Perhaps the reason for Taim's dropping of the 'so-called Aiel' comments is that he has his own 'past-life voice' from the Age of Legends talking to him (possibly as a manifestation of the insanity due to the taint).

Semirhage (though not necessarily the most reliable of sources) indicated that this form of insanity was something that she had seen before, so it does not seem outside the realm of possibility and nothing says that the condition was exclusive to just Rand.

That might explain quite a bit since if in that past-life he was a darkfriend too, that persona could be influencing his word choices, general behavior and even his taste in decor.

I'm not saying I think this is true (and it is probably completely wrong). It's just an idea that occurred to me while reading this.

@Philip, I like that idea and I was thinking alone the same lines.

It would follow the theme of cyclical time if Logain and Taim were foes in their previous lives as well. Is there any mention that Quaire Amalasen had a nemesis? (sorry, dont have the books in front of me, so I can't spell Logains past alter ego correctly)

I'm doubtful regarding the "fake seal" theory. From KoD:

“Ah, yes. The seals. Indeed, they must be found.” Moridin’s smile was almost complacent. “Only three remain, all in al’Thor’s possession. though I doubt he has them with him. They’re too susceptible to breaking, now. He will have hidden them. Direct your people to places he has been. Search them yourselves.”

Would Moridin lie to the other Forsaken if he knew that one of Rand's seals was a fake? Maybe, but I kind of doubt it. Moridin knows that Rand is going to break the seals from his Dark prophecy and that any attempt to stop him from doing so is futile. He just wants to rig the fulfillment of that prophecy to the Shadow's best interest. This makes sense because Book VI is when Herid Fel realizes the seals need to be removed, and Taim gives Rand the seal because Moridin knows that the seals will be removed by Rand. Moridin's end-game is most likely to let Rand remove the seals and then unleash whatever he's been building up because he knows it's coming.

Wonderful blog as always Despothera. I like all of your ideas, as usual. Well-conceived, and well-articulated.

Taim from the AoL? Sure, I can buy that. It makes me wonder how far back in time the Dark One can reach for bringing people back to life. For example, could Taim be some here-to-for unmentioned dreadlord from the Age of Legends who was killed, remained dead for 3,000 years, and then was brought back JUST before the other Forsaken started to awake? Taim would have been terrorizing Saldea at about that time.

Or perhaps he had an identity in the AoL that we might have already heard mentioned, then he was brought back to life in the present, but neither author has given us the connection to his AoL identity yet. Can anyone think of any names of male channelers from the AoL that haven't been accounted for in the present timeline of the story?

And I think Taim's fate is linked to Logain's. If the Black and White Towers are united (which might not happen), Logain's only chance of becoming Tamyrlin would be if Suian and Leane vouch for him and even then his chances are slim. None of the existing tower Aes Sedai (including Egwene) would allow him to take control. And since I don't see Egwene dying, I therefore doubt the two towers will unite. I look forward to seeing Logain kick Taim's ass most thoroughly, and then take over the Black Tower, which will remain independent from the White Tower.

I, for one, have always been a fan of the Taim = Be'lal theory.

Week 3 Question

Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small.

Hi Despothera,

This topic is a difficult one for me because I feel I will be as disappointed with it as I was with how Asmodean turned out, but I'm not convinced by any of the theories out there are far as to his identity...I should rectify that very soon if I want to have a final shot at Theory Glory before the end. Along these lines of thought, I was recently rereading Chapter 31 from Towers of Midnight and it made me laugh out loud when I read, "about mysterious deaths, or not so mysterious ones" when describing the kinds of discussions that take place at The Dusty Wheel. I tend to think of that sentence as a nod to the many arguments we've (the fans) had over the last two decades regarding the identity of Asmodean's killer and other such mysteries.

With that being said, I've never been fond of Linda's "Taim is Moridin" theory. However, she very well could be right, because it is less complex than many other ideas I've either had or read over the years. I tend to enjoy and support the fun theories over what I consider to be boring ones such as Taim as the 14th Chosen, and Taim as Be'lals Protege. I'm a sucker for the ideas where fans take it beyond the usual suspects. Unfortunately, it typically turns out to be a usual suspect.

I remember back in the late 90's supporting the concept that Taim is Taim is Evil. In essence, he is the Demandred of this Age. I'd even accept trained by Ishamael. But in writing this I realize now that I've gotten to used to considering and reviewing theories about Taim without taking a firm "Lanfear Killed Asmodean" stance.

I wish RJ just went for a pure lie and Taim turned out to be Demandred...if that happened I don't think I could stop laughing. But it won't.

ZOMG! Tam said I might be right. :)

I've thought that Taim is Moridin for a long time, when it was a theory that was not a usual suspect. Whoever Taim is, I hope that the denouement of his identity is dramatic, and appropriately satisfying.

This is our last chance to theorise on these long-standing mysteries.

I'm doubtful regarding the "fake seal" theory. From KoD:

 

Quote

 

“Ah, yes. The seals. Indeed, they must be found.” Moridin’s smile was almost complacent. “Only three remain, all in al’Thor’s possession. though I doubt he has them with him. They’re too susceptible to breaking, now. He will have hidden them. Direct your people to places he has been. Search them yourselves.”

 

Would Moridin lie to the other Forsaken if he knew that one of Rand's seals was a fake? ...

And additionally I doubt that the shadow has tried to retrieve the seals before. In the above quote, Moridin doesn't seem overly enthusiastic about it, and why would he explain "there are three left, all in rand's possession" if he ordered to retrieve them before?

I used to believe, too, that the attacks on Bashere's wife and on Dobraine where carried out to get the seals. But recently I looked at the timeline and realised that both attacks happended exactly after Rand revealed his plans to cleanse the Source and before the Cleansing itself. Now I'm pretty sure that it was Moridin sending (non-channeling!) darkfriends to look for the access keys.

Btw, we still have only circumstantial evidence that Taim is a darkfriend! :-)

I personally think that Taim is far more likely to be a Mordeth like character: of the shadow but not under the Dark Ones thumb. Taim to me was most likely freed by his 'allies' (aka the Forsaken in disguise much like) while being taken to the tower. His 'allies' manipulate him like they did the Shaido Aiel. I only see Taim as being in the pursuit of power and being to dim or conceited to realize who his 'allies' really are. From what we can see building I believe that a civil war made up of good Ashaman and a promise to free the Aes Sedai will challenge the rotten core of Taim's supporters. Taim will live but flee, and the Black Tower will save Camelyn at roughly the time that Mat comes back with Moiraine. Then that battle group will travel to Rand's meeting with the monarchs of the world, where he will establish the Dragon's Peace.

howdy everyone, Despothera ive read all these theories and theyre great!! and everyones comments are great too, so much insight thats either awakening to read or at least entertaining :) I had to create an account just for this cause i had an instant epiphany while reading about Taim giving Rand the seal. Does anyone think that maybe he hid some kind of tracking deal on it like Moiraine did on the coins she gave all the boys back in EotW? I'm sure they would like to track Rand if they could, assuming there isnt some other way already, but even if they know that he stashes them, maybe its to find the stash itself, to either steal them or set up an ambush. Would love to hear any thoughts on this as its my first post...

p.s. how many friends have you guys made or random conversations with strangers have people had due to these books? ill overhear them being spoken about at random and next thing i know there is instant comeradery, gotta love it

@Toot Yeah, the WoT camaraderie is strong kung-fu. Similar to my fellow metalheads after a Metallica show in San Fran. People you don't even know will bond instantly if they learn you were there together. Strange but awesome...

Hmmm... a tracking whammy in seal that Taim gave to Rand. Not sure how cuendillar would react to having the One Power (or True Power) used on it in that manner. We know that any attempt to break or harm the seal, including using the OP on it, would only make cuendillar stronger. But installing a tracking whammy would not be intended to cause harm per se, so maybe your idea has merit. I only wonder why Taim hasn't taken advantage of it yet. Or maybe he has, but we don't know it. Was there something Taim did or said that you think would back up your theory?

And welcome to the community, Toot.

I had to make a separate post for this, because it's more connected to Despothera's blog than to my last reply. And it's sort of a "mini-theory" of my own. I haven't actually heard the "Taim is Moridin" theory before reading this blog, and now that I've heard it and spent a couple of days thinking about it, it's starting to sound very likely to me.

Think about the cleansing of saidin for a moment. When Rand's crew cleansed saidin, every surviving Forsaken was expected to be there to combat Rand's efforts. Even Moghedian was expected to fight openly, not her strong suit. Cyndane also, which was a risk for the DO, because no one knew Lanfear was back at that point. Not to mention the loss of Aginor/Osan'gar, another powerful "Tower of Midnight" chopped down, at least for now.

But if Taim is a dreadlord, or an aspiring Forsaken, why wasn't he present for that fight? With his abilities and knowledge about Rand limitations, he might have been able to turn the tide of that fight for the Shadow. But he didn't appear.

It is an impossibility that Taim didn't know what was happening. Every channeler on the continent felt the amount of power that was being used to cleanse saidin. Taim HAD to know what was happening, and still he was a no-show.

If Taim is NOT a darkfriend, he absolutely would have shown up to help Rand. But for the moment, let's assume the obvious and state that Taim IS a darkfriend of some kind.

As far as we know, Taim was not punished for failing to show up to the battle, so let's assume he was never punished for it. There are only two possibilities I can see for why that might be possible.

1. Taim was doing something that Moridin (or the DO, or whomever is holding Taim's leash) considered to be "more important" than preventing THE CLEANSING OF SAIDIN. Perhaps Moridin has Taim in his pocket and wants to keep it that way, or...

2. Taim is in fact some other character in disguise who was also not present at the cleansing. Let's run through the list of notables who could have been counted on to participate but skipped the fight:

A. Mesanna (severly punished for skipping out, so not Taim)

B. Shaidar Haran (handled Mesanna's punishment, all but established that SH is the physical embodiment of the DO in our world, safe to assume it is not Taim)

C. Slayer (not a channeler, would not have known what was happening unless told, and probably wouldn't have been much help with SO MANY channlers and angreal's throwing power around, and he is SO not Taim)

D. Moridin

And why would Moridin have skipped out on that fight? It's still a bit of a mystery unless I'm forgetting something obvious. Shouldn't he have been there? If you were the DO, wouldn't you have wanted your strongest, most loyal servant to be a part of that battle? SH was pretty pi**ed at Mesanna, but not at Moridin or Taim, as far as we know. They are the only two members of Team Shadow that SHOULD have been expected to be there, but for some reason were not punished for blowing it off.

Either they are working together toward the same end, and that end is more important to the Dark One than preventing the cleansing of saidin, (which means Moridin is controlling Taim), or else they are the same person.

Do I have this right?

Taim is Moridin's son.

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/59033-could-moridin-be-taims-father/page__hl__taim

I made this post a year or so ago. I still think this idea makes more sense than any other theory in this thread, especially the odd "Taim is Moridin" theory.

Interestingly someone mentioned this theory to Sanderson on his twitter account. Sanderson asked for a link to the theory.

Also note that the Black Ajah made an effort to free Taim but not Logain. Could this be because Taim was already a darkfriend at the time of his capture?

According to Wilson there is a "blank" in the Blight. I believe it may be some kind of city and inside this city is probably some of Moridin's stored up dreadlords and probably some of the weird Aiel guys we saw in TOM as well.

Of course it is all speculation, but I haven't seen any more compelling ideas yet. Taim clearly has a strong knowledge of channeling that he could not have gained over night-- especially without a teacher. I believe he was taught many of these weaves long before Rand arrived. How else would he have learned how to test the talent? It doesn't even make sense that a self-seeking dragon would try to learn how to test for the channeling talent in men because it would lead to more competition for the dragon title.

I believe the reason that people see a resemblance between Taim and Moridin is because Taim is Moridin's son

I would just like to add that if Taim was linked with the Dark One, I beleive that Rand would have seen or sensed the Links. Asmodean clearly told Rand that the only way that the maddness doesnt affect them is becuase they are Linked with the dark one.

The biggest problem I have with Taim = Moridin is Winter's Heart, Chapter 22, Out of Thin Air.

Taim gives Kisman the order to outright, straight up, kill Rand. Moridin has never wanted Rand harmed, especially since their "bonding" in ACoS. Semirhage was punished for doing exactly that. In the same scene, Kisman remembers that Moridin's orders were almost contradictory to Taim's.

Using the True Power isn't necessarily evidence that he is Moridin, just evidence that he has served the Dark One well (See: Graendal). Creating an army of Dreadlords surely counts as good service.

Just because Taim favors red and black is, again, not necessarily evidence that he is Moridin: Moridin -required- Lanfear and Moghedian to wear them because they were "his" colors. Since (theoretically) Moridin and Shadar Haran have spent the last half-dozen books uniting the Forsaken under Ishamael's command, it isn't too surprising that he could order this of Taim.

There is another explanation for the colors: aside from being called the Netweaver, Be'lal was also called the Envious. Adopting the colors of the Nae'blis (as well as Rand's dragons on the sleeves of his coat) would be his demonstration of jealousy of the two most powerful men in the world. It also explains the sigil on the doors of the Black Tower.

I don't think RJ specified that the Dark One can save his minions from "very small Balefire" for no reason.

@Metal ya the cuendillar part of it was making it a little difficult to wrap my head around it, and the fact that it wouldnt be harmful helped to allow the idea of a tracker on the seal. Mostly my reasoning for that is that its hard to imagine a man like Taim handing that over IF he is a darkfriend high or low, without some sort of motive. I'm about 99% positive he is dark and potentially someone very high up, but there is a small part of me that thinks he is just some pompous tool/unkowing pawn who could have been trained by someone. I just can't wrap my head around him giving up the seal without some ulterior motive beyond just gaining trust, he has to have some idea how important the seals are to Rand's victory and i would have expected him to naturally withhold it from Rand...I think its got to be a subplot line thats yet to have panned out, or i hope so at least :)

@Toot I think that if Taim, as a darkfriend, handed over a true seal on the DO's prison, then he must believe that it will not be any good to Rand, or that it will distract his attention.

And there's been a couple people mention the possibility that Taim is Bel'al, based on the the theory that he may have been balefired by a small enough amount of power that the DO could still bring him back. I'd like to question the assumption that it was a "small amount" of balefire. I know that Moiraine isn't nearly as strong as any of the Forsaken, or even the Emmond's Field channelers, but she was still no slouch, considered among the more powerful Aes Sedai of the time, and she had an angreal. Why is it we think that she used only a small amount of balefire to kill Bel'al? Is there some quote anyone can point to dealing with this issue?

Taim as Moridin's son.... hmmm... I like the idea, but I have my doubts. Ishamael might have been around about 40 years prior, and the timing could work out depending on Taim's age (which I don't recall). But still, no one has addressed the fact that Moridin and Taim were the only two known dreadlords that were excused from fighting the cleansing of saidin. Why? Even if Taim was Moridin/Ishamael's son, I don't think that would have been enough to buy him a reprieve from joining that battle.

To my mind, there is ZERO chance that Taim is just some wanna-be dreadlord that is simply trying to attract the attention of the Dark One. He is clearly involved with at least ONE other Forsaken (otherwise, how would he know the line "Let the lord of chaos rule?"), and it's looking more and more like Moridin.

So new theory, with little to no evidence: We been talking on these boards for quite some time about the idea of a "Dark Rand" or more specifically, the idea that somehow Rand and Moridin will exchange bodies (see Despothera's great blog about Callandor). Let's assume that's right. What if Moridin already IS exchanging bodies, at least on occasion, with Taim? That would explain a lot. How quickly and easily he infiltrated and converted the majority of the Black Tower, how he got access to Caemlyn before it was attacked, why he's so surprised that Rand cannot test for the ability to channel in men, and why Taim was not punished for contradicting Moridin's order not to kill Rand. Taim's face and Moridin's mind.

Here's the thought that counts: What if Taim is Moridin's version of Shaidar Haran?

Can we all at least agree that Taim is SOMEHOW connected directly to Moridin? Whether he IS Moridin, or his son, or his protege, or just his fanboy, he's got to be in cahoots with him in some way...

Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim, but has Demandred posed as a Mazrim Taim? Is this why Jordan's answer is simple and straightforward and the most devious of all?

I think that the theory of Taim being from the AoL, possibly even one of the original Forsaken is entirely plausible. There is plenty of evidence to support this. Remember that what the Third-Agers know as the Forsaken were actually only the most well known and powerful of them. From the WoT Wiki:

"Once there were many Forsaken, at least thirty of high rank, but they schemed against each other as often as against the forces of the Light. Twenty-nine of the Forsaken were given special permission from the Dark One to touch the True Power. This was the unified source of energy originally sought by Lanfear's research, equally accessible to males and females, but only with the access granted personally by the Dark One."

The Forsaken were said to have turned their armies against one another, and that only the 13 survived. What if one of the lesser Forsaken, not lesser in the OP but simply in deeds, swore allegiance to another of the Forsaken in oder to be spared? Say, maybe Demandred? I have always thought that it is very possible Taim is Demandred's proxy or apprentice, some things seemed to point to him actually having living knowledge of the AoL, Remember his reaction the first time he heard Rand use the term Ashaman? It seemed to be more than a reaction to a story, and more of a personal hatred. Pardon this analogy, but it was the first thing that came to mind: Kind of like the difference between the reaction you get when a modern teen hears the term Nazi, as opposed to the reaction you would get from an actual survivor of the holocaust hearing the term.

Why couldn't he be one of the other Forsaken from the AoL? Venturing a guess as to how he came to be in the Third Age - trapped or purposefully placed into Tel Aran Rhiod, perhaps? Easy enough enough explanation, and something that wouldn't be too far of a stretch. It would explain a lot, especially why he seems to know things about the AoL and why he seems to be protected from the taint.

@tnfsinger I'm in total agreement about Taim being from the AoL, either in some kind of stasis or trapped somewhere to preserve him for 3000 years, or else brought back by the DO (trans-something or other).

But why does he have to be tied to Demandred specifically? Why not another Forsaken? Taim does seem to favor Moridin's colors... And again, if Taim was taking his orders from Demandred, he would have been at the battle for saidin at Shadar Logath along with Demandred and the others. Moridin was the only Forsaken that we know had permission to skip that fight, and yet so did Taim and he was never punished for it (that we know of). Ergo, Taim must have Moridin's protection, making him Moridin's pet, not Demandred's...

Dammit I cannot wait to read this final book and figure out all this stuff.

I truly hope that, sometime after the last book's publication, that Team Jordan holds an internet Q&A for all of the last few nagging questions that we're probably all going to still have. They could probably re-release the entire WoT in annotated format, like they did for the Dragonlance Chronicles and Legends series'. I bet they'd sell like mad.

I'd like to question the assumption that it was a "small amount" of balefire. I know that Moiraine isn't nearly as strong as any of the Forsaken, or even the Emmond's Field channelers, but she was still no slouch, considered among the more powerful Aes Sedai of the time, and she had an angreal. Why is it we think that she used only a small amount of balefire to kill Bel'al?

I don't have any direct quotes, but weren't all modern Aes Sedai taught that Balefire was to never be used? Moiraine was breaking a pretty big rule by using it, and I would think that even though she did use it, that she might have been... um pulling her punches?.. so that she didn't cause any collateral damage. Rand never really concerned himself too much with what damage he cause with it, but I don't think Moiraine would have been so callous about it. I could easily see her thinking to herself "Balefire will be the only course of action here, but I don't want it to be too powerful lest I kill someone else that's important to the Wheel.", and using only enough to vaporize him.

I think everyone made a big mistake is just taking it forgranted that one of the forsaken would have missed the cleansing and not been punished.

The way I see it, the cleansing of the taint was a hugely important act, but it wasn't everything. There is a reason why Shaidar Haran wasn't there, why the forsaken weren't opening gateways into the blight to bring out trollocs, fades, drahkar, etc. So we know that there are other things that the DO valued more highly than the cleansing.

So Taim is simply working on one of those.

Once you accept the fact that Taim can easily be a friend of the dark and still have missed the cleansing, there are many people he could easily be. I'm also on board for the Be'lal theory.

@Fan15801 - I also agree. In the first denial he specifically references Aes Sedai ability to lie and have it accepted as the truth, because you know they can't lie. When you say something ilke Mazrim Taim is not Demandred, you are assuming that Mazrim Taim is real. Mazrim Taim cannot be anything if he's not real. Demandred on the other hand can be Mazrim Taim.

I just think there's too much evidence for Taim being a Forsaken. Although I do like the theory about him being another non-forsaken channeler from the AoL, i just don't think it's the case, but that would be an interesting twist.

 

None of the existing tower Aes Sedai (including Egwene) would allow him to take control. And since I don't see Egwene dying, I therefore doubt the two towers will unite.

acualy i can see Egweme being able to stand with logan as an equeal leader of the new tower rebuilt

Metal Head, on , said:

 

 

None of the existing tower Aes Sedai (including Egwene) would allow him to take control. And since I don't see Egwene dying, I therefore doubt the two towers will unite.

acualy i can see Egweme being able to stand with logan as an equeal leader of the new tower rebuilt

as far as im aware, the hall of servants only had one leader :) but, that doesnt say that the next age cannot have two... with avi's future walk, we know the black and white tower have come down, so i assume that the new tower that eliada started building, will become the new tower for both men and women...

tho thats just speculative :)

and i dont think egwene and logain have even met... while they are both strong leaders, i cannot say whether or not they would get along...