My grand theory: The Horn of Valere, Rand's pipe, and Tar'mon Gai'don

[MrMatrim]

This is a theory I've been mulling over for quite awhile.  It started by my trying to figure out how the Horn of Valere exactly worked.  One thing about RJ's work I always really liked was that he had a very meticulous sense of how the One Power worked, and and how the various -angreal functioned.  He also seemed to like just giving us enough hints to figure things out for ourselves, rather than spelling them out. (See the deaths of Galldrian and Taringail)  So I figured with something that is supposed to be this important to the story, he'd know exactly what it did, how it did it, and why.  After spending probably way too much time on this, this is the conclusion I came to:

 

Bringing back the Heroes of the Horn to fight was NOT the only thing the Horn is meant to do.  I don't even think it's the main purpose of the Horn.  I wouldn't call it a side effect exactly, just the one effect that is easiest to communicate its importance to the layman of the WoT universe.

 

Summoning the Heroes is all well and good, but think about it.  The Heroes only number about 100.  (And wolves, I did not forget them.)  Yes, they are skilled, mighty, and brave.  They are NOT invulnerable and invincible.  One of them even says straight out in aMoL that they can be defeated.  Against all the hordes of Shadowspawn etc, how much of a difference can they TRULY make?  Not insignificant, but enough to actually tip the scales?  Probably not.

 

Putting that aside for now, here is something else to consider.  When Mat blows the horn in TGH, after it summons the Heroes, other weird things happen, things that are not easily explainable:  Rand is standing on clouds above the battle, Rand somehow encounters Ishamael, who seems to mostly stay in dreamshards or Tel'aran'rhiod proper.  And the progress of their struggle and the struggle below are linked somehow.  How?  Why?  These questions and the question of how exactly the horn summons the heroes led me to the following theory.

 

The Horn doesn't exactly summon the Heroes.  What it does is somehow either merge or interweave a radius of the current world with Tel'aran'rhod.  Perhaps the radius is wherever the soundwaves reach before dying out.  I don't have that part worked out yet.  This merging is what allows the Heroes to ride and affect the real world.  What is ALSO does, it make reality malleable there, much like it is more malleable in the world of dreams.   That can explain being in the clouds, it can explain encountering Ba'alzamon, and give some explanation of how Rand's fight with Ba'alzamon can be linked to the Heroes' struggles with the Seanchan.

 

I also think that this was why it was so important for the Horn to be at the true Last Battle.  It seems to be VERY important that reality be malleable when Rand is trying to seal the Bore at Shayol Ghul.  I doubt he could have forged all three powers together without it.  A fluid reality would also make something like the body swap more likely;  Rand and Moridin's sould were already linked somehow by crossing the balefire streams, and Rand was almost remade into Lews Therin when physically in Tel'aran'rhiod at the end of TFoH. (Not exactly the same, I know.  But it does let the reader know that such things are at least in the realm of possibility).  

 

I also think that this is why Rand could light his pipe at the end of aMoL.  Birgitte saying she needed to leave soon in a scene previous tends to imply that whatever effect the horn has was diminishing, but not yet totally gone.  And Rand WAS still in the vicinity.

 

I do wish I had more info on the Rand part.  I know BS won't/can't say how Rand lit his pipe, but I'd love to ask him the following questions, to look at it from another angle:

 

Is that ability unique to Rand?

Is it a repeatable ability? How repeatable?

Will Rand be able to light his pipe the same way in 10 years?  Could he have done it from Tear?  Seanchan?

(I suspect most of the answers to be "no".)

 

I think the only reason the dead Heroes part of the Horn is the main legend is that it is more relatable.  Can you imagine trying to explain the World of Dreams to a soldier?  A farmer?  It's easier to say "Bring the Horn here to have Legendary Heroes fight for you."

 

I did get to present part of this theory to Brandon Sanderson on his Words of Radiance tour.  He said "I'm really fond of that theory.  I can't say anything more specific, but it's a REALLY good theory."  That makes me think I'm at least on the right track.

 

Thoughts?

[Mik]

I've always believed that to be true. I once wrote something very similar about the Horn, it's function and where and how it would be used in the Last Battle:

 

What I think will happen during Tarmon Gaidon is the following:

At one point, Mat will blow the Horn of Valere and -much like what we saw at the end of TGH- that will mix Tel'aran'rhiod & the Real World.

But this time Mat doesn't blow it just anywhere (like near Falme), but he'll blow it as a last ditch effort at (or near) Shayol Ghul. That way, what Verin described as a paradox back in TDR (see the Chapter 'A Matter of Thought' (how fitting!)) won't be a paradox at all since all the worlds are one, so if the DO wins right there, the DO is freed in all worlds since TAR is part (and/or surrounding) all the worlds.

It also makes sure that the Last Battle between Shai'tan & the Dragon -again much like the TGH fight- will be a battle of willpower mostly.

 

A battle of Mind over Matter, since in TAR ' thought' is 'Matter' (see previously mentioned chapter name). Normally, Shayol Ghul can't be reached in TAR -due to Shai'tans influence-, but because the Horn is blown at the weak spot, it now can be reached.

"Thought is the arrow of Time and Memory never fades".

 

So when the Dragon is nearly deafeated and is being swallowed by the 'infinite maw' he will have a Memory of Light (since memory is the one thing that never fades). And through his sheer strong stubborn willpower, the Dragon wills the sun to Dawn in TAR right at the Heart of the Dark, fullfilling prophecy of having the Sun dawn twice *. Once that morning in the Real World and once later in the day in a mix of TAR and the Real World moments before the Shadow swallows all. He will remember Light in the one spot where there is none and will hope for salvation and Rebirth.

I think that's how he will defeat Shai'tan. The Dragon will once again bind the Soul of Shadow inside his own Soul by envelopping Darkness/Nothingness with the Light of the dawning Sun. Binding Shai'tan as it was once designed by the Creator; The strongest of Souls binding the seed of Chaos/Nothingness inside somehting evil cannot touch -a pure Soul-, through sacrificing that Soul and hoping for nothing but salvation and rebirth (the strongest oath).

The weak spot will disapear from the woven Pattern because the Dragon dies and Shai'tan is bound inside the Dragon Soul in the 'soulpool'.

The weak spot in the Pattern will only re-appear each time the Dragon is spun out and woven into the Pattern, making the saying that about the Dragon bringing the Dark One more then half right; the Soul of the Dragon that is woven in the Pattern IS the weak spot.

 

It's why Shai'tan needs the Dragon (Soul) in the right circumstances to be able to break the Wheel of Time. Ironically, the circumstances for Shai'tan to break free are the exact same circumstances that the Dragon needs to be able to re-seal Shai'tan the proper way (as described above).

 

Amen.

 

"Let the Prince of the Dawn ride again on the Winds of Time!"

Cheerio,

Mik

 

*     It's noteworthy that we've never seen a dawn -nor dusk- in TAR before, I think.

Through the Dragon we will see the first Dawn in the Unseen World.

 

original topic with some nice follow-up posts IIRC:

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/60798-day-that-dawns-twice/?do=findComment&comment=1864846

 

 

I think you're right about how he lit his pipe; it's "A Matter of Thought"...at that place at that moment.

 

And about Brandon his opinion; I couldn't give a rats ass to be honest. What Sanderson did with WoT's storyline -while it had so much potential- is nothing short of a crime.

 

 

Edited to add:

 

Here's another nice explanation that takes some more factors into consideration:

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/74879-who-will-have-the-actual-memory-of-the-light-what-will-it-be-what-will-it-do/?do=findComment&comment=2571360

 

And some nice quotes about the Horn and it's use in TGH:

 

"It was a clear note, golden as the Horn was golden. The trees around them seemed to resonate with it,

and the ground under their feet, the sky overhead. That one long sound encompassed everything."

 

"Time?" Birgitte said, smiling. "We have all of time."

 

 

RJ hid it in plain sight:

The sounding of the Horn 'ecompasses everything'; all the worlds, T'a'r and 'all of Time'.

 

BS is a blind beggar. ;)

[mb]

in another thread I was told that Rand fighting Ishamael in the sky was something the Pattern did.

 

the Horn blending the world with Telaranrhiod; I am not sure about that. the One Power and normal weapons could not do anything to the Heroes.

 

pipe lighting; my guess has been that Rand's taveren-ness lit the pipe.

[Mik]

in another thread I was told that Rand fighting Ishamael in the sky was something the Pattern did.

'It was something the Pattern did'

True -offcourse-, but an unsatisfying answer that doesn't answer how it worked at all.

It's an answer to every question concerning the Wheel of Time in the same sense that any question about our Solar System, Galaxy or Cluster can be answered with 'it was something the Universe did'.

 

Somehow, an answer like this feel 'more' right to events that impact a lot or work on a huge scale, but it tells us nothing.

The answer of "How exactly did the Pattern do this something" remains unanswered (or is avoided when the one asking the question starts nodding his head thoughtfully)

 

 

the Horn blending the world with Telaranrhiod; I am not sure about that. the One Power and normal weapons could not do anything to the Heroes.

How do the Heroes apparantly not being hurt disproves a blending of Tar (surrounding all the worlds) and Rand's real world at that time???

 

If anything, the fact that the Heroes tied to TAR could all gather in one place and meet with the Dragon Reborn who is in the real world, just like the enemies of the Dragon they fight, begs of a blend of the unseen world and the normal one.

We also saw that the battle the Seanchan and the Heroes fought was somehow linked to the battle between the Dragon Reborn and the Heart of the Dark. Rand's determination, his doubts and fears -his Strenght of Mind- and that of his opponent had a relationship with how well the other battle went.

There seemed to be a clear blending of Rand's Thoughts/ Steadfastness and the battle in the Real World.

 

And it all started when the Horn was sounded... that clear, sweet note.

 

pipe lighting; my guess has been that Rand's taveren-ness lit the pipe.

I'd say that's a guess easily disproved;

Being Ta'veren isn't a condition you inherit or are born with.

At one point, you can become one based on the Weave of the Wheel, based on the needs of the Pattern.

We know Rand became Ta'veren very early in the story (as in..somewhere right at the start of the Eye of the World)

We know he has never done anything like what he did with his pipe all throughout the books in the waking/ real world.

The only time we see 'Thought' become 'Matter' (of a sorts) is in TAR.

We have chapter names relating to TAR and explanations on how willpower and strenght of mind shape the reality of the Unseen World.

 

It's not a huge leap to say that Rand became Ta'veren because of his importance to the Pattern due to him being the Dragon Reborn.

What was the Dragon Reborns purpose/ destiny in the Pattern? To seal the Dark One away as the Creator had once envissioned the Pattern.

Rand had already fulffilled his destiny; the Web of Destiny no longer had a need for him.

 

It stands to reason that Rand no longer was Ta'veren at the moment he lit his pipe. And regardless, his Ta'veren-ness throughout all the books never gave him this kind of power.

 

 

By all appearances, Rand's Thought simply became Matter in the Real World.

 

When did we last see something like this? I think at the end of the Great Hunt... where the Grave was no Bar to the Horn's call.

 

Was the Horn sounded? Yes... recently.

 

Since Rand managed to do it in the Real World, it looks like a lingering connection between TAR and the waking world that had become "intuitively obvious" (giggle) to Rand.

[mbuehner]

I think The Horn intertwining Tel'aran'rhiod with the real world theory is right. I think TAR is the answer to a lot of the mysteries in the series- the thinness of the pattern around SG which allows all the weird DO things to occur, for instance, sounds a heck of a lot like TAR. This also explains the body swap I think.

 

I don't think the pipe had anything to do with the Horn, per se (the Horn was sounded hundreds of miles away and long before the pipe scene), but I do think Rand walked away with some new insight into the nature of reality that allows him to access elements of TAR in the real world, in a way he's a walking Horn of Valere. I'd equate it with the legendary buddhist monks with great powers to bend reality to their will.

[mb]

unless either author told differently, I take the only way for a taveren to become non-taveren is for the current incarnation to die and remain dead.  since Rand still had his memories, I take he did not die.

taveren-ness has been manifested in different ways throughout the series.  starting in Dragon Reborn, odd occurrences started happening around Rand. starting in Path of Daggers (or maybe Crown of Swords), each 3 of the taveren could see the other 2 when far away.  some of Rand's post-Dragonmount abilities might be new manifestations.  and several times in the series, each 3 taveren kind of pulled people toward them.

I recall somewhere telling that a taveren always gets his/her needs.  it could be argued that the pipe lighting was something Rand needed.

 

edit::  worlds do not necessarily need to blend for other-world residents to come.  the Narnia series seems to show this; more specifically, the book titled Prince Caspian.

and I do not recall Telaranrhiod elements coming with the Heroes.  the fog I would guess was not a Telaranrhiod element.

[jack of shadows]

@mbuehner,

"the horn was sounded hundreds of miles away and long before the pipe scene."

actually,olver blew the horn twice,the first time was in the vicinity of the field of

merrilor and the second time at thakan'dar valley so physical distance is not an

issue,however,like you,i don't believe the pipe scene had anything to do with 

real world-tel'aranrhiod mergence simply because rand lit his pipe 7-8 hours

after he sealed the bore.(even birgitte who was the last hero remaining at 

thakan'dar valley returned to tel'ararhiod in the early evening,probably two hours

before rand lit his pipe).

[bigdoug1971]

I'd like to chime in on the pipe-lighting.  I thought during Rand's fight with Shaitan, he understood/realized the battle was a battle of creating a different reality or possibility of what MIGHT be.  They basically took turns bending the pattern to their will to show the reality they wanted each other to see.  Rand didn't need to use the Power to create his scenes and was able to do it with thoughts, or his will I suppose.  When he was angry with Cadsuane over Semirhage and the angreal, he almost bent the pattern right there when he asked her if she though he could kill her where she stood just by willing or thinking of the action.  She (we) could see the pattern swirl around him as he was considering his strike.......

I think this is how he lit his impossible pipe.  He knows how to bend the pattern, or reality, to his will and doesn't need the power anymore to create what he wants, such as the lit pipe.  He's basically learned to use the same methods of the Dream World in the real world. 

[Orderofolde]

This is a theory I've been mulling over for quite awhile.  It started by my trying to figure out how the Horn of Valere exactly worked.  One thing about RJ's work I always really liked was that he had a very meticulous sense of how the One Power worked, and and how the various -angreal functioned.  He also seemed to like just giving us enough hints to figure things out for ourselves, rather than spelling them out. (See the deaths of Galldrian and Taringail)  So I figured with something that is supposed to be this important to the story, he'd know exactly what it did, how it did it, and why.  After spending probably way too much time on this, this is the conclusion I came to:

 

Bringing back the Heroes of the Horn to fight was NOT the only thing the Horn is meant to do.  I don't even think it's the main purpose of the Horn.  I wouldn't call it a side effect exactly, just the one effect that is easiest to communicate its importance to the layman of the WoT universe.

 

Summoning the Heroes is all well and good, but think about it.  The Heroes only number about 100.  (And wolves, I did not forget them.)  Yes, they are skilled, mighty, and brave.  They are NOT invulnerable and invincible.  One of them even says straight out in aMoL that they can be defeated.  Against all the hordes of Shadowspawn etc, how much of a difference can they TRULY make?  Not insignificant, but enough to actually tip the scales?  Probably not.

 

Putting that aside for now, here is something else to consider.  When Mat blows the horn in TGH, after it summons the Heroes, other weird things happen, things that are not easily explainable:  Rand is standing on clouds above the battle, Rand somehow encounters Ishamael, who seems to mostly stay in dreamshards or Tel'aran'rhiod proper.  And the progress of their struggle and the struggle below are linked somehow.  How?  Why?  These questions and the question of how exactly the horn summons the heroes led me to the following theory.

 

The Horn doesn't exactly summon the Heroes.  What it does is somehow either merge or interweave a radius of the current world with Tel'aran'rhod.  Perhaps the radius is wherever the soundwaves reach before dying out.  I don't have that part worked out yet.  This merging is what allows the Heroes to ride and affect the real world.  What is ALSO does, it make reality malleable there, much like it is more malleable in the world of dreams.   That can explain being in the clouds, it can explain encountering Ba'alzamon, and give some explanation of how Rand's fight with Ba'alzamon can be linked to the Heroes' struggles with the Seanchan.

 

I also think that this was why it was so important for the Horn to be at the true Last Battle.  It seems to be VERY important that reality be malleable when Rand is trying to seal the Bore at Shayol Ghul.  I doubt he could have forged all three powers together without it.  A fluid reality would also make something like the body swap more likely;  Rand and Moridin's sould were already linked somehow by crossing the balefire streams, and Rand was almost remade into Lews Therin when physically in Tel'aran'rhiod at the end of TFoH. (Not exactly the same, I know.  But it does let the reader know that such things are at least in the realm of possibility).  

 

I also think that this is why Rand could light his pipe at the end of aMoL.  Birgitte saying she needed to leave soon in a scene previous tends to imply that whatever effect the horn has was diminishing, but not yet totally gone.  And Rand WAS still in the vicinity.

 

I do wish I had more info on the Rand part.  I know BS won't/can't say how Rand lit his pipe, but I'd love to ask him the following questions, to look at it from another angle:

 

Is that ability unique to Rand?

Is it a repeatable ability? How repeatable?

Will Rand be able to light his pipe the same way in 10 years?  Could he have done it from Tear?  Seanchan?

(I suspect most of the answers to be "no".)

 

I think the only reason the dead Heroes part of the Horn is the main legend is that it is more relatable.  Can you imagine trying to explain the World of Dreams to a soldier?  A farmer?  It's easier to say "Bring the Horn here to have Legendary Heroes fight for you."

 

I did get to present part of this theory to Brandon Sanderson on his Words of Radiance tour.  He said "I'm really fond of that theory.  I can't say anything more specific, but it's a REALLY good theory."  That makes me think I'm at least on the right track.

 

Thoughts?

Very nice!  Lots of deep thought on the matter.  As to Rand's lighting his pipe, that is entirely possible.  However, I am more inclined to believe that since Rand wrested control of the threads of the pattern/creation away from the DO to reweave his own perfect worlds, the ability to CREATE an entire reality probably was what allowed him to weave flame into existence.  It goes with the whole "Small changes the pattern will allow" concept throughout the books.