[Basic]: Be Nice Mafia

[Sili Quirrels]

Basically, the first part to me is suggestive that you're wilfy because I would expect Town in that context to say 'find' or 'have' a pound of logic rather than suggest that it is something you can just 'add' specifically if you have the choice - especially if you're claiming that you didn't already have 'a strong case'/much to go on - which is what you'd previously said.

 

 

you're essentially saying i shouldn't have treated arguments like a resource when they kind of are if you're planning out strategies. is that about right?

 

well the argument i had in reserve, e.g. the tone read on hand, was a resource i opted not to post. I had found a reason to think  a certain way already, or i wouldn't have said anything. =\

 

(i'm speaking here as role-neutral so there's no misunderstanding)

[BFG]

 

@Sili - Serious question; why did you say this: "don't know why the wolves thought jmm would be a power role?" You are a clever pony and I'd like some help understanding your motivation here.

Easy villa points. Plus I had to distance myself from the kill due to a couple things I said and the way things went down at eod.

 

 

Eh?

 

maybe tress and thane. =/

Eh?

 

 

or bfg and tress?

Eh?

[Thane Vakarian]

 

I'm fighting off a cold and drained after 6+ hours of NFL Playoffs and chores. So I'm too lazy to do my typical Yates quote then respond thing...

 

@Cass - I understand that you think I'm buddying you. That's fine. Just be sure to keep two pieces of information in mind as you evaluate that opinion; 1. I have you solid Town for reasons already stated [primarily a level of effort/paranoia/game solving that I can't see being faked by a 1st time scum] and 2. This is a be nice game. I feel like I've been buddying everyone. It's unnatural...

 

@Sili - Serious question; why did you say this: "don't know why the wolves thought jmm would be a power role?" You are a clever pony and I'd like some help understanding your motivation here.

 

@Clov - I think your argument with Sili wrt Thane is [was?] a misunderstanding. It looks like you two may have worked it out but I'm going to give you my impression anyway since I wasn't here to interact/intercede in real time. Sili is saying that Thane didn't bother "reading" JMM, he just saw something he considered a PR hint and dropped all suspicion entirely. I happen to agree with this narrative. Thane said he was "cautious" of JMM having never played with him [in post 98]. Then Thane voted JMM "on a hunch" in post 308 - but never really explained how he got there since the only scum reads he *had* explained at the time were on you and Sili. JMM made his "You will not be happy with the result if you lynch me" post in post 311. Then in post 328 Thane unvotes saying "By what you hint, jmm, you're valuable to town.... if i can understand that, so can the wolves." You were asserting that Thane choosing to believe JMM means Thane decided to read JMM as Town. But I agree with Sili that it wasn't actually a "read" so much as Thane saw a PR hint and decided to abandon the wagon. I actually *am* [usually] the Thane whisperer and I don't recall him accepting PR hints as reason enough to abandon a scum read unless others abandoned first. So, I share in Sili's concern. Otherwise, I like where your head is at.

 

@Thane - Am I wrong about what I just said? I feel like you don't typically accept PR hints on your scum suspects at face value. PR claims? Maybe a different story... What made you bail on JMM? Also, is there something preventing you from posting as often as you typically do? This is a small game so your thoughts and opinions are really super important to share. Like, more important than in the larger games that you were much more active in. I miss you.

 

@Tress - Two questions for you, my lovely: 1. Would you mind explaining to me your read on BFG? I think you have more experience with her than I do and I'd like to know what you are seeing. And 2. Would you mind explaining your Thane read a little more as well? I'm a little confused as I read through your progression on him because sometimes it looks to me like you think he's scum but then you also say he is likely being "set up."

 

@BFG - You are a pretty pony. Won't you come out and play?

This to you? Why say that you didn't want to talk about the 'tinfoil' thing that Clov brought up

 

...

 

 

 

link me?

 

 

Also I think you've been in all of my recent games, I had a sort of break over Summer and haven't played as much recently

it could well be that i have been....

[Songstress]

 

 

Mixed feelings are understandable, but I don't see how you can't have some sort of idea on which way you want to go (ie reads), unless you're not trying to figure people's alignments out. Just offering up names when somebody asks doesn't get us anywhere and it makes YOU harder to read for the rest of us.

^^ *nod*

 

The thing that's really bothering me right now is that he's refusing to be accountable for his reads - to the point of denying that they ARE reads.

I knew I'd missed this :/ same question as Clov, why didn't you bring it up with Yates earlier?

Want to make sure I'm not missing something myself - can you clarify the question? Bring what up with Yates when, in particular?

[BFG]

For Thane

 

 

I don't really get this impression at all from their interactions.  There is something that stood out to me, but I'm hoping you can give an example or explain what you mean before I show it.

As I told Sili, it's mostly tone. Let me see if I can pull up a quote or two that really emphasizes what I mean...

 

Okay, here's I think the exchange that felt too familiar to me:

 

Lol, misunderstood what you said, I agree with the general meta on Thane. I disagree with 'the wolf' though, it reads as a continuation of 'teh mafia' started by Tress and thus a deliberate use of words and not an unconscious use.

ah i see. i'm still leaning town on him but i'm a little more scared now. i'll be watching him carefully.

Sure. MAYBE Sili is just "working together," as he says. But something about that doesn't feel natural if Sili is assuming BFG is scum.

 

But the other thing that bothers me is the same thing I just busted Sili for:

Sili, given 2 mafia who are you most likely to tinfoil on at the moment?

Here, BFG is assuming Sili is Town. That's why I said earlier that it felt like at least one of them knew the other's alignment. And it's not like BFG really went after Sili. That whole page reads like a limp distancing argument. And that's in my minus column for BFG. This isn't really something I was prepared to talk about but it seems as though the cat's out of the bag so let's make it public and discuss...

 

[BFG]

EBWOP the play in all my recent games was at Yates, you've been in most? Silk and Tress I'm a couple, Tbh I can't remember many of the games recently, plays been bad enough I want to forget :/

[BFG]

 

 

 

Mixed feelings are understandable, but I don't see how you can't have some sort of idea on which way you want to go (ie reads), unless you're not trying to figure people's alignments out. Just offering up names when somebody asks doesn't get us anywhere and it makes YOU harder to read for the rest of us.

^^ *nod*

 

The thing that's really bothering me right now is that he's refusing to be accountable for his reads - to the point of denying that they ARE reads.

 

I knew I'd missed this :/ same question as Clov, why didn't you bring it up with Yates earlier?

 

Want to make sure I'm not missing something myself - can you clarify the question? Bring what up with Yates when, in particular?

 

 

Yates quote is below. Basically he states that he hasn't called Sili mafia outside of the 'reaction test' but this is when he seems to be informing his mafia reads through linking them to Sili. Beyond this I'm pretty sure that he didn't think Sili reacted to the test well, so the implication is that he found him scummy... neither you or Clov brought it up then, so I'm intrigued as to why you are now?

 

 

 

 

What are you even saying? Of course I have an idea of who to start with, but suspicions do not equate to reads. the names i gave, all 4, were suspects: i.e. people I wanted to check out.

 

I would argue the exact opposite.  If I say "I'm suspicious of Tina", that basically implies she's a scum candidate.  If I say "I'm not suspicious of Cory", there's the implication I think he's town.  But whatever.  I'm not going to spend more time getting into an argument on the differences on between reads/leans/opinions.

 

ok, I actually agree with you about the implications of stuff being implied, but why didn't you take it up with Yates earlier when he did something similar?

 

 

The problem I have is that if you're reading Sili strongly enough to use that as a basis for linking mafia suspects (even if you later move on) why aren't you voting? This lack of conviction from you is very disconcerting :/

As I sort of explained to Sili, I'm really just using relationships to inform my tone reads. I'm not even sure I've called Sili scum outside of my reaction fish.

 

 

[BFG]

i'm also admitting that i usually post more, but it's a bit stressful at my work these days, so forgive me for not posting that much. @Cass: i have a hard time feeling happy cheerful in the game when i'm not really happy cheerful IRL. Hope you understand.

 

That said, with one townie down, we need to find a wolf today.

Sorry to hear that :(

 

(also did you use the Gandalf meme on purpose

[BFG]

Ok, my above post @Sili seems to being done to death, I'll ask again later if I still have questions.

[Songstress]

 

 

 

 

Mixed feelings are understandable, but I don't see how you can't have some sort of idea on which way you want to go (ie reads), unless you're not trying to figure people's alignments out. Just offering up names when somebody asks doesn't get us anywhere and it makes YOU harder to read for the rest of us.

^^ *nod*

 

The thing that's really bothering me right now is that he's refusing to be accountable for his reads - to the point of denying that they ARE reads.

I knew I'd missed this :/ same question as Clov, why didn't you bring it up with Yates earlier?

Want to make sure I'm not missing something myself - can you clarify the question? Bring what up with Yates when, in particular?

Yates quote is below. Basically he states that he hasn't called Sili mafia outside of the 'reaction test' but this is when he seems to be informing his mafia reads through linking them to Sili. Beyond this I'm pretty sure that he didn't think Sili reacted to the test well, so the implication is that he found him scummy... neither you or Clov brought it up then, so I'm intrigued as to why you are now?

 

 

 

 

What are you even saying? Of course I have an idea of who to start with, but suspicions do not equate to reads. the names i gave, all 4, were suspects: i.e. people I wanted to check out.

I would argue the exact opposite. If I say "I'm suspicious of Tina", that basically implies she's a scum candidate. If I say "I'm not suspicious of Cory", there's the implication I think he's town. But whatever. I'm not going to spend more time getting into an argument on the differences on between reads/leans/opinions.

ok, I actually agree with you about the implications of stuff being implied, but why didn't you take it up with Yates earlier when he did something similar?

 

 

The problem I have is that if you're reading Sili strongly enough to use that as a basis for linking mafia suspects (even if you later move on) why aren't you voting? This lack of conviction from you is very disconcerting :/

As I sort of explained to Sili, I'm really just using relationships to inform my tone reads. I'm not even sure I've called Sili scum outside of my reaction fish.

Thanks, I was misunderstanding the question.

 

I'd really like to snip this huge quote to the relevant part but I'm on my phone at work and it would take far too much effort and time.

 

In short, different circumstances.

 

With Yates at that time I was town reading him overall, and probably more importantly I wasn't feeling particularly well and was doing a fair bit of skimming. It was also D1 and I have a tendency to hang back more early game and think about things and what they mean - especially when others are actively asking the questions.

 

With Sili, I had been suspicious of him most of the game, I was feeling much better, and was in solve-mode so I felt like prodding a bit more.

[BFG]

Ok thanks :)

 

I also asked again about your early reads.

 

You said you forgot Jmm and were still deciding on Yates, but then why didn't you say that Yates was null, or leave me off the list?

[Yates]

Yates - this should be preceeded with the fact that I almost always find Yates scummy...

 

 

 

 

However, there is some early stuff that pings - first his waiting on Tress/Thane, unless there's some out of game stuff I don't understand (sortalikea #ALLIANCELITE) which reads oddly given I'm pretty sure he's against the #ALLIANCE.

Um. What? I literally don't know what you are talking about.

 

Before I get caught up in the Cass/Yates Darthe/Kiv argument, can one (or better still both) confirm that although Darthe started it, town ran with it?

Confirmed.

 

Otherwise Yates statement about sitting in the mafia QT laughing about it is a lie (I couldn't find a link to the mafia QT to check for myself) and I wonder what the point of the argument was other than an exercise in futility.

Mafia QT link.

It wasn't a lie. It was just a misremember. If you look at /m21 in that QT, for example [ironically from Darthe], you see the general sentiment is what I was remembering. And /m99 is where he specifically mentions the tactic in thread. /m154, /m155, and /m156 are where we are chuckling about our schemes [in general] in a self deprecating manner.

 

What's funny is that game started in November and it feels like it was two years ago!

 

Anyway, the point was that paranoia can be [and really usually is] sewn by Town. Which is something I already clarified.

 

 

...what does being lynched as a possible GF have to do with anything.

There was no GF in that game and no reason to think there was a GF in the game. Yet, GF paranoia generated by a Townie led to a fairly obv Town [Me] being lynched for absolutely no reason other than POE based on bad logic. It's a cautionary tale.

 

Then there's the pocket discussion :/ I, again, don't understand the point that's being made. Can you share your definition of pocketing and white knighting? Why are you trying to coax Thane into town telling? If you don't know his alignment shouldn't you watch and see what he does naturally? As a side note from this; the 'tinfoil' debate that you weren't planning on bringing up - why not?

I'm not going to get into the pocket discussion with you. I was making a joke with Thane. I think that's pretty obvious. Not really sure of your point, anyway. Don't you think scum Yates is aware of terms used by scum? Here's a hint; I am. So unless you are calling that a "scum slip," this is a fruitless argument.

 

Don't worry about how I treat Thane. As far as I can tell I'm probably the best Thane reader on this site. I have reasons for wanting him to feel like this is a safe place. And those reasons are mine alone to have and to hold.

 

I really don't like Yates saying that he never called Sili mafia outside the reaction test :/ Yates has been reticent about reads this game and I don't know why.

You don't understand how I scum hunt. That's okay. But don't say I have been "reticent" with reads. That's plainly false. Cripes, you've even quoted me with one of your reads [on Thane].

 

But beyond this, assuming that from reaction test he means the Cass/Sili link which if I recall he thought Cass's reaction was ok and less happy with Sili's. But if he thought Sili was town then what was the whole linking me and Sili thing about?

You're right. That would have been confusing if I had thought Sili was Town. But I thought Sili was null. Because it was in the first couple of pages of the game and I didn't have a read on ANYONE. *shrug*

 

I think it's pretty ridiculous for you to insinuate that I had a Town read on someone just because I said I didn't have a scum read on that person. There's a reason for null piles and sliding scale reads. This isn't new information. And I think this addresses your next several paragraphs as well.

 

The fact that as of halfway through Day 1 I was nullish I think on his list and that the only thing he seems to be accounting for is a 'possible' link with Sili, who he's 'not even calling mafia', at this stage is really troubling, I'd already generated more stuff, been more involved/present in this game than I've managed in quite a long time, and in recent games he's been able to read me, or tried to with far less - even when he's been wrong, he's had an opinion so this lack of opinion is worrying.

Were any of these in 8 person games where a mislynch on D1 could lead to MYLO on Day 2? This was before we started talking about no lynch, fwiw. And I still think that was probably the right call. JMM probably would have been our lynch based on where everyone was at EOD if we did a last minute CW.

 

READS DISCUSSION SNIPPED

Again, you not knowing how I scum hunt isn't a new thing. I'm not going to waste my time explaining my green reads because they are green. If one of them is ever in danger of being lynched? I might go to bat.

 

I agree that Thane lacking volume isn't null but look at the context. I had just written a post to Thane asking him to explain why he wasn't around. He could have fallen in to a 50 BBL fermenting tank during a beer tour at a monastery for all I knew. That would be a good [the best?] excuse for low content. This is actually a pretty good argument for why you should be reading me Town, tbh. Scum Yates could have probably rolled with a Thane wagon without raising a lick of suspicion. Also, ftr, lack of activity isn't the be all and end all scum tell for Thane. I don't think anybody has one of those. He has certainly "gone missing" as Town before.

 

In response to Sili says he hasn't built a case on anyone - again this is not the Town Yates I know :/

LOL - show me. You've seen me build a case as SCUM on Day 1 before. I'm sure of that...

 

I also don't like that he got the numbers wrong about there being a vig in an 8 person game losing the game N1 if they hit town and lynch town Day 1.

Don't be pedantic. Mislynch, vig kill, scum kill - Town wakes up D2 to a 3-2 game with likely at least 1 dead PR. All scum need in that scenario is ONE Townie to vote for a mislynch, they pile on and win. IE. Game over.

 

I'll put it to you this way; I'm as sure of there not being a vig in this game as I am that there's more than 1 scum.

 

Over all I'm not liking Yates play so far, but I honestly don't know how much of what I don't like falls under my apparantly unconditional Yates paranoia and Clov, who reads him better is town reading him seemingly fairly comfortably, so I'm a bit stuck here as I'm not sure why - he says Yates is willing to work with Clov, but didn't he brush off Sili earlier for the same question (I need to ISO)?

 

There actually seems to almost be 'too much' for this to be mafia Yates

You are certainly stuck. I mean, you can't get me mislynched. But if you try to NK me will this come back on you? Exciting stuff!

[Yates]

1) I got distracted by a shiny object.

 

2) Sili kept giving me other things to question him on, so I kept asking him more questions on those instead of doubling back.

 

3) Big shiny object.

Fair enough.

[Yates]

@BFG - just let me know which of those questions I left unanswered. I feel like my post above addresses most if not all of those points.

[Yates]

This to you? Why say that you didn't want to talk about the 'tinfoil' thing that Clov brought up

What? Quote or something?

[BFG]

Cass are these from a reread or through ISO?

 

 

 

Ok *gets serious* Have sat down and re-read to here (Thane's post #80).

 

In a nutshell, my gut reads this far are that Sili, followed by possibly Clov and Yates, are coming across somewhat wilfish.

 

Everyone else has posted and seems null so far, although I'm interested to see more from jmm and BFG - all I know of jmm is the beginning of the last DM game (Tress'), which isn't much, and I can't recall seeing BFG in any of the games I've read to date.

 

Explanations for gut reads are coming next, but I'm working on mobile so thought it was best to get the basics up before I get bogged down.

 

Wish me luck.

 

 

i'm always cautious and selective on what and how i write things in a mafia game. On that note... from everything i've been reading here, you do feel/look wolfiest for the moment Sili.

 

 

second place is for Clov...

 

Got the feeling you're both too defensive THIS early in the game

 

 

 

 

good luck!

 

Are you feeling confident about winning this one?

Thank-you! *hugs the law-breaker*

 

Confident about winning? Um, I feel fairly 'happy' with my gut reads (for the moment, *g*) ... but I can't honestly say that I'm 'confident' about them *rolls eyes at self*... Does that make sense?

 

What reads/leans do you have so far?

 

Basically the same as yours actually. For the moment, Sili and Clov feel worst. Don't get any other bad vibes here. Cautious about jmm, seeing i don't know his game. Will be interesting to see how things develop this game.

 

 

 

Oh, Yates, i know you appreciate games we're both in, and you're quite capable in reading me, but don't try to buddy too hard, might be suspicious

You need to check out the beer thread.  I had a super rare Belgian beer the other night and thought of you...  

 

My plan is to pocket you.  See how you respond.  Serious question; when is the last time I read you wrong?  I want to see that comfortable, free thinking, shoot from the hip Thane Town so I'm setting you up for it.  And if a "Be Nice" game isn't the proper format to get you to that place, I don't know what is.

 

You're indeed quite often right about reading me. And, you don't need to set me up as Thane Town, i'm already Town in this game. And i like to hunt wolves (seriously, i need fur)

 

 

Initially I took this as Town/null, and nobody else experienced has contradicted the answer so it's probably correct, but, just to dot i's and cross t's can the mod/other experienced players please confirm this is right, please?

Depending on powers and balance and stuff like that, scum are usually 25% of the game. So yes, we are likely dealing with two scum.

 

yup, i think so too. 25% scum = 2 wolves. Which we can get to fast if we eliminate the most obvious townies first. Good thing is that most players only need to look into 7 people. Besides me, i think Tress and Cass are most likely town, so i'm down to checking 4 players (with the other two in the back of my mind, depending on how the game develops)

 

 

 

Thane, this might be nothing more than a Towny coincidence, and it's really the only thing I've seen of you so far that might actually be suspicious (especially in the re-reads where I'm trying to consider things from the perspective that Sili is Town), but, the red. The way when I ask what reads/leans you have you give me nothing back other than things I've already said myself. There's nothing new, nothing different.

 

Did you really have no other reads/leans/ideas at this point, or was there another reason you weren't sharing? 

 

FWIW, I think there may be a couple of plausible reasons why this next point doesn't necessarily mean you're scummy, but this paranoia brings me back to the fact that I can't help but feel you're playing differently this game. Can you explain why you're coming across more guarded this time around (other than the possibility that you're Scum)??

 

 

 

Not sure why this seems to be quoted out of sequence, bit look at the time stamps

 

Thane's reads were on thread prior to yours (you mentioned being suspicious of Sili but not Clov)

[BFG]

 

This to you? Why say that you didn't want to talk about the 'tinfoil' thing that Clov brought up

What? Quote or something?

 

Done already, keep reading :)

 

I was hoping I'd get to catch up before needing to grab quotes, should have known better

[Songstress]

Ok thanks :)

 

I also asked again about your early reads.

 

You said you forgot Jmm and were still deciding on Yates, but then why didn't you say that Yates was null, or leave me off the list?

You I was specifically looking for because I have a paranoia about you . I was still thinking about Yates, still interacting with him, and not ready to form a snap gut read yet.

[Yates]

Done already, keep reading :)

I think I've lost my place. Let me know after you've read my response post. I'd like to chat with you IRT.

[Yates]

IRT means "in real time" - not "incident response team." That would be bad.

[BFG]

Responding to your response now, but we're about to go for dinner... perils of hotel living :( I'll be back in a couple of hours

[Sili Quirrels]

i have no idea, you'd have to ask her yourself. 

kay.

 

being comfortable in game isn't really a scumtell for anybody. It can be faked. 

why would someone fake a scum tell? or, do you mean people can fake villager skepticism and thought process?

 

-because i would disagree.

 

i'm only pointing out things that look odd to me, and that was simply not true. 

 

It's quiet at work, so i actually have some time to dedicate to the game.

 

despite the first line it feels like you're not following through on your vote.

 

while i understand keeping thoughts close to your chest, it doesn't jive very well with how you play in my opinon. i'm left with the impression you let your skepticism fall through after we agreed on clov. e.g. if my reads are wrong shouldn't you want to figure out what i'm angling here?

 

instead you kind of say i'm wrong and leave it at that.

Alright, Sili, I included some contextual stuff leading up to the conversation as well. Let me know if I'm missing anything...

 

[it's a little ironic, ya. mistakes happen when you tunnel someone.]

 

this seems like an eod recap. but i would also include for my own benefit the posts i stipulate i'm looking for reasons to town read jmm and eventually grow tired of that due process.

[Sili Quirrels]

 

With Sili, I had been suspicious of him most of the game, I was feeling much better, and was in solve-mode so I felt like prodding a bit more.

 

i hope you're not town for your sake o.O

[Sili Quirrels]

also, tress, you started this with saying 'i naturally seem scummy for you'. well is there any difference between then and now?

 

if so what makes you think i've been especially scummy.

[Songstress]

 

 

 

With Sili, I had been suspicious of him most of the game, I was feeling much better, and was in solve-mode so I felt like prodding a bit more.

 

i hope you're not town for your sake o.O

Prepare to be disappointed.