Defining DM Mafia Roles and Balance

[WWWwombat]

I'm not up to date on all the current games, but I think if you're using the word Commuter to mean anything other than a role that can become untargetable you're doing it wrong and even the current standards make that clear.

[Yates]

I was in a game where a "Commuter" took ANOTHER PLAYER OUT OF THE GAME AS WELL. That's why I keep bringing that role up as an example of a time I was seriously frustrated.

[WWWwombat]

 

What I think it comes down to is that uniformity in the roles would be convenient for some players, but kind of unfair to mods who like to think outside the box.

I think we are arguing two different points.

 

The first point has to do with basic roles and definitions.  It isn't about "convenience."  It's about basic rules.  If you are playing chess, for example, you go in to chess knowing that a knight moves two squares in 1 direction then 1 square in another direction.  You know that because that's how a KNIGHT is defined as working.  So when I make my next move, I make my move based on how I know each piece on a chess board should work.  If I go to your house and you are like "LOL - Knight can move as many spaces as it wants in ANY direction!" I'll be pretty ticked because that's how a QUEEN works, not a Knight.

 

Now, if you want to be CREATIVE?  If you want people to think outside the box?  That's great.  I support that.  I think you can have tons of fun in those games.  Just don't call a Cop-like role a Cop.  Go whole hog with your creativity.  Call your Cop-like role an "Investigator" or "Police Officer" or "Security Guard" or "Galvatron."  I don't care.  I won't feel like I'm being lied to if one of those roles doesn't act they way I think the role will. And in that instance? You guys will be right. It would be on me for making assumptions.

 

 

Chess is a much older game than mafia though, with rules that have remained completely static for most of its history.

[Tommyrod]

 

 

 

I think there's a disconnect here between players who are well versed in mafia not wanting their creative freedoms tampered with and a small group who wish to codify certain things and eliminate inefficiency both to the benefit of mods and newer players. We get it, you don't want people telling you how to run your games or what exactly X role should do. I hope you can understand though that this creates a significant learning curve for newer players that wouldn't otherwise exist while also leading to an uncertainty (ie can a doc protect himself or not?) from regular players that require either explanation every single game or assumptions which are often faulty and can lead to bad gameplay. I think both groups have their points but I don't see why we can't find some middle ground and come up with something that suits everyone. I have a few simple ideas I think could greatly improve things around here without compromising the creative freedom to modify or be experimental with roles that many people are worried about losing.

 

1. Switch To A New Three Tiered System: [basic], [standard], [Advanced]

This idea has been around for a long time and I think there actually is significant support for this idea it's just the people who like it never voice it all at once. What this would do is give a clearer indication what you're getting out of a game. Right now sometimes we play Basic games and either some roles or some mechanics don't quite seem Basic to some people or congruent with learning how to play mafia. Sometimes we play Advanced games and they seem a bit too simple, not the epic kitchen sink game we were expecting. When you move a Standard tier into the middle I think this would help tremendously by sapping the Basic+ and Advanced- games into a whole category on it's own. It's for games that don't necessarily make up roles or mechanics and aren't epic or experimental in scope but are also not geared towards learning the fundamentals of Mafia. I really think this would be helpful for both players and game moderators to better manage their goals and expectations.

 

This also would help up some of the significant backlogging the current queue has. When people sign up to mod a game it will be months before their turn is up. Sometimes people disappear or get busy and when their turn comes they have to drop out or they need to be removed and then if they come back it will be months again before they get another turn. This hasn't been a huge problem in the past but it looks like it's becoming burdensome for people who really want to show everyone their next great idea. They shouldn't have to wait two thirds of a year to do that. Adding a Standard tier will help alleviate the pressure on the Advanced queue because some people just have some pretty mundane games they'd like to run maybe with a certain theme in mind and they only signed up for Advanced because of one role or another. Meanwhile they're waiting behind and ahead of others who have these grand masterpieces that they spent months perfecting. It doesn't make sense for these different groups of people to all wait in the same line. If there's one idea out of what I'm suggesting that I could make happen for sure it would be this one.

 

2. Add New Forum Moderators & Rules

This kind of goes into the backlog and sluggish pace of games thing but as I'm sure many of you are aware it can sometimes take awhile to sticky and unsticky games. Currently this is Verbal's responsibility and his alone I think so the fault is with him. That said...I don't blame the guy. He's the only one who can do this and he has a lot of other responsibilities, some of them significantly more important like child rearing and playing world of warcraft. There's also a problem with people sometimes taking a long time to start their sign ups when they're next in the queue and this has actually been an issue for some time with some people including myself taking it upon ourselves to poke and prod people to start their games. That's not really good because it's not our place and I've seen it cause some sore feelings in the past despite the most harmless and well meaning of intentions. And even with people volunteering to prod it can still take awhile for the people in line to make games or for Verbal to take them out of the queue and OK the next person in line. Again that's not his fault, he can't be here every hour of every day to monitor this stuff some of which happens via PM's. I think adding a couple of mafia board moderators with the sole purpose of helping with sticking/unsticking threads and enforcing a new rule about signups for games would help a lot. It would ease tensions between mods waiting in line for other mods, players poking MIA mods because they want to play a game, etc. And just so it's absolutely clear, I am not putting myself forward and have no interest in being one of these moderators. In fact just because I know with new moderators comes trust issues I would actually prefer these moderators to be current DM moderators if anyone is willing to step up. I don't want to put anyone on the spot but Leelou or Lily for example are long time DM mods and I don't think anyone would have a problem with them helping if they wanted. There are a lot of DM mods involved with mafia so there's lots of options and I'm sure there's at least one or two people who wouldn't mind helping out with this. No need to upset things by adding brand new moderators when current ones would work just fine.

 

Now the more controversial suggestion here is a new rule but I hope it's not actually that controversial. All I'm thinking is something like when it's your turn in the queue you need to make your sign ups within...three days? That covers weekends should that matter. I also think sign ups should last no longer than 1 week from when it's posted. If you're ready to go then your game starts and if you didn't get enough people it's canceled. Too many games sit in sign up limbo for way too long and I think this is a part of why the queue gets so backlogged and runs so slow. The numbers here are all negotiable of course so don't get stuck on that and say the idea is bad because 1 week is too long/short or whatever. If it's too long/short that's fine maybe we can agree on a different length of time but the point is I think there does need to be a time limit and things need to keep being shuffled forward at a steady pace otherwise things start to slow and backlog and that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid with these ideas.

 

3. Change The Way Basic Games Work

As noted before part of the major disconnect here is between people who want to codify roles and have clear expectations on game mechanics and people who don't want their creative freedoms infringed on. I think changing the way Basic games work is the best way to compromise between these two groups of people to the benefit of everyone, especially new players. First of all I think we need to note what the primary purpose of a Basic game is so we're all on the same page. I would argue the primary purpose of a Basic game is to introduce new players to Mafia and teach them how to play the game. With that said, it doesn't make much sense to exercise creative freedom in Basic games. I know we're all very creative people and we want to show off our great ideas but that isn't what new players need. New players need things that are set in stone and easy to understand mechanics. Adding the uncertainty of whether a certain role works a certain way can be too much for some people to take in and make the experience overwhelming or unenjoyable. It's fun for us because we don't have the same pressure of figuring out what the hell you're supposed to say or do, we've been through it many times but a new player can struggle with every post and many do so with the fear that if they mess up they will be ostracized. I don't think we need to add role uncertainty into the mix for them to enjoy the game.

 

That said, here's what I'm proposing. Basic games will run on a schedule. Sign ups will open on the 1st of the month and close on the 7th with the actual game starting on the 8th. The game will run on deadlines that will conclude the game by week 4 at the latest just in time for the new sign ups. The games will have predetermined setups that will rotate and all the setups will be open. All roles and mechanics will be defined and set in stone. This way there is no confusion or guesswork involved for new players with how to play. All of their mental abilities will be focused on figuring out their opponents and outsmarting them.

 

This does not infringe on the creative freedom game mods can express in Standard or Advanced games which, let's be honest, most put their efforts into anyway. We don't see many mods experimenting in Basic games. All this will do is clear up confusion for new players and keep Basic games rolling at a steady pace which is helpful to new players who aren't always sure they want to promise their time to something with an undetermined start and end date. It makes it easy to jump in and learn which is what the primary purpose of Basic games are, right? And I think it's clear how a cut and dry schedule would help a backlog.

 

 

I agree with the three-tiered system and providing Verbal with some reinforcements. I don't think restricting basic games to open setups only is a good idea though. The vast majority of the games on this site are closed setups so it doesn't serve the new players well to have them learning only open setups.

Basic in this system would be semi open. "These are the 20 possible roles, any of them could be in the game."

[WWWwombat]

I was in a game where a "Commuter" took ANOTHER PLAYER OUT OF THE GAME AS WELL. That's why I keep bringing that role up as an example of a time I was seriously frustrated.

 

The way I'd handle a role like that is call it something like "Alien Abductor" (alluding to the Alien and Commuting aspects of the role) and explain what it meant upon coroner.

[Yates]

Chess is a much older game than mafia though, with rules that have remained completely static for most of its history.

It's an analogy. Would you prefer we discuss the "skip" card in Phase 10?

[WWWwombat]

Basic in this system would be semi open. "These are the 20 possible roles, any of them could be in the game."

 

 

Nolder said "open."  I have no problem with semi-open as long as there's a large enough roleset as it's pretty similar to closed but does give the player some sort of idea of what to expect.

[Tommyrod]

Oh, and I think it's interesting that roles are NOT explained upon death here.

 

That one was new to me. I see this on WF and DM but not most other places. Often the Role PM is posted upon death so there's no uncertainty.

 

Guardian angel for example :p

[Tommyrod]

 

 

Basic in this system would be semi open. "These are the 20 possible roles, any of them could be in the game."

 

Nolder said "open." I have no problem with semi-open as long as there's a large enough roleset as it's pretty similar to closed but does give the player some sort of idea of what to expect.

Oh. Well the option for open is there as well. Don't think it should be compulsory though.

[WWWwombat]

 

Chess is a much older game than mafia though, with rules that have remained completely static for most of its history.

It's an analogy. Would you prefer we discuss the "skip" card in Phase 10?

 

 

I'd rather just play Mao and give you penalties for capricious reasons.  C wut I did thar?

[WWWwombat]

Oh, and I think it's interesting that roles are NOT explained upon death here.

 

That one was new to me. I see this on WF and DM but not most other places. Often the Role PM is posted upon death so there's no uncertainty.

 

Guardian angel for example :p

 

I usually don't bother to post explanations for roles like doc and cop, but anytime there could be ambiguity, I try to clear it up, unless the ambiguity is a deliberate part of the (Advanced) setup.

[Nolder]

I'm holding back commenting further for now because I want to get as much discussion about my proposed ideas as possible without guiding the conversation but I will say that I prefer open setups for Basic because it's about as clear as it gets.

 

This game has 1 Godfather, 2 Goons, 1 Cop, and 9 Villagers and here's how these roles work. Simple. Clean. No confusion and if somehow there is a question can be asked and answered because the mod isn't trying to hide anything from the players.

 

When you go with semi open you leave the door open for confusion. It's not nearly as bad as a closed setup but it's still possible and I'm not really sure I see the gain. What do you get out of saying "here's a list of 25 possible roles this game might have, good luck"? How is that conducive to learning Mafia? New players are much more likely to read, understand, and master 2-5 roles that they know they're going to encounter rather than a couple dozen roles that may or may not actually even be in the game. A lot of people wont bother trying to learn the roles at that point I think, opting to see what pops up and then researching after the fact.

 

To be clear and to reiterate, I am ok with semi open setups being the norm for Basic but I prefer open because I don't see the benefit of semi open in regards to teaching new players how to play. It seems like more of a treat for mods and vets that comes at new players expense.

[Tommyrod]

I see basic games as vet friendly as well, not solely for new players.

 

Some players here prefer basic games. I think having the semi open option for them is reasonable.

[WWWwombat]

I don't think playing an open setup is a good way to learn how to play closed setups.  There are plenty of tactics that don't overlap.  DM Basic games were one of two open setups once upon a time though.  We did have a bit of a problem getting mods and players for those sometimes.

[hazelkrs1]

 

What I think it comes down to is that uniformity in the roles would be convenient for some players, but kind of unfair to mods who like to think outside the box.

I think we are arguing two different points.

 

The first point has to do with basic roles and definitions.  It isn't about "convenience."  It's about basic rules.  If you are playing chess, for example, you go in to chess knowing that a knight moves two squares in 1 direction then 1 square in another direction.  You know that because that's how a KNIGHT is defined as working.  So when I make my next move, I make my move based on how I know each piece on a chess board should work.  If I go to your house and you are like "LOL - Knight can move as many spaces as it wants in ANY direction!" I'll be pretty ticked because that's how a QUEEN works, not a Knight.

 

Now, if you want to be CREATIVE?  If you want people to think outside the box?  That's great.  I support that.  I think you can have tons of fun in those games.  Just don't call a Cop-like role a Cop.  Go whole hog with your creativity.  Call your Cop-like role an "Investigator" or "Police Officer" or "Security Guard" or "Galvatron."  I don't care.  I won't feel like I'm being lied to if one of those roles doesn't act they way I think the role will. And in that instance? You guys will be right. It would be on me for making assumptions.

 

 

Wombat already covered this but yeah, the analogy doesn't work here. Chess is beautiful because the rigid structure still allows a myriad of strategies and developments. Even phase 10, which I don't know about, is still a set game with set rules.

 

Mafia isn't really like either of those games tho. It is a living, breathing, fluid, organic entity, always able to adapt to to the environment it is played in, and allowed to be anything from a simple town/mafia concept to multi-faction games with recruiting and bastard roles and everything under the sun.

 

Honestly, this seems less an issue of DM mafia meta, and more an issue of one or two mods perhaps not being as clear when they reveal certain roles or w/e.

 

And if someone claimed Commuter but said they had that other ability, well then you don't let yourself get tripped up on what is "normal" for you, cause that's dumb imo.

 

I'll play on other sites, and hear a role claim, and find out the mechanics look different than what I'm used to, and I'm like "okay" and just consider it amongst everything else I know about the situation. I don't get hung up on how that role doesn't function like I'm used to.

 

Like, it's kind of arrogant to assume EVERYONE ELSE is right about something, and we're wrong. Many roles have been originally used in much different ways, and just developed over time to suit their environment. Why can't it be the same here? If there's confusion about a role, try and see if it can be cleared up with the mod. Otherwise, don't automatically discount anything cause it's not what you're used to.

 

 

Mentoring can be cool but I'm not sure how serious some people take it.

 

I take it pretty seriously when I do it.  Which is why I get kind of annoyed when a mod tells me I can't talk about certain specifics of the game, because there's really no point in spouting general advice when I can't clearly explain how it applies to the specific game.

 

 

I agree with this as well.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

I haven't seen a lot of new players bowing out because they have difficulty learning here. Mafia appears to be addictive to a large percentage of the humans.

 

I have seen a lot of old and new players bow out because of real life Stuff or because they don't like the atmosphere or other players or they get burned out or whatever.

 

I think the biggest problem DM is having and will continue to have getting and keeping new and old players is the lack of new traffic to the site and lower activity board wide.

 

without any new wheel of time material being published, people are going to wander away and new people are going to stop wandering in.

 

making all of this sadly moot.

 

serious suggestion and not a snipe - if you love mafia above all else on forums and you are dissatisfied with the sate of any extant forum, perhaps you might consider what a handful of others have attempted and start a mafia forum and apply whatever rules and structure and governance you find best?

 

cause... whatever you think of this place, if youve been watching the numbers for a few years you will not need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

[Nolder]

I don't think playing an open setup is a good way to learn how to play closed setups.  There are plenty of tactics that don't overlap.  DM Basic games were one of two open setups once upon a time though.  We did have a bit of a problem getting mods and players for those sometimes.

I think there's a big difference between learning to play mafia with an open setup and learning to play mafia with a closed setup.

One is unambiguous and good for learning, the other presents an extra layer to the puzzle you're already facing.

Obviously playing an open setup isn't a good way to learn to play closed setups...but it is a good way to learn how to play mafia.

[Nolder]

serious suggestion and not a snipe - if you love mafia above all else on forums and you are dissatisfied with the sate of any extant forum, perhaps you might consider what a handful of others have attempted and start a mafia forum and apply whatever rules and structure and governance you find best?

Tried. Am too dumb to use idiot proof premade code.

Extremely disheartening.

[WWWwombat]

 

I don't think playing an open setup is a good way to learn how to play closed setups.  There are plenty of tactics that don't overlap.  DM Basic games were one of two open setups once upon a time though.  We did have a bit of a problem getting mods and players for those sometimes.

I think there's a big difference between learning to play mafia with an open setup and learning to play mafia with a closed setup.

One is unambiguous and good for learning, the other presents an extra layer to the puzzle you're already facing.

Obviously playing an open setup isn't a good way to learn to play closed setups...but it is a good way to learn how to play mafia.

 

 

I disagree.  Open setups often lead to lots of claims and clearing people based on them.  That is not a good way to learn to play mafia imo.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

 

 

serious suggestion and not a snipe - if you love mafia above all else on forums and you are dissatisfied with the sate of any extant forum, perhaps you might consider what a handful of others have attempted and start a mafia forum and apply whatever rules and structure and governance you find best?

Tried. Am too dumb to use idiot proof premade code.

Extremely disheartening.

try a partnership with likeminded and code knowing individuals? there are a few likelies here.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

ironic code fail is ironic.

[WWWwombat]

lol

[hazelkrs1]

 

 

 

 

I don't think playing an open setup is a good way to learn how to play closed setups. There are plenty of tactics that don't overlap. DM Basic games were one of two open setups once upon a time though. We did have a bit of a problem getting mods and players for those sometimes.

I think there's a big difference between learning to play mafia with an open setup and learning to play mafia with a closed setup.

One is unambiguous and good for learning, the other presents an extra layer to the puzzle you're already facing.

Obviously playing an open setup isn't a good way to learn to play closed setups...but it is a good way to learn how to play mafia.

I disagree. Open setups often lead to lots of claims and clearing people based on them. That is not a good way to learn to play mafia imo.

I hate that I agree with basically every post Wombat makes in this thread. I'm already prob too big a fanboi of his, now it's just getting ridiculous

[Yates]

Mafia isn't really like either of those games tho.

Okay. If we are going to nitpick my analogy [LOL] how about Magic type card game like Hearthstone? Mafia actually *IS* very similar mechanically. It was, after all, started AS a card game where people drew their roles from a hat.

 

The difference between the two is that the MOD stacks the deck instead of the player in Mafia. You still have cards [roles] that need to be clearly defined - just as they were from the beginning. Obviously in Hearthstone [as with original live Mafia], the way a card works is written right on the card. And you know what cards potentially exist in the game. You don't know what cards the player actually has in their deck or when they might get them but you at least know someone isn't going to play an 8 manna card on the first or second turn of the game.

 

Better analogy for you?

[Nolder]

 

 

I don't think playing an open setup is a good way to learn how to play closed setups.  There are plenty of tactics that don't overlap.  DM Basic games were one of two open setups once upon a time though.  We did have a bit of a problem getting mods and players for those sometimes.

I think there's a big difference between learning to play mafia with an open setup and learning to play mafia with a closed setup.

One is unambiguous and good for learning, the other presents an extra layer to the puzzle you're already facing.

Obviously playing an open setup isn't a good way to learn to play closed setups...but it is a good way to learn how to play mafia.

 

 

I disagree.  Open setups often lead to lots of claims and clearing people based on them.  That is not a good way to learn to play mafia imo.

 

That's mafia tactics not mechanics. When I say learn to play mafia I mean learn what a Tracker does, when a Tracker can use their power, how it works in relation to roles like Cop and Roleblocker. Not how a Tracker should play, that not only comes with time and knowledge of the game but is also somewhat subjective and based on personal preferences and experiences. It may be generally agreed on that lots of claims are generally bad but new players will figure that out over time and/or will have veterans playing with them who can explain why it's a bad idea. You can't explain a role you don't know is in the game. Or...well you can but then you're just shooting in the wind and what you say may be irrelevant.

 

 

 

serious suggestion and not a snipe - if you love mafia above all else on forums and you are dissatisfied with the sate of any extant forum, perhaps you might consider what a handful of others have attempted and start a mafia forum and apply whatever rules and structure and governance you find best?

Tried. Am too dumb to use idiot proof premade code.

Extremely disheartening.

try a partnership with likeminded and code knowing individuals? there are a few likelies here.

 

I don't know who knows code.