Defining DM Mafia Roles and Balance

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

it's not like any game with standardized rules.

 

there's no NML.

 

it's like cops and robbers the way kids play it. every bunch of kids plays it a little different and the game evolves from

play to play and sometimes there's electric tag.

[WWWwombat]

 

Mafia isn't really like either of those games tho.

Okay. If we are going to nitpick my analogy [LOL] how about Magic type card game like Hearthstone? Mafia actually *IS* very similar mechanically. It was, after all, started AS a card game where people drew their roles from a hat.

 

The difference between the two is that the MOD stacks the deck instead of the player in Mafia. You still have cards [roles] that need to be clearly defined - just as they were from the beginning. Obviously in Hearthstone [as with original live Mafia], the way a card works is written right on the card. And you know what cards potentially exist in the game. You don't know what cards the player actually has in their deck or when they might get them but you at least know someone isn't going to play an 8 manna card on the first or second turn of the game.

 

Better analogy for you?

 

 

Basically, you want the roles to do what they say on the tin.  I have no problem with that as long as there's still room for variants in non-basic games.

[Yates]

Basically, you want the roles to do what they say on the tin.  I have no problem with that as long as there's still room for variants in non-basic games.

That's EXACTLY right. And I agree 100% that variants absolutely should and MUST exist outside of basic games.

[Nolder]

 

 

Mafia isn't really like either of those games tho.

Okay. If we are going to nitpick my analogy [LOL] how about Magic type card game like Hearthstone? Mafia actually *IS* very similar mechanically. It was, after all, started AS a card game where people drew their roles from a hat.

 

The difference between the two is that the MOD stacks the deck instead of the player in Mafia. You still have cards [roles] that need to be clearly defined - just as they were from the beginning. Obviously in Hearthstone [as with original live Mafia], the way a card works is written right on the card. And you know what cards potentially exist in the game. You don't know what cards the player actually has in their deck or when they might get them but you at least know someone isn't going to play an 8 manna card on the first or second turn of the game.

 

Better analogy for you?

 

 

Basically, you want the roles to do what they say on the tin.  I have no problem with that as long as there's still room for variants in non-basic games.

 

Yes that is what we're saying. And in my proposal specifically 2/3 gametypes leave room for variants so I don't really see what all the fuss is about.

[WWWwombat]

 

 

 

I don't think playing an open setup is a good way to learn how to play closed setups.  There are plenty of tactics that don't overlap.  DM Basic games were one of two open setups once upon a time though.  We did have a bit of a problem getting mods and players for those sometimes.

I think there's a big difference between learning to play mafia with an open setup and learning to play mafia with a closed setup.

One is unambiguous and good for learning, the other presents an extra layer to the puzzle you're already facing.

Obviously playing an open setup isn't a good way to learn to play closed setups...but it is a good way to learn how to play mafia.

 

 

I disagree.  Open setups often lead to lots of claims and clearing people based on them.  That is not a good way to learn to play mafia imo.

 

That's mafia tactics not mechanics. When I say learn to play mafia I mean learn what a Tracker does, when a Tracker can use their power, how it works in relation to roles like Cop and Roleblocker. Not how a Tracker should play, that not only comes with time and knowledge of the game but is also somewhat subjective and based on personal preferences and experiences. It may be generally agreed on that lots of claims are generally bad but new players will figure that out over time and/or will have veterans playing with them who can explain why it's a bad idea. You can't explain a role you don't know is in the game. Or...well you can but then you're just shooting in the wind and what you say may be irrelevant.

 

Ok, but learning to play mafia is much more about learning tactics and strategy than it is about learning mechanics.  If you want to learn standard mechanics, you can always go read a wiki.  To go back to Yates' chess analogy for a second, just because you know how a knight moves doesn't mean you know how to use it to jump around the board and fork enemy pieces.

[Tommyrod]

I don't even understand what the fundamental argument is about.

[Yates]

Can I just take a minute and applaud myself for that Magic analogy finally getting through?  Talk about "know thy audience!"  

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

it's about graphomania

[WWWwombat]

Yes that is what we're saying. And in my proposal specifically 2/3 gametypes leave room for variants so I don't really see what all the fuss is about.

 

Well I haven't really been fussing that much FWIW, just discussing specifics like whether or not there should be mandatory open setups for Basic.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

you should have gone for Pokemon

[hazelkrs1]

 

Mafia isn't really like either of those games tho.

Okay. If we are going to nitpick my analogy [LOL] how about Magic type card game like Hearthstone? Mafia actually *IS* very similar mechanically. It was, after all, started AS a card game where people drew their roles from a hat.

 

The difference between the two is that the MOD stacks the deck instead of the player in Mafia. You still have cards [roles] that need to be clearly defined - just as they were from the beginning. Obviously in Hearthstone [as with original live Mafia], the way a card works is written right on the card. And you know what cards potentially exist in the game. You don't know what cards the player actually has in their deck or when they might get them but you at least know someone isn't going to play an 8 manna card on the first or second turn of the game.

 

Better analogy for you?

Yes, better analogy.

 

I still like thinking of mafia as a living, breathing, pulsating, evolving, growing, sweating, oozing, organism.

 

I like thinking of mafia as a mistress I make love to in the dark, a fickle and cruel lover who sometimes bites your earlobes a little too hard, a cantankerous mate that you are addicted to and yet grow to near hate yet are too set in your ways to ever leave.

 

I like to think of mafia as a confused and helpless fawn that over time, learns to spot the lustful look in your eye and know when to go bounding into the next glen. A wounded animal that you have to nurse back to health, just so it can eventually attack you and force you to put it down, and find out that the only reason it attacked was that it was pregnant so you raise its children out of guilt, and learn to be more understanding when they rake you across the face with their vicious claws, because deep down they prob know what you did to their mom.

 

I'm sorry, I got lost. Where was I going with this?

[hazelkrs1]

I think your analogy beats mine

 

[WWWwombat]

it's about graphomania

 

no u

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

^see

 

graphomania

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

 

 

it's about graphomania

no u

I plead no contest

[WWWwombat]

ITT Despo trying to be the new DPR and just coming off like a creep.

[Yates]

Ok, but learning to play mafia is much more about learning tactics and strategy than it is about learning mechanics.

I think they are tied to one another. How can you focus on tactics and strategy if you don't even understand the basic mechanics? So we want to DEFINE those mechanics for these types of roles and players looking for straightforward games. That's all. As you said, we want the roles to match the tin.

[WWWwombat]

/thread?

[Nolder]

 

 

 

 

I don't think playing an open setup is a good way to learn how to play closed setups.  There are plenty of tactics that don't overlap.  DM Basic games were one of two open setups once upon a time though.  We did have a bit of a problem getting mods and players for those sometimes.

I think there's a big difference between learning to play mafia with an open setup and learning to play mafia with a closed setup.

One is unambiguous and good for learning, the other presents an extra layer to the puzzle you're already facing.

Obviously playing an open setup isn't a good way to learn to play closed setups...but it is a good way to learn how to play mafia.

 

 

I disagree.  Open setups often lead to lots of claims and clearing people based on them.  That is not a good way to learn to play mafia imo.

 

That's mafia tactics not mechanics. When I say learn to play mafia I mean learn what a Tracker does, when a Tracker can use their power, how it works in relation to roles like Cop and Roleblocker. Not how a Tracker should play, that not only comes with time and knowledge of the game but is also somewhat subjective and based on personal preferences and experiences. It may be generally agreed on that lots of claims are generally bad but new players will figure that out over time and/or will have veterans playing with them who can explain why it's a bad idea. You can't explain a role you don't know is in the game. Or...well you can but then you're just shooting in the wind and what you say may be irrelevant.

 

Ok, but learning to play mafia is much more about learning tactics and strategy than it is about learning mechanics.  If you want to learn standard mechanics, you can always go read a wiki.  To go back to Yates' chess analogy for a second, just because you know how a knight moves doesn't mean you know how to use it to jump around the board and fork enemy pieces.

 

Yes but without knowing how a knight moves you'll never be able to learn how to fork in the first place.

You're putting the cart before the horse. And believe me I totally understand the emphasis you want to put on tactics because yes that is where the meat of the game really is but you can't get to that meat without preparing and cooking it first. The first thing every player needs to learn in a game is what the "pieces" do. What's possible and impossible, what are the ins and outs? After that is established is when a player moves on to learning the best way to manipulate those "pieces" and why. I think you and others are having your perspective colored by virtue of already knowing how to play so you emphasize what is important to you which is tactics not mechanics because you already know the fundamentals.

[Yates]

I'm sorry, I got lost. Where was I going with this?

Uhh... BRB.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

lock it

[hazelkrs1]

ITT Despo trying to be the new DPR and just coming off like a creep.

[hazelkrs1]

/thread?

[WWWwombat]

 

Ok, but learning to play mafia is much more about learning tactics and strategy than it is about learning mechanics.

I think they are tied to one another. How can you focus on tactics and strategy if you don't even understand the basic mechanics? So we want to DEFINE those mechanics for these types of roles and players looking for straightforward games. That's all. As you said, we want the roles to match the tin.

 

 

Yeah, I've been agreeing with you on this since you made it clear you were mainly talking about Basic, so you're kinda preaching to the choir with me.

[Tommyrod]

 

ITT Despo trying to be the new DPR and just coming off like a creep.

Creeper