[Standard] 11/10 Top Tier Vanilla+ Game Thread

[Thane Vakarian]

if i would rest on my meta laurels, i could just as well post every now and then, don't even try to help town and just lurl around. But i don't. I'm here, ITT, realtime, so we can talk about stuff. 

 

I do think that a lot of players post, sit back and will try to make their inner connections from D2 on, see if they thought they had it right D1 (like i do)

[DPR]

DPR, I didn't join this game to comfort you.

 

Unless you can fit yourself into a bottle, I don't see your point.

[hazelkrs1]

Dear Lord there are some experienced players here that are just being incredibly dense about this subject, in regards to the Yates/Seer cover issue. Not sure if they're being willfully dense, or just rusty, or what, but holy jesus are my jimmies reaching maximum rustlage level.

 

PLEASE OBSERVE CAREFULLY

 

Here's where I give an early POE (irrelevant reads to this discussion are spoilered):

 

 

Gonna go ahead and do an early POE cause WHY NOT, AMIRITE?

 

Nulls (either haven't posted or haven't posted enough for me to get a firm read on):

 

Cass

DPR

Rags

Tress

Hallia

 

Blues (I know, a bit early for this, but hey, I also have the right to change my mind):

 

Nyn

AJ

Leelou

Wombat

Thane

 

I've had some mindmelds with Nyn early on, and I feel that she is genuinely trying to develop reads on players- if she was scum she could have either used those WKing Thane about his mislynch past to try and push him as a suspect, or else hedge more on him later instead of townreading him. AJ has looked good in general so far, and he's a bit associative as well considering Sili's scummy handling of him. Leelou is active and pointing out stuff I think a town!Leelou would be likely to, and isn't lurking when she gets attention or anything, quite the opposite. Wombat looks good for some stuff early on, looks good for the manner in which he is questioning Yates, the only thing I don't like is his vote on Nyn but I can see where he's coming from there (that Nyn could be scum wasting time on arguing on pointless manners) I just don't think he's correct. Thane looked questionable at first, but now seems to be replying in a Thane-y sort of way, and I feel that the way Arsis is WKing him is more likely a w/v relationship (that scum!Arsis is defending town!Thane)

 

Greens (still feel town on, but would be much more open to changing my mind on these):

 

Krak

Kivam

Stelio

Verb/Barm

 

I first off disagree with my hydra head that a vote on Krak at this point is wise- he isn't that reactive, or active really, most the time so meh. I also liked Krak pointing out that post of Nyn's and saying it was townie. Light townie points for that since I don't see the scum motivation in doing that if Nyn is town like I think she is. Kivam is a bit associative, I think some people are trying to dismiss or discredit him as an old fossil. Kivam was always on the leading edge of mafia back when he played more often, and none of the newer trends like tonereading or anything will be difficult for him to get comfortable with imo. Stelio looks good for a newer player in this environment, and already looks willing to dip his toes in the water. Barm's posting looks better than Verb's imo, but Verb has read as town for my gut as well.

 

 

Oranges (slight scum reads, but more wary and willing to reconsider):

 

Dice

Yates

 

Dice is here mainly cause of his OP, and then eh it's weak but the simple smiley emotes from him in response to Yates' stuff about the three amigos and whatnot seemed kinda meh for him. Would expect him to espouse more on that sort of thing. Yates looks slightly wolfy for acting self-conscious about the three amigos thing, and also defensive when others react in what seems to me like a natural way to react to what he's saying

 

Reds (strongest scum reads, would be very much willing to lynch any of this group):

 

Darthe

Sili

Arsis

 

Darthe looks like he's trying to force a casual tone in his posts, and also got a bit too wordy when talking to Sili, I agree with Barm that that could have been w/w "coaching" ITT (as a way of kind of distancing that he's coaching him in the QT). I also didn't like all the hedging talk on hydra heads- Darthe has plenty of experience with hydras so that talk seemed mega wolfy coming from him. Sili looks turrible so far. Admitting to not having any context to a vote so obviously doesn't make it less scummy. Also don't like him bringing up his own meta in self-defense. Arsis looks mega opportunistic with his push on Nyn, I don't like his WKing of Thane, and his justification for said WKing (Thane being "seriously pushed" on page 2) doesn't hold up either

 

 

So let me stress here that this is AFTER Yates claimed Seer (what was still a "Seer Cover" post imo, and null, but I'll get to that later). I have him as a LIGHT SCUM READ. As in, I was NOT townreading him for the seer cover thing. As you can see, that post didn't even really register at all on my read of Yates, instead I found all the early talk of the Amigos thing, and Yates attempt to dismiss the conversation asap, as self-conscious and wolfy. Dice was also light scum read for me because of his OP.

 

Des  thoughts on yates claim and my being cleared? you never bought that up in your reads post.

 

Then Dice asks me about my thoughts on him being "cleared". Note that his wording here doesn't imply that he thought Yates' post could be a seer cover post, but that he took it as A STANDARD SEER/COP CLAIM.

 

SUPGATE - Salami soft serves an invitation to make hay. Darthe and Womby bite, but at different ends and the ball starts rolling. HWSIDI moment? 

 

Darthe is so weary. Like, depressing weary. Why so serious?

 

D1 Yates decides to make a "Just Say No To Drugs" speech and claim Seer to clear Dice. That's like, really really town. Really.

 

Pushers gonna push.

 

Before I respond, DPR HIMSELF actually says Yates looks "really really town" for claiming Seer to clear Dice. Tbh I don't even know if DPR thought Yates was truly hard claiming Seer, but if he was, I don't see why he would word his read of him this way. If he believed the claim, I don't think he would think Yates LOOKED townie, I'd think he thought Yates was DEFINITE TOWNIE unless there was a counterclaim or something.

Regardless, DPR's first reaction to it was TOWNREADING YATES.

 

 

Des thoughts on yates claim and my being cleared? you never bought that up in your reads post.

So this isn't standard on DM at all, but this is a fairly common strategy on a lot of other sites, called seer cover. In theory it allows the seer to remain hidden while also revealing his inno viewings should he (or she) die.

And that's exactly what I took Yates claim as. Seer cover, nothing more, nothing less. If he actually dies and flips seer, then yes Dice, you'd be cleared. But I don't at all think Yates is the real seer, that decided to claim even tho no one else had yet provided any seer cover besides him.

So it seems to me you bringing this up now is a bit sketchy. You didn't talk about it immediately like you genuinely thought you were cleared, you only brought it up when I named you as a potential suspect. I believe you're trying to "derp clear" yourself.

 

 

I then respond to Dice, and explain that I wasn't taking Yates' claim at face value (which incidentally, is ALWAYS a good idea with Yates, as he later says), and that he was likely providing seer cover.

 

And again - imo "providing seer cover" is actually a complete null tell. Obviously it can be seen as a protown thing to do, but it's also incredibly easy to do as scum as well, to look "protown".

 

 

SUPGATE - Salami soft serves an invitation to make hay. Darthe and Womby bite, but at different ends and the ball starts rolling. HWSIDI moment?

Darthe is so weary. Like, depressing weary. Why so serious?

D1 Yates decides to make a "Just Say No To Drugs" speech and claim Seer to clear Dice. That's like, really really town. Really.

Pushers gonna push.

What does bolded mean DPR? I actually understand very little of that entire paragraph, not sure what you're referring to

And do you really think Yates is the seer? Or do you think him providing seer cover makes him likely to be town?

 

 

I then ask DPR if he really thought Yates was the Seer, or if he thought it was a protown "seer cover" post.

 

 

 

SUPGATE - Salami soft serves an invitation to make hay. Darthe and Womby bite, but at different ends and the ball starts rolling. HWSIDI moment?

Darthe is so weary. Like, depressing weary. Why so serious?

D1 Yates decides to make a "Just Say No To Drugs" speech and claim Seer to clear Dice. That's like, really really town. Really.

Pushers gonna push.

What does bolded mean DPR? I actually understand very little of that entire paragraph, not sure what you're referring to

And do you really think Yates is the seer? Or do you think him providing seer cover makes him likely to be town?

 

 

I think your "Seer Seer Cover" play is interesting.

 

I'm just wondering why you feel the need to tell us how Yates is playing.

 

He's a big boy and can speak for himself.

 

 

DPR doesn't answer my question, and also disparages me for speaking for Yates, even tho I was more explaining the seer cover strategy in general, and why I thought Yates WASN'T hard claiming Seer as the actual Seer.

 

 

 

 

 

SUPGATE - Salami soft serves an invitation to make hay. Darthe and Womby bite, but at different ends and the ball starts rolling. HWSIDI moment?

Darthe is so weary. Like, depressing weary. Why so serious?

D1 Yates decides to make a "Just Say No To Drugs" speech and claim Seer to clear Dice. That's like, really really town. Really.

Pushers gonna push.

What does bolded mean DPR? I actually understand very little of that entire paragraph, not sure what you're referring to

And do you really think Yates is the seer? Or do you think him providing seer cover makes him likely to be town?

I think your "Seer Seer Cover" play is interesting.

I'm just wondering why you feel the need to tell us how Yates is playing.

He's a big boy and can speak for himself.

What about the first part of my post- I still don't know what you were saying with bolded

 

I'll wait to comment. I'd like to see who does know what I'm saying.

And I wasn't trying to talk for him. Again, seer cover is fairly common in other places. Highly doubt Yates was claiming there as the real seer.

 

Regardless of what you were trying to do, you did talk for him. And you did this not by offering your opinion, but by brow-beating Dice, implying that he was not playing well. Claiming authority is a technique that can be used for either side, but doing it on D1 - in my experience - is usually the province of noobs or those with a desire to set up agendas. 

Again- do you think he was telling the truth? It kinda defeats the point of Seer cover to admit it's Seer cover, so I doubt Yates will say so. I'm interested in your opinion here Wes.

 

My opinion is that when putting together a blind puzzle with 100 pieces, don't lay out the first 7 pieces and guess what the picture will be. You'll trip yourself every time.

 

 

I'm in blue above.

 

 

I again ask DPR to clarify his position, and why he was townreading Yates for that claim. Again DPR evades my question.

 

 

Also, he says I was "brow-beating" Dice by saying he wasn't playing well, but FREAKING LOOK AT MY POST ABOVE WHERE I RESPOND TO DICE. Am I brow beating Dice there?

 

HELL TO THE FREAK NO.

 

This is why I started getting so frustrated with DPR, as I felt he was intentionally misrepresenting me. And when I asked him later where I had insulted Dice or shamed him or w/e, HE NEVER ACTUALLY SHOWED ME HOW I DID SO.

 

Furthermore, DPR later says I was defending Yates with the whole Seer Cover thing.

 

EVEN THO I WAS SCUMREADING YATES AT THE TIME, AFTER YATES HAD ALREADY CLAIMED SEER.

 

A couple of other people have recently even backed DPR up on this, and for the life of me I don't understand how or why. Kivam said I was "scumsplaining" Yates' actions, I think Wombat might have said something similar, and the fact is people these statements are 100% OUTRIGHT WRONG.

[Kivam]

 

Good lord do I love players like you.  'Cause when I put 2 vigs and 2.5 cops into a closed mafia setup, you kill each other off and balance the game for the scum ...

Or I shoot the SK, removing an anti-Town role... Anyway, I'm clearly being hyperbolic. Except about the part of how you don't counter claim.

 

 

No, I'm talking about games I mod, where I'm counting on reflex play like that to help balance the game.  Maybe I should rerun The Double Blind here ... seems like we have enough new players to make it work (nobody is allowed to read the old thread).

 

[DPR]

Density. It is dense.

 

Excuse me, I have to take this call.

[Leelou]

Who got Wombat's panties all in a bunch? 

[Nynaeve]

 

DPR, I didn't join this game to comfort you.

 

Unless you can fit yourself into a bottle, I don't see your point.

 

 

lmfao

[Cass]

*Replies to relevant posts from page 44*

 

 

Not liking Darthe 2.0 this morning. 

 

Is Cass being mentored by Manbat during this game? Her posts make it hard to tell if he is or was mentoring.

 

I hesitate a little to answer this, but I will in the interests of keeping with my 'honesty is the best policy' approach. Manbat is my mentor in this game, we chatted about general theory - bouncing back and forwards, both student and mentor-led - pre-game, he chucked me in a last minute Turbo on Sunday, and as of game start is only really answering technical questions, like I explained earlier ('What is EOS'? etc). At least this is how it is so far. I'm not really asking anything else and don't intend to. I agree with his philosophy that he wants me to play the game, and he will be happy to provide me with comments after I'm out or it is ended. 

 

 

She IS being mentored, first full game on DM for her

QFT. See above.

 

 

I think the people arguing against seer cover aren't looking at the circumstances of this game very carefully.  The main reason not to like seer cover is that it essentially gives the seer a shelf-life.  That being said, the setup of this game already puts the seer on a shelf life.  Town has two part-time vigs.  Mafia has two extra kills and a roleblocker.  Town does not have a doc but a jailkeeper (much less effective at protecting cops).  All of this means that not only is the seer more likely to die to nightkill, but once the seer hardclaims, he or she is unlikely to get another viewing off.

 

As for Yates hardclaiming to start the seer cover, that probably wasn't the best move on a site that isn't used to seer cover, but it's not something that makes him scum.  It's still a null-to-town move overall imo.

Ok, I'm not sure I agree, but I'm willing to leave this issue for now and just wait and see how this pans out?

 

 

@ Kivam

Thanks! I am having fun here now that I've jumped on in, and your whole thing pretty much made my night. All of it. The advice because it was nice of you to share, and your explanations because they give me a challenge to look into. I've taken your advice on board. Thanks for the sharing of your wisdom. It all makes perfect sense (the wisdom part anyway, I'm too tired/outpaced at the moment to have gone back and verified/analysed your explanations). Rest assured, I will be watching you   

 

 

 

@ Everyone

I'm not sure how much I've missed in these last few pages, but after I've posted this, I'm going to attempt a quick read through and then try to get to bed. I am currently operating on super little sleep since last week due to studying for exams/procrastination learning all about mafia. (Addictive personality, remember?). I can't count the hours because I am super crap at numbers (y'all better hope I don't get stuck counting votes) but it's currently 2:16am 2:21am and it will be the earliest I've been to bed in a week. And that's been immediately followed by sitting an exam, getting trashed celebrating end of exams and my best friend moving to Canada all in the one day, and then straight into 14hr shifts.I'm buggered. *cue the violins*

 

I'm all for the thrill of the chase but another thing I need to learn to do is go to bed. So I'm gonna read the posts, take notes and then go to bed. Fair warning - I'm spending tomorrow with my toddler and she needs all of my attention. (Partly why I've posted so much tonight). I may or may not be this active again tomorrow night. I will definitely be stuffed. I'll read along when I can, and if I know what's good for me, try and get a good night's sleep so I can post more after votes have been made. Thanks for the fun this far. Please don't mislynch me in my sleep  . 

Ninight

[hazelkrs1]

To add on to that- I actually don't like some of Kivam's recent posts. His most recent recap post misrepped a couple of situations imo, said that DPR will always look town (even tho DPR doesn't look town at all to me this game), and later said Thane was confirmed town because Thane's scum reads matched Kivam's. Maybe Kivam was being facetious with that last bit, but considering Kivam was scumreading Thane during most of his catchups, I CERTAINLY don't think he would townclear him just because he had similar suspects.

 

As for DPR, it sketches me out that anyone would be reading him as town, or strong town at this point. He has been evasive, has misrepped situations multiple times, and in general is displaying poor reading comprehension that leads to incredibly opportunistic and scummy posts. For instance he said I was "shaming" Kivam for the "defending/not defending argument is boring" comment I made, even tho that comment if ANYTHING was SUPPORTING Kivam, not shaming him. Also if DPR had been truly reading all my posts before that he would have seen me saying I didn't think people should be dismissing Kivam's opinion so quickly, which kind of goes directly against "shaming" him. Then there's something recent where DPR misrepresented something Sili said, where Sili was actually attacking Yates (which seemed like a dumb attack imo, but w/e), but DPR got on him for attacking NYN instead. When Sili corrected him, DPR said his point still stood, even tho IT DIDN'T. The more Sili responded, the more evasive DPR got, turning the conversation into something else entirely.

 

I might be wrong, and DPR might be town that is just off his game at the moment, but I certainly don't see how people would be townreading him here.

[DPR]

Who got Wombat's panties all in a bunch? 

 

He always gets like this when he overplays his hand. heh

 

*Replies to relevant posts from page 44*

 

 

Not liking Darthe 2.0 this morning. 

 

Is Cass being mentored by Manbat during this game? Her posts make it hard to tell if he is or was mentoring.

 

I hesitate a little to answer this, but I will in the interests of keeping with my 'honesty is the best policy' approach. Manbat is my mentor in this game, we chatted about general theory - bouncing back and forwards, both student and mentor-led - pre-game, he chucked me in a last minute Turbo on Sunday, and as of game start is only really answering technical questions, like I explained earlier ('What is EOS'? etc). At least this is how it is so far. I'm not really asking anything else and don't intend to. I agree with his philosophy that he wants me to play the game, and he will be happy to provide me with comments after I'm out or it is ended. 

 

 

She IS being mentored, first full game on DM for her

QFT. See above.

 

 

I think the people arguing against seer cover aren't looking at the circumstances of this game very carefully.  The main reason not to like seer cover is that it essentially gives the seer a shelf-life.  That being said, the setup of this game already puts the seer on a shelf life.  Town has two part-time vigs.  Mafia has two extra kills and a roleblocker.  Town does not have a doc but a jailkeeper (much less effective at protecting cops).  All of this means that not only is the seer more likely to die to nightkill, but once the seer hardclaims, he or she is unlikely to get another viewing off.

 

As for Yates hardclaiming to start the seer cover, that probably wasn't the best move on a site that isn't used to seer cover, but it's not something that makes him scum.  It's still a null-to-town move overall imo.

Ok, I'm not sure I agree, but I'm willing to leave this issue for now and just wait and see how this pans out?

 

 

@ Kivam

Thanks! I am having fun here now that I've jumped on in, and your whole thing pretty much made my night. All of it. The advice because it was nice of you to share, and your explanations because they give me a challenge to look into. I've taken your advice on board. Thanks for the sharing of your wisdom. It all makes perfect sense (the wisdom part anyway, I'm too tired/outpaced at the moment to have gone back and verified/analysed your explanations). Rest assured, I will be watching you   

 

 

 

@ Everyone

I'm not sure how much I've missed in these last few pages, but after I've posted this, I'm going to attempt a quick read through and then try to get to bed. I am currently operating on super little sleep since last week due to studying for exams/procrastination learning all about mafia. (Addictive personality, remember?). I can't count the hours because I am super crap at numbers (y'all better hope I don't get stuck counting votes) but it's currently 2:16am 2:21am and it will be the earliest I've been to bed in a week. And that's been immediately followed by sitting an exam, getting trashed celebrating end of exams and my best friend moving to Canada all in the one day, and then straight into 14hr shifts.I'm buggered. *cue the violins*

 

I'm all for the thrill of the chase but another thing I need to learn to do is go to bed. So I'm gonna read the posts, take notes and then go to bed. Fair warning - I'm spending tomorrow with my toddler and she needs all of my attention. (Partly why I've posted so much tonight). I may or may not be this active again tomorrow night. I will definitely be stuffed. I'll read along when I can, and if I know what's good for me, try and get a good night's sleep so I can post more after votes have been made. Thanks for the fun this far. Please don't mislynch me in my sleep  . 

 

Ninight

 

No such thing as hesitation! I just wanted to clarify whether you were being mentored during this game before we get into the next few days and arguments become more important.

 

I'll also join Kivam in complimenting your post. Welcome. 

[hazelkrs1]

Okay one more thing before I respond to more specific stuff from last few pages-

 

Cass is basically the most LOCK CLEAR person in the game imo. Wombat contending this actually lowers my town read of him, to be honest. I talked about this in the QT with Csarmi, and we both agree that Stream of Consciousness posts are much harder to fake for newer players that rolled scum. Cass' posts are SOOOOOO townie in this respect it is absurd.

Furthermore I like her ability to show good thread recall, and often makes good points and asks good and pointed questions to other people. Something else- she acknowledges that Kivam is legendary, and yet proceeds to say his tone seemed off, and generally question his alignment here. Newb scum Cass would NEVER go after a by her own description "legendary player" like Kivam imo, even if they were both scum together I don't think she would immediately start off with a distancing gambit play as those can be tricky to navigate.

 

Now, I didn't really agree with her conclusions here tbh, that Kivam had a wolfy tone or anything, but I WILL say that Kivam later responding perked my ears up a bit, because I thought he went a bit over the top explaining things to her and in general kind of coddling her and acting like he was taking her under his wing so to speak.

 

Speaking from experience here, this seems a bit weird to me because my very first mafia game on this site was Kathleen's Carebears game, and in fact Kivam was in that game. I incidentally rolled Cop, and also incidentally Kivam rolled mafia. In fact I started suspecting Kivam that game of being scum, and me and him had some fun back and forth, and he did eventually get lynched but I can't remember who actually won that game. Anyways what seemed weird to me was that Kivam didn't "take me under his wing" that game, he didn't act like he had to wear kid gloves with me or overexplain stuff, even tho he knew I was new.

 

I'm not actually making a meta argument here, I just think it's kind of funny that Kivam kinda went overboard in responding to Cass the way he did, when I don't remember him doing that with me in my first game. I'm kinda thinking he's doing this to Cass as scum to make himself look more helpful and townie.

 

Anyways, we're never lynching Cass this game. LOCK CLEAR.

[hazelkrs1]

DPR if you do actually get a bug up your butt and feel like responding to me at all (I seriously doubt you will), I'd like you to explain to me, and to everyone, why you have been saying that I was defending Yates (implying that I was defending Yates as town and that you had been questioning him) when YOU had initially townread Yates due to the Seer claim and him clearing Dice, while I was scumreading Yates.

[Kivam]

RECAP

 

Page 31: Cass shows up again, posts her introduction.  Finally, some content.  (As we've seen, that won't be an issue moving forward - and note to Cass: this was the post I referred to as "nothing", not your introduction.  Was your mistake a slip or misdirection?).  Arsis hardcore deflects DESlami's read with pure meta (-1).  Thane pokes at Arsis.  Sili continues his Emo defense, reaches out to Thane. Sili defends himself from a town-cred claim by Thane by repeating that seer cover is null.  (I can't believe we're still talking about this).  RECAP, part 2: lots of connections for Thane and Arsis through that recap, btw.  DESlami smacks Sili around a bit for his play (yeah, I'd call this post "shaming").  Thane likes the way I post [note to Thane: Thanks, but see my recent post to Cass for how you should treat my posts].  VerBARM backs Songstress, jumps on Sili a bit.  Sili has a terrible habit of quoting people without the link or name of the person he's quoting - please change that - defends his play, counterattacks.  Wombat and Songstress push Sili, then DESlami piles on ... the ease with which Sili is taking heat causes me some concern; doesn't seem like anyone is all that interested in saving him from it (other than VERBarm earlier), though none of the heat is translating into votes.  Wonder what would happen if it did...

 

Page 32: Salami agrees with Des' DESLAMI reads. (Oy. Hydras hurt my head). Sili votes Andrej for "pinging him early"; can't argue with the read, but no detail given, and while being pushed himself and after I've already posted my case/read on Andrej?  Reads as deflection or inoculation, though that may be because I've been reading both Sili and Andrej as scummy already.  I point out that Sili's initial comment (early vote is not one to sweat) is basically true.  Nyn says Thane is generally scummy as a townie - have I mentioned that I hate meta?  Also, interesting given her stance earlier in the thread that she would judge his play based on this game alone - seems inconsistent.  Nyn?. VerBARM points out that Sili's vote is an opportunistic OMGUS. Krak posts no content, asks for content from others. VerBARM calls him out on it (+1).  Nyn & Krak spiral off into yet more awesome double entendres.  Krak says he'll post more content after he gets off work - don't remember him following through, though.  

 

Page 33: Barm provides a vote/activity check.  DESlami defends the emo.  (This reads genuine to me).  Dice shows up, talks Yates, unvotes Cass because she "feels natural" (*headdesk*).  Nyn asks Sili for his reads.  DesLAMI says Cass' post couldn't have come from a wolf (huh?).  Krak asks why Dice explained the unvote (if he didn't, we'd have asked, no?).  Dice denies explaining the unvote (-1.  What?  You did. It was right there.  My Recap Part 3 ... interesting, Sili voted Andrej here too, before my read was posted, but why the revote on p. 32?  Curiouser and curiouser.  Darthe likes Yates for scum.  

 

Page 34: DESlami says he thinks Wes is scum because he's being cryptic (heh), Darthe is lying about the seer claim.  "Townies explain things" - no.  Townies only explain things when leaving them unexplained can't help develop information.  DESlami identifies seer cover as a null tell - too easy for scum to do for town cred.  Sili says he'll be working off the OMGUS stigma for a while, posts his reads which are generally decent, though I disagree on some of them.  Darthe makes an odd point to DESlami re his seer claim (if DESlami is reading these claims as mainly cover, Darthe & Wes wouldn't have to be a scum team for Wes to be scum).  DESlami calls him out for it (+1).  Darthe posts reads ... can't tell who he has as town and who as scum, since it's just lists without headings.  More Darthe-Des back and forth, with Des the clear winner.  Darthe moving back towards a scum shade for me.  Leelou puts in an appearance - not a fan of Darthe.  (+1).  Darthe defends some more.  Barm asks Leelou for her reasoning.

 

Recaps on hold due to work, but right now, my top 4 for scum are Andrej, Arsis, Sili, and Darthe.  Sili, Arsis, and Darthe probably have the most connections in that "associative cloud" Stelio was talking about (my approach as well) which is why I'm pretty well locked into picking one of those 3 for D1 lynch (pending the last few pages of recap), despite having Andrej as my scummiest overall.

[hazelkrs1]

Kivam, two things I'd like you to respond to, besides some of the other stuff I've addressed in my last couple of posts:

 

1. Why do you say you still have Sili as a top scumread even tho you think he's taking heat too easily? Seemed off to me

2. From what I remember, AJ (Andrej) had actually faded as a scumread for you a bit, or at the very least you've mentioned a lot more stuff on people like Darthe for instance that would seem to make them bigger scumreads. Yet you say at the end just now he's still your biggest scumread?

 

And fyi, I WAS "shaming" Sili for some posts he made earlier, not his play in general but rather his propensity to insult DM towns here when he's playing. It's actually insulting the entire player base imo, and he's done it many many times lately and I find it very disrespectful, especially from a newer player.

 

---

 

Lastly, Csarmi and I have been slated to do VC's today, so if anyone knows what page had the last VC on it, I would GREATLY appreciate if they could point me to it. Thanks in advance!

 

[Thane Vakarian]

i think it was page 37 Des

[Kivam]

Des, without going back and looking for that game (which I don't remember at all), I'm fairly confident that if you were a new player, I absolutely posted some general "Mafia Basics/Strategy" type tips; I do that any time I'm playing with new players.  Of course, since I was scum that game, the meta crowd isn't going to like that

[Sili Quirrels]

i don't respect authority if i think they're grossly wrong.

[Nynaeve]

Nyn says Thane is generally scummy as a townie - have I mentioned that I hate meta?  Also, interesting given her stance earlier in the thread that she would judge his play based on this game alone - seems inconsistent.  Nyn?. 

 

I will reiterate. I wasn't saying meta isn't a valuable tool (I get that you hate meta lol  but I think it helps me sometimes when I'm adding things up in my head). I just didn't like the way his prior mislynches were brought up  as if it's a selling point for him being town this game. With that said, I have quite a few games with Thane under my belt at this point. I used to pounce him at the first sign of logic fail. Because he usually comes up with a lot of ideas and has brain farts that sorta make me go..... huh? O_o Why would he EVER say that!?!

 

With him I try to tone down my trigger reaction of interpreting his oddities into scumminess. I have looked over at his content so far. Has he said things that would qualify as scummy? Sure. But taking Thane's comments at face value usually leads me to misread him. So what I'm doing is looking for eagerness, consistency, thread presence, transparency and him basically saying whatever he's thinking. As the game progresses I want to see him following through with his thoughts, And so on. If I see him shifting away from this I am more than willing to revisit my read on him.

 

In a nutshell I'm not going to put up with anyone giving him a free pass just cause he keeps getting mislynched. I still think it's more on him than other people's inability to read him. But whatever. I'm gonna try to adjust and try to make out what he means because it's often not clear to me. Gutread says town.... but I have to admit that him not expanding on his reads when Yates(?) asked kinda bugged me a bit. I hope he gets on that when he gets home, cause I think he eventually said that the reason he hasn't expanded was because he's at work.

 

But yeah, Thane sense =/ Nyn sense. And it's something I take into consideration when I read his posts.

[Thane Vakarian]

Actually, it was Darthe asking Nyn

[hazelkrs1]

I could be wrong about it Kivam, it was certainly a long time ago.

 

And yeah I was trying to reiterate that I wasn't making a meta point against you, sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

Could you respond to post #964 please?

[Thane Vakarian]

i tried to explain how i make the little list of suspects/townies in my head D1, it's more gut than anything else. Flips will either confirm if the feeling was correct or off. 

[Nynaeve]

Actually, it was Darthe asking Nyn

 

My bad!  

[Sili Quirrels]

Tell us about your gut thane.

[Kivam]

Kivam, two things I'd like you to respond to, besides some of the other stuff I've addressed in my last couple of posts:

 

1. Why do you say you still have Sili as a top scumread even tho you think he's taking heat too easily? Seemed off to me

2. From what I remember, AJ (Andrej) had actually faded as a scumread for you a bit, or at the very least you've mentioned a lot more stuff on people like Darthe for instance that would seem to make them bigger scumreads. Yet you say at the end just now he's still your biggest scumread?

 

And fyi, I WAS "shaming" Sili for some posts he made earlier, not his play in general but rather his propensity to insult DM towns here when he's playing. It's actually insulting the entire player base imo, and he's done it many many times lately and I find it very disrespectful, especially from a newer player.

 

---

 

Lastly, Csarmi and I have been slated to do VC's today, so if anyone knows what page had the last VC on it, I would GREATLY appreciate if they could point me to it. Thanks in advance!

 

 

1) Sili has been among those with the most questionable play.  He also has taken a lot of heat without garnering a lot of votes; people seem to be piling onto his play but not voting him, which can be suggestive of bad/half-assed team play ("I don't want to ignore the scumminess of my teammate but I also don't want to be lynch fuel").  It can also be indicative of a townie being pushed.  It's a note of caution, but it's also external to his game play (i.e. it's about how other people are reacting to him and not about how he is playing), which both leaves my scumread on him standing and means his lynch would be relatively informative, which is the priority Day 1. 

 

2) Andrej hasn't faded - he just has not been particularly active/present in any of the recaps since # 2 or 3.  Basically, his play started scummy, he took some heat for it, and other than an OMGUS vote for me (which I haven't gotten to in the recap yet) he's disappeared.  All of that keeps him at the top of my list.

 

3) Darthe has been sliding up and down the list during the recap.  Until this last round, I had him fading back into the pack, but his play in the just recapped pages has him moving back up the list, and definitely displacing Thane in my top 4.  Still behind the other 3, who have been almost unremittingly suspicious, but definitely has more connections/interactions than Andrej (the benefits of disappearing day 1).

 

[Nynaeve]

i tried to explain how i make the little list of suspects/townies in my head D1, it's more gut than anything else. Flips will either confirm if the feeling was correct or off. 

 

You will have to refer to content, though to back up your reads. There's no avoiding that. Like gutreads are fine for when the game just starts off and there's nothing more to go on... but we're on page 50 now.... you honestly don't feel like the content of people have any bearings on your reads at this point?