[Advanced] Arthurian Mafia

Darthe · March 6, 2015

Nyn I really think that argument would hold more weight for me if you were talking about am experienced player

Yates · March 6, 2015

No. One game does not a meta make. I'm gonna defend Nyn pretty hardcore on this.

You don't have to. It's a semantic argument at this point. My argument is that Nyn is saying that Zashara is displaying behavior that deviates from her behavior in another game where her alignment is now known. To me? That's a meta argument. I don't even know how there's an argument to be had there or what word you would use to define that behavior to differentiate that behavior from meta but that's not really all that important.

Verbal32 · March 6, 2015

Ok, let's talk about that for a second. Who is more likely to be lazy in placing a vote or trying to get somebody lynched early on - town or scum?

The answer is scum. Scum doesn't care who is lynched - any townie will do. Town cares much more, because they don't want to mislynch - and every townie loves to nab scum on D1.

Umm. 1st, are we to assume you have a strong Town read on Nyn? And second, while I'm sure "every Townie loves to nab scum on D1" I'm not sure that I agree that every Townie always acts in the best interests of the Town - especially since we are talking about Darthe. I've been in games with in thread actions that allowed anyone to day vig anyone else, for example, with a 25% chance of success. And let's just say that the results were less than stellar from a Town perspective.

Strong? No. Town lean? Yes. But based on the blue, I'll concede your point, lol.

What background? I practically opened myself up to criticism and unsurprisingly people are talking about it.
You didn't do it on purpose, though. You'll say you did, but we both you it was an accident. Doesn't make you auto-scum, but you're certainly one of the best leads we've got.

You most likely slipped up when trying to bury a bandwagon vote that could push a lynch through on D1. Typical scum behavior, so explain to me how I'm wrong.

Even if you assume im not just trying to generate discussion its equally lilely (if not moreso) that I was lazy than scummy.

Ok, let's talk about that for a second. Who is more likely to be lazy in placing a vote or trying to get somebody lynched early on - town or scum?

The answer is scum. Scum doesn't care who is lynched - any townie will do. Town cares much more, because they don't want to mislynch - and every townie loves to nab scum on D1.

So your explanation does not help your point - it helps mine.

Fallacious argument. Without a good grasp of the thread I have little reason to suspect one individual over another meaning that my decision isnt based on who I might eventually decide I wamt to see dead.

While the words you just typed make sense, I can't reconcile it to your prior actions. You bandwagoned Nyn and defending it with a breadcrumb you placed on Lily. Instead of admitting you were mistaken, you instead tried to defend it.

That defense is why you should be lynched.

Nynaeve · March 6, 2015

Do you see how bold number 2 disproves bold number 1? You claim you aren't talking about meta but then argue that your point is that she did something in her first game but not in this one - which is the definition of meta.

As for finding it odd? I don't know. I'd have to take your word for it because I wasn't in that game [or at least don't remember it] and I'm not going to go back and read a game based on such an insubstantial point in the first place.

My broader point is that I'm wondering what caused this to ping so strongly for you. Can you explain that for me?

DM just ate my lengthy response....

But anyways, no, I don't see how they disprove each other. Meta, to me at least, is playstyle. I'm not talking about her playstyle. I've seen her play once as town. I haven't seen her play as scum at all. So naturally I wouldn't have any insight about her meta.

What I'm referring to is something she said. Which is that she's kinda caught up in the whole day 1 madness so she doesn't have much to say. Which serves as an awesome pretense to sit back and not bring anything to the table for a while. It's a cop out. Can she be genuinely taken aback by the pace? It's possible. As Barm pointed out it goes a bit differently in her home mafia site. So I decided to look back on her first game here a little while ago. Now whether you want to read it or not, she was not confused there. She was determined and even pointed out herself how it would be interesting to scumhunt without any meta. She didn't seem out of whack. She didn't seem unsettled. She did just fine.

To sum up, if I saw that she was trying to find her footing on her first game and was doing so here as well I'd chuck it up to her acclimating to the culture here on DM. Since I've seen nothing of the sort in her actual first game and I see her using the 'new to the site' card here in her OP no less...... then I think something is fishy. Her responses were not good imo. She's been mostly sitting back and letting others carry this argument for her. I haven't seen a single thing out of her that made me feel even slightly better.

Verbal32 · March 6, 2015

No. One game does not a meta make. I'm gonna defend Nyn pretty hardcore on this.
You don't have to. It's a semantic argument at this point. My argument is that Nyn is saying that Zashara is displaying behavior that deviates from her behavior in another game where her alignment is now known. To me? That's a meta argument. I don't even know how there's an argument to be had there or what word you would use to define that behavior to differentiate that behavior from meta but that's not really all that important.

Fair enough.

Nynaeve · March 6, 2015

Nyn I really think that argument would hold more weight for me if you were talking about am experienced player

And what makes you think she's not an experienced player?

Verbal32 · March 6, 2015

No. One game does not a meta make. I'm gonna defend Nyn pretty hardcore on this.
You don't have to. It's a semantic argument at this point. My argument is that Nyn is saying that Zashara is displaying behavior that deviates from her behavior in another game where her alignment is now known. To me? That's a meta argument. I don't even know how there's an argument to be had there or what word you would use to define that behavior to differentiate that behavior from meta but that's not really all that important.

Fair enough.

Actually, I'll add that it is playstyle vs. facts. Nyn is not arguing the former - she's arguing the latter.

Leelou · March 6, 2015

If I didn't say it earlier, I have a town lean on Nyn. Starting to get one on Verbal.

Nynaeve · March 6, 2015

Let me further clarify this. The 'new DM player' card doesn't last long around these parts. At least as far as I'm concerned. And I wouldn't even say that it applies in Zash's case because she's just new to the site, not new to mafia. She has played before. But claiming newbiness does not fall within the meta territory as far as I'm conerned. I don't know how she plays as scum or how she plays as town. I do know that she did perfectly well on her first game and on the second she's trying to use being new to lay low. That doesn't slide with me and it's coming off as if she's lying.

Verbal32 · March 6, 2015

Let me further clarify this. The 'new DM player' card doesn't last long around these parts. At least as far as I'm concerned. And I wouldn't even say that it applies in Zash's case because she's just new to the site, not new to mafia. She has played before. But claiming newbiness does not fall within the meta territory as far as I'm conerned. I don't know how she plays as scum or how she plays as town. I do know that she did perfectly well on her first game and on the second she's trying to use being new to lay low. That doesn't slide with me and it's coming off as if she's lying.

She's been a member on DM since 2008.

Nynaeve · March 6, 2015

And to dumb it down...... chronology wise... if you have a problem with adjusting to the mafia DM culture, you have it on your first couple of games. You don't forget to on your first game and then magically remember to be confused on the second one. lol

Nynaeve · March 6, 2015

Let me further clarify this. The 'new DM player' card doesn't last long around these parts. At least as far as I'm concerned. And I wouldn't even say that it applies in Zash's case because she's just new to the site, not new to mafia. She has played before. But claiming newbiness does not fall within the meta territory as far as I'm conerned. I don't know how she plays as scum or how she plays as town. I do know that she did perfectly well on her first game and on the second she's trying to use being new to lay low. That doesn't slide with me and it's coming off as if she's lying.

She's been a member on DM since 2008.

I know I meant DM mafia. I know she's been a WT member for a while.

Verbal32 · March 6, 2015

kk

Yates · March 6, 2015

What I'm referring to is something she said. Which is that she's kinda caught up in the whole day 1 madness so she doesn't have much to say. Which serves as an awesome pretense to sit back and not bring anything to the table for a while. It's a cop out.

I can't argue this point. I more or less agree with it, though I'm not sure how great of a tell it is. My concern was you bringing up the other game - her first game - where you claim she didn't do that. To me; that's where it became a meta argument and a potential frame up.

I think you took a weak argument ["I think you are faking your confusion"] and tried to back it up with something more substantive ["because you didn't do it in our first game together"]. I get trying to strengthen an argument but what made you hone in on THAT particular argument in the first place? For example, Lily and Dice have both claimed to be having trouble following your argument [which is a similar sin to Zasha's] but I haven't seen you touch on that. See what I'm saying?

I don't know. I guess I'm not bothered by a new player feeling a little like a fish out of water in the early part of this game. So it struck me as odd that you made that the major tenet of your investigation into Zasha. I could almost describe that as bullying a noob. Maybe that's what's actually bothering me.

Yates · March 6, 2015

Let me further clarify this. The 'new DM player' card doesn't last long around these parts. At least as far as I'm concerned. And I wouldn't even say that it applies in Zash's case because she's just new to the site, not new to mafia. She has played before. But claiming newbiness does not fall within the meta territory as far as I'm conerned. I don't know how she plays as scum or how she plays as town. I do know that she did perfectly well on her first game and on the second she's trying to use being new to lay low. That doesn't slide with me and it's coming off as if she's lying.

Okay. This mostly answers my concern above.

Leelou · March 6, 2015

Yates, she's not a noob player from what I understand, but this is her second game on DM.

Yates · March 6, 2015

Yates, she's not a noob player from what I understand, but this is her second game on DM.

Yeah. I just got caught up and read that. I wasn't aware.

Nynaeve · March 6, 2015

What I'm referring to is something she said. Which is that she's kinda caught up in the whole day 1 madness so she doesn't have much to say. Which serves as an awesome pretense to sit back and not bring anything to the table for a while. It's a cop out.
I can't argue this point. I more or less agree with it, though I'm not sure how great of a tell it is. My concern was you bringing up the other game - her first game - where you claim she didn't do that. To me; that's where it became a meta argument and a potential frame up.

I think you took a weak argument ["I think you are faking your confusion"] and tried to back it up with something more substantive ["because you didn't do it in our first game together"]. I get trying to strengthen an argument but what made you hone in on THAT particular argument in the first place? For example, Lily and Dice have both claimed to be having trouble following your argument [which is a similar sin to Zasha's] but I haven't seen you touch on that. See what I'm saying?

I don't know. I guess I'm not bothered by a new player feeling a little like a fish out of water in the early part of this game. So it struck me as odd that you made that the major tenet of your investigation into Zasha. I could almost describe that as bullying a noob. Maybe that's what's actually bothering me.

I'm not bullying a noob. First of all, Zasha is not a noob. Secondly I don't feel like I was bullying her at any point. I nudged her and her responses left a lot to desire. Thirdly, If she exhibited the same behavior on the first game she played here, I'd be inclined to let it slide as unfamiliarity. Because She didn't do that AT ALL in her first game, I feel more secure in my initial instinct which is that her OP was fishy.

dice and Lily both claimed they had trouble following CLOV's argument, not mine. And I did ask them both to give out more thoughts.

And why wouldn't I want to try and substantiate my suspicion? If I feel that there's information out there that can help me read people, you better believe I'm gonna use it. I don't care how it might or might not make me look. If it's up there for grabs, I'm gonna examine it and see where it takes me.

Verbal32 · March 6, 2015

What I'm referring to is something she said. Which is that she's kinda caught up in the whole day 1 madness so she doesn't have much to say. Which serves as an awesome pretense to sit back and not bring anything to the table for a while. It's a cop out.
I can't argue this point. I more or less agree with it, though I'm not sure how great of a tell it is. My concern was you bringing up the other game - her first game - where you claim she didn't do that. To me; that's where it became a meta argument and a potential frame up.

I think you took a weak argument ["I think you are faking your confusion"] and tried to back it up with something more substantive ["because you didn't do it in our first game together"]. I get trying to strengthen an argument but what made you hone in on THAT particular argument in the first place? For example, Lily and Dice have both claimed to be having trouble following your argument [which is a similar sin to Zasha's] but I haven't seen you touch on that. See what I'm saying?

I don't know. I guess I'm not bothered by a new player feeling a little like a fish out of water in the early part of this game. So it struck me as odd that you made that the major tenet of your investigation into Zasha. I could almost describe that as bullying a noob. Maybe that's what's actually bothering me.

I'm not bullying a noob. First of all, Zasha is not a noob. Secondly I don't feel like I was bullying her at any point. I nudged her and her responses left a lot to desire. Thirdly, If she exhibited the same behavior on the first game she played here, I'd be inclined to let it slide as unfamiliarity. Because She didn't do that AT ALL in her first game, I feel more secure in my initial instinct which is that her OP was fishy.

dice and Lily both claimed they had trouble following CLOV's argument, not mine. And I did ask them both to give out more thoughts.

And why wouldn't I want to try and substantiate my suspicion? If I feel that there's information out there that can help me read people, you better believe I'm gonna use it. I don't care how it might or might not make me look. If it's up there for grabs, I'm gonna examine it and see where it takes me.

I was about to point this out when I saw you beat me to it. Now it is Yates' turn to not be paying enough attention to use something in an argument that doesn't fit.

First Darthe, now Yates.

Nynaeve · March 6, 2015

As far as having a weak argument, I was going with my initial instinct and rolled with it. D1 FoSes are what they are. D1 FoSes. But I have since looked over her first game. I have since saw her responses, as well as responses of the other players. And if anything I feel like the initial bad feelz turned into really bad feelz. Point me out to one single thing that makes her look even remotely townie in how she addressed this whole thing? I know Sili pointed out that she seemed aggrevated and gave her townie credit for it. I disagree. She could be aggravated as a townie. But she could easily be aggravated as a busted scummy too.

Nynaeve · March 6, 2015

To be honest I'm not sure what to make of the players taking it upon themselves to defend Zasha in her steed. I also don't like the players that are choosing not to chime in on it at all.

Sili Quirrels · March 6, 2015

Didn't care for Darthe's posts either. He's skimming. I feel like he jumped on my wagon without paying much of attention and then when he called out on it he tried to weasel out of it. Pointing out Lily related quotes is completely unrelated and his entire response made zero sense to me. But not in the usual Darthe way. It reeks.

I'm fine with lynching either Zasha or Darthe today. Nether of them is sitting right with me.

What does Darthe usually look like?

I gave Darthe points because his tone and attitude seemed familiar. I subbed in for him in the NF game we played, and his posts were callous and trollish there too.

Leelou · March 6, 2015

Darthe hardly ever makes sense, but uses worse logic as scum.

Zashara · March 6, 2015

Allright, so I do find these first phases to be different than what I'm used to. Mostly with that first post I wanted to let people know I was paying attention to the thread but didn't have anything to say at the moment. In the previous game, I was able to talk to Barm about the first phase thing since he wasn't playing but in this game I can't. He can confirm that, if he wants to that is.

My intention wasn't to use it as an excuse to lay low and not say anything at all for the phase. I just wouldn't have posted until someone mentioned me in that case. At the very least it did generate some discussion which I was more comfortable taking part in and should be valuable later in the game.

Besides, I think Nyn

Verbal32 · March 6, 2015

Didn't care for Darthe's posts either. He's skimming. I feel like he jumped on my wagon without paying much of attention and then when he called out on it he tried to weasel out of it. Pointing out Lily related quotes is completely unrelated and his entire response made zero sense to me. But not in the usual Darthe way. It reeks.

I'm fine with lynching either Zasha or Darthe today. Nether of them is sitting right with me.

What does Darthe usually look like?

I gave Darthe points because his tone and attitude seemed familiar. I subbed in for him in the NF game we played, and his posts were callous and trollish there too.

He does that regardless of alignment. Tone tells are not good with people who translate them well from town to scum.

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