[Standard] 11/10 Top Tier Vanilla+ Game Thread

[Andrej]

Stelio

Wombat

Salamipot

Yates

Nyn

Thane

 

Cass

Verb

Leelou

Darthe

 

Rags/Sili might approach green areas soon. Sili I'm still a bit hesitant on because I really dislike how he shoots himself in the foot (presuming he's a villager) with how he posts but I can also see him exhibiting such behavior as a wolf because he could think generally he'd get away with it.

 

Hallia and Tress are mostly null because I haven't looked at them very heavily yet and I don't think both have posted much that I can remember off the top of my head. I would probably float Arsis/Pral into this group as well as people I need to reread later.

 

Dice is one of my bottom reads at the moment because I think his volume is strikingly low and normally by now I think I would be able to reasonably tell if he's a villager or not. The fact that I can't bothers me.

[Andrej]

 

 

 

I'd entertain a Kivam CFD after rereading from where I left off last night.

 

I think both him and DPR are blowing a lot of hot air with their mafia theory discussions and I'm not overly impressed with Kivam's recap posts, especially with how he is maintaining a scum read on me despite having his points misconstrued and then neglecting to respond to me when I corrected them. Reeks of misrepping and I agree with Despot that I was uncomfortable with his lengthy post to Cass about meta and what not. I think people are giving them too much credit for making wordy 'pro-town' speeches but in reality it's nothing more than fluff and filler.

 

Also - I STILL think Kivam's vote on Sili was just plain bad, especially now that I'm beginning to come around on my read on Sili. That sort of linear logic is too simplistic for someone touted as highly as he is - and to reiterate my point earlier I thought it was scummy for him to immediately spin it on Verb for pointing out a fact as instant defense of Sili when nothing Sili said explicitly implied he was capable of making NKs.

 

OMGUS?

 

Perhaps partially, considering my alignment, but it also is more so with his general style. The recaps are more just massive walls of texts without a ton of analysis besides +/- signs which really tell me nothing. I also really, really dislike how he misconstrued my early posts and hasn't responded to my correction.

 

 

Bold 1: You're not reading carefully, then.

 

Bold 2: We'll see how it holds up when I get there in the recap.

I think it really boils down to you not reading carefully enough. For one you obviously misunderstood the intent of my post that started your scum read on me, and then several times later you mention follow up posts from me on the topic which align with my original point.

[Andrej]

You guys have got me for roughly another 30 minutes before I need to take off for my afternoon shift. I highly doubt I'll be around for EOD as that's right around the time my shift ends.

[WWWwombat]

Salami - so what do you do when scum does townie stuff day 1 and you "lock clear" them? Because that's exactly what the gambit was about. You guys are all making the mistake of thinking scum need to act like scum to won, when the opposite is true.

 

People like to LOCK CLEAR on tone now because a monkey can get a 75% success rate doing it and they can just paint their failures as good "deep wolf" play by the clearee rather than the clearer playing like a doofus.

[Andrej]

Greetings Village Marshall General.

 

Your trusty Village Captain is reporting for duty.

 

Shall we slay some wolves together this Day?

[WWWwombat]

Why is Cass lower? Dpr?

 

Why is Tress higher? Aj?

 

Ok, I'd like some explanation here. How am I, of all people, at the top of the green list? For those of you who don't know me, I take great pride in not being able to be read by anyone. And I haven't exactly posted a lot.

 

 

Rags, would you believe me if I said I'm getting good juju from you?  And I can usually read you by midgame btw.

Tress looks like town Tress so far but she needs to post more if she doesn't want to start slipping down the list.  Wanna see some more of that incisive Tress-logic.

AJ's early stuff felt like stuff town AJ would say.  He makes a lot of points that make sense but I don't agree with either because I see things a different way or because I think they are too facile.

Cass is null because she had like 1 substantive post at that point.  It was a decent post but overly wordy and self-conscious.  Need to see more of her to get any sort of read.

[hazelkrs1]

Not reviewing my earlier POE btw, so eh there could be some inconsistencies or something, but I'd rather line out what my reads are RIGHT NOW, instead of letting them be colored by stuff I saw much earlier in the game

 

Gray Nulls (pretty sure everyone has posted by this point, so this category would more appropriately be named "muddled", but eh I wanted to keep it in the same format:

 

Hallia

Rags

VerBarm

 

Actually this category DID end up being pretty much nulls for me, altho I had some in this as "muddled" reads that I ended up grouping elsewhere after looking my POE over again. Hallia started to catchup, didn't get anything from her short posts and abbreviated catchup there, and Rags himself said he was focusing on another game first. Correction - I ended up moving VerBarm to this group after all (a muddled read), realized I didn't really have enough to justify a town read on them anymore, and I'm concerned about what looks to me like backtracking from Barm recently

 

LOCK CLEAR BLUES (wanna say I'd never lynch from this group, worried someone will read too much into that statement or w/e, but yeah these are my strongest town reads and it would take like a slap in the face from one of them personally as well as a giant sign pointing to their being scum here for me to vote them anytime soon):

 

Cass

Nyn

Stelio

Thane

Wombat

Yates

 

Didn't bother putting all these in order btw, just piled them into buckets, but Cass IS prob closest to my strongest town read tbh. Just don't think as newbscum she could fake those SoC posts that well. Nyn looked towny to me earlier, haven't seen anything to make me change that read. She HAS kinda been on the sidelines more, so if she remains there for a long time I could see myself getting worried, but eh that's getting ahead of myself. Stelio might be a bit high on my POE, but eh gut's telling me town. Thane looks very towny to me after a bumpy beginning, but would also like to see more gameplay-oriented posts from him, he has had more fluff or meta related posts lately. Thought about bumping Wombat down a notch for a bit, but eh I think that's more paranoia from him bumping me down his list. I liked the way he followed up against DPR's post. Yates going to my blues is prob a little weird for some, and I'll admit some of the reasoning behind it is associative (those that are pushing him look wolfy to me). However, I realized that what he said to me earlier actually makes perfect sense- there's not much scum POV in him doing some of the stuff he's done this game as he would have KNOWN how much attention it would have brought him. Yates is sneaky sneaky and will execute gambits and big plays no matter his alignment, but I can't see scum!Yates WANTING to bring THIS much attention to him this early on in a game.

 

Greens (lighter town reads):

 

AJ

Krak

Leelou

Tress

 

AJ was a late addition to this list for his comments re: Kivam and DPR. Also somewhat associative here as well. I think Kivam is displaying a somewhat poor progression on his scum read of AJ. Krak's suspicions on Nyn looked townie to me earlier, albeit wrong imo, but I'm also kind of putting him here mainly cause of that huge post with the links and stuff, def displays a good bit of WIM. I'll be honest- I haven't read it yet (I'll make sure to at some point), but recently Krak has cared a LOT more about contributing earlier in town games of his, so displaying that much WIM is a good way to at least get on my green list. Leelou looked townie to me earlier for her comments about the intro being null, and I also thought the push on her was pretty meh, but I WILL say I don't like her recently defending Kivam and DPR. Tress simply looked townie to me for the way she agreed with my reads tbh. Even I see that's kind of a crap reason to town read her, but eh just from the little I've seen of her so far I'm thinking town. I think the thing she mentioned about me earlier looked like genuine town!Tress worried I could be scum since she agrees with me more when I'm scum, since if she was scum she prob could have raised that point in a more opportunistic manner.

 

Oranges (lighter scum reads):

 

Sili

Dice

 

I almost wanted to move Sili higher than this tbh, but figured I wouldn't get too ahead of myself considering associative reads. But yeah, the way DPR misrepped Sili and then later COMPLETELY forgot the context in which he initially fos'd him, coupled with Sili's big time towny post saying DPR was focusing more on the seer cover than pretty much anyone else, has him trending up. He's had some posts that look ridic scummy in a vacuum, but again I think that's kind of his forte as town. Dice I KINDA wanna move off this group, cause I'm thinking he COULD have genuinely thought Yates was the Seer that cleared Dice as town, but eh Dice's scum game has grown recently so I can still see scum!Dice jumping on that sort of thing.

Reds (pretty much LOCK SCUM for me):

 

Pray

Kivam

Darthe

DPR

 

Pray is kind of an honorable mention for me here because I remember having a pretty solid scum read on Arsis before he subbed out, and Pray has yet to really post anything of substance to assuage my fears or anything. Kivam is on this list even tho I JUST said I prob wouldn't CFD him today, but eh there honestly is too much lately that looks off. His hedging sort of soft defense of DPR. The way he spends big blocks of text ranting about stuff that's more meta, not really relevant to this game in particular. His misrepping of the whole me/Yates seer cover debacle. Kinda poor progression on reads. Just overall bad juju lately, as Rags would say. Darthe has been a top scumread of mine most the game, and that hasn't changed yet. I still think him trying to dismiss my read on him was wolfy as heck, and I think his thing on Cass being "over-coached" was ludicrous. I could also easily see him being scummates with DPR, if I'm not mistaken he had a post a while back listing DPR as one of the power townies or something, and recently acknowledged that Kivam could be scum but didn't mention DPR even tho the person he quoted did.

 

Then we have DPR. Whoa boy does he look scummy to me. He's misrepping people hardcore imo. Talking out of both sides of his mouth by trying to say people are focusing too much on the seer cover thing... while focusing on the seer cover thing. Shows pretty poor handle on the thread by forgetting the things he himself was trying to say (which kinda ties into the misrep thing but I still thought it was worth mentioning). He's being purposefully evasive and vague, isn't really responding to ANY of my posts directed at him in a meaningful manner (which is EXACTLY what he did before when I suspected him as scum and he was) - in fact he's pretty much ducking or avoiding any discussion or question which paints him in a negative light. And then recently, with me bringing up hardcore EVIDENCE to support something I've been saying to him, he instead responds and pretty much puts out a fluff post about not spamming or getting caught in flame wars, blah blah blah. A post that doesn't really say anything specific to this game, and also sort of gives him an "out" for not having to respond to me (so that he won't get caught in a "flame war" ). Pretty funny considering he tried burning Sili for ignoring evidence earlier.

[WWWwombat]

Greetings Village Marshall General.

 

Your trusty Village Captain is reporting for duty.

 

Shall we slay some wolves together this Day?

 

I think we should.  Do you have word from the Lord Protector?  Has he clarified our rules of engagement?

[Leelou]

 

Greetings Village Marshall General.

 

Your trusty Village Captain is reporting for duty.

 

Shall we slay some wolves together this Day?

 

I think we should.  Do you have word from the Lord Protector?  Has he clarified our rules of engagement?

 

 

Oh dear god. 

[TheRagnarok]

 

Why is Cass lower? Dpr?

 

Why is Tress higher? Aj?

 

Ok, I'd like some explanation here. How am I, of all people, at the top of the green list? For those of you who don't know me, I take great pride in not being able to be read by anyone. And I haven't exactly posted a lot.

 

 

Rags, would you believe me if I said I'm getting good juju from you?  And I can usually read you by midgame btw.

Tress looks like town Tress so far but she needs to post more if she doesn't want to start slipping down the list.  Wanna see some more of that incisive Tress-logic.

AJ's early stuff felt like stuff town AJ would say.  He makes a lot of points that make sense but I don't agree with either because I see things a different way or because I think they are too facile.

Cass is null because she had like 1 substantive post at that point.  It was a decent post but overly wordy and self-conscious.  Need to see more of her to get any sort of read.

 

Thank you.

 

And I will never discount the juju.

[Tommyrod]

Thread feels wolfy

 

 

Or villagery?

 

[WWWwombat]

p. 51, Des needs to shut up about DPR.

[hazelkrs1]

How about I ignore you and read them for myself? 

 

Honestly thought this post was pretty rude and disrespectful honestly, and unnecessarily so.

 

What I said before is valid imo- just reading them for tone or w/e might not give you the best picture. I laid out very specific stuff (especially against DPR) that imo is extremely relevant, yet you just kind of snap at me instead.

 

Outside the game- honestly kind of hurt Leelou.

 

 

 

Salami - so what do you do when scum does townie stuff day 1 and you "lock clear" them? Because that's exactly what the gambit was about. You guys are all making the mistake of thinking scum need to act like scum to won, when the opposite is true.

 

People like to LOCK CLEAR on tone now because a monkey can get a 75% success rate doing it and they can just paint their failures as good "deep wolf" play by the clearee rather than the clearer playing like a doofus.

 

 

I think LOCK CLEAR to you seems to indicate you'll never readjust the read again, when I am ALWAYS willing to readjust my reads. LOCK CLEAR to me just means "strong townread"

[WWWwombat]

 

 

Greetings Village Marshall General.

 

Your trusty Village Captain is reporting for duty.

 

Shall we slay some wolves together this Day?

 

I think we should.  Do you have word from the Lord Protector?  Has he clarified our rules of engagement?

 

 

Oh dear god. 

 

 

Your Royal Highness!  To what do we owe the pleasure?

[hazelkrs1]

p. 51, Des needs to shut up about DPR.

 

Yeahhhhhhh def feel my WIM starting to sink. If I end up being right about DPR I'm genuinely going to be pretty upset with a number of you for acting this way to me.

 

It's one thing to address stuff I've brought up against him and say why I might be wrong, it's another to pretty much tell me to shut the hell up about my top scumread.

[Leelou]

Des, I'm sorry, but I do have way more experience playing with both of them. I want to use my own judgement on them and I'll reference your posts, but don't expect me to agree fully with them. 

[DPR]

DPR is giving me some bad juju recently.  Everything looks good on the surface, but it feels wrong. 

 

To me this reads "My friend doesn't like you and neither do I". By all means, post opinions and quotes and cases but knee-jerking to an obvious "Oldster vs. New Gen" cage match setup isn't going to help the town. 

 

 

Questions:

 

@DPR - In your post here I don't see you coming down on a side of the authority issue wrt Despo.  Do you have an opinion on Despo taking the authoritative high ground and what is your follow-up opinion on Verb's use of the same play while interacting with Thane in the first few pages?

 

Krak, I don't undersstand what you are asking here. If you asking if I consider Des to be an authority on mafia, the answer is no (I've already noted what I think of his game).

 

Nor do I believe or support any "high-ground" plays. On D1, every player is equal. Wolves are gonna lie. We all know this. Until the dying starts, there is no high or low ground, there is only collecting posts to use as evidence of connections. 

 

I don't have a strong opinion on Verb or Thane yet.

 

 

 

Des: no better way to clear a teammate than by explaining his behavior in a post that also scumreads, because it has the full explanatory effect whole allowing the "I wasn't defending" play you are currently making. I have you mostly town, so I'm not putting to much weight on it, but it's a fact worth noting in case later play changes that read or you or Yates flip scum

Wow. Wifom up the wazoo. Is everyone taking crazy pills right now?

 

Kivam - this post is complete nonsense. You are creating a false connection here. I'm pointing out that I'm chastising you so that if you flip scum I can be cleared as Town. How do you like that "logic?"

 

Insane.

 

 

There is a 0% chance that Yates does not understand what Kivam is getting at. 

 

 

 

 

Des: no better way to clear a teammate than by explaining his behavior in a post that also scumreads, because it has the full explanatory effect whole allowing the "I wasn't defending" play you are currently making. I have you mostly town, so I'm not putting to much weight on it, but it's a fact worth noting in case later play changes that read or you or Yates flip scum

Wow. Wifom up the wazoo. Is everyone taking crazy pills right now?

 

Kivam - this post is complete nonsense. You are creating a false connection here. I'm pointing out that I'm chastising you so that if you flip scum I can be cleared as Town. How do you like that "logic?"

 

Insane.

 

 

Of course.  Scum who aren't setting up WIFOMs from Day 1 are asleep at the switch and asking to take their teammates down with them if they get caught.  You don't do that as scum?  I sure as hell do, which means I always keep my eyes open for it.  I also find it interesting that you are trying to imply that there is no possible connection between you and DesLami.

 

 

Yates is a very skilled player. He's fun to watch, adept at big plays and absolutely not afraid to kick off D1 with strong moves. 

 

 

 

I could see DPR and Kivam being scum both. Kivam running interference for DpR here.

 

You're not the only one.

 

 

I could see DPR and Kivam being scum both. Kivam running interference for DpR here.

Oh God I hope not.  I'm trying to cut them both some slack because I got burned scum reading Rags in his first game back.  But damn.  The stuff they are honing in on is so frivolous and nonsensical I just can't understand the logic...

 

 

Awwww guys, we appreciate you and all but it's really not necessary.

 

 

 

I could see DPR and Kivam being scum both. Kivam running interference for DpR here.

 

I agree. And he's kind of trying - and very awkwardly I must say - to defend DPR without looking like he's defending DPR

 

Anyways, Imma go ahead and get out a fresh POE, then I need to start doing some errands cause ho lee krap I have been on here all friggin day

 

 

 

 

I've asked some questions and made some statements about players and moves I thought they might be making.

 

I've been very specific about what I consider to be fact and what I consider to be speculation.

 

I expect and encourage everybody else to do the same. 

 

On D1, it's all conjecture, and the more GRC players add, the more we'll find out who's radar is on, etc.

 

I find Yates 3A speech to be total bullshit. I find Yates Seer claim to be WIFOM, which in and of itself is not big deal. But, I find Des explaining Yates claim to be a possible connection between the two. I've made this clear. I find Des backtracking on his initial enthusiasm over the effectiveness of Seer Cover to be a reaction to my calling it a possible connection. I find Sili picking up the Seer Cover Support Points conversation this morning to be suspicious and another possible connection.

 

I'm not going to get into a flame war with Des because Des is an emotional train wreck. Des is obsessed with me and it's unfortunate, but there it is. 

 

All of this is documented and clear. No muss, no fuss.

 

For this afternoon, I see a concentrated effort to paint that "Oldster vs. New Gen" argument. To me, this is a pure scum technique - what a waste of everybody's time to fold up a buch of meta-paper-airplanes and send them all across the room.

 

If I was scum and somebody was pinging in on me on D1 with 30 hours to go until lynch, I would try to derail the thread with:

 

1. Emotional over posting intended to bury posts and poison players reps.

2. Steer any conversation away from points that could be damaging.

3. Poop on the thread so that people avoid it and don't talk. 

 

I'm watching at all of these things taking place right now. 

[Leelou]

 

 

 

Greetings Village Marshall General.

 

Your trusty Village Captain is reporting for duty.

 

Shall we slay some wolves together this Day?

 

I think we should.  Do you have word from the Lord Protector?  Has he clarified our rules of engagement?

 

 

Oh dear god. 

 

 

Your Royal Highness!  To what do we owe the pleasure?

 

 

Coffee, is needed, my minion! 

[hazelkrs1]

Despite other people's best efforts to make me feel like crap and deflate my WIM, Imma be a trooper anyways and highlight what I feel is maybe the most significant thing I found in regards to DPR:

 

 

 

And here we go with more Yates defending.

 

Dude - you attack Nyn based on an ambiguous comment she made but but lacks any evidence while simultaneously trying to defend a player and play that we have in the books as evidence.

 

That's just not cricket, old boy.

 

 

(this was in response to a post of Sili's talking about the seer cover thing)

 

Mainly quoted this because of the thing on Sili attacking Nyn, even tho he was ACTUALLY attacking Barm.

 

DPR makes a big fuss about "evidence" here, but imo he never properly explains himself. Sili repeatedly asks what evidence he is referring to, and eventually DPR says the evidence is Yates' claim itself and people's explanations of the "seer cover" thing.

 

Here's the thing tho.

 

DPR FIRST fos's Sili for bringing the seer cover thing up again, yet HERE he is apparently saying that Sili isn't focusing enough on hard evidence, which ends up being all the seer cover stuff?

 

 

Those are completely contradictory points against Sili. That he's focusing on the seer cover stuff too much and defending Yates, and then later that he isn't talking about that stuff enough?

 

???

 

 

Please post an example of a player that has been confused over "Seer Cover". 

 

To me, all I see is unnecessary re-explanations of the term made in an effort to prove what a swell guy Yates is.

 

 

 

 

I forgot to ask what evidence I've been disregarding. You said that, and now I want to know what you mean?

 

 

The evidence is Yates claim. You have defined it several times, after it has been defined by others several times.

 

My point being that you ignored the previous payer's posts defining "Seer Cover" when you could have just let it stand and watched to see what came of it.

 

Instead, you used you explanation to support Yates and then talk about town-reading other posts.

 

I look at that as ignoring evidence (the obvious) to bring attention to speculation.

 

 

Bold: Dice, Thane, and Cass all at various points expressed confusion over the "seer cover" concept

 

Italics: Funny thing is if anything, YOU'RE making a bigger deal out of the "seer cover" issue than ANYONE ELSE IN THE GAME

 

Underlined: DPR clearly forgets the context he originally raised this point in.

 

Not going to requote the post again, but he first was talking about Sili "attacking" Nyn (when he was actually attacking Barm), and said Sili was ignoring the evidence at hand, and instead focusing on some "non" evidence in Nyn's obscure comment (that was actually Barm's)

 

So Sili in that post WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SEER COVER AT ALL, yet DPR apparently thought he should have been focusing on the evidence at hand, that evidence being Yates' seer claim and subsequent definitions of "seer cover", but that really "using the evidence at hand" here means not commenting on all the seer cover stuff since other people have already.

 

All this when the original post in question, again, wasn't talking about seer cover.

 

So again, this is DPR entirely forgetting the context he originally brought up "evidence" in.

 

To me, this paints DPR in just SUCH an extremely negative light. Like, as in he's obvscum. Because town!DPR might be rusty, but I seriously don't think he would entirely misremember the entire context in which he was fos'ing someone, and then keep pushing something even tho what he's pushing makes zero sense.

 

However, I CAN see scum!DPR pushing this stuff because he's fake scumhunting.

 

[hazelkrs1]

[v]##DPR[/v]

[hazelkrs1]

Des, I'm sorry, but I do have way more experience playing with both of them. I want to use my own judgement on them and I'll reference your posts, but don't expect me to agree fully with them. 

 

It's fine to say this, but to say you're going to ignore me, when I was genuinely trying to be helpful?

 

Kinda hurt, not gonna lie.

[Leelou]

I'm not going to start discussing personal feelings in a mafia game. We can talk about it later. 

[WWWwombat]

 

Also for the record, for those just thinking I'm stuck in a tunnel on DPR:

 

Last game I played with him he was scum and I was town and I helped "catch" him on Day Freaking One. That game doubles as prob the most frustrating mafia game of my entire mafia career.

 

FYI, this reads as a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy of the type that makes me really, really want to play poker with guys who won a big pot by river-ing out an inside straight.  (And in New Orleans, I actually hit a straight flush on the river, which will never happen again).  Just because you did something that had a good result doesn't mean it was the right thing to do.  Mafia's a lot like poker that way; good plays can have bad results and bad plays good results on individual occasions, but over the long term bad play will lead to bad results and good play to good results.

 

 

I was in the game too and DPR was pretty obvious.  Also, Des falling prey to a logical fallacy that supports his conclusion is par for the course.

[TheRagnarok]

 

DPR is giving me some bad juju recently.  Everything looks good on the surface, but it feels wrong. 

 

To me this reads "My friend doesn't like you and neither do I". By all means, post opinions and quotes and cases but knee-jerking to an obvious "Oldster vs. New Gen" cage match setup isn't going to help the town.

 

That's not really the case at all.  I met a few players here in a Champions game and got invited over.  I've been playing for quite a while. 

 

But it's cute how you try to assume that's the reason people are suspecting you.  Looks like an attempt to deflect.

[WWWwombat]

 

 

Here, have some wine.

 

 

Hey, what's up?  You gonna post at all or just let Des drag you down into the oranges?

 

 

^legit wolfy post

 

 

*snort*  That's sure not gonna get you out of the yellows.