.  There are numerous descriptions in books discussing how Saidar wielders and Saidin wielders can sense the strength of the opposite when in direct conflict with each other.

Think about Rand/Egwene/Elayne in the Stone (Chapter 7 of tSR).  Egwene and Elayne are shocked at Rand's strength.

But having said that, I don't think the show has painted itself in a corner.  The depictions in the show can be explained by things that haven't been revealed or thought through completely at this point.  I think we're seeing similarities here in the shows journey that are very similar to things that RJ himself dealt with during his interviews.  Many people are finding faults (canon mistakes, etc) where there were none, and would try to call him out.  Just check out many of the interviews on Theoryland.  https://www.theoryland.com/wheel-of-time-interview-search.php

5 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Having a huge power burst from Nyn is actually the best way to develop her character and explain her block. It removes the "Mary Sue" problem by establishing - immediately and memorably - that Nynaeve has access to a huge amount of power. 

 

Obviously, she is going to be the subject of a great deal of interest from the Aes Sedai since she had this massive power burst in front of multiple Aes Sedai. This interest provides a logical basis for explaining her block - she is unable to channel on command. She is unable to channel consistently. It becomes the launching point for the first of Nynaeve's major character arcs.

 

Doing it the other way (overcoming the block before understanding Nyn's power level) is both harder from a writing standpoint - the block is going to require lots of exposition and the creation of scenes and situations that call for such exposition - and more in danger of making Nynaeve's eventual accomplishments feel unearned. 

 

Now - knowing viscerally that Nynaeve is incredibly powerful - her inability to access that power becomes relatable. Her struggles to access her power will hit harder emotionally.

My problem with the show's depiction isn't the huge burst of power scene and the mis-direction that she may be the DR.  The fact that she healed multiple people at once is only a minor departure from the books... she merely split her weaves.  Even though nowhere in the books does it show this occurring, and in fact the book descriptions make it appear that each wound requires a slightly different weave.  The shows depiction is ok with me.  Nyneave IS that powerful and is shown on multiple occasions to be capable of things no Aes Sedai thought were possible.  It is also fitting that it occurred in front of Logain.

The fact that none of the Aes Sedai were looking at her all googly eyed before that burst of healing is what I'm disliking.  They should be able to tell at a glance just how strong she is.
 

4 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Everyone can have their own theory though. I'm going to be waiting for popcorn when people realize that the changes they think are only being implied to keep the DR mystery going are actually real changes that will affect the entire series.

I'm not one that would accept a change as big as this at all.  If it were to happen, I would denounce this adaptation and join my voice with all of the rest of the naysayers.

But quite simply, I don't believe that is going to happen.  In fact, I think you and many of the others who are against/dislike/hate the show have fallen away due to the mis-directions that are aimed at non-book readers.
 

• Rafe stated on multiple occasions that they want to play up the mystery of who is the DR. 
  • I suspect (like most of us) that this was done to gather and capture a wider audience for the show.  Societies all around the Globe are different today than in the time when RJ (Robert Jordan, not Rafe Judkins) wrote.  People in general are much more sensitive to gender issues than in the 80's and 90's.  As an aside, it could be argued that RJs work contributed to the changing consciousness of societies, even considering that a very small proportion of the world population as a whole have read WoT.  He certainly brought it to the forefront for the  SF/Fantasy genre.
  • Playing up the mystery of who is the DR is also something that I (personally) think is sort of disingenuous, because I believe that RJ didn't write EotW to have his reader's trying to guess who the DR is, since it's made clear in Tam's 'fever dreams' exactly who the DR is.  He wrote EotW trying to convey that none of the characters knew who it may have been (among the ONLY three possibilities of Mat, Perrin, and Rand) until he is fully revealed at the Eye. 
  • However, that the show DID make this a thing is not so bad.  Aside from bringing in and holding people that are FOR all of the changes that have occurred between the 90's and now, it is also true to RJ himself - in so far as RJ used mystery, mis-direction, and red herrings in many of his plotlines (Who killed Asmodean??? is one example).
• It is also important to note that Moiraine herself has only ever stated there are 4 possibilities among the Emond's Fielders for who can be the DR.  Presumably, this is due to the strict age limitation of Gitara Moroso's Foretelling of the DR's birth.  (perhaps they've increased Egwene's age to be the same as the boys? To my knowledge, they haven't pinned Egwenes age exactly). 
  • Only the Darkfriend Dana has mentioned that there are 5 possiblities.   This is consistent with the books in that the Dark One doesn't know of Gitara's Foretelling, and none of the Black Ajah ever found out about it either (if memory serves correctly).
• Rafe also answered two very relevant questions in the Reddit Q&A  https://www.wotseries.com/2021/11/24/reddit-ama-with-rafe-judkins/
  • Q: Can you please tell us what was the motivation to change the book-lore of channeling being linked with the soul? As we are seeing a Saidar channeler being a potential Dragon, do you think it won’t have a massive butterfly effect on the story going forward?
    A: WAFO
  • Q: As I am sure you have seen a lot of fans of the books have had concerns about some changes, as I am sure you would have expected. However, a main one seems to be that a woman can be the dragon. Why was this change made if the Dragon is going to be the same anyway as it changes a lot in the world Jordan created e.g. the dragon if a woman can be trained by other woman in the tower etc, or touch Callandor.
    A: The change we made was not just with the fact that a woman could be the Dragon, the core change we made was that people are NOT 100% convinced that these 3000 year old prophecies are 100% accurate. I think it feels a little bit more true to the world, and you see the characters questioning the prophecies of the Dragon and the details of it much more in the show than in the books (although there are some scenes in the books that show this as well, we’ve just expanded on that). It seems quite trusting for the Aes Sedai, who trust no one, and especially Moiraine, who trusts less than no one, to believe with 100% certainty ANYTHING that was written thousands of years ago

With those answers, I'm much more willing to watch the show and at minimum give it this first season before deciding to continue supporting it.

3 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

4 hours ago, LordyLord said:

Is Episode 8 revealed to be calles Eye of the world?I have seen many say so?

Yes it is.

Where??

It certainly makes sense that Ep. 8 will be "The Eye of the World"... (I think it will be titled as such) but it isn't verified by the link you provided.

Something that I love about all of this... it's clear from the title of Ep. 7 that logically we're getting 1 book per show season, and NOT getting multiple books crammed into each show season... at least for this season.  This makes me very happy.  

I'm not saying that they haven't included any parts of tGH, tDR, or New Spring since they clearly have.   I am hoping that the trim a LOT of the fat from the middle books, such as the bowl of the winds and the Andorran succession plot lines... among a few others.

3 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Pretty sure Mandarb eats Mashadar for breakfast to be fair. 

Mandarb is the Chuck Norris of horses in the WoT-verse... but he does bow down to Bela, who he recognizes as the Creator's avatar.

1 hour ago, Harad the White said:

OK. Thom chooses between Rand and Matt due to a lot of important stuff off-screen. That's a get-out-of-logic card.

I don't think it was off screen, even if off screen things may have further enhanced his view.  

Here is what we know or should infer:

- Thom heard Dana's monologue about how the Dark One was looking for one of the "5", and that one of them is the DR (it is interesting that only the dark side has included 5 - presumably including Nyneave... Moiraine in show has only mentioned "4").
- When Thom first relates the story of Owyn, he explicitly says that "None of us knew or understood what had caused the changes in him, until he threw a rock without moving his arm".  

These two things show us that Thom had his senses on high alert due to understanding that darkfriends are on the lookout for the DR.  He then notices many similarities between Owyn and Mat and concludes that Mat can channel.

I think it is TOTALLY believable.

I'm with you regarding Logain being manipulated by Forsaken, but not on this one.  The show casts believable and logical misdirection toward Mat being the DR.  It may have been more powerful and understandable had Alex Villaume been able to join the cast from Episode 1 and had more screen time to establish his (Thom's) brilliance.

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

Yes. It was decidedly mediocre. One good acting performance (Ben Barnes). A few okay ones. Poorly developed lore, bad episode continuity, cringy romance. And not all critics reacted better to it.

Agree with this.

The only reason I watched it was because I have a 14 yr old daughter and things like this keep us having things to do together.  I read the Shadow and Bone books (first trilogy) after watching the series... not because the series inspired me to, but I thought that the source material is typically better.  Unfortunately, the book trilogy suffers from some pretty bad writing.  My daughter tells me that the writing in second duology gets much better, so maybe they are.

Back to the topic of this thread, after re-watching Episode 4 I am now somewhere between 'Like' and 'Love' for the Amazon show.  I now understand much more about the choices they've made that diverge from the book events, and I don't believe that any of the changes are due to changing the canon on anything that matters.  
- Only the characters think that the DR can be anything other than a man; this is due to those with partial knowledge of history aren't trusting the sources from which they learned history.  (Moiraine is knowledgeable - likely more than most, but only to an extent.)  In other words, there is no Herid Fel level of knowledge, at least yet, and Moiraines' knowledge has been toned down somewhat compared to the books.
- Saidar and Saidin still work the same way in the show as the do in the books (Origin story "Saidar, Saidin, and Stone released in Amazon app this week helps dispel the rumors/angst that they'd changed that).

Final note is that Rafe's Q&A from reddit https://www.wotseries.com/2021/11/24/reddit-ama-with-rafe-judkins/ gives me all the rest of the reassurance I needed to believe that the show is headed in the right direction.

Now it just needs to keep trending upward from the standpoint of the points above.

13 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

Also the Green Rider series by Kristin Britain.

 

Wow, thanks for reminding me of that series.  I've read the first 2 or 3 of those books, then forgot to look for any newer installments.  I'll have to remedy that. 

2 hours ago, Harad the White said:

The next thing you read is a theory. When Logain is confronting the King of Ghealdan, Elusha Salid whispers sweet nothings in his ear. This is Lanfear, according to a theory, which is mine. Similarly the "old man" running with the first FD in the series is a strong channeler in a different form.

So I've been meaning to respond to your theory, but didn't have time to fully think it through until now:

I thought at first it is plausible and a good theory - and it may still be.  But after deeper reflection, I think if this is where the show took this, then they'll have a lot of tap-dancing to do later on.  If Elusha Salid turns out to be Lanfear, then she can only be doing this from a "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" angle. 
Lanfear KNOWS that Logain isn't Lews Therin reborn (by book Canon).  So if she were to be the one whispering into Logain's inner ear, then:
 

1. They released here from her imprisonment earlier than the books (not really a big deal)
2. She either won't be portrayed as knowing Lews Therin's soul at all (HORRIBLE idea), or she will simply be trying to sow chaos (not as bad of an idea, and has some good merits as it introduces her character to audiences in a somewhat subtle / misdirection sort of way).
3. It also adds confusion to non-book reading show watchers, because now she has to add a new moniker to: Lanfear, Selene, Mierin Eronaile, Daughter of the Night, and "Moon<something(fang??)> that Hopper and the wolves call her.

Overall, if they do it right it could be a good addition / departure from the books in my opinion.

I've been trying to get 15 year old daughter to read WoT for about 4 years now.  She never got past chapter 4 of EotW even though she's a voracious reader.  She likes the show.  Her mother (my ex) loves the show and can't wait for more episodes.