IWW: A look at WoT's women

[mb]

The White Tower seems to train its initiates to seek to meet the needs of the world before the needs of the countries they came from.  That to me is a good thing.

 

Elayne may have had a responsibility to Andor, but to me she had a higher responsibility to the Tower and/or to the world.

Besides, she seemed to have made promises.  when Accepted, to stay; when Aes Sedia, to go find the Bowl.

 

Edit::  the other candidate was Dyelin.

[Azrayne]

I was typing up a reply, but I figured there's no point in diverting this into another discussion over how much Elayne sucks. Everyone either knows she sucks or is in denial over how much she sucks, no need to beat that particular dead horse. We're supposed to be talking about the admirable women in WOT, let's stick to that.

 

I wanted to stick to a reasonable number in my first post, but Verin probably comes in #4 for me. Yeah she's Black and has probably done some pretty bad things, but it was all in the name of her greater goal of studying the Black Ajah and bringing it down from the inside, which she managed with no foreplanning. Image being told "join and do horrible things or die," how many people would have the guts to face the situation, keep a straight face, join up and become an undercover agent? Most people would either lash out, break down, or join and end up corrupted by the power and the influence of the other blacks.

 

Combined with her intellectual curiosity and obvious swift intellect (she's the first sister to catch onto Moiraine/Siuan's plotting by a long way*, and she takes that in stride as well), she's not a lady you'd wanna mess with, even without her channeling.

 

*Although in hindsight, do we know if she was at the Darkfriend Social? In that case she'd have recognized Rand/Mat/Perrin at Fal Dara, which would explain her catching on and her lack of surprise.

[Mr Ares]

Even without all those factors, even if she'd decided it was most prudent to stay as neutral as possible as in the Tower split and let it be handled internally in the eyes of the world stage, she still had a responsibility to Andor and it's citizens, a responsibility she'd been raised with and one she'd made a big talk about earlier in the series - but when the time to step up comes, what does she do? She runs off to Ebou Dar. Her presence there was beneficial, sure, but only in hindsight, at the time she was making the active choice to ditch her responsibility as heir to the throne to run off adventuring, right when Andor needed her the most, and the world (and Rand) most needed her to be there.

 

It's not uncharactaristic, Elayne's behavior after TSR right through the series is defined by poor decision making, but it is a really stupid and irresponsible thing to do for someone born to rule that country,

Her decision to go to Ebou Dar saved the world. And she went there after she and Nynaeve used need in T'a'r to find something to help keep the AS away from Elaida and bind them to Rand. Her going to Ebou Dar wasn't just "adventuring", off for fun and ignoring the needs of her people. Andor was left in a stable state. Her presence being beneficial is not something obvious only in hindsight. How it would be of benefit was not obvious up front, but it was not at all a stretch to assume that her presence would be advantageous. Despite Elayne's reputation for poor decision making, many of the claims made either don't hold up, or are simply exaggerated. She's better than she's given credit for being. Her being annoyed at how Rand handled things in Andor is also not unjustified - he did make mistakes in his handling of the situation that made things harder for her. I don't think Elayne is at all out of place in this thread. But then, I also think Faile has more good points than she's given credit for.

 

*I still maintain that Taim was originally Demandred and RJ changed his mind, or possibly that the Prologue, Epilogue, entire Forsaken sub-plot and a good chunk of Taim's characterization in LoC was a giant, giant red herring. It's the only reading of LoC that makes the slightest bit of sense. I know bringing this up gets peoples panties in a bunch (RJ wouldn't lie to us!), but that's my honest to God opinion, and I would stand by it through anything short of a direct contradiction and a reference to what Taim was turned into in a verified and complete copy of RJ's original notes from that era.

Based on the evidence of LoC alone, Taimandred is a pretty weak theory - it only really works if you make certain assumptions and read things in a certain way, but reading them in a different way works against the theory. It only got weaker from there. The evidence suggests RJ wasn't lying, some people are just too attached to that particular reading to be objective about what the text actually says.

[Sabio]

It would of been really hard for Dem to pretend to be Taim at the same time trying to take over Shara.  He just wouldn't of had the time.  

 

About Elayne don't forget there was no way the Aes Sedai in Salidar was going to let her go anywhere near Andor, she even wanted to go and was told no.  So her options were sit around salidar or do something useful and go to Ebou Dar.  I agree she made a few bad decisions and relied on the my children will be born healthy vision too often as an excuse to go run into danger.  But Ebou Dar was not one of her run off without thinking moments.  But I agree most of her complaints about Rand ruling seemed to me to be more about Rand ruling Andor and not her, rather then anything bad Rand really did.  Rand simply pissed people of because he didn't have the time or patience to try and be mister proper ruler, he had no time for all the nobles trying to gain favor nonsense, wanting to gain power and simply wanted to make sure Andor was prepared for the last battle.

 

@Mr Ares, I think people blame Faile for Perrin becoming the I would sacrifice the world to save her type ohhhh I must get Faile back, I am crazed and depressed type for awhile.  I never really hated Faile I just hated what Perrin became after meeting her.

[Azrayne]

Based on the evidence of LoC alone, Taimandred is a pretty weak theory - it only really works if you make certain assumptions and read things in a certain way, but reading them in a different way works against the theory. It only got weaker from there. The evidence suggests RJ wasn't lying, some people are just too attached to that particular reading to be objective about what the text actually says.

 

 

The prologue, epilogue, and Taim's characterization alone make it absurdly obvious that it was either his original intention or a massive red herring, let alone the events of the various Forsaken interactions and the Black Tower sub-plot. No other reading of those sections of LoC makes even the vaguest sense from a literary perspective. Some people are just too attached to the idea that RJ is infallible to be objective about what the text actually says.

 

Seriously, he shoves it down your throat so hard I think I could taste pipe tobacco reading the epilogue. RJ has a lot of positive attributes as a writer, but subtlty isn't one of them.

 

And I'm not attached to the idea in the sense that "man the series would have been cooler if Taim had been Demandred.". I dug the whole Shara thing - although after reading River of Souls I think it would have been cooler if we'd been given a flash here and there of what Demandred is up to over there after RJ realized he'd gone overboard with the Taim thing and switched angles*, having them drop in out of the blue at the Last Battle felt a tad too reminiscent of LOTR for my taste. I just don't like it when authors try to create surprises or plot twists and then change their intention for the story because they dropped too many clues and people picked up on it.

 

And 'M'Hael' is a lame name for one of the Forsaken, which isn't really evidence, but I think if he'd originally planned for Taim to be a darkfriend turned Forsaken, he would have picked a cooler title for Taim with a cooler Old Tongue translation. Betrayer of Hope, Destroyer of Hope, Daughter of the Night, The Envious, Spider... Leader? zzz.

 

*It is still possible it was a red herring, but if that was the case you'd think he would have kept up some ambiguity instead of just dropping the connection and throwing in a brief scene breaking it 3 books later. Changing his mind is the most likely situation.

 

 

Her decision to go to Ebou Dar saved the world. And she went there after she and Nynaeve used need in T'a'r to find something to help keep the AS away from Elaida and bind them to Rand. Her going to Ebou Dar wasn't just "adventuring", off for fun and ignoring the needs of her people. Andor was left in a stable state. Her presence being beneficial is not something obvious only in hindsight. How it would be of benefit was not obvious up front, but it was not at all a stretch to assume that her presence would be advantageous. Despite Elayne's reputation for poor decision making, many of the claims made either don't hold up, or are simply exaggerated. She's better than she's given credit for being. Her being annoyed at how Rand handled things in Andor is also not unjustified - he did make mistakes in his handling of the situation that made things harder for her. I don't think Elayne is at all out of place in this thread. But then, I also think Faile has more good points than she's given credit for.

 

 

Not getting into another massive debate with you, definitely not about something as absurd as Elayne, but I'm genuinely curious, is there a single criticism you have of the books? Is there one area in the series in which you say 'hey, this is kinda dumb/boring/doesn't make sense'? One character who makes you groan whenever they pop up "onscreen"?

 

Because I obviously enjoy WOT enough to spend time arguing about it on the internet 2 years after it ended, but the series is not perfect, not by a huge margin. Obviously I feel the good outweighs the bad by a considerable degree, but there are plenty of problems with it as well, and I just don't understand this attitude of holding it up as if it's gospel and relentlessly piling down on anyone who points out certain major flaws. It's ok to enjoy something but still acknowledge that it has significant problems. Sometimes discussing these problems and what could have been adds to the overall enjoyment.

 

 

It would of been really hard for Dem to pretend to be Taim at the same time trying to take over Shara.  He just wouldn't of had the time.

 

 

Whoosh.

 

Anyway, we're going super off topic here.

[jack of shadows]

@sabio,

"most of her complaints about rand ruling seemed to be more about rand ruling andor 

and not her".

your assessment is spot on,elayne's complaints about the way rand ruled andor were

probably more about her own feelings of resentment and jealousy, it is one thing to know 

that your lover is going to be the leader of all forces of light, and quite another thing to 

actually watch him do it, elayne became the ruler of the most powerful nation in randland

and rand became the ruler of rulers,the fact that people around elayne constantly rubbed

the dragon thing in her face didn't help either.

dyelin nailed it when she said to elayne:" with all due respect,he is the dragon reborn,you are not."

gawyn displayed the same attitude toward rand only a thousand times worse(well,elayne

was in love with rand,gawyn wasn't lol)

"he's a sheep herder.what right does he have to cast down thrones,to change the world as he does?"

[Barid Bel Medar]

Alright, even though the IWW is over, remember the OP. If you want to debate the qualities of a WoT woman in detail, create another thread for it. 

[Azrayne]

I'm trying to think of a fifth and coming up with a blank. Suggestions?

 

Wait, Birgitte: She gets ripped out of the WOD (and at the time suspects it could permanantly severe her from her "hero of the horn" status) while trying to help save someone from one of the Forsaken, ends up in an unfamiliar place and time and slowly loses her memories, yet she mostly takes it in stride. She's laid back and fun instead of uptight and catty, takes her duty as a Warder seriously despite never asking for it, doesn't act like men and women are from alternate dimensions, calls certain individuals out on their terrible behavior towards another certain individual, and risks her life again and again while kicking ass and taking names, despite, like Min, moving around way outside her weight league since she can't channel and doesn't have any other special abilities (well, you could argue about whether her skill with the bow counts, as it's carried over from her past lives, but it makes sense in the context of how she enters the world and she presumably attained it through a lot on training in those past lives on top of natural talent, and either way it doesn't compare to even Perrin's wolf thing or Mat's luck/memories/equipment, let alone channeling).

[sffnews]

Ah robert jordan was a misogynist don't ya know....??

 

http://helenlowe.info/blog/2011/05/13/so-is-epic-fantasy-misogynist-part-3-the-wheel-of-time-a-song-of-ice-and-fire-series-and-conclusion/

[Azrayne]

I'm not sure about misogynist, but he certainly had some rather bizarre attitudes towards gender.

[Ea'V_FOTV_Fan]

Ah robert jordan was a misogynist don't ya know....??

http://helenlowe.info/blog/2011/05/13/so-is-epic-fantasy-misogynist-part-3-the-wheel-of-time-a-song-of-ice-and-fire-series-and-conclusion/

The simple fact that this blogger 'gave up' on the series after 5 or 6 books undermined her entire post. If she had read the rest she would've disproved herself. RJ wrote a rich, diverse universe in which more women were rulers/leaders than men. I believe that this more matriarchal world stemmed from men being blamed for the Breaking. Were there silly moments with women jumping to erroneous conclusions? Yup. Were there at least as many moments where men did the same? Absolutely! RJ poked a lot of fun at the whole Mars / Venus thing but I think he did it very well, with a twinkle in the eye.

[sffnews]

The "blogger" is actually a published and realitively suscessfull fantasy author:)

 

I was a tad disappointed that she shut down comments on that article though after some wise dude pointed out a major flaw in her case;) if you are going to call someone or their work a mysoginist you should at least have the guts to allow people to challenge you on it.

[Ea'V_FOTV_Fan]

The "blogger" is actually a published and realitively suscessfull fantasy author:)

I was a tad disappointed that she shut down comments on that article though after some wise dude pointed out a major flaw in her case;) if you are going to call someone or their work a mysoginist you should at least have the guts to allow people to challenge you on it.

I was aware of that. I used the words that I did to underscore my disdain for her assumptions, especially since she never read the completed work. Every single one of her arguments for her point are dismembered in later books, and her shutting down comments proves that she could no longer support her claims but was unwilling to admit it.

As a man with many strong opinions I've been challenged in the past to admit when I was wrong. Don't like it much, but I respect those who made me see things differently. There are some who simply insist that they're right, and, when proven wrong, choose to ignore it just so they can maintain their sense of moral superiority. I have no respect for these kinds of people.

[Mr Ares]

It would of been really hard for Dem to pretend to be Taim at the same time trying to take over Shara.  He just wouldn't of had the time.  

 

About Elayne don't forget there was no way the Aes Sedai in Salidar was going to let her go anywhere near Andor, she even wanted to go and was told no.  So her options were sit around salidar or do something useful and go to Ebou Dar.  I agree she made a few bad decisions and relied on the my children will be born healthy vision too often as an excuse to go run into danger.  But Ebou Dar was not one of her run off without thinking moments.  But I agree most of her complaints about Rand ruling seemed to me to be more about Rand ruling Andor and not her, rather then anything bad Rand really did.  Rand simply pissed people of because he didn't have the time or patience to try and be mister proper ruler, he had no time for all the nobles trying to gain favor nonsense, wanting to gain power and simply wanted to make sure Andor was prepared for the last battle.

In Elayne's defence, her reputation for recklessness is overstated. The two occasions of her running into danger most commonly cited - in KoD and ToM - both show her making plans rather than running off half-cocked. In KoD she's reassured by the vision, which helps her to remain clam in captivity, but the guarantee of safety didn't induce her to act to begin with. In ToM things going wrong relied on a spectacular coincidence, so it is rather unreasonable to blame Elayne. Whatever other flaws she might have, I don't think recklessness is truly one of them.

 

@Mr Ares, I think people blame Faile for Perrin becoming the I would sacrifice the world to save her type ohhhh I must get Faile back, I am crazed and depressed type for awhile.  I never really hated Faile I just hated what Perrin became after meeting her.

Blaming Faile for Perrin becoming a character people didn't like is rather unfair on Faile - I'd rather just blame Perrin. The biggest flaw in Faile's personality - and thus the biggest reason to legitimately dislike her - is her jealousy. I never felt it was so bad as to overwhelm her many good points, but I can see how it could for other people. After she gets separated that's more on the back burner - she's better able to show off her leadership qualities without the associated baggage, and after the rescue she handles things with Berelain better, but for a lot of people the damage is done - and it doesn't help that she's showing off her good qualities in a widely disliked plot.

 

 

Based on the evidence of LoC alone, Taimandred is a pretty weak theory - it only really works if you make certain assumptions and read things in a certain way, but reading them in a different way works against the theory. It only got weaker from there. The evidence suggests RJ wasn't lying, some people are just too attached to that particular reading to be objective about what the text actually says.

 

The prologue, epilogue, and Taim's characterization alone make it absurdly obvious that it was either his original intention or a massive red herring, let alone the events of the various Forsaken interactions and the Black Tower sub-plot. No other reading of those sections of LoC makes even the vaguest sense from a literary perspective. Some people are just too attached to the idea that RJ is infallible to be objective about what the text actually says.

 

Taim's first appearance has evidence against Taimandred. But this isn't the place to really discuss this.

 

 

Her decision to go to Ebou Dar saved the world. And she went there after she and Nynaeve used need in T'a'r to find something to help keep the AS away from Elaida and bind them to Rand. Her going to Ebou Dar wasn't just "adventuring", off for fun and ignoring the needs of her people. Andor was left in a stable state. Her presence being beneficial is not something obvious only in hindsight. How it would be of benefit was not obvious up front, but it was not at all a stretch to assume that her presence would be advantageous. Despite Elayne's reputation for poor decision making, many of the claims made either don't hold up, or are simply exaggerated. She's better than she's given credit for being. Her being annoyed at how Rand handled things in Andor is also not unjustified - he did make mistakes in his handling of the situation that made things harder for her. I don't think Elayne is at all out of place in this thread. But then, I also think Faile has more good points than she's given credit for.

 

Not getting into another massive debate with you, definitely not about something as absurd as Elayne, but I'm genuinely curious, is there a single criticism you have of the books? Is there one area in the series in which you say 'hey, this is kinda dumb/boring/doesn't make sense'? One character who makes you groan whenever they pop up "onscreen"?

 

Yes. But I'm not going to elaborate further here.

[Sabio]

I simply blame Elayne from the part of like egwene she always felt she needed to do everything herself.  She was a queen,pregnant, and bonded to 2 people who would die if  she did.  Not to mention one of the people she would kill would be the person who was  suppose to save mankind.  She was way too valuable to risk herself like she seemed to do.  She didn't need to go and try to capture the BA in the house she had plenty of folks she could of sent (yes she couldn't forsee being betrayed) but still should the queen be leading the assault?  She mentioned  few times Mins vision which always made me groan.  She was the leader of the forces of light yet was out riding on the frontlines, it took a blast of balefire to convince her to go someplace safer.  I think if RJ was going to have her do all those things he shouldn't of made her take the throne until the end of the series, simply because in my opinion a queen shouldn't be risking  herself like she did.  Like Egwene elayne bugged me imply because they  sort of stayed the same from the start of the  series to the end and never evolved as a character.

[mb]

Send someone else to arrest the Blacks?  The Windfinders might not have agreed; it likely would not have been part of the bargain in their eyes. And most Kin were weak in the One Power; the numbers necessary would probably been too much for surprise. And soldiers would likely have been killed by the Blacks.

[Ea'V_FOTV_Fan]

Elayne's stubborn insistence that she would be safe because Min saw her babes being delivered safely allowed her to behave like an idiot over, what, four books? Poor Brigette was trapped into being a bodyguard for a fool. Yes, she lived up to her upbringing for being a queen, but it leads her to put herself before the Tower, her friends and possibly even the Dragon's Peace.

Even at the very end, at the Dragon's pyre, it takes Brigette to save her from stealing Olver and the Horn of Valere for Andor. No concern at all there for Tower or peace, just advancing her own throne.

[Sabio]

If Elayne explained it was the BA they were after I am sure the windfinders would of helped, we saw how the sea folk behaved when Nyn and Elayne explained why then needed to travel from tear to Tanchico to seek out the BA who may wish to harm the Cooramoor.  They wouldn't even accept coin for the passage.  Can't see the windfinders simply saying "ohhh Aes Sedai that serve the Father of Storms, not our concern".  Elayne had forces she could of used to help her had she tried to use them but she always fell into the had to do it herself mindset.

[mb]

The Sea Folk that transported Elayne & Nynaeve seemed different than the Sea Folk they met in Ebou Dar.  If I recall correctly, the later ones did not ask to guard the Black captured in Ebou Dar.  I imagine that there would have been another bargain; and the events at the house might have been similar to what happened in the book.

 

Also, the house was in Elayne's jurisdiction; and the 2 Blacks were in Aes Sedia jurisdiction.  Neither house nor Blacks seemed connected to the Sea Folk in any way.

[Mr Ares]

I simply blame Elayne from the part of like egwene she always felt she needed to do everything herself.  She was a queen,pregnant, and bonded to 2 people who would die if  she did.  Not to mention one of the people she would kill would be the person who was  suppose to save mankind.  She was way too valuable to risk herself like she seemed to do.  She didn't need to go and try to capture the BA in the house she had plenty of folks she could of sent (yes she couldn't forsee being betrayed) but still should the queen be leading the assault?  She mentioned  few times Mins vision which always made me groan.  She was the leader of the forces of light yet was out riding on the frontlines, it took a blast of balefire to convince her to go someplace safer.  I think if RJ was going to have her do all those things he shouldn't of made her take the throne until the end of the series, simply because in my opinion a queen shouldn't be risking  herself like she did.  Like Egwene elayne bugged me imply because they  sort of stayed the same from the start of the  series to the end and never evolved as a character.

One of the considerations she had with dealing with the BA was the possibility that there were BA or other Darkfriends on her side who hadn't been revealed - so she was aware of the possibility of betrayal and planned accordingly. Could she have sent Windfinders? In the sense that she could ask them, or strike a bargain with them, yes. In the sense that she could be sure there were no Darkfriends amongst them? Not so much. She planned things out, and the choices she made were made for a reason. That's not reckless, which was my point - Elayne might have a bunch of bad points, but the charge of recklessness is often thrown at her but seldom supported. As for leading from the front, the importance of such has been mentioned in the series, and plenty of historical rulers have done so as well. It's risky, but there are legitimate reasons for a leader to do it (inspiring people, showing them you're willing to accept the same risks you ask them to accept).

[Ea'V_FOTV_Fan]

 

I simply blame Elayne from the part of like egwene she always felt she needed to do everything herself.  She was a queen,pregnant, and bonded to 2 people who would die if  she did.  Not to mention one of the people she would kill would be the person who was  suppose to save mankind.  She was way too valuable to risk herself like she seemed to do.  She didn't need to go and try to capture the BA in the house she had plenty of folks she could of sent (yes she couldn't forsee being betrayed) but still should the queen be leading the assault?  She mentioned  few times Mins vision which always made me groan.  She was the leader of the forces of light yet was out riding on the frontlines, it took a blast of balefire to convince her to go someplace safer.  I think if RJ was going to have her do all those things he shouldn't of made her take the throne until the end of the series, simply because in my opinion a queen shouldn't be risking  herself like she did.  Like Egwene elayne bugged me imply because they  sort of stayed the same from the start of the  series to the end and never evolved as a character.

 

One of the considerations she had with dealing with the BA was the possibility that there were BA or other Darkfriends on her side who hadn't been revealed - so she was aware of the possibility of betrayal and planned accordingly. Could she have sent Windfinders? In the sense that she could ask them, or strike a bargain with them, yes. In the sense that she could be sure there were no Darkfriends amongst them? Not so much. She planned things out, and the choices she made were made for a reason. That's not reckless, which was my point - Elayne might have a bunch of bad points, but the charge of recklessness is often thrown at her but seldom supported. As for leading from the front, the importance of such has been mentioned in the series, and plenty of historical rulers have done so as well. It's risky, but there are legitimate reasons for a leader to do it (inspiring people, showing them you're willing to accept the same risks you ask them to accept).

Hundreds of Queens Guard and soldiers were burned out of the Pattern by Balefire as a result of her spontaneous decision to try to capture the Black sisters. More people died when she spontaneously decided to impersonate a Foresaken and question the captured Darkfriends. These were not the decisions of a Queen, but of an impetuous child who thought she was immune from harm because of a viewing from Min. One could question whether her decision to remain in Salidar instead of immediately returning to make her claim to the throne of Andor cost tens of thousands of lives.

Queens make decisions that cost lives, yes. In her case I still say that her spoiled brat nature cost many lives that might've been better spent in the Last Battle.

[Sabio]

Don't forget she was already pretty sure one of the Aes Sedai she was going into the house with was a BA, she just didn't know which one.  I agree there are times one needs to take charge, I simply feel she fell into the I need to do it myself trap too many times.  Now maybe after all she had been through (even though they were captured a few times along the way), its understandable for her to somewhat think she could do this.  But when a nation, unborn children, the dragon reborn, and Brigette are all depending on you, I simply think some caution would be adviseable.  I feel because she was sent to seek out BA, find something that could be harmful to Rand, find the bowl of winds, etc and succeeded (again few incidents along the way, but in the end they succeeded)  that she got caught up in the I have to do it myself and there is nothing I can't do mindset.  After doing all of that I admit it might be hard for her to go from hero to start delegating stuff, but as a queen that is her job.

[Ea'V_FOTV_Fan]

Don't forget she was already pretty sure one of the Aes Sedai she was going into the house with was a BA, she just didn't know which one. I agree there are times one needs to take charge, I simply feel she fell into the I need to do it myself trap too many times. Now maybe after all she had been through (even though they were captured a few times along the way), its understandable for her to somewhat think she could do this. But when a nation, unborn children, the dragon reborn, and Brigette are all depending on you, I simply think some caution would be adviseable. I feel because she was sent to seek out BA, find something that could be harmful to Rand, find the bowl of winds, etc and succeeded (again few incidents along the way, but in the end they succeeded) that she got caught up in the I have to do it myself and there is nothing I can't do mindset. After doing all of that I agree it might be hard for her to go from hero to start delegating stuff, but as a queen that is her job.

Ok. Well... No. Look at everything that happened here:

1:Mat brings her Aludra and Dragons. She immediately argues for them staying in Andor

2: The Kin. As soon as she has access to nearly 1000 channelers she conspires to keep them for herself.

3: the Windfinders. She negotiated her own deal with them absent any Tower input or influence.

4: Travel for a fee. See number two.

5: she wanted Traveling for herself

6: Her opposition to the Seanchan was outside of Tower mandate.

7: she planned to keep Olver and the Horn of Valere for herself and Andor

 

There would be more but I don't have the time to look it all up. The Tower wanted nothing more than having a Sister as a Queen. The bad news was, they got one. One could argue one or more of the points I just made. No one could argue all of them. Elayne was potentially a great Queen. She was for certain a terrible Aes Sedai.

[mb]

Hundreds of Queens Guard and soldiers were burned out of the Pattern by Balefire as a result of her spontaneous decision to try to capture the Black sisters.

at times rulers do need to make spontaneous decisions; this seemed to be one of those times.

People probably would have died regardless of any decision she would have made in this situation.  Possibly more with other options.

[Mr Ares]

 

 

I simply blame Elayne from the part of like egwene she always felt she needed to do everything herself.  She was a queen,pregnant, and bonded to 2 people who would die if  she did.  Not to mention one of the people she would kill would be the person who was  suppose to save mankind.  She was way too valuable to risk herself like she seemed to do.  She didn't need to go and try to capture the BA in the house she had plenty of folks she could of sent (yes she couldn't forsee being betrayed) but still should the queen be leading the assault?  She mentioned  few times Mins vision which always made me groan.  She was the leader of the forces of light yet was out riding on the frontlines, it took a blast of balefire to convince her to go someplace safer.  I think if RJ was going to have her do all those things he shouldn't of made her take the throne until the end of the series, simply because in my opinion a queen shouldn't be risking  herself like she did.  Like Egwene elayne bugged me imply because they  sort of stayed the same from the start of the  series to the end and never evolved as a character.

One of the considerations she had with dealing with the BA was the possibility that there were BA or other Darkfriends on her side who hadn't been revealed - so she was aware of the possibility of betrayal and planned accordingly. Could she have sent Windfinders? In the sense that she could ask them, or strike a bargain with them, yes. In the sense that she could be sure there were no Darkfriends amongst them? Not so much. She planned things out, and the choices she made were made for a reason. That's not reckless, which was my point - Elayne might have a bunch of bad points, but the charge of recklessness is often thrown at her but seldom supported. As for leading from the front, the importance of such has been mentioned in the series, and plenty of historical rulers have done so as well. It's risky, but there are legitimate reasons for a leader to do it (inspiring people, showing them you're willing to accept the same risks you ask them to accept).

Hundreds of Queens Guard and soldiers were burned out of the Pattern by Balefire as a result of her spontaneous decision to try to capture the Black sisters. More people died when she spontaneously decided to impersonate a Foresaken and question the captured Darkfriends. These were not the decisions of a Queen, but of an impetuous child who thought she was immune from harm because of a viewing from Min. One could question whether her decision to remain in Salidar instead of immediately returning to make her claim to the throne of Andor cost tens of thousands of lives.

Queens make decisions that cost lives, yes. In her case I still say that her spoiled brat nature cost many lives that might've been better spent in the Last Battle.

 

See, this is just silly. Yes, a lot of people died, but it's not reasonable to blame Elayne for every death or call her a spoiled brat because of some extremely unlikely outcomes happening to come to pass. If she were to refrain from taking certain courses of action because they might lead to deaths, no matter how unlikely, then she would never be able to take action. Her decision to question the captured Darkfriend Sisters involved her interrogating Shielded prisoners, in her own dungeon, with her guards notified as to her presence, done on short enough notice that the enemy would not be able to formulate and execute a plan to intercept her before she was done. Basically the only way it could go wrong is if a rescue attempt just happened to be made during the brief period she was in there - which is what happened, but is not something so likely to happen that one needs to take specific precautions against it. It's like saying one should never leave the house without a crash helmet just on the off chance that a satellite's orbit will decay, causing it to come crashing down on you. Likewise in JoD, she doesn't blindly rush into danger without any awareness or without any precautions - she has a plan to capture the BA, and to neutralise the threat posed by the Black Sister in her midst, without exposing them to even more potential DF channelers knowing. She's well aware of the potential dangers and has protected against them - that's not reckless, that's saying she's dogged by bad luck. And fundamentally her Viewing didn't cause these situations. What reason is there to think she would have acted otherwise without it? Also, if she had returned to claim her throne rather than remaining in Salidar she wouldn't have gone to Ebou Dar, she wouldn't have found the Bowl, and everyone on the planet would have died. If you want to unreasonably lay all those deaths at her feet, maybe you should be fair enough to lay the lives she saved at her feet as well - and if you think that "saving the world" was a long enough shot that she had no way to see that as a reasonable outcome of her decision to go there... well, I think I've proved my point. If you want to lay all those deaths she caused at her feet but not the lives she saved, you better have a good argument.