[BASIC/STANDARD] Warcraft: War of the Ancients Mafia - GAME OVER, MAFIA WINS

[Nolder]

 

Shad

#15/16 - Weird to mention all the players you do and don't have meta on right at the start. Like you're setting up excuses for mislynches on townies maybe. (-1)

#429 - Points for question. (+1.5)

#617 - Gives reads list. Weird that he has Csarmi at the top. Says he explained it but may have missed the explanation. (0)

#717 - Good questions posed to Turin. (+1)

#788 - Says Celeste is probably town. Says Wish could be either town or scum but probably town. (0)

#799 - Basing his read on Celeste off how Wish acts. This doesn't bother me later in the game when connections are being made but it seems very early to me to draw these kinds of conclusions. (-0.5)

#1103 - Says he's getting good vibes from me. (0)

 

Kaylee

#429 - Points for question. (+1)

#831 - Agrees with Shad that Wish/Celeste are not w/w. (0)

#1043 - Posts reads list. (0)

 

Zander

#283 - Like this post. (+0.5)

#340 - Good post. (+0.5)

#429 - Points for question. (-1.5)

#501 - Posts reads list. (0)

#523 - Good response. (+0.5)

#843 - Says towniest player is Nomi, scummiest is Wish. (0)

#853-865 - ISO's Wish in 6 parts. Votes her at the end of it. (0)

 

Turin

#429 - Points for question. (-0.5)

#681 - Gives reads list. (0)

#1004 - Says Xander is now firmly town for him. (0)

#1061 - Says Nomi is probably mafia. (0)

#1079 - Votes Wish, says Nomi and Shad aren't being lynched today. (0)

#1114 - Claims Doctor. (0)

 

Pizza

#136 - Gives a reads list. (0)

#429 - Points for question. (0)

#605 - Updates reads list. (0)

#794 - Doesn't want to lynch Celeste. Clarifies later that she's an easy mislynch. (0)

#1084 - Says he'd lynch either Kaylee or Csarmi if forced to choose 2 lynch candidates. (0)

 

Csarmi

#752 - Says Alanna and Lenlo are never w/w. (0)

#941 - Says Cass is looking town. (0)

#1039 - Posts a sort of reads list. (0)

 

 

Alanna

#429 - Points for question. (+1.5)

#612 - Posts read notes. (+0.5)

#629 - Continues posting her read notes. (0)

#632 - Posts reads list. (0)

#847 - Gives thoughts on a few things. (0)

 

Lenlo

#252 - I like the response about meta. (+0.5)

#307 - I like this response. Lenlo is being very practical this game. (+0.5)

#429 - Points for question. (+1)

#648 - Doesn't like being townread by Alanna. Presses her very hard about it. (0)

#1126 - Posts reads list. Votes Celeste. (0)

 

Wish-tree

#141 - Claims to have good reads on Cass and Celeste calls both town. (0)

#371 - Don't like this response. It's offputting. (-0.5)

#429 - Points for question. (+1)

 

Pralaya

 

Celeste

#335 - Says she unvoted because her vote was a joke. (0)

#429 - Points for question. (-2)

#438 - Claims to not be an early game player. She wants a flip. Noted. (0)

#500 - Votes Shad. Doesn't like his vibes and tones. (0)

#793 - Never answers my question. (-0.5)

#879 - Unvotes Shad. Says he's shaping up. (0)

#918 - Celeste posts a reads list. (0)

 

Cass 

#44 - Says she's slightly wary of Alanna and asks if she's a wolf. This is weird because it's only page 3 and Alanna has posted a total of 3 times. There's literally nothing to be wary of. I mean if that's just a joke/excuse to engage and ask if she's a wolf ok but it just stood out to me. (0)

#109 - Explanation for why she is "wary" of Xander and Alanna is lacking. It's full of excuses. She even says it's too early to be of consequence. What? Then why did you say it? (-1)

#429 - Points for question. (-2)

#1386 - Votes for Csarmi. No reason. (0)

 

One thing I want to point out with my notes is that all these 0's have the potential to change given new information.

If I see someone vote someone else and mark it down as 0 but latter on I have a town or scum read on that person and read it as a good move or a bus I'll reassign the points.

[Nolder]

I can already see Day 2 is going to be a day of ISO's as well.

Pralaya in particular who I have no notes on is going to need special scrutiny to resolve I think.

[wish-tree]

Hi!

 

I'm back

 

Can do some ISOing now

[alannalynn]

If csarmi really did ask to be bused, which is what Pral is saying, I think it would be Cass. She was on really early, perfect spot.

 

Hmmm

 

I'm not sure i want to go down that road yet though.

 

Where is Zander? He's not putting in any night work?

[wish-tree]

If csarmi really did ask to be bused, which is what Pral is saying, I think it would be Cass. She was on really early, perfect spot.

 

Hmmm

 

I'm not sure i want to go down that road yet though.

 

Where is Zander? He's not putting in any night work?

That's a really interesting read.

 

Will keep in mind.

[alannalynn]

I'm kind of around, doing friend things today so I'll be in and out but I'm definitely not casing from my phone.

 

Still iffy about nolder, will need to read those sections myself and come to the conclusion on my own

[alannalynn]

Csarmi zander cass scum team?

 

Or csarmi zander Pral

 

Csarmi Turin Zander

 

Idk

[Nolder]

BTW it should be noted for accuracy, at least two of the off-wagon people were off-wagon because I asked them to not hammer.

 

That gives Celeste and Nolder a pass for not voting Csarmi, and technically everyone.

 

That part of the analysis should be null, focus only on other aspects after Csarmi got to about L-2 ish.

You don't have to give me a pass. I wasn't going to hammer him anyway.

[alannalynn]

Scattered thoughtso

[wish-tree]

I'm kind of around, doing friend things today so I'll be in and out but I'm definitely not casing from my phone.

 

Still iffy about nolder, will need to read those sections myself and come to the conclusion on my own

Okay, gonna reply to your 3 AM casings.

Those were pretty good.

[alannalynn]

Wish respond to them keeping in mind csarmi as a martyr for mafia team for me please

[alannalynn]

Csarmi zander cass scum team?

 

Or csarmi zander Pral

 

Csarmi Turin Zander

 

Idk

forgot about lenlo

 

I need him to respond to the case on him. Regardless, I want pressure on him tomorrow

[wish-tree]

Wish respond to them keeping in mind csarmi as a martyr for mafia team for me please

already noted!

[Kaylee]

 

 

 

This whole case on Csarmi looks odd. This was around the time Cass voted Csarmi. The points here looks very forced. As if finding out excuses to vote someone. Typically, I see this when scum tries to nudge and make a case on town. I would have been fine if it was like Csarmi is inactive, he is not very focused etc. That was the consensus reason why nearly everyone had csarmi in the red pile. These points do not look that natural.

 

Especially, sentences like these

 

Tress always provides safe claims for her scum teams. - Huh? First of all, I don't know how many Tress games has Cass played to make such a statement. Second, look at the quote - what was the need to bring this up? To reinforce the point that Csarmi is fake-claiming? (Incidentally, csarmi claimed a few posts later).

 

 

Csarmi, I am Town, but you are one who has told me several times you've correctly read me Scum early in other games when others are clearing me for relaxed and happy tone - That "Ï am town". Would a townie say that in this context? An annoyed townie would be correcting him, questioning him. Not trying to express that he/she is town out of place.

 

Gun to my head, I would say Cass bused Csarmi.

Maybe

[wish-tree]

I discovered something that I think clears Penny/me

[Nolder]

I discovered something that I think clears Penny/me

Please share.

[wish-tree]

First things first:

 

Operating off assumptions that csarmi/Zander are wolves, and csarmi allowed himself to be bussed (or even asked for it) for town credit--

 

1. Cass

 

 

 

Csarmi (7) Cass Wish Kaylee Alanna Lenlo Zander Pizza

Starting With Cass. Her vote was way before Pizza's case and the shift to Csarmi. This is her post here. She explains what she sees of his meta. At this point Csarmi was receiving no heat and he was her strongest scum lean. She follows through after the Kaylee case and still keeps her vote on Csarmi stating she's okay with a lynch between the two of Pral or Csarmi, that link is here. Again supports her vote here with this after Wish's request of more explanation:

"I've only played with Town Csarmi. Strong impressions - he is interested and active in hunting scum. He challenges absolutely anybody and anything he finds remotely scummy/stupid, and he challenges them hard and he is not at all easy to please. Completely unlike here, imo."

I can still see Cass working in other areas and is worried about not having meta on Csarmi's scum game, but she cases him a little here too and here.

Csarmi on Cass: He town reads her quickly and doesn't budge.

"Cass is looking town. Sounds genuine and not even the least bit stressed"

"Manic Cass is townic Cass. Agree with her self-assessment, Pizza's approach, and just about ready to clear Cass there. Think I'm at Shad and Cass as villagers.... (snip) "

"Oh righ5 reads stuff. Dont lynch Shad, Cass and Len ever. I believe Turin. Second tier is Pray and Kaylee. "
"Cass i am totally sure of. Len/Shad very close."

 

Other than that he seems to be encouraging her to play and apologizes that he couldn't' talk to her in real time.
Conclusion: Cass probably town.

 

 

 

There is a definite attempt by csarmi to be csarming to those he town reads - Cass seems to be one in this example, Kaylee another. Compliments on play style, etc, etc. Compare how he interacts with Zander (mild trolling, compliments, attention). He ignores everyone else. 

The possibility that I think is most convincing to me is:

extreme distancing. Does csarmi hard bus? The beginning accusation of Cass not acting like her towny self is soon dropped, with little to no explanation. Suspicious.

 

I think in the yesterday's situation, csarmi and Zander would have wanted to be as dissassociated with any partner/partners (how many mafia would we have? 3-4?) they have. It would have been best to solidly town read any remaining mafia and put them higher in reads list to ensure that the remaining mafia survive. Not a good look to ignore or spend too much time on them.

 

It is more possible for Cass to be mafia, then, over Kaylee. 

 

2, Me/Penny

 

 

 

Csarmi (7) Cass Wish Kaylee Alanna Lenlo Zander Pizza

 

Wish:
Mentions Csarmi and Pral are back in thread. In her next reads list says Csarmi "pretty much null and all fluff"
Complains about the inactives, mentioning Csarmi, says out of Pral, CS, and Nolder that Nolder looks the best and Csarmi is in her list of lynch candidates with Pral, Lenlo, Nolder, Kaylee. Her next reads list has Csarmi at the bottom of the list. This is still before Pizza's case and switch which was on page 83. Mentions that she wants Csarmi to show up and play, he's still in her WTL. "I'd like to give Kaylee and Csarmi more time" This is after the Cass vote. She actually follows this up with voting Pral. Here she asks Cass for more information on Csarmi which Cass responded to, you can see it linked in Cass's Csarmi ISO. She does like that Csarmi is making an effort to catch up.

Here she starts digging into Kaylee and actually takes a swipe at him

There's a lot of mentions of Csarmi on this next page, but this is post Kaylee case and Wish is digging into Kaylee's games to see if Pizza's case has merit. I'll c/p some comments, but it's all there in her ISO, as well on page 7:
   "I'm less willing to lynch Kaylee still want a csarmi, Pralaya, Nolder lynch. Nolder is putting in more work than either Pralaya/csarmi, so take it in csarmi>Pralaya>Nolder order."
   "So you think he [csarmi] set her [kaylee] up? Read her as town and then proceeded to give you info to condemn her because of her change of meta?"
   "His claiming and then leaving is also not a good look."
   "Don't think the timing is weird. Shad did ask him to claim. And iirc, thread kinda pressured him to full-claim. Agree with Pizza's point on csarmi setting Kaylee up"

Anddd she just keeps pushing for his lynch so I'm not going to quote everything. Her vote here

 

UH, LAINEY
 
HELP
 
My dark green is fighting with another one of my light greens
 
I want to vote csarmi, but I'm really tempted to vote Zander because he has been tunneling me all game, even though I found his other behavior townie.
 
what are your thoughts?

This is 100% Lenny, there's no way she's mafia.

Link!!! She doesn't try to push onto Zander even with Pizza going at him on thread. This was a perfect opportunity and she didn't take it.

Csarmi on Wish:
".and yes. Penny. Lenny. Zanny."
"I cant tell Wish and Cel3ste apart."

And that's it. He responds to Wish asking about Csarmi setting Kaylee up but that was mainly in response to Pizza. No mentions of Wish's alignment whatsoever.

 

Conclusion: Wish is town. No doubts.

 

 

 

Really like Lainey's points. Just a few notes irt the csarmi/me/penny interactions:

 

csarmi doesn't even treat us as a separate slot. He mentions us in conjunction with Zander (Zanny), which in fact looks like an attempt to link Penny and myself to him and Zander. Along with Zander's narrative of me being Mafia and hard tunneling me, this looks to me that there is an attempt to link me to csarmi/Zander. Zander does like to hard bus as scum, that's true. But csarmi hopping on it as well? Unlikely. 

 

Especially when there was a lot of attention on both Celeste and myself and wagons there, csarmi just about ignores both of us with a passing comment, and focuses on greener pastures. Really strange. 

 

(also note the Lenny/Penny mixup, I can't tell them apart excuse to not read us.)

 

 

 

I read you town on approach and stress level Cass. I think you wolfing while Cory h3lping you would be hard. Not finding the right words sorry. You would wanna prove more and be somewhat froz3n? Is that the right wording?

I think this is Csarmi trying to shade cass. Looking into his post at the moment.

 

 

Early shading, the same as I noted. Nice, Lassie. Doing the work that makes others see you as town.

 

As a general rule I try to ignore anything a scum player has said once they know they're getting lynched.

 

You have to WIFOM it out, imo. (Also, I believe csarmi's Cass post was done earlier, before he knew he was getting lynched. Will go back and check)

 

 

Celeste, how do you feel about wish aorn?

I should be asleep now but one last post  

 

The way she analyzed and never actually stopped scum hunting while defending herself is very town like for Wish. I feel even better than before about my read on her.

 

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence :3

 

 

3. Kaylee 

 

 

 

Csarmi (7) Cass Wish Kaylee Alanna Lenlo Zander Pizza

 

Kaylee on Csarmi:
Of note: Csarmi was the one feeding games to Pizza on her play-style.

Here a reads list "Csarmi- Null I have a real hard time reading him."

Here another mention after Pizza asks who she'd lynch:

"I'd like to bit honestly I'm not sure. I'd vote Csarmi then. I've given thoughts and reads. I just don't feel strongly enough about anyone to push a lynch. I won't just to save myself either. That wouldn't help town win. Unfortunately D1 is hard for me so I often struggle.
I'm following along and being aS active as I can. The only other I'm not sold on my list is Nolder. I'd like to not say as to why just yet as it depends on how he proceeds. "

Here she unvotes Turin after his claim says she'd vote him since she doesn't have much information on him.

Lists him in the current WTL and again and again and says he's a null POE who she'd vote and again (I've personally never wanted to lynch someone this badly whom I know nothing about and have no read on)

She asks Cass why she's voting Csarmi

"I can't remember what you've said about him" even though Kaylee has voiced intention of wanting to vote him and she has nothing on him.

 

"Csarmi: why shoud we not lynch you today?"

Still in her POE (post Kaylee case)

Happy that someone is town reading her: Csarmi

Comments on Nolder's reads list that she's not sold on Csarmi being town

As of this post, she still has Csarmi in her null POE but likes that he's reading her correctly. I find it hard to believe that she still has no read on Csarmi.

"So lynch me or someone who wants to keep me around? That's what this sounds like. " LINK

Is swayed to vote Csarmi based on his town lean of her after Pizza explains what he means by Csarmi feeding information and how it's suspicious. Feels easy

Vote on Csarmi

End of day she makes sure to push for a lynch, which is a good look, especially seeing as the main train was Csarmi.

Csarmi on Kaylee:
Reads Kaylee villa very early
"Kaylee looks villagery."
"Pure town!Kaylee process..." LINK

And after Pizza's case, he just starts flooding the thread with why Kaylee is town and wants to discredit the case.

Conclusion: Kaylee spewed town. Either she's town and was awkward about reading him and he was 100% about her to the point that he did himself in, or they're mafia together and didn't discuss how she would read him in the QT, she pretended to be put off by him town reading her, and Csarmi sunk two team members by defending her. Unlikely.

 

 

Agreed with the Kaylee case. It's strange that csarmi strongly read Kaylee as town, even after Pizza made a case on her being out of her ordinary behavior. It is also strange that Zander did not have many thoughts on Kaylee before Pizza made his case about her, and that reminds me, I don't think we've heard Zander's thoughts on this csarmi/Kaylee interaction.

 

If they were all mafia together, this interaction would draw unnecessary attention to Kaylee and make it difficult for her to survive to a win. Zander not really digging into the Kaylee case is not a good look for Kaylee, but that makes me think even more that Kaylee is town.

 

About the only thing in this entire game that bugs me about Wish is her progression on Zander.  I dunno.

 

He was at the bottom of my light greens for scum reading me right off the bat. The explanation of his meta from Pizza really drove him down a few notches, plus the meta reads from you and others drove the nail into his coffin for me. Will pull up your posts and explain my thought progression, if you would like.

 

 

The cat gif that I posted makes me really uncomfortable. I want to catch the kitty.

Declawing a cat is pretty mean. It's like cutting off someone's fingers. :\

 

I agree... but relevant, how?

[wish-tree]

@Mods: can I edit the spoiler formatting?

[wish-tree]

 

I discovered something that I think clears Penny/me

Please share.

 

just posted. Cass summary is within the spoiler.

[wish-tree]

Posting Lenlo and other quotes next.

[wish-tree]

thank goodness for autosave <3

[Nolder]

It's interesting but I don't really see how it clears you.

[Kaylee]

Me either

[wish-tree]

 

4. Lenlo

 

 

 

Csarmi (7) Cass Wish Kaylee Alanna Lenlo Zander Pizza

 

*note: I changed Kaylee to a light green to reflect doubt

Links to other analyses: Cass, Wish, Kaylee, Alanna

Lenlo on Csarmi:
First mention is in a reads list "Grey/light red, do something. Might vote you for the heck of it."

Reaction to his claim "Why... Why are we claiming."

More doubts on the claim "Full claim or dont claim at all. Character claims mean nothing."

This one is in response to Wish saying Csarmi is getting lynched: "Is he now? And when was this decided?" The reaction here is kind of weird. At this point Cass and Pizza are on the Csarmi train (I think I have that right) and Wish is going back and looking at Kaylee evidence while Pizza is switching things over to Csarmi pretty quickly.

Doesn't think Csarmi is lying about his character, and if he is "there's no way he lives through the game. I don't think he's lying"

I find it odd that Lenlo neither mentions nor jumps on the Kaylee case, nor the Csarmi case. He does mediate a little with the Pizza/Zander fight but that's all I see so far. He questions why Cass isn't around.

Then this: 

"Pizza/Zander fight is stupid. Honestly, the only people who I /want/ to lynch today are Celeste and the missing wonder brothers, Pral and Csarmi. Everyone else has been pretty good or I think will be figured out easier later.
Really ill lynch anyone that isnt Pizza, Zander, Nolder, Shad, Turin."

Throws shade at Zander for his habit of bussing teammates (that would be Pizza in this case). (Note: Zander/Pizza fight distraction?)

This: "For me its Csarmi/Zander today, leaning Csarmi." and a VOTE

He is quick to get in on the town core talk with Pizza Shad Nolder, still thinks Zander is town though.

Very much wants to lynch Celeste

But he is sticking around for the Csarmi lynch; wolves don't want to wait around for a flip of their teammate. And I don't see him trying to gain traction elsewhere. He didn't add flames to the Pizza/Zander fight.

Csarmi on Lenlo:
"Also Len/Laine are literally never w/w there."
"Think I'm at Shad and Cass as villagers, Pizza and Leno as possible villagers."
"Vanilla Town And yea Len we have been through this before. I shall humour you." (expanding on his claim)
"Dont lynch Shad, Cass and Len ever. I believe Turin."
"Cass i am totally sure of. Len/Shad very close."
"Leno I just love you man."

Anddd that's it

Conclusion: Pending.
I can see this both ways right now. And I already have a strong read so I'll explain the "Lenlo is mafia" side.

The first mention in his reads list could be he's frustrated with a teammate and has to suspect him because he's not being active enough on thread. The other posts about Csarmi claiming: frustration/confusion again.

Then the post where he said "Is he now? And when was this decided?" shows Lenlo is completely out of the loop. He hasn't paid attention to the Kaylee case, didn't get involved with Pizza's case on Csarmi, isn't involved in the thread with like under 20 hours until deadline. He doesn't know what's going on, basically.

In talks about Csarmi's character, he believes him and says that if he's lying, it'll be taken care of basically. Easy way to add support to a character claim and give it credit, even though we all know mafia are generally given fake claims. (I also know nothing about WoW so yeah.. I'm here to play mafia lol)

He still shows interest in voting Celeste, mentioning lynching her twice instead of Csarmi while his train is gaining traction, but doesn't make any move to switch the trains over (granted, this is more of a townie move, he's looking elsewhere).

On the other side of the road, Csarmi is quick to read Lenlo and call him town and tells us never to lynch him. This could be for a scum mate or for town.

If we're going with Lenlo being town though, this could make sense all the same. Lenlo would still be frustrated with Csarmi for not being in the game (Nolderesque?) and frustrated with the claim. You could read the "Is he now? And when was this decided?" as surprise becasue he's literally not caught up in the thread at the moment. He does NOT actively try to derail the lynch onto Celeste or Zander or Kaylee or anyone and ends up voting Csarmi. Looks good responding with a quick town core to Pizza's question and then sticking around to see the flip.

I could go either way with Lenlo right now, so I'm going to move him down to a light green.

 

 

 

Really interesting. Especially with interactions irt csarmi's claim. The reaction to not being caught up in thread as I mentioned yesterday was off-putting. 

The fluffing/buddying attention that he receives from csarmi is also similar to the Zander/csarmi interaction.

 

It's also pretty bad for him to not actively advocate for a different lynch, and in the end just sheeps Pizza (posted that Pizza should make the decision). He did not go after his strongest lynch candidates yesterday, but instead resolves onto a consensus vote with little reasons given.

 

 

 

 

The cat gif that I posted makes me really uncomfortable. I want to catch the kitty.

Declawing a cat is pretty mean. It's like cutting off someone's fingers. :\

 

 this is horrible

 

I literally de-friend anyone that says declawing is a good thing.

 

I'm pretty sure I never mentioned declawing..  :(

 

Alanna
Turin*

Pizza
Wish
Cass
Shad

Kaylee
Lenlo

Pral
Celeste
Zander
Nolder

 

No complaints about Nolder. I need to look over his slot. He's going to sit there for now because of raisons.

Okay, Nolder next. What do you think about my thoughts about Lenny/Penny - csarmi mixup?

 

Anyway, I have no idea who led the lynch or what happened.

What I do know is that Csarmi hates being scum. Out of the handful of scum games of his I have seen, he tried getting replaced in 2 of them. I wouldn't be surprised if he asked to be bused ( he did that in one game I was scum with him).

I would want to read through keeping that in mind.

 

+ points to Pralaya for pointing this out, if it's true.

[wish-tree]

It's interesting but I don't really see how it clears you.

I'm more interested in clearing Penny as part of my town core.

 

Me either

^