[Basic]: Be Nice Mafia

[Cass]

 

 

 

 

 

 

making suggestions that he later claimed not to believe himself, and refusing to explain why he thought people were scum - even to the point of stating that they weren't actually his scum reads.

 

like what suggestions?

 

and what people did i claim were scum? -because i rebuked the label when you applied it, and never went back. You were the one who pressed for names, by the way, and I gave 'suspects' if you will. I wasn't going to accept your arbitrary label that implies that i somehow had a case to offer.

 

 

If you insist on me casing you I will, but that's not the purpose of that post.  Patience, young padawan.  Or whatever.

 

stop soft nudging. you've spent 4 or 5 pages now building it up after all, so just get on with it. if you mention everything i think you should i'll put you down as tentatively town.

 

glgl.

 

 

Patience.

 

The point is coming.

 

i hope. you're being very disingenuous.

 

 

I know. It's horrible, isn't it?

 

 

 

Wolfy   

 

[Cass]

@ Clov

 

(Quotes all-spoilered in case it helps deal with dodgy formatting)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@ Clov - Just that it was odd that he would 'call' me Town 'like everyone else' but do it in a way that casts doubt/insinuates that I might be different from the others he listed...

Kinda feels like the same as my first game where the Scum mostly said 'I have her as Town,' and then carefully insinuated it was possible I could be Scum because it was plausible that I could be being helped. The doubt that move cast over the rest of Town haunted/followed me for the whole freaking game.

I feel like it was a search for something similar to push against me in this game: 'I have her as Town, BUT she could be pulling the wool over your eyes/could be Scum now because even though she's fairly new, she's had experience being Scum before...'

Since I know I'm Town again (and probably also because I'm once bitten, twice shy) it pings/makes me wary.

Does that make any sense? (I'm typing this on phone whilst trying not to ignore the toddler - let me know if doesn't)

Also, you read the last game, right? Do you think something different??

@ Sili - Do you have links to a recent Town game at all?

Going out to lunch/running errands now, back tonight when the kid's in bed - GL!

 

I was more concerned with him using a conditional he already knew the answer to.  That is, he's somewhat familiar with the games you've played, so he new the answer to  "Have you played a bunch of scum games?" would be no.  That would allow him to lock you in as town, based on what he said earlier.

 

Basically a cheap way to justify a TMI "read".

 

 

I dont think i would read me as a wolf if i knew me so i dont see what u see tress.

Current reads are

Yates town
Clov town
Cass town
Tress town
Bfg town

Jmm scum.

Expect me to itterate heavily in the background. Sometimes ppl find it fishy that i nudge and swap targets but i like to give reads breathing room. It also creates content. If something is important ill usually elaborate to persuade people

 

What makes you think BFG is town?  Jmm scum?  Neither of those seem like they should be above null to me.

 

 

Thane is also town in the derp clear sort of way.

 

He says the wolf instead of a wolf. Its a tentative meta read premised on him being selective about his word choice if he ever rands mafia for me.

 

....what?

 

 

Clov, I agree with the TMI thing here. Potentially scummy Sili-you interactions aside, this post comes across as fairly towny. Only gripe I have is that you didn't actually answer whether or not my own train of thought also made sense to you and if you actually read the game I was talking about/the interactions that made me 'paranoid'.
 

 

Not sure if you expected me to, but on re-read I realised I never really got back to you about this. 

 

 

 

Quote chopping ITT.

 

Sili

In a nutshell, at this point, I'm totally reading you as scum (again), but I'm interested in some elaboration from you before I vote.

- What are your thoughts/reactions to the above?
- Why should we be reading you as Town?
- What's the difference in your mind between a Town 'read' and a Town 'lean'?
- What was your reason for suggesting Clov was a likely Wolf? Do you have a reason for not elaborating at the time?
- You said chopping and changing is normal for you, and that you like to 'give your reads breathing room', but you 'pushed' Clov at least twice before suddenly dropping him and saying he actually seemed fine. Why?
- Why is jmm's question about the number of wolves scummy?
- How can you say you have Clov as Town because your interactions were 'likely v/v violence', but then claim you're 'spewed' clear if he is Scum? I can't follow that logic/don't see anything that points to either of these btw.

 

 

The whole post seems like a genuine attempt at trying to get a read on Sili, so I think that looks really good for Cass.  The questions in red especially sound like she's trying to understand how he's playing.  Only way she's mafia here is if she's going for a very long set up on him being inconsistent (or completely wasting time, I guess).  I don't think that's the case.  I'm pretty comfortable calling Cass town for where we're at.

 

 

My plan is to pocket you.  See how you respond.  Serious question; when is the last time I read you wrong?  I want to see that comfortable, free thinking, shoot from the hip Thane Town so I'm setting you up for it.  And if a "Be Nice" game isn't the proper format to get you to that place, I don't know what is.

 

Yates, can you elaborate on what you mean by pocket him here?  The end of the post seems to be a reasonably pro-town thing to do, but I'm getting hung up on the first sentence.  You don't normally see that expression used as a positive thing, or as a way of helping somebody establish themselves, as you seem to be doing with Thane.

 

 

I'll need to account for his lack of games but my thinking was his posts were too 'excited', and didn't say much. He only asks one question, how many mafia there are in an 8 person team with his second post. -felt like he might have done it just for town cred the way it was phrased.

 

 

Jmm, to that point.

 

 

 

 

 

Greetings and salutations, fellow ponies. 

-----------------

This is the extent of my MLP knowledge: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zHZj8Xp-Ik

 

 

Experienced mafia-ers: 

With 8 are we looking at 2 or 1 mafia probably? 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't see how you can possibly say he's been particularly excited.  More importantly, why is that alignment indicative?  I think most people associate having fun and being easy going as towntelling, because it reduces the concern they're hiding something.  I don't know there's much truth to it, but it seems to make more sense than somebody being scummy for it.

 

The second point is reasonable enough, I suppose.

 

Massive quote chopping in the one below.

 

 

 

 

- Picks up the 'pressure' on Sili. Uses Sili's 'read' of me as the base:

Valid but ... *shoves on tinfoil hat*... parts 'fit' my current theory that Sili and Clov are W-W, and my concern that I'm being set up by Scum again.

 

- Says he's confused as to how Sili can take a hard stance on my alignment based on my first post.

Agree with this, but then

 

- Asks why I'm 'incapable' of making that post as scum?

My opening being null is a valid point in theory, but in practice I don't like that he uses the word 'incapable' here, in a tone that suggests he's saying I'm actually 'capable' of making that post as scum. Same potential as before. Scum casting doubt on my alignment based on 'questions' of my ability. Sili 'brushes this off' by saying 'she's not incapable?'. Tinfoily as all bollocks? Maybe. Either way, I don't like it. 

 

 

- Pushes harder at Sili for saying 'All my reads are tentative of course' so early on, and questions the caveat Sili put on his read of me compared to others.

This actually came across as Town to me (and was the part I was referring to when I mentioned the partial mind-meld with Clov).

 

- Talks about the 'relevance' of their 'different' opinions and the fact that he's considering Sili might be scum.

Ok, but slightly off. Feels kind of fake. He say's he'd rather 'try to judge' Sili on his reads than on 'meaningless posts' from the first page, but did judge him there. And then agrees that 'miscommunication' doesn't make someone scum and (?over) explains the possibility that Sili's PM may have made him scum and that it's his job to figure that out. Appeals for Town cred by essentially explaining stuff that is rather obvious, and then associating himself with 'everyone's' likely reasoning (bold in spoiler).

 

 

 

 

 

Questions me directly

- Says he's not sure how me being set up as scum by scum would work.

- Asks me what I'm thinking/to explain.

Maybe I wasn't overly clear in my initial statements to Sili, but I found Clov asking for explanations on this odd because i)at the end of the last game, I thought it was pretty obvious that this had been one of scum's main ploys when it came to me, and ii) I distinctly remember Clov commenting on the DT/after the game. I kind of made these points in my response (bold in the spoiler). He hasn't posted since asking me the initial question, so I'm still waiting to see what comes up in his response to my explanation.

 

Other

Pretty much null

 

- Jokes in response to Yate's first post

Seemed purposefully flippant, but not necessarily scummy.

 

- Answers jmm's question about the number of scum likely to be in this game

Says two. Initially I took this as Town/null, and nobody else experienced has contradicted the answer so it's probably correct, but, just to dot i's and cross t's can the mod/other experienced players please confirm this is right, please?

 

 

@ Clov

 

It's not much to go on yet, but already I'm reading your posts with a scummish lean, especially in relation to Sili/points raised by Sili. At this point you seem to be the second most likely wolf to me. I know I haven't played a proper game with you and could just be tinfoiling/reading you all wrong so I'm interested to know your thoughts/figure this out further.

 

- What are your responses/reactions to the above?

- What is your current read on Sili, and why? 

 

 

 

Red - Well, yeah, that would be the implication there.  I think your opening post was pretty null, so the way Sili presented his thoughts on it seemed strange - I didn't feel there was anything that was alignment indicative so him implying you would have had to get massive Mafia (alignment, not the game) experience to make it as Mafia was off.  Bold red behind it though is a bad conclusion, though.  I'm not "casting doubt" on your alignment, and my stance had nothing to do with your ability.  I was casting doubt on what appeared to be a strong read off nothing.

 

As for the rest of it, honestly, most of it seems to be paranoia/tinfoiling.  You and I seem to have been seeing the thread the same way early on.  From your POV, I can understand (and appreciate) some concern that maybe I'm trying to side with you or something, but I think it's a little early to worry about that.

 

Section highlighted in blue is something that stood out to me as more than just tinfoiling.  If you feel it felt fake, I can't really do/say anything to refute that.  You're wrong about me judging him based off the first page fluff, though.  My read from him in post #29 is based on him

 

1) moving on from a presumable joke vote of BFG

2) his "vibes"

 

Effort isn't much to go on, but for the first few hours of the phase, I can appreciate somebody trying to get down to business.  Like I said, it wasn't very strong, but it was a better option that making a guess based on initial posts and mod-directed spam.

 

Now I'm feeling worse about him.  His justification for reading you as town as early as he did seems based off nothing, and his explanation on reading jmm just doesn't make sense to me.  It doesn't seem like he's reading the same thread I am.

 

 

The things that bother me here/read to me as having the potential to be off are in bold red.
 

The first part is highlighted because it honestly still reads to me like it could have been intended either way, and if you did mean to cast that subtle doubt... *insert previous argument about not liking being set up this way previously by scum here*

 

The second part stung only because of the barb in the tail. Given that it was early after my interaction in the last game that this concerning tactic started, I don't think any time would be 'too early' to 'worry' about that. I highlighted it the instant it felt similar to me to avoid the possibility of having to contradict/deal with it the entire game again - and it may be because it was nothing or something this time, but it hasn't happened since so I don't regret voicing my concerns.

 

The third part bothered me more before your answer at EoD about not being overly certain about the read than it does now

(but if Sili flips scum it will probably bother me somewhat again lol)

 

 

 

From the top - 

 

It made sense, but it didn't seem likely.  Setting you up with a town read and then reversing it right after would have looked worse on him than you IMO.  And no, I wasn't really expecting you to follow up with it, but I appreciate you doing so.

 

 

From the bottom - 

 

First part - if that's how it reads to you, that's how it reads to you.  I wrote what I wrote and explained why I wrote it that way.  If you see it differently, there's nothing I can really do about it at this point, besides point out that I obviously haven't tried to use it against you...so if I was going to, it didn't pan out that way?

 

Second - I'm not sure what tactic you're referring to.  I would guess trying to set you up, but that doesn't really mesh with what I was conveying in that section - which was that I felt it was too early to start being concerned with likely town reads actually being mafia.  Of course I'm all for keeping reads fluid with the game thread, but I think you have to trust your reads to be reliable, until that person gives you something to change them for.  As it applied here, you and I seemed to agree on a lot early and your posts seemed to suggest that I was a slight townlean.  To immediately turn to the aspect of being wrong just seemed a bit much.

 

Third - I'm not sure what you're saying here, or why him flipping scum would bother you.  Can you elaborate on what bothered you about it?

 

 

 

 

The first part - yup 

 

Second - I'm still not sure if you're denying that it's a tactic or saying you weren't trying to use it, or both... And yes, this relates to being set up. If that's not what you were doing then it's not what you were doing, but it's still a logical potential in my mind.

I will probably always be concerned that my otherwise townish reads are actually based on mafia being scummy.  I can't help but feel more comfortable trusting my 'that could be scummy' intuition more and I think I operate the opposite, people coming across ok remain potentially clever scum, people coming across scummy probably just are scum, and I go after the person I'm finding/feeling the scummiest at the time. Guilty until 'proven' innocent, in a sense. Still possible that I'm going to be wrong and tinfoil on the wrong player (   Sili), but a little less likely that I'm going to get duped somewhere along the line by clever scum and possibly let them go, I would hope at least. I don't know where the impression of a 'slight townlean' came from (until at least after the posts at EOD1, where I might have started to read you with a slight change also). Yes, I found myself agreeing logically/theoretically with your push at Sili and some of the points you made, but I distinctly remember being bothered by the feeling/tone that I may be being set up. I had you as my second strongest scum lean - with Sili as your likely partner, and I said I was reading your posts with a scummish lean. You were in my 'logically-clean-associatively-and-tonally-disturbing' pile. For me that most likely equates to a wolf being wolfy and just being clever enough to avoid doing anything overtly wrong. Can you explain where you thought I had you down as Town, at that point?

 

Third - If Sili had flipped scum, it would have bothered me a little more that I had this concern/feeling/paranoia about you early in the game (that maybe the two of you were setting me up), and then that later, you said you felt worse about him (looks good to Town) but didn't vote for him (put off a lynch). Basically, it would have added to the other things about your play that were keeping me on guard, and that would've been another, stronger potential indication that you were scum.

 

That's pretty much it, in a nutshell, although now I'm more concerned again because of the potential w-w in you and Yates.

[Cass]

at hopeless formatting - how does that even happen??

Anyone notice the timestamps on my double post (sorry about that)? What is DM smoking??

[Cass]

PS Clov, can you still read all of the bottom of #1027?

[Thane Vakarian]

 

[v]Sili[/v]

 

I think i got fooled D1. Been re-reading some after N1, and yeah, you don't make sense to me. 

 

 

ignore Thane, really?

 

Yates: i thought Sili a possible wolf candidate early D1. His tone and general posting improved, that's why he went down my list of suspects. Right now, he's absolutely everywhere. He's not making sense at all to me. Usually, i can get where he comes from, but here.... nope. I think he's a good one for today

Thane, if you're here, what specifically bothered you/wasn't making sense? What made you think that you'd been 'fooled' D1, enough that you would vote?

 

I'll try to explain it as simple as possible. I look at people's posting styles a lot. Usualli, i can make sense of Sili, even if he votes left and right. There's logic behind what and how he does things. This time, D2, he seemed random, panicking and jumpy for no obvious reason. He got his things together later during that gamehase, that's why i unvoted him

[Cass]

I also think that people had addressed stuff to me?

 

Cass - the vig/cop/doc thing is to try and figure out how people are feeling about others. I'm not asking if they're a vig/cop or doc :) I also can't do anything about when I'm around to post - I can post when I'm not at work, so I will try to post every evening, and most mornings /shrug I can't do all nighters on a mafia game as I need to be awake the next day for work, and I can't access the internet at all when I'm at work. Also, there's no reason for you to think my 'meta' on Sili is going to be better, I have a couple of his town games, one mafia game and a game where he started as town and ended as mafia to work with.

 

If there was anything else I missed it, sorry :/

 

This all makes logical sense to me, thanks for the explanations.

[Cass]

Cass are these from a reread or through ISO?

 

 

 

Ok *gets serious* Have sat down and re-read to here (Thane's post #80).

 

In a nutshell, my gut reads this far are that Sili, followed by possibly Clov and Yates, are coming across somewhat wilfish.

 

Everyone else has posted and seems null so far, although I'm interested to see more from jmm and BFG - all I know of jmm is the beginning of the last DM game (Tress'), which isn't much, and I can't recall seeing BFG in any of the games I've read to date.

 

Explanations for gut reads are coming next, but I'm working on mobile so thought it was best to get the basics up before I get bogged down.

 

Wish me luck.

 

 

i'm always cautious and selective on what and how i write things in a mafia game. On that note... from everything i've been reading here, you do feel/look wolfiest for the moment Sili.

 

 

second place is for Clov...

 

Got the feeling you're both too defensive THIS early in the game

 

 

 

 

good luck!

 

Are you feeling confident about winning this one?

Thank-you! *hugs the law-breaker*

 

Confident about winning? Um, I feel fairly 'happy' with my gut reads (for the moment, *g*) ... but I can't honestly say that I'm 'confident' about them *rolls eyes at self*... Does that make sense?

 

What reads/leans do you have so far?

 

Basically the same as yours actually. For the moment, Sili and Clov feel worst. Don't get any other bad vibes here. Cautious about jmm, seeing i don't know his game. Will be interesting to see how things develop this game.

 

 

 

Oh, Yates, i know you appreciate games we're both in, and you're quite capable in reading me, but don't try to buddy too hard, might be suspicious

You need to check out the beer thread.  I had a super rare Belgian beer the other night and thought of you...  

 

My plan is to pocket you.  See how you respond.  Serious question; when is the last time I read you wrong?  I want to see that comfortable, free thinking, shoot from the hip Thane Town so I'm setting you up for it.  And if a "Be Nice" game isn't the proper format to get you to that place, I don't know what is.

 

You're indeed quite often right about reading me. And, you don't need to set me up as Thane Town, i'm already Town in this game. And i like to hunt wolves (seriously, i need fur)

 

 

Initially I took this as Town/null, and nobody else experienced has contradicted the answer so it's probably correct, but, just to dot i's and cross t's can the mod/other experienced players please confirm this is right, please?

Depending on powers and balance and stuff like that, scum are usually 25% of the game. So yes, we are likely dealing with two scum.

 

yup, i think so too. 25% scum = 2 wolves. Which we can get to fast if we eliminate the most obvious townies first. Good thing is that most players only need to look into 7 people. Besides me, i think Tress and Cass are most likely town, so i'm down to checking 4 players (with the other two in the back of my mind, depending on how the game develops)

 

 

 

Thane, this might be nothing more than a Towny coincidence, and it's really the only thing I've seen of you so far that might actually be suspicious (especially in the re-reads where I'm trying to consider things from the perspective that Sili is Town), but, the red. The way when I ask what reads/leans you have you give me nothing back other than things I've already said myself. There's nothing new, nothing different.

 

Did you really have no other reads/leans/ideas at this point, or was there another reason you weren't sharing? 

 

FWIW, I think there may be a couple of plausible reasons why this next point doesn't necessarily mean you're scummy, but this paranoia brings me back to the fact that I can't help but feel you're playing differently this game. Can you explain why you're coming across more guarded this time around (other than the possibility that you're Scum)??

 

 

 

Not sure why this seems to be quoted out of sequence, bit look at the time stamps

 

Thane's reads were on thread prior to yours (you mentioned being suspicious of Sili but not Clov)

 

Couldn't tell you for sure where this came from (sorry). If it helps, I open new tabs from both thread and ISO reads and copy quotes, wherever stuff stands out? 

 

i) I can't see where it's quoted out of sequence? This is what I see:

 

Quoted text

Thane 8 Jan 09:08am: Are you feeling confident?

Cass 9 Jan 01:4am: No. What reads do you have?

Thane 9 Jan 03:55am: Basically the same as yours actually...

 

Follow-up/re-read 

Cass 12 Jan, 5:08pm - Thane, this might be nothing but I find it weird that you say the same thing as me and give me nothing new, and now I'm freaking out that there's a wolfy reason that you're playing differently to last time you were town...

 

(Did you miss the change from 8 - 9 Jan?)

 

 

ii) My problem wasn't the timing of those reads in the thread, it was that when I asked him for his current reads/leans (meaning all of them, although on a re-read that maybe wasn't clear) he gave me nothing new/extra/nothing on anybody else - blue bold above.

 

Does that help?

[Cass]

 

 

Good morning :)

 

I got caught up rereading yesterday. Unfortunately I don't have time to write my thoughts before work. I more or less finished Day 1, there are a couple of pages I skimmed through which I want to check.

 

A couple of things, Tress, Clov why were you voting No Lynch. I understand your not wanting it to go random argument, but my experience in these sort of games is that people will consolidate at the end of day.

 

Cass, you don't seem to like me asking vig/cop/doc... it's a way of finding out what people think... vig strongest suspect, cop person most unsure of/second strongest suspect (bit more complicated as there are lots of reasons to cop someone), doc strongest town suspect... I don't feel like at the time I had much info to go on for those 2.

Sorry missed this yesterday. You were right that it stood/stands out to me as something to be wary of. I can see the benefit of it (and thanks for going to the effort to explain), I'm just wary that it's probably at least equally as useful as a strategy for scum as it is for Town, and I don't really have much to go on for you, as it stands.

 

Where do you stand?

 

This actually bugs me. Can you explain what you mean by 'not having a lot to go on?' this game in particular given the small player base I've been working hard to post more and be more involved, so for people to 'still' say I'm posting infrequently (Sili), not much to go on (you) is really frustrating.

 

'I don't really have much to go on for you, as it stands' for me means I haven't seen/found too much potentially-actually-scum stuff to make me think you're overly scummy, rather than meaning I thought you hadn't contributed enough. It's not that at all. It's that I hadn't noticed much else in your posts that put me off, and it wasn't meant to bug you - promise.

[Cass]

Townish

 

 

Sili - ironically this has become one of the easiest reads - town. I still don't believe that Sili could maintain the level of involvement and engagement that he has this game if he was mafia. I appreciate that not everybody sees volume as a tell, but Sili has twice the posts of the next highest poster, and almost all have been game related (probably all if you include the ones I don't understand). Beyond that, he was the first to offer reads and has kept them updated constantly and the fact that as more data came in he was suspicious of the same people as me helps that read a lot. there are still a few things I want to check from his town game before I really 'lock' this in though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cass - On reread the paranoia sometimes comes across as sometimes overdone, But more importantly at this stage is the work done (probably the most out of everyone). I don't agree with all of her cases, in particular having read the early case on Clov, I'm left very confused as to why he was an early suspect, given that most of the WoT seems to be her agreeing with him. There are sections of the Sili case that I interpreted differently, but given Sili not reading it to respond, I don't know my interpretation of events is any better :/ I do find her reply to Sili after he said he'd reply to questions and not WoT a little disengenuous since the questions he was 'avoiding' were at the bottom of the WoT, but I can sympathise with the frustration of putting so much work into a case, to have it ignored. Still a strong town read for work done, and also does a good job of looking at everyone and is generally clear as to her opinions on each. Also like Tress said, If Cass is mafia I'm mostly happy to concede the game

 

 

 

 

 

Clov - Early Town read due to attention to detail and early game involvement. In particular I liked the early question of Cass as it showed that he was looking at everyone as suspects. There have only been a couple of things that concern me since. The tone in which he questioned me about tinfoil and Yates about pocketing (I have ONLY ever seen this referred to as mafia pocketing townies) seems different, and Yates response that you 'could' replace it with white knighting (again a term I generally associate with mafia white knighting townies for townie cred) looks bad. I don't want to get into a semantics discussion instead I'm curious about the change in, tone between asking me and Yates (given that his explanation of a town read of Yates is from after this). However the fact that he talked about it first instead of jumping to assumptions looks good. I'm also concerned by his arguments for No Lynch, but it's done and consistent with things he's said out of game so I guess it's null at best, and picking at this to much would be hypocritical :(

 

Something that might be of note is that he never really talks to Thane or Tress Day 1, and I still have some lingering confusion over our back and forth about the tinfoil - once the definition was cleared up, he seemed to be asking ahy I was asking Sili about town stances on people that he hadn't mentioned enough to assume they were out of null - given that this is extremely similar to what he was trying to do early on wrt Sili, Jmm and myself this seems like an odd train of thought. Still town read, but I want to clear up the 'tinfoil' discussion.

 

 

 

 

Then it gets harder :/

 

 

 

 

Honestly not great :/ but last game we were in I read him like this (inconsistency, seemingly random reads that change quickly and rapidly) and he flipped town. When he subbed in he was far less engaged objectively speaking. He didn't engage at all in the Wind in the Door game, although I think that would probably be a low point in his career.

 

This game he's engaged in a way I haven't seen him replicate as mafia yet. Additionally some of your points read differently to me as for once I was able to have in thread interaction.

 

Thanks for explaining. I went back and re-read trying to take some of this on board. Quoting here now as a reminder in case he does flip scum and it turns out that you're 'wrong' ;)

 

To be honest, I'm worried that I'm wrong and that I'll be left with nothing but flipping a coin to determine alignment

 

BFG, had something changed in your read of Sili between these two posts?

 

Why would you be left with 'nothing but flipping a coin' to determine his alignment, after giving several reasons why he was one of your 'easiest' Town reads?  

[Cass]

And that's me for the evening folks, my brain is going in circles...Being a good girl and going to bed before 2am tonight though - Yey Sleep! Go me! 

 

Good night /GL!

[BFG]

Good evening :)

[Thane Vakarian]

good evening BFG

 

I'm sorta here, following belgian news quite closely for the moment

[BFG]

Once again spent lunch writing thoughts... I can see that Cass has addressed a fair bit to me, but I'll post this and then get back to new stuff :)

 

Now that Thane has moved up my list, I'm no longer confident in any of my reads. But this is what I remember, I've bolded the stuff that seems more important to me.

 

Tress

 

 

Thane

+ early game talk

- MIA

+ reaction to Jmm

+ EOD 1 (chatter/presence/changing reads)

+ More involved Day 2

+ POE reads & reasoning

~ Read on Sili changed about and was explained, but otherwise reads seem static - difficult to judge without flips though.

+ Yates in bottom 2

~ Chose Clov to push over Yates - null given that Clov hasn't flipped yet.

~ Big problem is that IF Thane is mafia with Yates then he's probably been made well aware of his town meta, making it worthless at this point.

+ Sili had him as town early through tone?

 

Overall Thane looks good to me right now. The MIA stuff has a higher weighting than the single point it's mentioned in above and will keep me paranoid all game, but it's pretty much the only negative I have right now.

 

 

 

I cleared both Clov and Cass early in the game and kind of shelved them while looking at other people, but given that Thane is looking good, I've likely miscleared one.

 

Cass

+ effort

+ paranoia

~ listing everyone who posted a few times as a mafia suspect - made a bit more nullish since I suspect Cass approaches the game thinking everyone's mafia and only gives out town reads because not everyone 'can' be mafia.

- not understanding why she ends up thinking that Clov is mafia

+ early suspicion of Yates...

- but never really pushed

~ Cass puts a lot of effort in as town, would she do less as mafia?

+ Willingness to consider other peoples opinions

- Saying that Thane is parrotting her reads (from her reread/ISO of the Early Game - he wasn't, he'd voiced suspicions first)

+ Cases are very good in the detail, but...

- occasionally seem to miss the bigger picture,

+ BUT, this level of detail would be very hard for mafia to fake I think, I'm just paranoid that a Mafia!Cass could be that good.

- stuck on Sili for a long time.

+ Has made EVERYONE's Town list - except Jmm's - pretty much all game, so it probably is just paranoia on my part.

~ When she stopped focusing on Sili seemed to lose focus on what she was thinking?

- concerned that the chief thing I remember about Cass is her push on Sili

 

 

There are lots of good things about Cass this game that revolve around her work effort and attention to detail, which makes me more worried by errors. I'm hopefully just paranoid that she could be that good as Mafia!Cass.

 

 

 

Clov

+ early game involvement - helps to kickstart the game with questioning of Sili

- that early involvement doesn't seem to follow through?

+ early questioning of both Cass & Sili

~ attention to detail - it's good, but something mafia!Clov can do as well

- similar to Yates, Clov hasn't had the impact I expect from a Town!Clov

- read on Yates seems to miss 'basic' stuff

~ until today, seems to be 'on' peoples suspect list, but never pushed. Not sure how to weight this one given the size of the game, there are probably a number of people you could make that argument for, but Clov isn't ever a 'real' mislynch candidate for mafia to nudge or push.

+ explains what he meant by the tinfoil argument

+ was asking questions instead of jumping to conclusions

- yet in explaining that Yates 'seemed' to have a similar mindset to him (over the tinfoil argument) apparantly misses that Yates was pushing a Sili TMI, and basically +1'd Clov's suspicion on me

-> mafia working together in an attempt to disrupt town working together by pushing both sides, or Mafia!Yates trying to pocket Town!Clov?

- 'doesn't sound like mafia BFG' feels a bit 'buddyish' since Thane is the only one in the game that's played a game with Mafia!BFG and that game was 9 months ago and my style has 'evolved' since then, I'm not sure why he thinks he knows what mafia!BFG would be like (what can I say RandomOrg can see into my soul and knows that I am, and always will be Town; alternatively I am the anti-Leelou).

- started hunting for Yates spew, but hasn't gotten very far and so far has only considered the Yates side of things, given that he's in the bottom end of some peoples POE I would have expected more.

- nudges Thane towards a conclusion that I'm mafia based on Yates spew.

 

 

 

Clov hasn't had the impact this game that I would have thought he would and doesn't seem as involved. His read on Yates seems to have holes in it that I really wouldn't expect from Town!Clov. But the early game involvement/'kickstart' was pro-town.

[BFG]

good evening BFG

 

I'm sorta here, following belgian news quite closely for the moment

Stay safe! I hope you're not too close :/

[Thane Vakarian]

 

good evening BFG

 

I'm sorta here, following belgian news quite closely for the moment

Stay safe! I hope you're not too close :/

 

appearantly it's multiple actions nationwide, still ongoing. So, yeah, i'll keep an eye on the news before leaving work and heading home. I'm good though, basically have the safest place in belgium at work.

[BFG]

 

 

good evening BFG

 

I'm sorta here, following belgian news quite closely for the moment

Stay safe! I hope you're not too close :/

 

appearantly it's multiple actions nationwide, still ongoing. So, yeah, i'll keep an eye on the news before leaving work and heading home. I'm good though, basically have the safest place in belgium at work.

 

that's good to hear

[BFG]

The safe place to work, not the multiple events thing

[BFG]

Hey all, got some sleep and should be able to post most of my catchup questions/responses during ponylette's nap today (soon) yey!

 

 

 

Cass,

 

- When you were rereading considering that Sili might be town were you re reading the thread or via. ISO?

 

- I also asked you why you had Clov as a mafia suspect when you were agreeing with what he said? Yet when you responded to Clov it sounded like you were reading him as town after all?

- Both, often I needed the context of thread to try and work out what he was saying - why?

 

- I was/am paranoid about the possibility of Clov subtly setting me up as a Wolf, and I think I've explained that several times (can't remember if it was specifically in relation to a question you asked me directly or not, sorry if I missed something ) I'm not sure what you mean by 'it sounded like you were reading him as town' - at least not in the earlier game when I was more concerned about the Clov-Sili interactions feeling pretty strongly to me like something was off. As far as I can remember I was generally fishing for more from him because my gut feel had me uncertain even though I could understand the logic of what he said. I don't see how that suggests I was reading him as Town. Can you explain/give examples of what you mean?

 

Sorry, saw this this morning but didn't have time to respond.

 

Because Thane's reads were on thread first, so it seems odd to accuse him of repeating your reads (although I think he did say 'basically yours as well'.

 

The second question was in response to this

 

 

I don't know, maybe I'm biased here, but her posts seem like she SHOULD have been reading me as town. She had one solid complaint about what I had posted, which was me asking Sili for insinuating she couldn't make her opening as scum, so she started to be concerned I was setting her up. Even though that wasn't remotely possible by what I had said. So she ignores multiple things I said that she agreed with?

I wouldn't say 'ignored' I would say 'decided not to tinfoil on.'

 

I think that decision will have to change now though. Logically, your defense of Yates could be plausibly sus, Even though it didn't seem too off to me at the time - you have more experience than me and seem less prone to over-paranoia, and potentially like you play the game hunting Town, not scum. However, although I didn't have much more than wary/uneasy gut to go on against him, I could never come up with anything myself about his play that reassured me he was not scum. At the time, I may have been prone to accepting your defense of him because I felt rather good about you.

 

But now? What if I was wrong??

 

I had other people creeping up my scummy list, but now I have to double my work and go back, comparing them to you.

This is why I don't like clearing people likely Town...

 

In your initial read post on Clov you agreed with him in places which made the mafia read a little unexpected. But in your post above you seem to be saying that you were 'not tinfoiling' (thinking negatively/changing from a town to mafia read) on Clov because he agreed with you, which seems unusual.

 

I had been asking how your initial read of Clov was formed, but I'll wait and see if I understand it more clearly in a reread/ISO

[Niniel]

Good evening everyone. I´m sorry to say that work has been just too much and I´m not feeling good right now. I will hopefully pop in later to give you a new VC, but if I can´t then I´ll be back tomorrow. Unfortunately work will be tough tomorrow too. Luckily weekend starts tomorrow. :) 

 

 

Clove (1) - Thane

 

Not voting: Tress, BFG, Clov, Cass

 

 

With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch.

 

Deadline is Saturday 9 PM CET. http://www.timeandda...msg=Deadline D2

 

 

My dear ponies, I have to go to bed early today. See you all tomorrow. 

 

[Clovdyx]

@ Clov

 

(Quotes all-spoilered in case it helps deal with dodgy formatting)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@ Clov - Just that it was odd that he would 'call' me Town 'like everyone else' but do it in a way that casts doubt/insinuates that I might be different from the others he listed...

 

Kinda feels like the same as my first game where the Scum mostly said 'I have her as Town,' and then carefully insinuated it was possible I could be Scum because it was plausible that I could be being helped. The doubt that move cast over the rest of Town haunted/followed me for the whole freaking game.

 

I feel like it was a search for something similar to push against me in this game: 'I have her as Town, BUT she could be pulling the wool over your eyes/could be Scum now because even though she's fairly new, she's had experience being Scum before...'

 

Since I know I'm Town again (and probably also because I'm once bitten, twice shy) it pings/makes me wary.

 

Does that make any sense? (I'm typing this on phone whilst trying not to ignore the toddler - let me know if doesn't)

 

Also, you read the last game, right? Do you think something different??

 

@ Sili - Do you have links to a recent Town game at all?

 

Going out to lunch/running errands now, back tonight when the kid's in bed - GL!

 

I was more concerned with him using a conditional he already knew the answer to.  That is, he's somewhat familiar with the games you've played, so he new the answer to  "Have you played a bunch of scum games?" would be no.  That would allow him to lock you in as town, based on what he said earlier.

 

Basically a cheap way to justify a TMI "read".

 

 

I dont think i would read me as a wolf if i knew me so i dont see what u see tress.

 

Current reads are

 

Yates town

Clov town

Cass town

Tress town

Bfg town

 

Jmm scum.

 

Expect me to itterate heavily in the background. Sometimes ppl find it fishy that i nudge and swap targets but i like to give reads breathing room. It also creates content. If something is important ill usually elaborate to persuade people

 

What makes you think BFG is town?  Jmm scum?  Neither of those seem like they should be above null to me.

 

 

Thane is also town in the derp clear sort of way.

 

He says the wolf instead of a wolf. Its a tentative meta read premised on him being selective about his word choice if he ever rands mafia for me.

 

....what?

 

 

Clov, I agree with the TMI thing here. Potentially scummy Sili-you interactions aside, this post comes across as fairly towny. Only gripe I have is that you didn't actually answer whether or not my own train of thought also made sense to you and if you actually read the game I was talking about/the interactions that made me 'paranoid'.

 

 

Not sure if you expected me to, but on re-read I realised I never really got back to you about this. 

 

 

 

Quote chopping ITT.

 

Sili

In a nutshell, at this point, I'm totally reading you as scum (again), but I'm interested in some elaboration from you before I vote.

 

- What are your thoughts/reactions to the above?

- Why should we be reading you as Town?

- What's the difference in your mind between a Town 'read' and a Town 'lean'?

- What was your reason for suggesting Clov was a likely Wolf? Do you have a reason for not elaborating at the time?

- You said chopping and changing is normal for you, and that you like to 'give your reads breathing room', but you 'pushed' Clov at least twice before suddenly dropping him and saying he actually seemed fine. Why?

- Why is jmm's question about the number of wolves scummy?

- How can you say you have Clov as Town because your interactions were 'likely v/v violence', but then claim you're 'spewed' clear if he is Scum? I can't follow that logic/don't see anything that points to either of these btw.

 

 

The whole post seems like a genuine attempt at trying to get a read on Sili, so I think that looks really good for Cass.  The questions in red especially sound like she's trying to understand how he's playing.  Only way she's mafia here is if she's going for a very long set up on him being inconsistent (or completely wasting time, I guess).  I don't think that's the case.  I'm pretty comfortable calling Cass town for where we're at.

 

 

My plan is to pocket you.  See how you respond.  Serious question; when is the last time I read you wrong?  I want to see that comfortable, free thinking, shoot from the hip Thane Town so I'm setting you up for it.  And if a "Be Nice" game isn't the proper format to get you to that place, I don't know what is.

 

Yates, can you elaborate on what you mean by pocket him here?  The end of the post seems to be a reasonably pro-town thing to do, but I'm getting hung up on the first sentence.  You don't normally see that expression used as a positive thing, or as a way of helping somebody establish themselves, as you seem to be doing with Thane.

 

 

I'll need to account for his lack of games but my thinking was his posts were too 'excited', and didn't say much. He only asks one question, how many mafia there are in an 8 person team with his second post. -felt like he might have done it just for town cred the way it was phrased.

 

 

Jmm, to that point.

 

 

 

 

 

Greetings and salutations, fellow ponies. 

 

-----------------

 

This is the extent of my MLP knowledge: 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zHZj8Xp-Ik

 

 

Experienced mafia-ers: 

 

With 8 are we looking at 2 or 1 mafia probably? 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't see how you can possibly say he's been particularly excited.  More importantly, why is that alignment indicative?  I think most people associate having fun and being easy going as towntelling, because it reduces the concern they're hiding something.  I don't know there's much truth to it, but it seems to make more sense than somebody being scummy for it.

 

The second point is reasonable enough, I suppose.

 

Massive quote chopping in the one below.

 

 

 

 

- Picks up the 'pressure' on Sili. Uses Sili's 'read' of me as the base:

Valid but ... *shoves on tinfoil hat*... parts 'fit' my current theory that Sili and Clov are W-W, and my concern that I'm being set up by Scum again.

 

- Says he's confused as to how Sili can take a hard stance on my alignment based on my first post.

Agree with this, but then

 

- Asks why I'm 'incapable' of making that post as scum?

My opening being null is a valid point in theory, but in practice I don't like that he uses the word 'incapable' here, in a tone that suggests he's saying I'm actually 'capable' of making that post as scum. Same potential as before. Scum casting doubt on my alignment based on 'questions' of my ability. Sili 'brushes this off' by saying 'she's not incapable?'. Tinfoily as all bollocks? Maybe. Either way, I don't like it. 

 

 

- Pushes harder at Sili for saying 'All my reads are tentative of course' so early on, and questions the caveat Sili put on his read of me compared to others.

This actually came across as Town to me (and was the part I was referring to when I mentioned the partial mind-meld with Clov).

 

- Talks about the 'relevance' of their 'different' opinions and the fact that he's considering Sili might be scum.

Ok, but slightly off. Feels kind of fake. He say's he'd rather 'try to judge' Sili on his reads than on 'meaningless posts' from the first page, but did judge him there. And then agrees that 'miscommunication' doesn't make someone scum and (?over) explains the possibility that Sili's PM may have made him scum and that it's his job to figure that out. Appeals for Town cred by essentially explaining stuff that is rather obvious, and then associating himself with 'everyone's' likely reasoning (bold in spoiler).

 

 

 

 

 

Questions me directly

- Says he's not sure how me being set up as scum by scum would work.

- Asks me what I'm thinking/to explain.

Maybe I wasn't overly clear in my initial statements to Sili, but I found Clov asking for explanations on this odd because i)at the end of the last game, I thought it was pretty obvious that this had been one of scum's main ploys when it came to me, and ii) I distinctly remember Clov commenting on the DT/after the game. I kind of made these points in my response (bold in the spoiler). He hasn't posted since asking me the initial question, so I'm still waiting to see what comes up in his response to my explanation.

 

Other

Pretty much null

 

- Jokes in response to Yate's first post

Seemed purposefully flippant, but not necessarily scummy.

 

- Answers jmm's question about the number of scum likely to be in this game

Says two. Initially I took this as Town/null, and nobody else experienced has contradicted the answer so it's probably correct, but, just to dot i's and cross t's can the mod/other experienced players please confirm this is right, please?

 

 

@ Clov

 

It's not much to go on yet, but already I'm reading your posts with a scummish lean, especially in relation to Sili/points raised by Sili. At this point you seem to be the second most likely wolf to me. I know I haven't played a proper game with you and could just be tinfoiling/reading you all wrong so I'm interested to know your thoughts/figure this out further.

 

- What are your responses/reactions to the above?

- What is your current read on Sili, and why? 

 

 

 

Red - Well, yeah, that would be the implication there.  I think your opening post was pretty null, so the way Sili presented his thoughts on it seemed strange - I didn't feel there was anything that was alignment indicative so him implying you would have had to get massive Mafia (alignment, not the game) experience to make it as Mafia was off.  Bold red behind it though is a bad conclusion, though.  I'm not "casting doubt" on your alignment, and my stance had nothing to do with your ability.  I was casting doubt on what appeared to be a strong read off nothing.

 

As for the rest of it, honestly, most of it seems to be paranoia/tinfoiling.  You and I seem to have been seeing the thread the same way early on.  From your POV, I can understand (and appreciate) some concern that maybe I'm trying to side with you or something, but I think it's a little early to worry about that.

 

Section highlighted in blue is something that stood out to me as more than just tinfoiling.  If you feel it felt fake, I can't really do/say anything to refute that.  You're wrong about me judging him based off the first page fluff, though.  My read from him in post #29 is based on him

 

1) moving on from a presumable joke vote of BFG

2) his "vibes"

 

Effort isn't much to go on, but for the first few hours of the phase, I can appreciate somebody trying to get down to business.  Like I said, it wasn't very strong, but it was a better option that making a guess based on initial posts and mod-directed spam.

 

Now I'm feeling worse about him.  His justification for reading you as town as early as he did seems based off nothing, and his explanation on reading jmm just doesn't make sense to me.  It doesn't seem like he's reading the same thread I am.

 

 

The things that bother me here/read to me as having the potential to be off are in bold red.

 

The first part is highlighted because it honestly still reads to me like it could have been intended either way, and if you did mean to cast that subtle doubt... *insert previous argument about not liking being set up this way previously by scum here*

 

The second part stung only because of the barb in the tail. Given that it was early after my interaction in the last game that this concerning tactic started, I don't think any time would be 'too early' to 'worry' about that. I highlighted it the instant it felt similar to me to avoid the possibility of having to contradict/deal with it the entire game again - and it may be because it was nothing or something this time, but it hasn't happened since so I don't regret voicing my concerns.

 

The third part bothered me more before your answer at EoD about not being overly certain about the read than it does now

(but if Sili flips scum it will probably bother me somewhat again lol)

 

 

 

From the top - 

 

It made sense, but it didn't seem likely.  Setting you up with a town read and then reversing it right after would have looked worse on him than you IMO.  And no, I wasn't really expecting you to follow up with it, but I appreciate you doing so.

 

 

From the bottom - 

 

First part - if that's how it reads to you, that's how it reads to you.  I wrote what I wrote and explained why I wrote it that way.  If you see it differently, there's nothing I can really do about it at this point, besides point out that I obviously haven't tried to use it against you...so if I was going to, it didn't pan out that way?

 

Second - I'm not sure what tactic you're referring to.  I would guess trying to set you up, but that doesn't really mesh with what I was conveying in that section - which was that I felt it was too early to start being concerned with likely town reads actually being mafia.  Of course I'm all for keeping reads fluid with the game thread, but I think you have to trust your reads to be reliable, until that person gives you something to change them for.  As it applied here, you and I seemed to agree on a lot early and your posts seemed to suggest that I was a slight townlean.  To immediately turn to the aspect of being wrong just seemed a bit much.

 

Third - I'm not sure what you're saying here, or why him flipping scum would bother you.  Can you elaborate on what bothered you about it?

 

 

 

 

The first part - yup 

 

Second - I'm still not sure if you're denying that it's a tactic or saying you weren't trying to use it, or both... And yes, this relates to being set up. If that's not what you were doing then it's not what you were doing, but it's still a logical potential in my mind.

I will probably always be concerned that my otherwise townish reads are actually based on mafia being scummy.  I can't help but feel more comfortable trusting my 'that could be scummy' intuition more and I think I operate the opposite, people coming across ok remain potentially clever scum, people coming across scummy probably just are scum, and I go after the person I'm finding/feeling the scummiest at the time. Guilty until 'proven' innocent, in a sense. Still possible that I'm going to be wrong and tinfoil on the wrong player (   Sili), but a little less likely that I'm going to get duped somewhere along the line by clever scum and possibly let them go, I would hope at least. I don't know where the impression of a 'slight townlean' came from (until at least after the posts at EOD1, where I might have started to read you with a slight change also). Yes, I found myself agreeing logically/theoretically with your push at Sili and some of the points you made, but I distinctly remember being bothered by the feeling/tone that I may be being set up. I had you as my second strongest scum lean - with Sili as your likely partner, and I said I was reading your posts with a scummish lean. You were in my 'logically-clean-associatively-and-tonally-disturbing' pile. For me that most likely equates to a wolf being wolfy and just being clever enough to avoid doing anything overtly wrong. Can you explain where you thought I had you down as Town, at that point?

 

Third - If Sili had flipped scum, it would have bothered me a little more that I had this concern/feeling/paranoia about you early in the game (that maybe the two of you were setting me up), and then that later, you said you felt worse about him (looks good to Town) but didn't vote for him (put off a lynch). Basically, it would have added to the other things about your play that were keeping me on guard, and that would've been another, stronger potential indication that you were scum.

 

That's pretty much it, in a nutshell, although now I'm more concerned again because of the potential w-w in you and Yates.

 

I thought you would/SHOULD have had me down as town, because I will never be able to wrap my head around "Yeah, that argument makes sense.  I agree with him on that.  This part sounds reasonable.  Eh, he's probably scum though."

 

I get that it's your "thing" to always have some doubts you're being tricked or somebody's working an angle, but this is a team game - I would expect the people you to trust most to be the one's approaching the game in a similar manner as you and seeing things the same way you are.  You can both be wrong, and they CAN be mafia, but I'm not sure that's the likeliest scenario.

[Clovdyx]

God, that quote chain is going to get annoying.

[BFG]

 

Cass are these from a reread or through ISO?

 

 

 

Ok *gets serious* Have sat down and re-read to here (Thane's post #80).

 

In a nutshell, my gut reads this far are that Sili, followed by possibly Clov and Yates, are coming across somewhat wilfish.

 

Everyone else has posted and seems null so far, although I'm interested to see more from jmm and BFG - all I know of jmm is the beginning of the last DM game (Tress'), which isn't much, and I can't recall seeing BFG in any of the games I've read to date.

 

Explanations for gut reads are coming next, but I'm working on mobile so thought it was best to get the basics up before I get bogged down.

 

Wish me luck.

 

 

i'm always cautious and selective on what and how i write things in a mafia game. On that note... from everything i've been reading here, you do feel/look wolfiest for the moment Sili.

 

 

second place is for Clov...

 

Got the feeling you're both too defensive THIS early in the game

 

 

 

 

good luck!

 

Are you feeling confident about winning this one?

Thank-you! *hugs the law-breaker*

 

Confident about winning? Um, I feel fairly 'happy' with my gut reads (for the moment, *g*) ... but I can't honestly say that I'm 'confident' about them *rolls eyes at self*... Does that make sense?

 

What reads/leans do you have so far?

 

Basically the same as yours actually. For the moment, Sili and Clov feel worst. Don't get any other bad vibes here. Cautious about jmm, seeing i don't know his game. Will be interesting to see how things develop this game.

 

 

 

Oh, Yates, i know you appreciate games we're both in, and you're quite capable in reading me, but don't try to buddy too hard, might be suspicious

You need to check out the beer thread.  I had a super rare Belgian beer the other night and thought of you...  

 

My plan is to pocket you.  See how you respond.  Serious question; when is the last time I read you wrong?  I want to see that comfortable, free thinking, shoot from the hip Thane Town so I'm setting you up for it.  And if a "Be Nice" game isn't the proper format to get you to that place, I don't know what is.

 

You're indeed quite often right about reading me. And, you don't need to set me up as Thane Town, i'm already Town in this game. And i like to hunt wolves (seriously, i need fur)

 

 

Initially I took this as Town/null, and nobody else experienced has contradicted the answer so it's probably correct, but, just to dot i's and cross t's can the mod/other experienced players please confirm this is right, please?

Depending on powers and balance and stuff like that, scum are usually 25% of the game. So yes, we are likely dealing with two scum.

 

yup, i think so too. 25% scum = 2 wolves. Which we can get to fast if we eliminate the most obvious townies first. Good thing is that most players only need to look into 7 people. Besides me, i think Tress and Cass are most likely town, so i'm down to checking 4 players (with the other two in the back of my mind, depending on how the game develops)

 

 

 

Thane, this might be nothing more than a Towny coincidence, and it's really the only thing I've seen of you so far that might actually be suspicious (especially in the re-reads where I'm trying to consider things from the perspective that Sili is Town), but, the red. The way when I ask what reads/leans you have you give me nothing back other than things I've already said myself. There's nothing new, nothing different.

 

Did you really have no other reads/leans/ideas at this point, or was there another reason you weren't sharing? 

 

FWIW, I think there may be a couple of plausible reasons why this next point doesn't necessarily mean you're scummy, but this paranoia brings me back to the fact that I can't help but feel you're playing differently this game. Can you explain why you're coming across more guarded this time around (other than the possibility that you're Scum)??

 

 

 

Not sure why this seems to be quoted out of sequence, bit look at the time stamps

 

Thane's reads were on thread prior to yours (you mentioned being suspicious of Sili but not Clov)

 

Couldn't tell you for sure where this came from (sorry). If it helps, I open new tabs from both thread and ISO reads and copy quotes, wherever stuff stands out? 

 

i) I can't see where it's quoted out of sequence? This is what I see:

 

Quoted text

Thane 8 Jan 09:08am: Are you feeling confident?

Cass 9 Jan 01:4am: No. What reads do you have?

Thane 9 Jan 03:55am: Basically the same as yours actually...

 

Follow-up/re-read 

Cass 12 Jan, 5:08pm - Thane, this might be nothing but I find it weird that you say the same thing as me and give me nothing new, and now I'm freaking out that there's a wolfy reason that you're playing differently to last time you were town...

 

(Did you miss the change from 8 - 9 Jan?)

 

 

ii) My problem wasn't the timing of those reads in the thread, it was that when I asked him for his current reads/leans (meaning all of them, although on a re-read that maybe wasn't clear) he gave me nothing new/extra/nothing on anybody else - blue bold above.

 

Does that help?

 

I had difficulty collecting the quotes, I had different browser tabs open and the multiquote wasn't picking up all the quotes as normal /bygones. The only one that's out of sequence to me is your 'get serious' happens after the 2 from Thane, i.e. his read was in thread first.

 

ii, that helps a lot :) since it was only 12 hours between his initial reads and your question on the 8th (no 9th for me) I was interested in how you were doing your reread, since I wondered if you'd missed his reads when you asked the question on the 12th, of that makes sense?

[BFG]

 

 

 

Good morning :)

 

I got caught up rereading yesterday. Unfortunately I don't have time to write my thoughts before work. I more or less finished Day 1, there are a couple of pages I skimmed through which I want to check.

 

A couple of things, Tress, Clov why were you voting No Lynch. I understand your not wanting it to go random argument, but my experience in these sort of games is that people will consolidate at the end of day.

 

Cass, you don't seem to like me asking vig/cop/doc... it's a way of finding out what people think... vig strongest suspect, cop person most unsure of/second strongest suspect (bit more complicated as there are lots of reasons to cop someone), doc strongest town suspect... I don't feel like at the time I had much info to go on for those 2.

Sorry missed this yesterday. You were right that it stood/stands out to me as something to be wary of. I can see the benefit of it (and thanks for going to the effort to explain), I'm just wary that it's probably at least equally as useful as a strategy for scum as it is for Town, and I don't really have much to go on for you, as it stands.

 

Where do you stand?

 

This actually bugs me. Can you explain what you mean by 'not having a lot to go on?' this game in particular given the small player base I've been working hard to post more and be more involved, so for people to 'still' say I'm posting infrequently (Sili), not much to go on (you) is really frustrating.

 

'I don't really have much to go on for you, as it stands' for me means I haven't seen/found too much potentially-actually-scum stuff to make me think you're overly scummy, rather than meaning I thought you hadn't contributed enough. It's not that at all. It's that I hadn't noticed much else in your posts that put me off, and it wasn't meant to bug you - promise.

 

Lol no worries, I think I was irritated yesterday. Thanks for explaining though

[Clovdyx]

BFG, if I ask you a simple and direct question, will you give me an honest and direct answer?  Please. :)

[BFG]

 

Townish

 

 

Sili - ironically this has become one of the easiest reads - town. I still don't believe that Sili could maintain the level of involvement and engagement that he has this game if he was mafia. I appreciate that not everybody sees volume as a tell, but Sili has twice the posts of the next highest poster, and almost all have been game related (probably all if you include the ones I don't understand). Beyond that, he was the first to offer reads and has kept them updated constantly and the fact that as more data came in he was suspicious of the same people as me helps that read a lot. there are still a few things I want to check from his town game before I really 'lock' this in though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cass - On reread the paranoia sometimes comes across as sometimes overdone, But more importantly at this stage is the work done (probably the most out of everyone). I don't agree with all of her cases, in particular having read the early case on Clov, I'm left very confused as to why he was an early suspect, given that most of the WoT seems to be her agreeing with him. There are sections of the Sili case that I interpreted differently, but given Sili not reading it to respond, I don't know my interpretation of events is any better :/ I do find her reply to Sili after he said he'd reply to questions and not WoT a little disengenuous since the questions he was 'avoiding' were at the bottom of the WoT, but I can sympathise with the frustration of putting so much work into a case, to have it ignored. Still a strong town read for work done, and also does a good job of looking at everyone and is generally clear as to her opinions on each. Also like Tress said, If Cass is mafia I'm mostly happy to concede the game

 

 

 

 

 

Clov - Early Town read due to attention to detail and early game involvement. In particular I liked the early question of Cass as it showed that he was looking at everyone as suspects. There have only been a couple of things that concern me since. The tone in which he questioned me about tinfoil and Yates about pocketing (I have ONLY ever seen this referred to as mafia pocketing townies) seems different, and Yates response that you 'could' replace it with white knighting (again a term I generally associate with mafia white knighting townies for townie cred) looks bad. I don't want to get into a semantics discussion instead I'm curious about the change in, tone between asking me and Yates (given that his explanation of a town read of Yates is from after this). However the fact that he talked about it first instead of jumping to assumptions looks good. I'm also concerned by his arguments for No Lynch, but it's done and consistent with things he's said out of game so I guess it's null at best, and picking at this to much would be hypocritical :(

 

Something that might be of note is that he never really talks to Thane or Tress Day 1, and I still have some lingering confusion over our back and forth about the tinfoil - once the definition was cleared up, he seemed to be asking ahy I was asking Sili about town stances on people that he hadn't mentioned enough to assume they were out of null - given that this is extremely similar to what he was trying to do early on wrt Sili, Jmm and myself this seems like an odd train of thought. Still town read, but I want to clear up the 'tinfoil' discussion.

 

 

 

 

Then it gets harder :/

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly not great :/ but last game we were in I read him like this (inconsistency, seemingly random reads that change quickly and rapidly) and he flipped town. When he subbed in he was far less engaged objectively speaking. He didn't engage at all in the Wind in the Door game, although I think that would probably be a low point in his career.

 

This game he's engaged in a way I haven't seen him replicate as mafia yet. Additionally some of your points read differently to me as for once I was able to have in thread interaction.

 

Thanks for explaining. I went back and re-read trying to take some of this on board. Quoting here now as a reminder in case he does flip scum and it turns out that you're 'wrong' ;)

 

To be honest, I'm worried that I'm wrong and that I'll be left with nothing but flipping a coin to determine alignment

 

BFG, had something changed in your read of Sili between these two posts?

 

Why would you be left with 'nothing but flipping a coin' to determine his alignment, after giving several reasons why he was one of your 'easiest' Town reads?

 

Nothing changed, I was still reading Sili as town *this game*. I meant that if I was wrong on Sili this game, then in future games I'd have nothing to base a read on him off.