EotW observation with spoiler

[DojoToad]

Reading EotW for at least the 6th time and this is the first time I noticed this...

 

Rand is sitting on the palace wall watching the procession with Logain.  It describes Logain's cage as having 2 sisters sitting at each corner and the Warders riding around the cart with the cage as if they were the only guards around.

 

Then a few chapters later when the gang is all speaking in the Queen's Blessing, Moiraine states: "There are perhaps twenty Aes Sedai in Caemlyn at this moment, and every one but I of the Red Ajah."

 

If all the Aes Sedai guarding Logain are Red, then where did all the Warders come from?  Reds never have Warders.  I find it hard to believe that Aes Sedai of other Ajahs would loan out their Warders.

[szilard]

Reading EotW for at least the 6th time

 

That's the proper attitude.

 

Moiraine states: "There are perhaps twenty Aes Sedai in Caemlyn at this moment, and every one but I of the Red Ajah."

 

If all the Aes Sedai guarding Logain are Red, then where did all the Warders come from?  Reds never have Warders.  I find it hard to believe that Aes Sedai of other Ajahs would loan out their Warders.

 

1. Moi does not know everything, and she's often wrong. Or she wants to push Rand, again.

2. She's (slightly) out of loop.

3. She's paranoid.

 

So, in the end, it's possible that there were Greens etc. amongst them.

 

 

Excellent observation, by the way.

[DojoToad]

So you don't think it was just that RJ hadn't fleshed out the Aes Sedai, and that Reds didn't have the no Warder 'rule' in his universe yet?

[szilard]

1994:

 

Question

What about those Warders in Caemlyn around Logain in The Eye of the World? Didn't Moiraine say that they were all Red sisters? Reds don't have Warders!

 

Robert Jordan

Moiraine never mentioned the sisters escorting Logain (not all of whom were Red Ajah). The ones with Logain weren't in Caemlyn at the time. Moiraine was referring to those that were in Caemlyn. There is something explaining this in Lord of Chaos. Remember that the interleaving of plot threads goes backward as well as forward.

 

 

So you don't think it was just that RJ hadn't fleshed out the Aes Sedai, and that Reds didn't have the no Warder 'rule' in his universe yet?

 

TEotW was a hard labour, but the first book was splitted into two novels: tEotW and TGH. So, I think, he already had rules about them.

 

1. Using Ockham's aftershave: it's a simple error. Where were the editor?

2. Caddy aided them: She had a pretty big fandom, so maybe there were many Green etc. AS with her.

 

 

A little insight: SPOILERS!!! (way beyond the first book!)

 

 

CORRECTION: Answering these questions, I have always taken the assumption that I knew the books well enough that I did not need to refer to my notes. My answer for the Week 20 Question showed that I was mistaken. I said that Elaida was never a Sitter, but no sooner was that answer posted than my assistant Maria, who also is a fan, came to me with the relevant passage where Elaida is mentioned as a Sitter. I went to my notes, and after a lot of checking, I found the following in a file working out exactly how some points were to be structured and making sure that I had all the details covered. Somehow, I had never incorporated it into the base notes, perhaps because it seemed such a small matter, Elaida having been a Sitter for such a short time and then only as prelude to replacing Siuan and Amyrlin.

“Returning to the White Tower, Elaida quickly became convinced that Siuan and Moiraine were engaged in a scheme that involved Rand al’Thor. Indeed, she had suspicions of this before departing Caemlyn for Tar Valon. Moiraine’s presence in Tar Valon had not escaped her, nor that Moiraine had been seen with Rand. If, as seemed the more likely, he was simply a man who could channel who Siuan and Moiraine intended to make use of as a false Dragon, then it was a scheme that was extremely dangerous to the Tower. Revelation of such involvement could easily shatter the Tower’s prestige, and with it the influence that was the primary cornerstone of the Tower’s influence in the world. And if he was indeed the Dragon Reborn, Elaida certainly had no confidence in Siuan’s ability to handle the him, as surely the Dragon Reborn would need to be handled, guided and directed, not to mention controlled. Helped by her long-standing personal animosity toward Siuan and Moiraine, Elaida came to the conclusion that Siuan must be removed for the good of the Tower. This was not something that could be accomplished by an ordinary sister, however the stepping down of a Red Sitter (Amira Moselle) gave her an opening, and she managed to get herself chosen as Amira’s replacement in the Hall of the Tower.

In large part this was because of Galina Casban’s support as head of the Red Ajah, Galina having her own reasons to take any chance to pull Siuan down and, of course, favoring anything that would give the Amyrlin Seat to the Red Ajah again after so long. Galina made no attempt to attain the Amyrlin Seat herself because she knew she had little or no chance of being raised. Elaida, who had been so long away from Tar Valon and thus remained out of the political currents of the Tower, not to mention the favorable mention she had received for her guidance of Queen Morgase and Andor, was another matter. Once Elaida had a chair in the Hall, it was a relatively simple matter to identify the Sitters who seemed most likely to stand for deposing Siuan, since a number of Sitters were uneasy at best about what Siuan was up to. Her support in the Hall had eroded sufficiently by The Great Hunt that she had opposition to her journey to Shienar. As a Sitter, Elaida was able to call a sitting of the Hall while making sure that only the Sitters she wanted to attend actually received notification.

Elaida is a forceful and effective speaker, and her arguments to this bare quorum in favor of deposing Siuan were also her campaign for being raised to the Amyrlin Seat herself, so the vote to depose Siuan was followed immediately by the vote to make Elaida the new Amyrlin. She did not expect the violent reaction that would come from this. She had not had access to the secret histories for very long at this point, so her view was that of most sisters. The Tower had always acceded to the will of the Hall however sisters might grumble. Like many others, she was blind-sided by what she thought she knew.” So there it is. I offer my apologies for giving an erroneous answer. From now on, I’ll be sure to check my notes.

 

Edited November 3, 2016 by szilard

[Sabio]

I think a few things come into play.  Stands to reason not every sister would go into the city, so I took it as most the ones who went into the city were Reds and the warders belonged to sisters outside of the city.  As we have seen in later books, the Aes Sedai numbers in a city vary as it seems there are always some coming and going.  Moriane was probably just going on the names she knew were there, also she never saw the procession herself.  So there might of been 30 in the town and she is simply unaware of some. 

[szilard]

Stands to reason not every sister would go into the city, so I took it as most the ones who went into the city were Reds and the warders belonged to sisters outside of the city. 

 

Can you bring any examples? I haven't seen any such behaviour in mass scale from AS and Warders.

[Sabio]

Mass scale?  Why wouldn't a sister let her warder provdie an escort in the city?  They are just outside the city.  All they were doing was letting the queen see him and then take him away.  They aren't always with their warders, we seen often they being sent of errand and such.  So in this case its simply taking logain in the city.

[DojoToad]

I remember examples of Aes Sedai being very possessive of their Warders. It doesn't make sense that the Aes Sedai would wait outside the city while their Warders were in a parade. The whole point of the procession was to show the power of the White Tower. If there had been a bunch of other Aes Sedai around, they would have been participating,not waiting for their Warders to get done playing.

[szilard]

I remember examples of Aes Sedai being very possessive of their Warders. It doesn't make sense that the Aes Sedai would wait outside the city while their Warders were in a parade. The whole point of the procession was to show the power of the White Tower. If there had been a bunch of other Aes Sedai around, they would have been participating,not waiting for their Warders to get done playing.

 

DojoToad, thanks for putting my thoughts in(to) writing.

 

Sabio, we are talking about 'hunter' AS, who are at the top of the chain, they will not rent their Warders to anyone at all, not even for 'a few' hours. Of course, if you have any examples in mass scale - tEotW-KoD -, share with us.

[Sabio]

Again they aren't really lending their warders to an Aes Sedai to be bossed around, simply providing a guard.  You figure to capture a man who can channel they probably send at least a couple of dozen Aes Sedai, many will have warders as there sure to be fighting.  Now not al lthose Aes Sedai are going to go into an already over packed city.  So they simply need a guard around the carriage.  it's a go in, show him off, and leave type operation.  Their warders were sent in to simply to guard Logain, or Moraine was wrong. 

 

Please provide mass scale examples of an Aes Sedai would never "rent"  a warder out not even for an hour, as that would make zero sense.  As many situations could come up where a sister might have to send a warder to help another sister.  Yes they are very protective of their warders and do not like another Aes Sedai bossing one about or casting on him.  But again we are simply talking about providing an escort to the queen and back.

[szilard]

WoT Encyclopaedia:

 

This seems to conflict with Moiraine's statement that there are perhaps twenty Aes Sedai in Caemlyn, all but she of the Red Ajah. (TEotW,Ch42) At signings, Jordan explained this. A mixed group of Aes Sedai and their Warders paraded Logain into the city. After they reached the Royal Palace, the Red Ajah sisters were invited to stay at the palace and the rest camped outside the city. By the time Moiraine arrived there were only Red sisters left in the city.

 

Anecdotal, there is no hard evidence.

 

 

It does not make sense at all, see:

 

“It was Logain, practically on my doorstep, that lured me away from my roses. Phaw! A scuffle at a sheep fair could have lured me from those Light-cursed plants. What’s the point if you use the Power, but do it without, and you grow ten thousand thorns for every—Phaw! I actually considered taking the oath as a Hunter, if the Council of Nine would allow it. Well. It was a nice few months, chasing down Logain, but once he was taken, escorting him to Tar Valon appealed as much as the roses. I wandered a bit, to see what I could find, perhaps a new Warder, though it’s a bit late for that in any fairness to the man, I suppose. Then I heard of Taim, and I was off to Saldaea as fast I could ride. There’s nothing for a bit of excitement like a man who can channel.”

 

vs

 

“I thought you were dead,” Bera breathed.

Cadsuane sniffed irritably. “I am growing tired of hearing that.

 

If there was a mixed parade, then how do they not know that Caddy is alive? If the group only contained Reds (they are the main hunters) + Caddy, then it is possible (Reds don't want to share the sweet smell of success with anybody, Caddy does not care).

 

Most Reds look down on other sisters, so why would they endure 'the help of Warders'? And where are these AS, who happily loan their Gaidins to other AS for a whole day?

 

I still think that is an editorial error.

 

 

DEAR LURKERS! (yes, all three of you) Any opinion, remark? Hmm?

[Sabio]

For one we have no idea what sisters were there, so stands to reason some would know she is alive.  But many wouldn't.  

 

Reds aren't dumb, they might hate men but they also know soilders and  warders are needed come fighting time.  Not to mention other uses, warders were used to guard min, etc...  It wouldn't be the first time a false dragons followers tried to free him. But I think RJ explained it the best.  Since nothing in Rand's POV said the Aes Sedai he spotted were red.  We saw with Rand, it wasn't just Red's that kept his shield.

 

It's possible it was an error.

[DojoToad]

I think we're trying too hard to make excuses for Jordan/TOR, whoever...

 

Occum's Razor - it was a mistake.

 

Doesn't make the WoT any less my favorite series of all time.  Tai'Shar Randland!

[szilard]

I think we're trying too hard to make excuses for Jordan/TOR, whoever...

 

We are fans after all

 

 

It is even possible that Caddy is crazy too, she was not there at the latest capturings, maybe she just made it up in her head!

[Orderofolde]

 

Stands to reason not every sister would go into the city, so I took it as most the ones who went into the city were Reds and the warders belonged to sisters outside of the city. 

 

Can you bring any examples? I haven't seen any such behaviour in mass scale from AS and Warders.

 

When the tower sends sisters and soldiers to hunt down Taim I believe it was implied that some warders would go.  There are always warders in the grounds who, like Siuan's Alric are sent far from their Aes Sedai on errands, or who have duties to train new warders.  There would also be warders from any other sisters in the area or picked up along the march.  The two sisters holding Logain's shield might have been Reds, but there were other Ajahs represented, if by implication or our extrapolation.  Greens were likely.  We see that with Cadsuane's long history of going after or stumbling upon men that could channel.

[szilard]

 

 

Stands to reason not every sister would go into the city, so I took it as most the ones who went into the city were Reds and the warders belonged to sisters outside of the city. 

 

Can you bring any examples? I haven't seen any such behaviour in mass scale from AS and Warders.

 

When the tower sends sisters and soldiers to hunt down Taim I believe it was implied that some warders would go.  There are always warders in the grounds who, like Siuan's Alric are sent far from their Aes Sedai on errands, or who have duties to train new warders.  There would also be warders from any other sisters in the area or picked up along the march.  The two sisters holding Logain's shield might have been Reds, but there were other Ajahs represented, if by implication or our extrapolation.  Greens were likely.  We see that with Cadsuane's long history of going after or stumbling upon men that could channel.

 

 

Ok, but the keyword is still 'large-scale'.

[Sabio]

Large scale?  We could say find an entry that states they never do it at all in the books.  We know the warder is not always with their Aes Sedai, we know they get sent off to run errands, they are used as guards, they are absent when their Aes Sedai are used as guards, Aes Sedai put themselves in danger with their warders by them, etc.... We see in TGH a warder riding off after speaking to the Amyrlin, so she clearly gave the warder an order, no warders went with the Aes Sedai to visit Rand.  So it's not too hard to think Aes Sedai would have their warders providing a guard as some of the Aes Sedai stayed outsider the city.