I've never subscribed to the theory that Lan will die. I've always felt that he would live. So I agree completely with you on this, Mashiara. One of the quotes you brought up about Min's viewing:

"And...what was that vision that was suddenly hovering above Nynaeve's head? She was kneeling over someone's corpse in a posture of grief. The viewing was gone a moment later."

"...SOMEONE's corpse..." Hmm... "Someone's?" This could be anyone. Possible a woman? It could be Birgitte, who I think is a prime target for dying in AMoL, and Nynaeve would certainly feel that she is at least partly to blame, as she blamed herself for Birgitte being ripped out of T'a'R in the first place.

It could be Siuan, or Leane, or Perrin (if anyone still thinks he's going to die, I actually think he'll live), or anyone else that Nynaeve cares about. Could be Rand too. Heck, it could even be Moiraine. Nynaeve may not have liked her, but she knows what side Moiraine is on, and presumably will have a lot more respect for her once she finds out she's still alive. But I really don't think it's going to be Lan, for all the reasons that you mentioned here, Mashiara. And from a literary stand-point, I just don't think either author has really laid the ground-work for killing Lan. That's just how it "feels" to me.

But I guess we'll all find out in three more months!

I thought it was practially known that Lan is going to survive. Their is far too much evidence contrary to the popular view that he is going to die. Really that only comes from his nature and the sticky situation he was in when we last saw him.

id say that brigette has more images than rand, simply because she's spun out more often... rand is spun out what... once per age? mat is spun out almost immediately? perrin, i have no clue about... but brigette and gaidal have been spun out hundreds of times, through thousands of ages...

i really dont know who will die during the last book... i suspect brigette and perrin will... and we know rand will... tho, i cant foretell :( would make this all alot easier...

My first time posting but this is a favorite topic of mine. I agree Lan will live. I've always thought that the events in the test for accepted were alternate futures and we should be on the lookout for some of those events to come true. During Nynaeve's test for accepted she viewed herself as being Lan's wife with children. Combining that with Min's viewing about the Seven Towers and the babe I think it's pretty certain that both Lan and Nynaeve will survive to re-establish Malkier as a kingdom and have children.

I've always thought that the events in the test for accepted were alternate futures and we should be on the lookout for some of those events to come true.

actually, the rings that the accepted go through, work similar to TAR, beliefs of the person, forms the scenarios... they are not alternate futures... which is why nynaeve could alter the weaves of saidin, or re-open the exit, she didnt know that she couldnt.

nynaeve believed she wanted lans babies, and so, for the future ring, she had lans babies

and the AS testing terangreal, again similar to the rings, but the scenarios are chosen by those outside of the terangreal, not the one inside...

those events are not foretellings.

let's examine lan situation from a different angle,so forget about min's viewings:

the last we saw lan,he was charging light brigade style 12000 warriors strong

without channelers vs a shadowspawn army of 150000,so the odds are very much against him.

i am 100 percent sure that nynaeve will be one of the selected few to go with

rand to shayol ghul after his proclamations,so she not going to be anywhere

near tarwin's gap.

so everything boils down to one question:will rand send help in time?the most

obvious answer to this is the four armies of the north,but where are they?

did rand left them in far madding?did they come with him to the field of merrilor?

look,this gathering at the field of merrilor is sheer idiocy from a military point of

view,why concentrate so many armies(20+) in one place and leave so many

cities defenceless?and on top of it all,their best general,lord of luck himself is

not even there.

@jack theres another MASSIVE army that youre forgetting... thats already left for the blight... the one which twisted ones and neverborn fear... the wolves.

and yes, gathering all the worlds leaders (summoning the nine rods of dominion sound familliar?) is a strategically stupid idea...

@mashiara

TAR is a world which, that which you believe, is true... the rings mimic TAR in most respects... nynaeve was left out of most of the early discussions between egwene and moraine, so she skipped the parts in the discussions which moraine said that saidar and saidin are different, and from there, went to other aes sedai who taught her how to use it... as far as im aware, she wasnt told(or found out herself) that she cant feel saidin, until after her testing... she felt saidin's weaves while in the rings, simply because she didnt know that she couldnt...

i do believe nynaeve and lan are heros of the horn too, but thats unrelated in this instance... she had no memories while in the rings, she didnt have memories of all her past lives... i dont see how she would have known the saidin dectection weaves, letalone used them, without foreknowledge or mention of em...

as for egwene's testing, of being amerlyn, i would say that moraine had earlier said that she *could* become amerlyn, so the seed of thought had already been planted... so while it may appear as prophecy, its actually not... that this actually happened, yet not atall like in the rings only aids my perspective... she wasnt stripped of the stole, she wasnt pronouncing judgement over rand, she already knew which ajah she would join... its all in her mind, within the scenario to test her fears.

i believe the wolves are FAR more likely to save lans army, rather than rand or the WT...

What if Rand and Moridin concoct a scheme to kill the Dark One? Then we can have our Lord of the Rings happy ending where all the shadowspawn drop dead as the pockets of resistance are all about to be overwhelmed. Jeebus, I hope not, but it could happen.

@mashiara.

the white tower will save lan?really????don't hold your breath.

if you recall egwene knows about the shadowspawn invasion in the north

(tom,chapter 27),did she do something?she did nothing!!!!,did she save

maradon?again a resounding no,rand did.

egwene is too busy playing politics,she ordered many rulers and their armies

to come to the field of merrilor for her own agenda i.e to intimidate rand.

the white tower army is at the field of merrilor,like all the other armies,and like

many other cities,tar valon is defenceless,and ripe for a seanchan surprise

attack via gateways this time.

so my best bet is still the armies of the north.

I tend to agree with Jack. Egwene isn't the caring little girl from the Eye of the World, she is an Aes Sedai. People are just numbers, and the Tower is separate, and above all. They're allowed to feel shame, but not required to reconcile their blunders with the lowly masses. I wouldn't shed a tear if the Tower was turned to a rubble heap, and the Servants of all were required to do a little soul searching, and go back to their roots.

@mark

rand is not going to save lan,he is going to send help,his destination is

shayol ghul, for some small and overdue battle with the do.

@mark

rand is not going to save lan,he is going to send help,his destination is

shayol ghul, for some small and overdue battle with the do.

completely agree... rand is not going to tarwins gap... nor is perrin or mat... or the white tower for that matter... but perrin did say that the wolves were already heading north to the blight... THEY are the ones who will really take back malkier...

that much said, rand probably wont send help, he's got enough on his plate... but the wheel weaves the pattern, it already has set into motion to bring peace to the blight... with or without rands reinforcements

First of all, concerning Egwene and her testing and seeing herself as Amerlyn I think it is worth making sure people remember that she is a Dreamer, she may not have known how back then, but she still had that ability which MAY have altered what she saw, made it more, or even less true, there is also the fact that she had the ring dreaming ter angreal in the room as well, which again, may have altered how the testing rings work.

Now, as for Birgitte, I have a theory about how current link status to the Horn, the wheel of time is all about just that, the wheel, that everything has happened before, and everything will happen again, we know this is fact in the Wheel of Time universe, age lace and all that, but that is from the perspective of the characters, who live in the age, I speculate that maybe there is a larger pattern going on, not just that the ages are repeating, but other things are as well, like maybe the dark one will be destroyed at some point and be recreated at some later point. The point to this theory is that the Horn had to be created at some point, which means based on this theory, it would need to be destroyed at some point to be recreated.

Ok, I got a little off topic, the above theory aside I also think that the same is said for the heroes, they all have to have been linked to the horn at some point, what if the events to come in the last battle is Birgitte proving she is worthy of being linked. I would also like to point out that even before Birgitte was torn out, she did not remember her oldest lives, since there was so many and they where so long gone, so it is entirly possible that she has played out this before, or something like it.

Finally, since I dont usually post I would like to add one more thing. Why is this battle the one the Wheel of time focuses on, why this 'last battle' I have always viewed the struggle between the DO and the Creator as something of a chess match, both create their peices and try to win, it has been said that a win for the Light simply means another chance for the Dark in the next age, but what if this last battle, truely is to be just that, that maybe, finally the Creator has all the peices he needs in just the right spot for the first time since the moment of Creation to actually 'win'

Anyway, some off topic, some on, I have posted similar thoughts here before, somewhere a long time ago, but thought I would throw it all out there again, and I would like to also add my theories are usually always wrong :)

Just one persons ramblings :D

RJ said there was 7 ages in all... imo, the stories stay the same, but the characters keep changing :) if something exists in all 7 ages, it is neither created, nor destroyed in any... i believe there are only 2 items like that... the horn, and the dragons banner... the two items seem connected in a way most dont understand... nor do i see how either could have been created, tho that may be a lack of imagination...

and, ive never heard of anyone stop being one of the heros, but artur did say that the wheel does add to their number from time to time, so it is understandable that the heros also stop being heros at some time...

as far as the DO being destroyed, i believe that the DO will be destroyed in this age, and replaced with fain after the bore is repaired... but i spose ill have to wait 3 months to be proven right :D

I've always had this feeling that Gaidal Cain has already been spun out. In one of the books (Ican't remember which) Birgitte comments that she hadn't seen Gaidal around as much and she figured that he had been spun out again.

My thoery is that Gaidal Cain or his soul is Olver. Birgitte and Olver have a strange bond as if they have known each other for years.

Anyway just something to think about

I think Rand will send help north just because he said he would, didn't he? Let it even be wolves, if only he will become aware of that possibility, but the contrast between the Dark Rand - who would sacrifice his friend to win - and the new one must be shown - now he's not going to compromise and he would help friends, even if it doesn't seem reasonable from the military pov.

I find all those ter'angreal showing past, future, fears, beliefs, parallel universes or whatever very mysterious - one can never say for sure what it actually is they show. When pondering the nature of the girls' tests we can add one more factor: no Aes Sedai knows those ter'angreal intended purpose. I wonder what it had been used for.

@wolfgirl, it's been confirmed that Olver is not Gaidal.

Looking at the timeline for The Gathering Storm and Towers of Midnight, we see that it took Lan 100 days to ride from World's End, in Saldaea, to Tarwin's Gap, in Shienar. That's 100 days he's been apart from Nynaeve. That's more than three months, which would be plenty of time for Nynaeve to start showing if she was pregnant. We've seen her take the test for Aes Sedai, and know she swore on the Oath Rod; both things she wouldn't do if she was pregnant. So, I'm going to conclude that, at this point, Nynaeve is not pregnant.

Just wanted to point out, as a pregnant woman, that three months is not plenty of time for Nynaeve to start showing. Most women don't start showing until the fourth month, or later depending on her body type. However, three months is plenty of time for Nynaeve to figure out something is happening inside her body, like a pregnancy. :) And, no, she wouldn't have taken the test for Aes Sedai and would definitely not have sworn the Three Oaths knowing she was pregnant.

Going back to Nynaeve and the Accepted ter'angreal, I was always struck that Lan suggested he call Sharina Sedai to help Nynaeve because she seemed unwell. Nynaeve hadn't heard of Sharina until she met her as a novice in the rebels' camp, so I think the ter'angreal visions can't just be based on Nynaeve's deepest thoughts/ fears.

I've always had this feeling that Gaidal Cain has already been spun out. In one of the books (Ican't remember which) Birgitte comments that she hadn't seen Gaidal around as much and she figured that he had been spun out again.

 

My thoery is that Gaidal Cain or his soul is Olver. Birgitte and Olver have a strange bond as if they have known each other for years.

 

Anyway just something to think about

RJ has said that oliver is not gaidal... but yes, he has been spun out, the theory is that he is a child of one of the ashaman... i forget the exact quote, but the ashaman clearly described him as quite ugly... "face like a stump" comes to mind...

I do think it will be the wolves to save Lan's army, because Rand's busy wuth his politics and his army at Merrilor and Mat's still oblivious to the fact that Caemlyn's being attacked by trollocs. I'm just wondering how Elayne will react to the Caemlyn/Trolloc thing. AND I do remember that RJ said at one stage that Gaidal Cain wouldn't have a very major role to play in the story.

And one last thing - I think that Rand, Mat and Perrin will survive the whole thing, and Lan and Nynaeve. At least, I really hope those five survive. The rest - not to sound horrible - I don't mind so much. And what about Cadsuane? What'll happen to her?

:P

@lavender

agreed, rands plate is FULL, and if we're going to leave him to solve every problem, the last book will be very boring...

yea, gaidal is an infant, clearly he cant have a large role in the books... he couldnt be 3 yrs old...

we know that mat survives, as RJ was planning the outrigger novels... the rest, we dont really know tho... tho i do find it hard to believe that as the series ended with a leveling of every major character, that it will end with all the major characters still alive...