The Black Tower, Taim, the bonded AS / Asha'Man, Demandred? is probably one of the most exciting plot lines outside the main arc left in the series... It ties together everything the Shadow has been trying to accomplish since Ishy died in the Stone.

Cannot wait!

So ToM is making us think that Mat will come to the rescue of Caemlyn and root out the shadow - but actually the Asha'man will be the ones to save the city.

Hmm, seems a bit familiar (Illian)...

Also, can the 13x13 be done with male channelers x myrdraal, or does it have to have females?

There's been a lot of talk about Taim being a "new" Forsaken (dreadlord). But what if Taim himself was turned via the 13x13 method? If that's the case, when would that have happened? Certainly before he joined Rand. Perhaps RIGHT before he joined Rand.

I'm not actually sure this has any bearing on the current state of the plot. He's serving the DO either way, but if he was turned, and is not serving willingly, then perhaps he could be turned back...? And if he can be turned back, then couldn't all the other Asha'Man? Imagine the full and complete strength of a united Black Tower saving Caemlyn, then joining the Last Battle.

Maybe that will be Nynaeve's next big discovery. Da**it what the heck am I going to do with myself when this series is over?!?!

This was exactly what I thought, wondering how to turn the 13x13d people back to the Light - that Nynaeve will figure it out. Or maybe Lanfear would share the information...

Only now did I realise that all those guys - i.e. Rand, Egwene etc - probably won't take part in the BT ultimate showdown. If so, there's a real glory awaiting Logain, and not only him! I hope to see Androl, Pevara and co. do something pretty awesome - epecially since they seem to be minority. I wonder what they intend to do... Therefore, if Taim is not simply Taim, he won't reveal his real identity there - or if he does, ho won't be defeated - as I don't see Logain facing Moridin, he's Rand's match obviously. So, maybe Taim's just Taim after all - a proxy at most. And, to fulfill Egwene's dream of Logain stepping over the Rand-like body, he could pose as Rand using the OP, as I saw someone suggest on the forums.

Well, they may still be fighitng as well, with Caemlyn burning in the meantime, thus still giving Rand and others from the FoM an opportunity to help.

That's what I'm implying. Since Bashere doesn't recognize him immediately, there must be something going on, besides the fact that he shaved his beard.

 

I think Taim is just Taim, turned by the 13x13 combo.

Yeah, this Bashere tip is important, but Taim has never shown such signs like Mezar has, has he? I mean, he has always acted in a normal, human manner, or have I misjudged him or overlooked some detail?

Perhaps the only other explanation for Bashere's confusion is Taim being Moridin after all, but I don't like the idea. Even if it was true and Rand was there to confront him, it just doesn't fit Egwene's dream and, therefore, Min's vision of Rand merging with the other guy and one of them dying - if Rand dies at some point in BT/Caemlyn events, it should be just him, Moridin staying alive (but of course this vision could be fulfilled later on, despite Rand's previous death, when they meet again and this time Moridin dies).

Summing up - I don't know... And this is exactly what the WoT is about and what makes me love it always more and more :)

So many ideas to respond to!

I think Androl and Pevera may join up with all the male channelers (not yet Asha Man) and Aes Sedai and create circles of overwhelming power. By the way, if Logain is to do something of glory, why not be the leader of a freakin amazing gigantic circle that can only be pushed to the limits with more and more aditions of male channelers?

As for the dreamspike, only certain people being allowed to travel in and out (those who hold the key) I believe it is similar to a password. Maybe there is a way to figure out what it is. If so Ishmael/Moridid would be the one to figure it out considering his philosophic background. Obviously someone has the key and planted the spike there. Likely Moridid since when he gave the other one to Grandeal he told her "I have found only one other and it is being used elsewhere." So we assume that this is his plan. Androl is exceptional with gateways so maybe he will develop a talent of understanding Ter'Angreal and figure out how to manipulate the spike. Oh yes, and the one in control of the spike can pick and chose who enters. Grandeal had an internal discussion of this very idea when Moridid first gave it to her. She considered the ability to set up her own kingdom of safety that could keep out other forsaken until Moridid mentioned that he "knew the key to this one."

I'm not exactly sure about the timeline I think some of it could be a little confused. I believed this man Rand gave the ability to would follow his instructions of remaining hidden but showing up on the doorstep with interest and would reconoiter for Rand possibly being of service to Logain (if he is there yet.) Personally, I think that Logain IS doing some recruiting and that he will find a truck load including the other boys from the Two Rivers that were left behind because of age. Logain being more practical than Rand has been until lately, I believe that he will realize that every boy who can pick up a blade must be trained for the LB in order to win. In this case, every boy who can channel must like wise be recruited and trained.

As to the timeline and whether the battle has been fought (and won) yet or not, I am unsure though I admit it is possible and we will read about it in the beginning of next book as another hop, skip and a jump in the timeline. If it has already been fought and the dreamspike is still active (why Rand cannot Travel there) the say the good guys do win... They may still not realize what is blocking the Traveling. Even if they do know what it is, they would not know the key unless it was extracted from someone of knowledge. So unless they knew enough of TAR (doubtful since we have heard of no training in that area within the BT) I doubt they would know to move the spike much less carry it to someplace such as Dragon Mount to throw in the fire and destroy it.

Next, I agree that Grady and Mat could have a possible play at events in the BT. That is assuming that Grady does not come back to the prescribed spot as planned everyday to pick up Mat and take him back to his army on the outskirts of Camelyn.... If this happens, obviously they will see events going on in the city and battle to take place right away before even thinking of the BT even if Grady does feel an immense battle taking place there. If he does, will Grady

(A) go to the BT to find out what is going on?

(B) find Perrin and Rand etc to request help at Camelyn or both battles?

The comment about Verin saying Taim may have to wait and her ability to divulge secret plans of the Shadow... We have seen that Verin is excellent in doing just that! what about her diligent research in finding so many Black Ajah Aes Sedai? What about her intelligent deducement of the possible Forsaken hiding within the White Tower? What other assumptions and conclusions were stored in those little books she handed to Egwene? We only heard about the reference to the two chapters stated above and the translation book.

My point being why do we assume she is wrong? Maybe Taim is the "other person" given the ability to Travel in and out of the Dream Spike's command? Would he not escape if he and his cronies faced utter defeat at the BT? Would he not then pose another problem to deal with during and possibly after the LB? Would he seek his own greatness in the LB or possibly hang around until things settle after his magnificent failure? If so, would he not then try to become the next Forsaken if the others were killed for good or re-sealed within the bore? That would certainly pose a problem that had to be dealt with after the conclusion of the LB as Verin predicted.

Metal Head, maybe you are right about Nynaeve's next discovery (how to turn the turned people back to normal.) But I do not think that Taim himself has been turned. If you pay attention to the description of the Asha Men at the BT that have been turned, they don't just seem different then their own normal, but different than the normality of any person. The "glazed look in the eyes," "smile that is a little off," "empty laughs." Taim has expressed plenty enough real (though evil) laughter and plenty enough real emotions. About Bashere not recognizing the man in Camelyn, if you recall, Bashere had never met the man personally before the war. And during the war especially with Taim channeling left and right, there is no way that Bashere could have possibly been close enough to Taim to have any clear recognition at a later time.

About Bashere not recognizing the man in Camelyn, if you recall, Bashere had never met the man personally before the war. And during the war especially with Taim channeling left and right, there is no way that Bashere could have possibly been close enough to Taim to have any clear recognition at a later time.

Good point here, thanks for that.

I like how almost every forum topic comes back to Taim, Demandred, or Slayer - but that's OK because it's all relavent.

The leading theory on Taim (which I really like) is that Demandred is in the Borderlands. He ordered 13 black ajah sisters in Saldaea to turn Taim to the shadow, and those 13 are now with the borderlander army in the south.

And for the record, I HATE the theory that Taim = Moridin. Ishy died at the end of tDR, and first appeared as Moridin in aCoS. Taim has been up and about for the past 15 years; we've seen him while Ishy was and wasn't dead.

I like how almost every forum topic comes back to Taim, Demandred, or Slayer - but that's OK because it's all relavent.

The leading theory on Taim (which I really like) is that Demandred is in the Borderlands. He ordered 13 black ajah sisters in Saldaea to turn Taim to the shadow, and those 13 are now with the borderlander army in the south.

And for the record, I HATE the theory that Taim = Moridin. Ishy died at the end of tDR, and first appeared as Moridin in aCoS. Taim has been up and about for the past 15 years; we've seen him while Ishy was and wasn't dead.

yea, taim is not moridin... however, i have heard theory that taim is actually ishameal's son... we know that ishy was able to get around before the releasing, and there are many physical similarities...

when people are turned, there are differences in how they look/act... taim doesnt have those... if someones turned, they become reckless, i wouldnt expect a turned, to become a darkfriend of any real authority...

and i believe that demandred is the king of murandy... he came from nowhere, and is close to the band... we havent seen much of him in either case...

I do not think that there is no need 13x13 method to turn Taim from light to shadow:)

Metal Head, on , said:

 

But what if Taim himself was turned via the 13x13 method?

 

That's what I'm implying. Since Bashere doesn't recognize him immediately, there must be something going on, besides the fact that he shaved his beard.

 

I think Taim is just Taim, turned by the 13x13 combo. As far as turning them back to the Light... I've heard theories that maybe the Ogier represent the Light the way Myrddraal represent the Shadow. 13 channelers and 13 Ogier? Maybe. Also, I think 13 male channelers would work just as well as women.

My guess is it would also involve a form of linking between them. Since men can't link unless there's a woman for every two (going by memory here) it would need to be women, or at most a mix of 4 men and 9 women.