32 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Legally, they can't use what's in the Silmarillion.

 

  

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Galadriel?so=search
https://lotr.fandom.com/I wiki/Gil-galad?so=search

From the above, it looks like she's only a a hundred and nineteen years older than Gil-Galad.
Show wise, we know she's from the 1st age. Very hard to tell how old elves are in relation to each other.

If anything, the show is highlighting the class division within elves. There's a particular scene where Elrond is informed he can't go to a meeting because it's only for "Elf Lords"... And even though Elrond is significantly younger than Galadriel, he's basically ordering he around. My only assumption is that lineage, nobility, and age come second to who's the current "lord" and in "power".

 

Yeah I mean Gil-Galad is notoriously hard to pin down in terms of lineage and age. He could be very close to her, or he could be a fair bit younger. All depends on what version is relied on.

I find it kinda funny that Elrond or Galadriel would not be considered highest class. She’s the daughter of the high king of all Noldors in Valinor, and married to Celebrimbor who was a Lord amongst the Sindar, fairly closely related to Thingol I believe.

And no one has a lineage of the pedigree of Elrond. Dude is descended from Fingolfin, Thingol, all three great houses of the Edain, he even has angelic lineage from Melian. I mean he’s the son of freaking Earendil. Only ones who one up him are his own children. Of course depending on when in the second age the story is taking plane (and whether it’s overall chronology still holds in the first place), Elrond is anywhere from very young to going on 3000 years. Impossible to know with how they’re dealing with time in the show, but I guess he’s being portrayed as young here.

I never got the debate about Egwene not being taveren. Being some of importance, making a difference, holding positions of power, or just being special isn't what makes a taveren. Taverens are specific tools of the pattern, who are only taveren while pattern needs them to be. They're a corrective mechanism allowing the patter to nudge (or shove) events in the direction it requires. If it was just about being powerful or influential, taveren would be a common occurence but they're not they're very rare.

All kinds of character came down special abilities not just Egwene: Nynveave, Elayne, Aviendha, Logain, Flinn, hell even freaking Fager Neald. And outside of channellers Mat started sprouting old tongue and Perrin was one of the first wolf brother's in seemingly forever (we only know of two others). It's the end of an age, tha pattern is handing out all kinds of gimmicks.

Her nomination as Amyrlin is only bizarre when looked at from Egwene's perspective. Once you see it from the Aes Sedai's perspecitve it makes plenty of sense (unlike say the nonsensical dealmaking of the Sea folk with Rand and Mat). The White Tower wanted a puppet ruler and a scapegoat for when the whole schism got resolved. Egwene was the perfect candidate for that, especially considering her link to Rand. Puppet rulers were a pretty common thing, there's nothing abnormal about it.

Egwene wasn't a taveren because the pattern didn't need her to be one, that's all there is to it. I find that rather interesting considering her role in the White Tower and the White Tower's role in the Last battle. I tend to think Egwene and several others were necessary to make sure the victory in the Last Battle was not a pyrrhic one. Without her, how many more would have died? Would Demandred have been victorious. Quite possibly? But perhaps that's not the pattern's concern. 

Also with Saidin being tainted, it made sense for there to be a metaphorical balancing by the pattern selecting 3 boys as taveren. The scales were tilting too hard one way. Of course as others have said the show is being aimed at a female public to a certain extent, so they may have been wary of that, and then you add in the fact that she and Nyneave were included in the Dragon mystery (which is a whole other issue) and they probably will simly dumb down being Taveren to simply being an important person around who weird shit happens. That still requires weird shit to happen around Egwene and in my opinion it simply doesn't in the books.

I'll still miss the whole tripod importance of Rand, Mat, Perrin (although hopefully it still appears to a certain extent), but as long as I can obliterate that stupid "rumours of taveren in the Two Rivers" line, I'll get over it.

1 hour ago, JyP said:

and a Young Adult Protagonist Which Is Right Against Her

Haven't watched the show, but that seems rather silly considering Galadriel is, I believe, older (possibly considerably so) than Gil Galad. Depending on the version of him she's his aunt, his father's cousin, or most likely his great aunt. She's like 2000-5000 years old in the second age if I'm not mistaken, hardly a youth even for an elf.

I tend to agree that if RoP does well, than thats better for WoT. Of course WoT is gonna have to stand on it's own legs regardless.

I can barely muster up interest to start watching shows so I'm certainly not one to hesitate walking away from one. Which is weird because I'm the total opposite when it comes to books. WoT is probably the first series in a very long time that I've actually planned to watch before it came out.

Wonder what he means by Rand acts childish in book 2. 
 

He doesn’t want to be used, and he doesn’t want to be treated by a Lord because he feels he isn’t one, and he definitely doesn’t want to acknowledge that’s he’s the Dragon Reborn.

None of that seems very childish to me. He’s a guy in his late teens he’s obviously not gonna be ready or accepting of what the world is throwing at him.

I don't know about stealing anyone's thunder or anything. I think the battle sucked but didn't have anything to do with the women being there instead of Rand.

That said I think comparing what Rand does to what other people do is problematic. As the Dragon Reborn and the strongest taveren, and the wall between him and LTT starting to fall in tSR at the latest, he pulls off stuff aboslutely no channeller as a right to untrained. He really shouldn't be used as a baseline for what an untrained channeller is capable of. 

Wait. Nyneave did stuff which was a bit silly yes, but what in the world did Egwene do channelling wise? She threw the smallest bit of fire ever at Valda and then was used as a battery by Amalisa. Sure she shouldn't be able to link at this point really, but that's pretty minor to be honest.

8 hours ago, Skipp said:

On the topic of how powerful Nynaeve is.  A member of the Lezbi Nerdy discord mentioned that they just read a passage about Nynaeve's strength in tDR. After getting Mat back to the tower for healing Egwene and Nynaeve are brought to the room to witness the process.  Nynaeve feels she could only wield half of the amount of power that a circle of 10 Aes Sedai with 1 Sa'angreal could wield.

 

That is our new measurement   (10 Aes Sedai Circle + 1 Sa'angreal) = .5Nynaeves

 

Of course a circle of 10 Aes Sedai isn't as strong as 10 individual Aes Sedai.  Does anyone remember the conversion tables for circles lol?

Concerning Nyneave’s thoughts on her strength:

Quote

 

GREEBS

Ask what the deal is with Nynaeve being able to hold half the power as ten sisters with a sa'angreal but not being able to handle two pussy little Black Ajah by herself. 

ROBERT JORDAN

Some people have shielding talents.

QUESTION (LATER)

This is similar to Greebs' question, but from a slightly different angle: How much stronger do you have to be to forcibly shield someone else who is already holding the One Power? Is it different for men than for women, or for heterosexual shielding? If the answer is only a little stronger, then ask him how come Nynaeve couldn't shield Elayne in A Crown of Swords, Chapter 21 (Swovan Night)? Also, how much weaker can you be and still be able to hold a shield on someone, Berowin excepted?

ROBERT JORDAN

He did not use a "real scale" for One Power stuff. You just have to be stronger. Mostly handwaving. Consider the Kin. The woman who is very weak but has a real Talent for shielding.

FOOTNOTE—TEREZ

On the second answer: RJ indicated in Sweden in 1995 that he does use a 21-graded scale to keep track of channeler strength.

The first answer appears to be an Aes Sedai answer (avoiding the question). The real answer (at least, the answer that is consistent with the rest of the books) is that RJ probably used a bit of hyperbole in the scene where Mat was Healed in The Dragon Reborn (or rather, Nynaeve did, and she even caught herself...but RJ wrote it in such a way that left room for doubt whether she was amazed at her arrogance or at her potential strength).

The woman with the shielding talent, at least as far as we were shown in A Crown of Swords, was in the Kin (Berowin), and not one of those holding Nynaeve when they went after the Bowl (Falion, who got away, and Ispan, whom they captured). They were linked, and they waited until Elayne went upstairs with most of the Kin, then caught Nynaeve off-guard while she wasn't already holding the Power, and they (rightly) believed the remaining Kin wouldn't interfere. (Erica noted when I interrogated her about this report that these were all quick questions which he answered while signing books, so he was probably too distracted to explain properly—all indications are that he truly enjoyed explaining such things when he had the leisure to do so, and that he also would have gladly admitted to the hyperbole so long as he had time to address the rest.)

I think one of RJ's main points in that scene was that Mat, not being able to see the weaves, wouldn't have any idea what was going on, and therefore neither should we, really. RJ even called our attention to this phenomenon in the battle between Moghedien and Nynaeve at the end of The Shadow Rising:

 

16 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

And without even looking or being even aware of dozens of people being injured(let alone what injuries) with her main focus of rage being elsewhere?

 

Seems unlikely don’t you think?

Yes that's why I said it's over the top. Should Nyneave probably have been able to do that there? No not really. But it doesn't bother me too much because it fits with her strength (healing), and her character (repressed emotions that come to the fore in powerful moments). So I can accept it based on that and a little rule of cool, even though yes its not quite right and by the books.

Later on though when she shows more control in the ways I think that's not so great. She shouldn't have the control necessary for it, and it would have been a nice moment to let Moiraine shine. I think part of the reason it's there is to remind people that hey she could be the dragon. Still lame though in my opinion.

2 minutes ago, ashi said:

Meh, it's an indication that they let what is possible be defined by what some cool scene that someone wants to write requires, rather than writing scenes that fit an established framework.

 

Sadly not uncommon in Hollywood, but also arguably one of the things that diminished the later seasons of GoT (not to speak of season 8), though (at least to me) it is much worse when it is done to characters.

Stictly speaking I believe there is an exemple in the books of someone being healed without touch. It was brought up when this episode aired. Actually Ishamael heals LTT without touching him as well, although that's the True Power so you could argue that doesn't count.

I think the scene is probably over the top in terms of showing Nyneave's healing ability, but I don't mind since it perfectly fits Nyneave channelling from a deeply emotional place. She's shown in the books to channel instinctively at various times (balefire being the most prominent exemple).

Later exemples such as in the ways against machin sin were unecessary to me. Moiraine should have handled that like in the books in my opinion.

18 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

And that may be a problem.  It may be difficult to accept / seen as too easy (for those that didn't read thousands of words to get to the Battle at Maradon) that Rand has become so powerful.  Not to mention that he apparently gives off a spiritual light that causes darkfriends to claw their eyes out.

 

And for those who are upset at the level of power/control demonstrated by the five at Tarwin's Gap, I have dredged up this old thread https://dragonmount.com/forums/topic/59591-why-did-rj-turn-the-channeling-system-on-its-head/ where the same criticisms are levelled at RJ, eg:

 

.

with some of the excuses being considerably more imaginative than any yet given in this thread:

 

 

Not only had the argument regarding the end of the rigorous magic system been made before, it has been levelled at the author of that system.  Time to untwist our knickers, I think.

Technically, it's almost certainly Sanderson who wrote the battle of Maradon no? So not exactly the author of the system, but still criticism of the books yes.

4 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

This is why Nynaeve really should have suffered her block in episode 8, because Nynaeve's block (to me) was always about her being angry, not emotional. In the show they seemed to be going that way too, as she screams in anger in episode 4 and has a pissed off look in ep 7 vs Machin Shin. Having a block in episode 8 would have called back to episode 1 where she wasn't able to channel to save the old man, as she was scared - not angry. Her walking out and being able to open herself to be linked, and then just standing there to be used as a conduit, meant there was no actual arc to her season. Imagine a situation where they don't actually change anything (not my first choice!) but Amalisa is shouting at Nynaeve to open herself and she can't, and she watches in horror as the Trollocs approach. Maybe as a result of Amalisa being distracted trying to get her to open up, someone dies/the Trollocs break through. *Something* that she feels responsible for because she couldn't control her channeling. 

 

It's really disappointing but I am still optimistic that what they were doing in the first 6 episodes was solid enough that we will get a good S2. I know there are many that dislike the show as a whole though, this is just my POV - episode 8 was awful but I really enjoyed everything up to that. I really think episode 8 suffered from all of the COVID nonsense and Mat not being there, and unfortunately they were not good enough as writers to adjust their initial plans to still make a great finale. At least that's what I think happened.

I'm guessing that the source of Nyneave's block will be ptsd from her near death in episode 8. Which to be fair I would quite like since it gives a very clear and real explanation to her inability to open up to saidar. The last time she opened up, that happened.

I like her block in the books but the whole anger was always a bit weird to me with regards to saidar. Why would being angry help her surrender to saidar? Never made much sense to me.

On Dragonmount at least I don't think I've seen any posts claiming the tv show is superior to the book. Not as a whole mind you, individual or isolated aspect probably some do believe so.

I can't say I've read every single post, but I've probably read the large majority.

Elsewhere like Reddit or Twitter? Yeah probably. 

6 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

 

Literally this site is full of people defending literally everything you could point out.

 

I mean that's kinda the point of a nuanced discussion no? Weighing the pros and cons, what worked, what didn't. It's far more interesting to discuss the merit of various choices the show made than write the whole thing off.

Sure we could just go "It's all shit!". But that would be pretty damn boring. Besides you and plenty others who hate the show are still here discussing it with some who love it and what is probably the vast majority who are somewhere in the middle.

Kinda made me think of Angkor Wat. Athough the towers are thinner and taller.

12 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

So I have a special thread on my phone for WoT stories.    After reading the thoughtful interviews and the puff jobs paid for by Amazon, I was wondering if anybody has compiled a list of those reviewers that are suspected of being Amazon PR shills.  I read one last night where the person said there were 19 books in the series.

Well I mean clearly there are: 14 + New Spring + the Strike at Shayol Ghul + River of Souls + BWBOBA + Wheel of Time Companion. See, 19.

5 hours ago, Skipp said:

 

I just finished watching Lezbi Nerdy's tier ranking of the changes and she brought up an interesting thought on what you mentioned.  By having linking no longer having a buffer it now becomes very dangerous to those linked.  Particularly to those not in control of the link.  That certainly brings down the power of linking overall. 

 

Maybe they will introduce that adding a Man to the circle prevents burning out but I personally don't think they will make it that complicated.

Wouldn’t really fix the imbalance between saidin and saidar anyway. But like I said I’m starting to think they won’t bother with going too much into detail  anyway (which is a shame considering how important the magic system is).

I do wonder if they'll be allowing men to link together if there is no longer the strength/dexterity dynamic. If they don't then that's a rather obvious issue concerning the balance between saidin and saidar.

That and the reason women were thought to be needed for LTT's plan is because of their ability to create circles and their greater dexterity. So again if men can create circles, the whole Fateful Concord loses its importance.

Honestly though I mainly expect them to just handwave it and not be very specific with the power. If they don't explain well enough there will no doubt be gripes about men being "more powerful" despite the balancing mechanics. So they probably won't bother.

I don’t really mind reading a predictable plot, it can be comforting. Also I hadn’t read that much else when I did so it wasn’t an issue anyway.

10 hours ago, AdamA said:

Agelessness is obviously out, since it never made sense to begin with. Someone who stops aging at 30 just continues to look 30, not "ageless." It only ever worked in a book because Jordan could rely on your imagination filling in something that is physically not possible.

 

Those aren’t actually the same thing. Channellers “slow” which causes them to look young for much longer then they normally would.

The agelessness is caused by the oaths, although how you would portray that I have no idea.

20 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

For precision: they were pillow friends dreaming of marrying a man capable to love a woman with great power.

 

But i don't mind they in this turn they decided to change this, i only mind that we had to suffer a full episode on this made up subplot with cringey scenes of oath-swearing (a 4th oath!!)

Yeah I was fine with this, it adds a layer to their relationship.

Although I do think it’s a shame to lose Moiraine’s “married to her quest” aspect, where she has no room for anything else.

Removing Caemyn is one of those things that are inevitable unless you have literally unlimited funds. It basically isn't seen again (other than one or two quick chapters, and I think those are pretty much just the palace), until the end of book 5.

By contrast Tar Valon is relevant throughout just about the whole series, and as such it makes certain sense to have it stand in for Caemlyn. Losing the throne room scene sucks but I find it an unerstandable sacrifice.

I do find it interesting that people think Mat and Perrin lost the most because of the DR mystery. To me it's Egwene and Perrin.

Egwene has been very much a non entity to me in the show. What sets her apart in the book is the fact that she alone chooses to leave the Two Rivers. Robbing her of that autonomy to instead grant her greater prominence from the get go really caused her character to suffer in my opinion. Worse, unlike Mat and Perrin nothing really special happens to her in the 1st book or in 1st season, so she ends up in the same situation just along for the ride but here she doesn't even chose to do so.

Personally I think both introducing the DR mystery, and also spending so much time with minor characters (who quickly die off no less) was an awfully greedy choice by them.

2 hours ago, Kitchener said:

You could give Rafe and Amazon 100 episodes, and this series would still be utter garbage. The only thing similarity to Robert Jordan's amazing series is afew names, and that's where it ends.

And it is extremely disappointing to find that a web site, who owes its existence to this amazing series and it's author, is not more vocal and scathing of this atrocious series. 

If you want echo chambers on the internet where people will throw your own opinions right back at you, they exist, but that’s not this place.

1 hour ago, ArrylT said:

No idea how long this link will last - and will totally understand if Dragonmount deletes this post but here is (from twitter) a link to a really early script for Ep1

 

http://tvwriting.co.uk/tv_scripts/2021/Drama/Wheel_of_Time_1x01_-_Leavetaking.pdf

 

 

By far the greatest difference here is that Moiraine does not reveal that one of them is the Dragon Reborn.

40 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Did Lan have to be told by village girl Nynaeve how to track his own Aes Sedai? 

Did Egwene get to stab Valda while a terrified Rand runs away from a short woman? 

Was Lews Therin the Tamyrlin Seat? 

Was Agelmar respectful of Aes Sedai and also one of the Five Great Generals? 

Was Amalisa not a minor character of far less importance than her husband? 

Didn't Logain need 6 women to shield him in the books but in the show it's only 3? 

Does Loial open the Ways or is it Moiraine? 

Does Nynaeve have a block in the books? 

Are Warders treated as tools for sex in the books? (Okay, gotta expand on this because no one has mentioned it. But, like, in episode 4 there's those two gay warders who are lounging by the fire and then their Aes Sedai comes over and is all like, "Time for sex" and they just get up and go to service her. Can you freaking imagine if this scene was gender swapped??? Of course, "problematic" material often only goes one way.) 

 

Anyway, the list goes on and on and on. And the tragic irony is that these attempts to prop up the women actually totally backfire. The writers' desperate attempts to make them cool are so transparent as to be laughable and actually make the female characters seem somehow more pathetic than their book counterparts. 

No offence but half of these are wrong or just silly.

Rand has literally no combat experience whatsoever and he's faced with someone who has a sword to his throat and while he is unarmed you expect him to not run away?

Both Amalisa and Agelmar are very minor characters to be honest. 

Logain had 6 random women to shield him. Here he had 3 of the very strongest in the tower. And he still killed one.

No Moiraine opens the Ways not Loial.

Nyneave hasn't been shown to have a block yet and while I think they've probably gone over the top with what she can do her block will probably be cause by ptsd from episode 8. Which isn't a bad change to be honest.