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WoT If...Mat and Perrin Go to Shayol Ghul?


Mashiara Sedai

Welcome back to "WoT If?", Dragonmount's theory blog, and sorry for the delay. Since you've all been waiting, no doubt, with bated breath, let's jump right into today's topic: the three ta'veren, their connection to one another, and their purpose in the Last Battle.

 

Spoiler warning! This will include content from many books in the series, including Towers of Midnight, and speculation about A Memory of Light. Please read at your own risk.

 

Also, this WILL NOT contain spoilers from A Memory of Light's Prologue, Chapter 1, Chapter 2, or Chapter 11. Please refrain from posting any spoilers from A Memory of Light in the comments section. The A Memory of Light spoiler discussion board can be found here.

 

We know the fact that there are three ta'veren is significant. I think it shows that the Shadow is really strong and poised for victory during this Age. That is why the Wheel spun out the three together, to balance the evils within the world. And there are many threads connecting Rand, Mat, and Perrin together. They feel each others' need, they are able to see the others through an outside source with the swirling colors, and they have a similar sense of duty, knowing they must all be together during Tarmon Gai'don.

 

For the longest time, I've held the belief that Mat and Perrin would accompany Rand to Shayol Ghul, down into the mountain itself. There are a few pieces of evidence that support this theory, so I'll point them out quickly. First, three ta'veren together have more power than they do separately. Moiraine mentions this a couple of times in The Eye of the World. In this scene, she's speaking with Lord Agelmar, emphasizing why Rand, Mat, and Perrin must go to the Eye.

 

The Eye of the World

Chapter 47, "More Tales of the Wheel"

 

"Three ta'veren in one place are enough to change the life around them as surely as a whirlpool changes the path of a straw. When the place is the Eye of the World, the Pattern might weave even the Father of Lies into itself, and make him harmless again."

 

If three ta'veren can affect the Pattern around the Eye, and maybe weave the Dark One out, surely there's a greater chance of that if all three go to the Pit of Doom.

 

Another reason I think this is possible is because Mat and Perrin already have their functions for the Last Battle, and it will mirror their functions during the battle against the Seanchan in Falme. Mat and Perrin both fought, but not to the extent of being battle leaders. Mat sounded the Horn, Perrin held the Dragon Banner. During the Last Battle, they should have the same roles.

 

Naturally, there is some counter evidence to this too. The most obvious is the cover for A Memory of Light, which features Rand with Moiraine and Nynaeve going down into the Dark One's Bore. Of course, Mat and Perrin could be coming in right behind them.

 

Mat's battle reputation has increased significantly since Falme, so it may seem like a loss to the Light side if Mat doesn't help lead the battle. But there are still four of the Great Captains alive, plus Lan and the great Aiel leaders, and possibly even the Seanchan leaders—since all of them are considered to be like the Great Captains (Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 23, "Ornaments"). I don't think Mat's presence would be missed too much.

 

If it's not possible for Mat and Perrin to be there physically, let's look at this from a different angle. Maybe their pull on each other is what the colored swirls are all about. I looked through the interview pages, and all major questions in regards to the colors was met with a RAFO. Brandon Sanderson answered one: that the colors can't be seen in Tel'aran'rhiod, or in the land of the Finns.

 

We know very little about this part of their connection, only that it increases as the books progress and now they can actually see what the others are doing. Maybe this will be how they stay together, through their ta'veren link. If Mat and Perrin do stay outside, they could go into a trance, being connected with Rand, though not actually inside the Bore with him.

 

And what of them seeing each other? This is such a strange aspect of their abilities. As I mentioned earlier, when the colors swirl, they see the others through an outside source—not from the others' eyes, or even from another person in the room. It's like an out-of-body experience; they float in the space in front of the others. Whose eyes are they seeing through? Is it the Pattern that picks a spot from which to see? Is the Pattern that all-encompassing? The Pattern, the fabric of reality, should have access to every aspect within the world, right?

 

Let's look at the first time Mat actually sees an image with the colors:

 

Crossroads of Twilight

Chapter 3, "A Fan of Colors"

 

Whenever he thought of Rand or Perrin, colors swirled in his head. A part of being ta’veren, he supposed. This time, he had not thought of either of his friends, but the colors had suddenly been there, a fan of a thousand rainbows. This time, they had almost formed an image, a vague impression that might have been a man and a woman seated on the ground facing one another.

 

And here's a more recent one, from when Tam tells Perrin he needs to go with the Aes Sedai:

 

Towers of Midnight

Chapter 29, "A Terrible Feeling"

 

The colors swirled. Rand walked the hallways of the Stone of Tear. His expression was dark. Dangerous.

 

This implies that Perrin's vision is moving with Rand, like a tracking shot. Most of the time, they dismiss the images, making them go away. If they didn't, would they stay connected for longer lengths of time?

 

It's been answered by Robert Jordan that souls cannot be split, so the out-of-body experiences they are having doesn't suggest that they are part of the same soul, able to view another third of their body.

 

But I'm sure the swirls of colors is the key in some way to the Light's triumph over the Shadow. Perhaps that's the true meaning of the prophecy, "the three shall be as one" (The Gathering Storm, Chapter 48, "Reading the Commentary").

 

That's all for this edition. Join me next week for an examination of whether Perrin and Faile will survive the Last Battle. Thanks for reading!

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i have considered this... however, there is considerable evidence about rand and perrin being in TAR for the resealing... but there is no evidence that mat has even been there...

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The most interesting part of this to me is the "Three shall be as one" line. More foreshadowing that whatever the path to victory is, it MUST include the good guys working together toward the exact same goal. The bad guys will continue to try to divide and conquer. This is why Rand and Egwene MUST come to an understanding with each other. Rand cannot succeed the way that he needs to without the Aes Sedai behind him. Rand, Mat, and Perrin will be all at Shayol Ghul together, because it's the only way they can win.

 

I don't think the Dragon was ever meant to face the Dark One alone. He was meant to LEAD the world's struggle against the shadow. To win, the good guys must ALL fight, each according to their strengths. Unity is the Dark One's kryptonite. Unity builds and creates, while division and selfishness ultimately destroy. That, in my opinion, has always been the theme of the Wheel of Time.

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a very interesting question,let me start with mat:

mat is the perfect general for a conventional warfare,he is a brilliant strategist, brave(but not on point being suicidal) and lucky.

so if we are talking about open warfare,army vs army with or without channelers,mat is our man,so i don't see him going with rand to shayol ghul,,the battle between the do and rand will be anything but conventional

the role of perrin is more...problematic,i do believe(like mark)that part of battle

with the do will take place in tar,and perrin is the perfect dreamwalker/warrior

to assist rand there,but i have one big problem with that,perrin arrived with an

army of 100000 (actually,its a coalition of armies)at the field of merrilor,and i don't see anyone but him leading them,so i am still undecided about perrin.

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the only viable way that i can see the three being together for TG, is if it the horn is sounded, and TAR is brought "close" to reality, and perrin can dreamwalk in reality...

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@jack - I agree with you and mark that Perrin's battle (and likely OTHER battles as well) will take place in T'A'R, but I'm not too worried about who will command Perrin's armies in his stead. I would think it'd be obvious who would take over for Perrin if he becomes otherwise occupied: Davram Bashere. He's one of the five Great Captains, and he's been fighting shadowspawn all his life. If anything, he'd be more qualified than Perrin to lead that massive army.

 

And don't forget that Tam and Galad are also both blademasters, have held commands, and both have recent experience against large contingents of trollocs. Bashere still makes the most sense, but my point was just that Perrin has alternatives.

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@metal head.

i am not so sure about the alternatives to replace perrin's command.

look,i am not a great admirer of perrin,far from it actually,but for that certain

army he is the unifying factor.

davram bashere leads part of rand's army,galad is a whitecloak and that army

will never follow him,and tam is in the two rivers at the moment.

the most important factor is that it is a very bad strategy to replace one general with another on the eve of an army's greatest battle.

as i wrote before,i am still undecided about perrin's role in the last battle.

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I've always wanted the "3 shall be as 1" line to refer to Rand, Mat and Perrin as the 3 ta'veren. I'll be greatly disappointed if it's in fact the 3 powers or Callandor circle... They've been separate almost all the time, now it's time to finally do something awesome together. I like your idea, Mashiara, but could you assure me guys, cause I don't remember - they no longer need to think of the others in order to see them, right? Because if they needed to, there could occur a problem: how to stay focus on another 2 in the middle of the action? :)

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I don't really see the issue as either/or, with regard to what Perrin and Mat will do at the last battle. Maybe we are used to thinking of battles as unique, discrete military engagements; but all the discussion of the Last Battle that I can recall seems to indicate that it's more a series of engagements--or perhaps a variety of fronts at the same time, or a mix of those two possibilities. Consider: When Lan is seen riding into Tarwin's Gap, it's described as the beginning of the Last Battle. Surely it is not the entirety of Tarmon Gaidon. So, it's entirely possible that Mat, Perrin, and maybe even Rand himself will actually lead their armies into battle, before they actually get to Shayol Ghul. They can then enter the Bore when the time is right. It seems to satisfy all the evidence that way.

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@timewalkerauthor-the problem is err....timeline.

we already know that rand is going to issue a series of proclamations

concerning everyone in randland:rulers,countries,future relations etc.

assuming that he will convince everyone including egwene that breaking the remaining seals is the only way,his next move is to redeploy all the armies

from the field of merrilor to different combat zones,caemlyn,tarwin's gap etc.

on the same day(he said so himself) he will go to shayul ghul with his group.

so if he is going to send perrin and his army let's say to caemlyn,and on the

same time go to shayul ghul they cannot be together.

and what about mat?he is not even there,the last we saw of him,he was planning to go

to caemlyn.

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This would be a fine theory but there are certain already revealed things about AMOL that put it in very serious doubt. As you don't want AMOL spoilers here I can't say more.

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It's always the same group of folks that post on the theory blog. Man, I'm going to miss you, my fellow WoT nerds, when there are no more theories to uncork. If you all lived in the Frisco Bay, I'd suggest we should get together after we've all read AMoL and see who's theories were right.

 

It's close now. Just a couple more months... Mashiara, mark, jack, gwenifer... you guys are awesome!

 

Okay, enough with the love fest. Now let me tell you why you're all WRONG WRONG WRONG!

 

No just kidding! I agree with you guys almost all the time. And when we disagree, I love that too!

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@Metal Head and Gwennifer,

 

I have felt that the "three shall be as one" line to refers to the Rand/Lews Therin/Moridin situation. Since the crossing of the balefire streams, they have been connected, yet apart from each other. With Rand and Lews Therin complete now, Moridin must somehow be fully connected to Rand in AMoL.

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@Metal Head

Love fest? Haven't you seen this? ;)

Maybe we should start our own social group ;)

 

@Sunday

I don't think the Pattern has ever considered LTT separate from Rand, it was just Rand denying him.

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Just a thought... What if the "three must be one" line doesn't refer to individual people. I think it refers to the three ways the One Power was used in the Age of Legend. The "three" could be Saiden, Saider, and the song and dance thingie that the Aiel, Oger, and Green man did. The full strength of the One power along with the song and dance could be what's needed to "grow" the closure that helps to reseal the bore.

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Perrin's study of TAR has only recently started to crossover with Egwene and the wise ones... perhaps once they discuss it, a new front of attack can be opened... once Rand dies, perhaps he has to have them join him in TAR to finish sealing the bore... Or perhaps a group has to seal it in TAR at the same time as in the waking world, perhaps that is where Lews went wrong in the first place.. would allow Rand to be pulled out of TAR after his death.. how does Elayne, or the Throne of Andor, as seen in Elaida's vision work into this... Wonder if it is a coincidence or not that Matt is still in Camalot...

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I agree with Jack that the timeline might not work for Rand to fight off the Shadowspawn--and others things--before going to Shayol Ghul. I bet he's going to Travel as close as he can, skipping over the major battle in the Blight. I think it would be so fitting to have Rand, Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve, and Moiraine all going there together. It's the main group of characters to leave the Two Rivers (except Egwene) and it's implying everything's come full-circle. I think that's a reoccurring theme within Wheel of Time, so it fits.

 

There are so many ways the "three shall be as one" can be interpreted. I think it's kind of pointless to even speculate. But, if there's enough interest, I can look into that for a future blog. :)

 

Gwenifer, thanks so much for saying such kinds words about me (and the other posters)! *blushes* I tend to stay away from the MoL forum because I want to come up with my own ideas, not repeat what others are saying. So, thanks for pointing it out to us.

 

St. Rukos, Elaida's foretelling happened before Morgase took the throne, so the "Royal line of Andor" had to be referring to Tirgrane's line--or Luc's. I always thought it meant Rand. Though it could be Luc or Galad.

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I've always taken it to be Tigrane/Rand. Elaida definitely says that she attached herself to Morgase as soon as she became the frontrunner, which strongly implies that she just misunderstood her own foretelling. Actually, I've always been curious if she's going to get a sliver of redemption by having one of her foretellings actually turn out how she imagined them...But I'm not holding my breath.

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@gwenifer - Wow! I'm somebody's favorite something! That's a first! Thank you very much.

 

And don't sweat your English. It's better than most native speakers' English. I had no idea you were in Poland. You could not be further away from me if you tried. My species (over-fed, long-haired, hippie leaping gnomes) is native to California.

 

If we do start our own Social Group, it should be called the "WE WERE RIGHT AND EVERYONE ELSE WAS WRONG SO NYAH NYAH!" group.

 

@Mashiara, another way to look at that "Royal Line of Andor" Foretelling is that it could have been referring to Tigraine and Luc's mother, who was Queen at the time the Foretelling was made. That would cover Tigraine, Luc, Rand, and Galad, yes?

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Also, Elaida seems to have a history of misunderstanding her own Foretellings. Remember her Foretelling about the Black Tower? And how Sisters would "walk in its grounds?" She TOTALLY read that one wrong.

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@Metal Head - ;D (in general)

 

I always assumed the Foretelling referred to Rand. It could also be Luc and Galad, but I can't see how they alone can be the key to victory. Still, I hope that there's SOMETHING for Luc, that his unusual family connections will play a role somehow (please, at least let him reveal his identity to the others, not just get smashed by Perrin's hammer as a random evil guy! The secret of Rand's true parentage is enough and that I can deal with). The same with Galad - I want him to spend a nice family moment with Rand and maybe help him do something cool.

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@mashiara,

i have a suggestion for you,a week before the release date of a memory of light

open a special thread in your theory blog and let us write one prediction regarding the last book.

let's see if one of us(or more) has the talent of foretelling lol.

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Yeah, but this is a close-knit group. We want our own thread. You can't just have random fans making predictions all willy-nilly. That'll just lead to anarchy and chaos! We here on Mashiara's blog are professional WoT Theorists. And we've been doing this a while, but our days are numbered, since you know, story ending soon! Is it snobbish of me to be in favor of this? Yeah, probably.

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Jack, I'll make the thread a week before. I'll remind everyone to post there when it gets closer to time. I would be fun to have everyone's predictions in one place. :) On a similar note, I looked at a prediction file I made during the gap between Knife of Dreams and The Gathering Storm. Wow, some of the things I thought then were way off! I'm ready to make a new set of predictions.

 

I hope the end of the series isn't the end of the Theory Blog. I think I'll still have plenty of things to say, especially about the Hook.

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