Oh, it saddens me to whole-heartedly agree with anyone, given my contrary nature, but in this I have to.

I have never accepted Alivia, and have always found her suspicious. Up until Sem was revealed, I thought the former damane might have been she, due to her incredible strength (after all, Sem is brilliant at mental manipulation, so memories of 400 years should be easy to plant). Additionally, my massive, secret, love-affair with Min means that if she doesn't trust someone, then I back her up. :)

Well reasoned, and (to me) unassailable.

The theory makes sense. A few things to point out, though. I'm up to the Whitebridge chunk of ToM(this re-read), and I don't believe Alivia has made an appearance in this book, or more importantly since Veins of Gold.  Rand trusted her when he was making his descent into "terminal madness" in the good words of Semi, but there is nothing to indicate whether or not that still holds.  It wouldn't surprise me if this scenario turns out to be true and zen Rand manages to sniff it out and foil her plans. It would be a fitting way to write her off like so many of the secondary and tertiary characters who have popped up since tPoD, and been conveniently disposed of since the pacing has been fixed.

I agree, but I think the reason we haven't really heard much about alivia is that her helping get the dominion band was how she was going to help rand die. Think about it the it was the one of the first major steps since she showed up in that direction. Just a thought feel free to say that I am wrong.

I disagree with some of your conclusions.  First the why did they suddenly take Alvia with them, I think is correlated to Min's viewing.  I think that while in Camelyn, Min mentions to Rand the viewing of Alvia so He decides to take her with them, not Nynaeve, but Rand.  Later on we learn about her viewing as part of an argument.

Next, she lost her favored position when in Tear they saw how she reacted upon hearing the Seanchan accent - which said to the group, maybe she isn't as ready as she thinks she is.  After this she takes a much more minor role in the group. 

Lastly, since she wasn't part of the favored group anymore, she wasn't around to see the weaves to access Cadsuane's box, not to mention that the box's wards were inverted, only a few others knew that, so why would Alvia know that.  The darkfriend suspicion points highly to either Sorilea or Amys (as Bair cannot channel).

I agree that it seems like Alivia could be a darkfriend, but I disagree with the idea of Cadsuane's box providing any evidence.  I'm under the very strong impression that Shadar Haran is the one that managed to get past Cadsuane's protections.  We have already seen that he at least in some ways can manipulate the one power as he is able to cut people off from the source. 

Though I have no wisdom to add to this conversation, I have to say that first, this is an intriguing argument I had never even considered. I always thought there was something strange about her, even though I liked her antagonistic relationship with Nynaeve. I hate Nynaeve. But, that's beside the point. A good read and an interesting thought. :)

But doesn't Rand's power as a ta'veren/dragon reborn make it so he can identify darkfriends? Remember when he lined up all the High Lords and Ladies of Tear and was able to know exactly which ones were enemies? And wasn't Alivia present at the classing, something that Lanfear noticed because she was suprised at her incredible strength? Wouldn't she have attempted to kill Rand and stop the cleansing like the rest of the forsaken. The idea that she was ordered to spy on Rand and be off the collar by sul'dam has merit, but I just don't see it. Damne freak out whenever they are off the collar, going insane and lashing out with the power whenever they are out of their collars. I definitely agree with the fact that Alivia is strange though, her mannerism is completely opposite that of normal damne. Maybe she just has an adnormal disposition, but is there any chance she might be reborn soul who has awakened former memories? Just an idea, I don't see her as necessarily bad. 

I kind of like this theory. I was always suspicious of how fast she gained acceptance into the group. And before anyone argues that Min and Nyneave don't trust her, think of the Cleansing. Cadsuane made sure she had Nyneave's paralis net and jewelry to defend herself and didn't have her link with anyone either going off her on her own to patrol the hillside. I disagree with anyone thinking compulsion was involved. I do not think Cadsuane can be compelled with her terangreal. So either Cadsuane trusts her, or thought she could quickly stomp her out even with Nyneave's jewelry if she posed a problem during the cleansing, and I doubt that. And Nyneave did give her the jewelry without much of an argument aside from telling her she wants them back when it's over. I don't know about the darkfriend part, or the weaves on Cadsuane's box either, because I was under the impression either Shadar Haran removed the weaves or gave Elza the knowledge to do it herself before freeing Semirhage.

I like this theory, I've never considered those possibilities. I probably just accepted Alivia as a nice outcast plot in the story.

@demonchild,

You could be right - some think (and I like the idea myself) that Rand metaphorically died on DM so Alivia may have already helped him indeed.

These theories for a darkfriend are interesting, but like Myrddraai wrote, 'Rand's power as a ta'veren/dragon reborn make it so he can identify darkfriends'.

So this means that they are not darkfriends, but something else? Maybe the dark has them fooled into working for them without them understanding it?

Sorilea as a Darkfriend is unlikely

She is? I've found her to be one of the most likely candidates for darkfriend. Its a pretty popular theory, and fits the evidence cited above much more smoothly. Perfectly, in fact.

@Myddraai you make an excellent point I don't know why I didn't think of that.

I'm going to throw out pure speculation here, but what was alivia at 13 when she was collared. For all we know she could have been empress then, after all tuon can channel, she may have been found out early and holds resentment toward the whole system

It could be even simpler.  Min has a viewing saying that Alivia will help Rand die.  When she first has it, she is disturbed, but it doesn't come across as a bad thing until later in the series when she starts to miscontrue her original words and say that she is going to kill him.  Maybe the pattern, in all of it's crazy awesomeness, decided it needed an alarmingly powerful female channeler at the last battle and that combined with Rand's Ta'veren nature caused Alivia to feel resentment towards the Sul'dam.

the word "help" leads me to believe that she's on rands side... i mean... if she was going to attack rand, i dont see how that could be construed as "helping" him die... more like, "forcing"... she may have bad intentions, but it will be driven by rands intent...

Speaking of fain what is his role going to be and what is with the red aiel sorry off topic

Note: unfortunately i'm not even up to the part where Alivia is introduced to the story, so this is pure speculation from the information i gleaned from this thread.

the word "help" leads me to believe that she's on rands side... i mean... if she was going to attack rand, i dont see how that could be construed as "helping" him die... more like, "forcing"... she may have bad intentions, but it will be driven by rands intent...

@Mark i believe that you have an intriguing point, as i was thinking of something along those lines. Think about exactly what she said, and how many different meanings that has. It's like with Aes Sedai or with the elves in Eragon when they speak in the Ancient Language. They tell the truth, but in a misleading way, or they phrase their words so they tell you only what they want to, but to you, it sounds like they are telling you everything you asked for.

Alivia 'helping' Rand die could mean absolutely anything, and like Mashiara says, in his mindset, even Fain or one of the Forsaken would help him die. But I don't think thats it. I believe that Alivia 'helping' Rand die would mean that either he's dieing and she refuses to help him, or she makes his death quick after he's already dieing, or that he asks her to kill him and she complies. If you understand what i mean, Min would have said something that involved the word kill if she saw that in her viewing, for instance:

'Alivia is going to help kill you' or 'Alivia is going to kill you'

if that was how it was going to be. Do you notice the difference? So basically I think that the way she phrased the sentence makes it seem like Rand is voluntarily dieing and she is just helping him through the process or something like that.

And i just thought of another thing. Did you notice, (and i'm not to sure on this one, as i am not up to the part where Min tells Rand about her viewing, so i don't know her exact words) that she said that Alivia WAS going to help kill you? that she WAS? I think that either her opinion changed or being around Ta'averen has altered her role in Rand's death.

As well as this, you know how in the earlier books Min tells Rand and his group that if she tells people about her visions that are of their death, or just that her telling them of her visions in general, changes it in some way, most of the time making it worse? Maybe the fact that she told Rand about the vision that Alivia was going to help him die just changed how it happens, or maybe it was never like that, as (i'm guessing) that she doesn't harbor any (visible) hate and/or dislike towards Rand.

If any of the things im guessing about happen to be wrong, please tell me in later posts? and could someone post Min's exact words to Rand from her viewing.

Sorilea works so hard to protect Rand, and has such contempt for Semirhage; she doesn't seem like darkfriend material to me.  But I could be totally wrong on that one.

@ Mashi  While I find it very hard to believe that Sorilea is a darkfriend, I can't see taking her contempt for Semirhage as confirmation.  Many of the forsaken hate each other, if Sorilea is a darkfriend I would see her being in an upper tier similar to where Taim is.

I just realised, and this contradicts a tiny part of my earlier post, but Fain or the Forsaken couldn't help Rand die unless Rand wanted to die and he didn't care how, only that he wanted to.

@spoke, @mbuehner, @NeekNack and @Mashiara Sedia, i think that you 4 might get a better idea why (apart from the fact that Semirhage is a Forsaken) Sorilea has such contempt for Semirhage if you work out the main difference between them and/or figure out Sorilea's core and what her main intentions are, or something like that, because the reason Sorilea hates Semirhage could range from something as simple as the fact that Semirhage is a Forsaken (which i doubt, as she is not such a simple person that just hates random people because she can) or more complex like because Semirhage opposes everything that Sorilea stands for/works for.

Just something i thought of while re-reading the thread. ^_^

It doesn't seem at all plausible to me that a damane could be a darkfriend. They are completely subjugated. People become darkfriends for personal gain, but how would a damane expect to gain something? Unless Alivia is the one damane in all of Seanchan that was able to keep a sense of self even after 400 years of being a tool to be used by other people. Sounds unlikely.

The notion of her being a Seanchan spy seems more likely.

The theory makes sense. A few things to point out, though. I'm up to the Whitebridge chunk of ToM(this re-read), and I don't believe Alivia has made an appearance in this book, or more importantly since Veins of Gold.  Rand trusted her when he was making his descent into "terminal madness" in the good words of Semi, but there is nothing to indicate whether or not that still holds.  It wouldn't surprise me if this scenario turns out to be true and zen Rand manages to sniff it out and foil her plans. It would be a fitting way to write her off like so many of the secondary and tertiary characters who have popped up since tPoD, and been conveniently disposed of since the pacing has been fixed.

I'm currently on my Towers of Midnight reread, so I'm not 100% sure, but has Rand seen Alivia after his epiphany?  Actually, after a quick check on my Kindle, Alivia's name isn't even mentioned in Towers of Midnight.

so unfortunately, I'm not buying this :

These theories for a darkfriend are interesting, but like Myrddraai wrote, 'Rand's power as a ta'veren/dragon reborn make it so he can identify darkfriends'. So this means that they are not darkfriends, but something else? Maybe the dark has them fooled into working for them without them understanding it?

i had always assumed that alivia would help rand die by coming up with the plan to conceal him from the world after the last battle. min had the viewing of him walking dressed as a beggar and of herself, elayne, and aviendha on a boat. my thinking is that alivia will somehow change logain to look like rand since glory is in his future, and then rand can slip away with his women into concealment thus dying to the world. i also think rand will get wounded or even die but either nyneave or alivia will bring him back to life. nyneave has said that even death should be healable given enough of the power. rand will reserect, he is after all a christ figure.