[Advanced] Nightmare Before Christmas - Town Wins!

[Lenlo]

 

Who is Lord Commander? Also the nulls are ordered. Everything else isnt.

How can the nulls be ordered if you don't know who one of them is?

 

Thats why he is in the middle. The most null position to be.

[Shad_]

I dont agree with the assessment about Dice irt his Tone.  I think he can fake that pretty well as he did in Matrix.  I'm not saying he's necessarily scummy here.  But your reasoning for town reading him is incorrect imo.

I am completely and utterly incapable of articulating my method for reading Dice, but our first game together aside, the only time I ever scum read him was when he was actually scum. Yeah, I ended up giving him a solid town billet before long, but something at some point pinged me enough to wtl him for ~half of D1. I wouldn't call his scum tell a tone thing, really. He just dropped a few early reads that I absolutely did not buy as honest opinions.  But as the game progressed he found more Dice-esque arguments to latch onto, then the Zander caboose started chugging and he was able to safely lurk mostly non-committal through to the end.  Considering a lot of his town cred came from the argument with Pizza in that game, and that was all centered on out-of-game matters, BFG's "As mafia Dice has difficulty replicating that 'tone' about in game stuff, he can fake it pretty well on out of game stuff, or mechanics, but not game stuff." might hit the nail on the head.

 

That being said, town!Dice has an uncanny knack for becoming mechanically cleared and I've had no need to try and read him beyond D1 or D2 in the overwhelming majority of games we have played together.

[Nolder]

 

 

0/3.  Some other day we will play "guess a movie that Shad has actually seen". 

Akira?

 

Now you're talking!

 

There's hope for you yet.

 

Welcome to the game btw.

[Zander?]

 

 

 

 

Meh I dont hate your response but I'm not overly impressed by it either. But let me ask this instead, how do you feel about his responses after he provided his quotes?

Worse than before.

 

I asked him to provide his thoughts on my interactions with Nomi.

He said he already had and when I asked him to prove it he showed posts about thoughts of what Nomi had said BEFORE I interacted with him.

It was literally not what I was asking about.

 

This further leads me to believe that he's avoiding giving his thoughts or picking a side as much as he can.

 

No you didnt. I said I had posted thoughts on you/pizza/bob. You asked for quotes. You never specified they had to be about your small chat about what games he used.

 

My original question:

 

I'm more than capable of defending myself. Was that really your motivation here?

Regardless, I had plenty of back and forth with Nomi last night so his position should be clearer to you now.

What are your thoughts?

 

Avoid, deflect, deviate...anything to keep away from the game as it is now.

That's what you look like you're doing to me. Not going to mince words.

You can say I wasn't specific enough if you want to but you're not winning any points with me when you do so.

And I think my question here is quite clear but others may judge for themselves.

 

You pointed out this supposed "pattern" of asking for peoples opinions on you/Pizza/NB.

I said had given my opinions.

You asked for quotes

I gave quotes

Then you come back and say I answered the wrong question

I dispute this

You come back and throw a different question than the one I originally tried to answer in my face.

I laugh at you.

Then I post this.

 

And I dont care about winning points with you. I dont need your points, I need you to talk about whats going on ITT rather than these poor attempts at cases on someone who is not getting lynched today.

 

 

Len just wanna say...where was that spunk before??  I like it!!!!

[Shad_]

 

 

 

0/3.  Some other day we will play "guess a movie that Shad has actually seen". 

Akira?

 

Now you're talking!

 

There's hope for you yet.

 

Welcome to the game btw.

 

 

Cheers!

 

I might lynch you.    

[Zander?]

 

I dont agree with the assessment about Dice irt his Tone.  I think he can fake that pretty well as he did in Matrix.  I'm not saying he's necessarily scummy here.  But your reasoning for town reading him is incorrect imo.

I am completely and utterly incapable of articulating my method for reading Dice, but our first game together aside, the only time I ever scum read him was when he was actually scum. Yeah, I ended up giving him a solid town billet before long, but something at some point pinged me enough to wtl him for ~half of D1. I wouldn't call his scum tell a tone thing, really. He just dropped a few early reads that I absolutely did not buy as honest opinions.  But as the game progressed he found more Dice-esque arguments to latch onto, then the Zander caboose started chugging and he was able to safely lurk mostly non-committal through to the end.  Considering a lot of his town cred came from the argument with Pizza in that game, and that was all centered on out-of-game matters, BFG's "As mafia Dice has difficulty replicating that 'tone' about in game stuff, he can fake it pretty well on out of game stuff, or mechanics, but not game stuff." might hit the nail on the head.

 

That being said, town!Dice has an uncanny knack for becoming mechanically cleared and I've had no need to try and read him beyond D1 or D2 in the overwhelming majority of games we have played together.

 

 

Well he's not mechanically cleared here so what are your overall thoughts on Dice atp?

[Shad_]

I think he's probably town.  Would put him right around where I have you, under BFG and Lenlo.

[Zander?]

I think he's probably town.  Would put him right around where I have you, under BFG and Lenlo.

 

 

Did you do a reads list Shad?  Maybe I missed it or are you just going off the top of your head? 

[Lenlo]

*Waits for Nolder to respond. Maybe post something not about me.*

This thing working?

[unvote][v]Nolder[/v]

[Askthepizzaguy]

 

I'm more jokey and diplomatic, and more in control of how people view me, and also more in control of my emotions and reactions to people, when I scum.

 

Can I be the moron who town reads someone based on their self-explained scum meta?

 

Yeah, I know. For most people, if they describe their own meta, it's to their advantage. I'm different.

 

This is lengthy and it may not be anything you care to read, but anyone wants to get to know me better, all of this is true and factual about me:

 

 

I know what I do when I'm scum, I can point it out, and show you how it's different in my town game.

 

Pick any scum game of mine and any town game of mine, and you will see the concern about finding scum is far higher than my concern for how I'm viewed by the group.

 

I may make a defense for a few minutes, maybe an hour, if I'm under serious vote threat. But my focus invariably is offense.

 

When I scum, I give the appearance of that, but never do I begin too many entanglements where a simple OMGUS vote from each of the persons I'm accusing would end my wolfing.

 

Because OMGUS is a common reaction to vote and suspicion, and especially on D1 I don't want to start enough fights to die based on something as easy to avoid as not pissing off too many players.

 

People are hard to read sometimes, but their behavior, ESPECIALLY as a group, is largely predictable.

 

Individually people have their own ideas, thoughts, beliefs. But, as a group, they behave similarly, because group psychology is different from singular psychology.

 

If I want to avoid being lynched day one as a wolf, I will, because it's seriously very easy. And that's mainly my goal as a wolf on day one. The amount of times I've actually been lynched cold, dead to rights, as a wolf, is probably 2 times out of 52 games as scum.

 

Day one as a townie, I have a wholly different agenda. If I get lynched, I die and am revealed as townie. My suspicions remain in the thread and NOW, they're suspicions made by a known townie.

 

There is no counter-argument. They're suspicions made by a townie. They can be wrong, but they aren't scum.

 

Different agenda. And it's nothing I ever hide, because the advantage to me, as scum, and the effectiveness of it, to avoid the D1 lynch, is through the roof, and because I'm wordy, and because I'm considered shifty, I can say all these things and they will never be used against me.

 

I constantly explain the difference between my town game and my scum game, because I'm town a whole hell of a lot more than I'm scum.

 

I also routinely win as scum, and I only change up my game when I'm forced to by the skill set of the people I'm playing with.

 

I will not change my scum game until the group changes theirs.

 

This has become a speech, but. I challenge anyone to say any of the above isn't true.

 

I can literally list all my scum games for you, and have you pick one at random from the list. And I'll show you that me-avoiding behavior on day one that never gets called out.

 

Then I can list all my recent town games in the past 2 years, and pick any one at random. You'll see me being aggressive. Far more aggressive, to more individuals.

 

Well, there was a game where everyone basically posted once that round, so too did I. But the general point is the same.

 

It's a clear difference and it's a fundamental one. It goes to the core of what I intend to accomplish, based on my win condition as either alignment.

 

It's such a tell, and it's so real.

 

Now, I'm the one saying it. But I've never lied about my scum meta before, even as scum. I go the opposite way and literally claim to be scum in most of the games I've ever been scum, just to see if I can get away with it, and I do.

 

I'm different from other players, very different, in this regard. Metagaming is what it is, I don't like that aspect of play, but people remember how you behave from game to game.

 

You can't delete that impression of someone from your brain. It will influence your opinions regardless.

 

Because I know that, my metagame is extremely consistent and very disciplined. That's why you should weigh my description of my own meta more heavily.

 

As scum, my challenge isn't to beat a specific town. My challenge is to beat Askthepizzaguy-the-townie, and entertain the specific town I'm fighting against.

 

I need to match my town meta as closely as possible, while making enough variations to my game to accomplish a scum agenda and SURVIVE.

 

I have no such need as town, unless it's the late game and every single townie life matters because it's LYLO, and my goal is to die before that time as town so I never throw the game by being Mister Suspicious swindler guy everyone distrusts but is still alive. Because the differences are subtle, even when I explicitly state what they are, no one bothers to follow up on those differences. And I still need to exhibit those differences, in my opinion, to achieve my goals in either alignment, because being lynched D1 does not help my team as scum. It doesn't really help me as town, either, but I need to take that risk in order to have any shot whatsoever at finding and destroying a scumbag on day one, putting pressure on them.

 

I have to find several candidates, because in the past when I've focused on one person, the odds are really stacked against you, and Day One is my most information-poor day, and I'm a behavioral analyst. I can't analyze the differences in behavior if they aren't there yet. I have to, absolutely have to, put pressure out there and get some scumbags feeling uncomfortable. I can't do anything with calm, cool, collected scumbags under no pressure, on day one. There's no behavioral differences to read unless they're unforced blunders.

 

But they will hold true, those differences between my town and scum games, because I have determined through experience that nothing is better for me when I am scum on day one than to simply get past that day and get to the time where I can begin murdering the dangerous people. And those differences have held true for a very long time. Even stating outright these differences, I'm still going to do this as scum until the people I play with change what THEY do. And although I'm a townie in this game, if I were to channel my scum self for one thought out of this entire wall of text, my wager is that they will not change. Not substantially enough. It will be disregarded. If they do change I will be pleasantly surprised and I will have to play more risky as scum on D1, but not before then. Never before then.

 

[Nolder]

 

 

 

 

Meh I dont hate your response but I'm not overly impressed by it either. But let me ask this instead, how do you feel about his responses after he provided his quotes?

Worse than before.

 

I asked him to provide his thoughts on my interactions with Nomi.

He said he already had and when I asked him to prove it he showed posts about thoughts of what Nomi had said BEFORE I interacted with him.

It was literally not what I was asking about.

 

This further leads me to believe that he's avoiding giving his thoughts or picking a side as much as he can.

 

No you didnt. I said I had posted thoughts on you/pizza/bob. You asked for quotes. You never specified they had to be about your small chat about what games he used.

 

My original question:

 

I'm more than capable of defending myself. Was that really your motivation here?

Regardless, I had plenty of back and forth with Nomi last night so his position should be clearer to you now.

What are your thoughts?

 

Avoid, deflect, deviate...anything to keep away from the game as it is now.

That's what you look like you're doing to me. Not going to mince words.

You can say I wasn't specific enough if you want to but you're not winning any points with me when you do so.

And I think my question here is quite clear but others may judge for themselves.

 

You pointed out this supposed "pattern" of asking for peoples opinions on you/Pizza/NB.

I said had given my opinions.

You asked for quotes

I gave quotes

Then you come back and say I answered the wrong question

I dispute this

You come back and throw a different question than the one I originally tried to answer in my face.

I laugh at you.

Then I post this.

 

And I dont care about winning points with you. I dont need your points, I need you to talk about whats going on ITT rather than these poor attempts at cases on someone who is not getting lynched today.

 

We'll let the others decide, obviously.

We're just going in circles now.

[Askthepizzaguy]

NETA: 2 out of 52 on day one, should I say. If you're not counting turbos, which I don't. Different dynamics.

[Nolder]

Alright I'm caught up.

 

I was hoping to hear more from Thane and Taborline today but I guess that's not going to happen.

I'm going to do some rereading and come back with a reads list.

 

[unvote]

[Lenlo]

#686 Attention as of post #686 Nolder has turned tail and run. He has realized he was wrong, but instead of owning up to it he runs away to hide behind the skirts of "others". He waits for them to form his defense for him, rather than making one himself and he continues to not talk about anything else of relevance.

 

This has been a PSA from your neighborhood Lenlo. Stay safe town and remember, always lynch wolves.

[Zander?]

 

 

I'm more jokey and diplomatic, and more in control of how people view me, and also more in control of my emotions and reactions to people, when I scum.

 

Can I be the moron who town reads someone based on their self-explained scum meta?

 

Yeah, I know. For most people, if they describe their own meta, it's to their advantage. I'm different.

 

This is lengthy and it may not be anything you care to read, but anyone wants to get to know me better, all of this is true and factual about me:

 

 

I know what I do when I'm scum, I can point it out, and show you how it's different in my town game.

 

Pick any scum game of mine and any town game of mine, and you will see the concern about finding scum is far higher than my concern for how I'm viewed by the group.

 

I may make a defense for a few minutes, maybe an hour, if I'm under serious vote threat. But my focus invariably is offense.

 

When I scum, I give the appearance of that, but never do I begin too many entanglements where a simple OMGUS vote from each of the persons I'm accusing would end my wolfing.

 

Because OMGUS is a common reaction to vote and suspicion, and especially on D1 I don't want to start enough fights to die based on something as easy to avoid as not pissing off too many players.

 

People are hard to read sometimes, but their behavior, ESPECIALLY as a group, is largely predictable.

 

Individually people have their own ideas, thoughts, beliefs. But, as a group, they behave similarly, because group psychology is different from singular psychology.

 

If I want to avoid being lynched day one as a wolf, I will, because it's seriously very easy. And that's mainly my goal as a wolf on day one. The amount of times I've actually been lynched cold, dead to rights, as a wolf, is probably 2 times out of 52 games as scum.

 

Day one as a townie, I have a wholly different agenda. If I get lynched, I die and am revealed as townie. My suspicions remain in the thread and NOW, they're suspicions made by a known townie.

 

There is no counter-argument. They're suspicions made by a townie. They can be wrong, but they aren't scum.

 

Different agenda. And it's nothing I ever hide, because the advantage to me, as scum, and the effectiveness of it, to avoid the D1 lynch, is through the roof, and because I'm wordy, and because I'm considered shifty, I can say all these things and they will never be used against me.

 

I constantly explain the difference between my town game and my scum game, because I'm town a whole hell of a lot more than I'm scum.

 

I also routinely win as scum, and I only change up my game when I'm forced to by the skill set of the people I'm playing with.

 

I will not change my scum game until the group changes theirs.

 

This has become a speech, but. I challenge anyone to say any of the above isn't true.

 

I can literally list all my scum games for you, and have you pick one at random from the list. And I'll show you that me-avoiding behavior on day one that never gets called out.

 

Then I can list all my recent town games in the past 2 years, and pick any one at random. You'll see me being aggressive. Far more aggressive, to more individuals.

 

Well, there was a game where everyone basically posted once that round, so too did I. But the general point is the same.

 

It's a clear difference and it's a fundamental one. It goes to the core of what I intend to accomplish, based on my win condition as either alignment.

 

It's such a tell, and it's so real.

 

Now, I'm the one saying it. But I've never lied about my scum meta before, even as scum. I go the opposite way and literally claim to be scum in most of the games I've ever been scum, just to see if I can get away with it, and I do.

 

I'm different from other players, very different, in this regard. Metagaming is what it is, I don't like that aspect of play, but people remember how you behave from game to game.

 

You can't delete that impression of someone from your brain. It will influence your opinions regardless.

 

Because I know that, my metagame is extremely consistent and very disciplined. That's why you should weigh my description of my own meta more heavily.

 

As scum, my challenge isn't to beat a specific town. My challenge is to beat Askthepizzaguy-the-townie, and entertain the specific town I'm fighting against.

 

I need to match my town meta as closely as possible, while making enough variations to my game to accomplish a scum agenda and SURVIVE.

 

I have no such need as town, unless it's the late game and every single townie life matters because it's LYLO, and my goal is to die before that time as town so I never throw the game by being Mister Suspicious swindler guy everyone distrusts but is still alive. Because the differences are subtle, even when I explicitly state what they are, no one bothers to follow up on those differences. And I still need to exhibit those differences, in my opinion, to achieve my goals in either alignment, because being lynched D1 does not help my team as scum. It doesn't really help me as town, either, but I need to take that risk in order to have any shot whatsoever at finding and destroying a scumbag on day one, putting pressure on them.

 

I have to find several candidates, because in the past when I've focused on one person, the odds are really stacked against you, and Day One is my most information-poor day, and I'm a behavioral analyst. I can't analyze the differences in behavior if they aren't there yet. I have to, absolutely have to, put pressure out there and get some scumbags feeling uncomfortable. I can't do anything with calm, cool, collected scumbags under no pressure, on day one. There's no behavioral differences to read unless they're unforced blunders.

 

But they will hold true, those differences between my town and scum games, because I have determined through experience that nothing is better for me when I am scum on day one than to simply get past that day and get to the time where I can begin murdering the dangerous people. And those differences have held true for a very long time. Even stating outright these differences, I'm still going to do this as scum until the people I play with change what THEY do. And although I'm a townie in this game, if I were to channel my scum self for one thought out of this entire wall of text, my wager is that they will not change. Not substantially enough. It will be disregarded. If they do change I will be pleasantly surprised and I will have to play more risky as scum on D1, but not before then. Never before then.

 

 

 

 

So let me give you the Zander summary of all that....just lynch Pizza D1 regardless and pretty much gg right?!!

 

 

lololololololol

[Zander?]

 

 

 

 

 

Meh I dont hate your response but I'm not overly impressed by it either. But let me ask this instead, how do you feel about his responses after he provided his quotes?

Worse than before.

 

I asked him to provide his thoughts on my interactions with Nomi.

He said he already had and when I asked him to prove it he showed posts about thoughts of what Nomi had said BEFORE I interacted with him.

It was literally not what I was asking about.

 

This further leads me to believe that he's avoiding giving his thoughts or picking a side as much as he can.

 

No you didnt. I said I had posted thoughts on you/pizza/bob. You asked for quotes. You never specified they had to be about your small chat about what games he used.

 

My original question:

 

I'm more than capable of defending myself. Was that really your motivation here?

Regardless, I had plenty of back and forth with Nomi last night so his position should be clearer to you now.

What are your thoughts?

 

Avoid, deflect, deviate...anything to keep away from the game as it is now.

That's what you look like you're doing to me. Not going to mince words.

You can say I wasn't specific enough if you want to but you're not winning any points with me when you do so.

And I think my question here is quite clear but others may judge for themselves.

 

You pointed out this supposed "pattern" of asking for peoples opinions on you/Pizza/NB.

I said had given my opinions.

You asked for quotes

I gave quotes

Then you come back and say I answered the wrong question

I dispute this

You come back and throw a different question than the one I originally tried to answer in my face.

I laugh at you.

Then I post this.

 

And I dont care about winning points with you. I dont need your points, I need you to talk about whats going on ITT rather than these poor attempts at cases on someone who is not getting lynched today.

 

We'll let the others decide, obviously.

We're just going in circles now.

 

 

 

Alright I'm caught up.

 

I was hoping to hear more from Thane and Taborline today but I guess that's not going to happen.

I'm going to do some rereading and come back with a reads list.

 

[unvote]

 

 

That's a horrible reversal imo.

[Lenlo]

To add: We are not going in circles, you are objectively wrong. That is not a circle, that is straight line. I learned my shapes/lines when I was little, did you?

[Zander?]

To add: We are not going in circles, you are objectively wrong. That is not a circle, that is straight line. I learned my shapes/lines when I was little, did you?

 

LEN!!!!  I LOVE LEN 2.0!!!!!!!

[Nolder]

#686 Attention as of post #686 Nolder has turned tail and run. He has realized he was wrong, but instead of owning up to it he runs away to hide behind the skirts of "others". He waits for them to form his defense for him, rather than making one himself and he continues to not talk about anything else of relevance.

 

This has been a PSA from your neighborhood Lenlo. Stay safe town and remember, always lynch wolves.

HAHAHAHA

 

I'm sure you'd like nothing better than to bog the thread down in argument but I'm not going to bite.

You are wrong and it's obvious you're wrong. You're avoiding giving your thoughts.

Big mistake and it's going to get you lynched eventually. 

I don't have any reason to continue the conversation but maybe you do.

[Nolder]

That's a horrible reversal imo.

Dunno what you mean.

[Zander?]

Alright I'm caught up.

 

I was hoping to hear more from Thane and Taborline today but I guess that's not going to happen.

I'm going to do some rereading and come back with a reads list.

 

[unvote]

 

 

#686 Attention as of post #686 Nolder has turned tail and run. He has realized he was wrong, but instead of owning up to it he runs away to hide behind the skirts of "others". He waits for them to form his defense for him, rather than making one himself and he continues to not talk about anything else of relevance.

 

This has been a PSA from your neighborhood Lenlo. Stay safe town and remember, always lynch wolves.

HAHAHAHA

 

I'm sure you'd like nothing better than to bog the thread down in argument but I'm not going to bite.

You are wrong and it's obvious you're wrong. You're avoiding giving your thoughts.

Big mistake and it's going to get you lynched eventually. 

I don't have any reason to continue the conversation but maybe you do.

 

 

If you think hes wrong why did you unvote him.  I'd like to think you'd leave your vote there if you say he's scum while others decide.

[Zander?]

 

That's a horrible reversal imo.

Dunno what you mean.

 

 

See post 696 should make more clear for you.

[Shad_]

Well I'm caught up to when I joined the game now...

[Nolder]

I want to review the thread before casting my final vote.

I may put it back on Lenlo in the end.

[Shad_]

Pizza, thoughts on the bastard if you haven't given any yet.  If you already did then nevermind, I'll get there soon enough.