Elaida vs Siuan

[Aviendha al Thor]

I'm confused as to what exactly happened right before Siuan was stilled and Elaida became Amrylin... Elaida went to this farm where a novice who'd overheard a conversation of Siuan was sent.. Elaida did something to the novice and the farm owner.. but what exactly happened there? For a long time I thought she was Black Ajah coz I assumed she murdered that woman at the farm.. but did she?

[mb]

Actually, the novice heard a conversation between Min & Gawyn.

And a Black went to the farm.  Elaida was never a Black.  Several sources speculate Alviarin.

 

by the way, there were at least several past threads about this.

[Sabio]

Was a topic about who killed the people on the farm and it wasn't Elaida.  Pretty much the killer most have agreed upon is Alvarin.  RJ never wrote it directly but at the end there the POV of the laundry on the ground (forget what it exactly said) and the mention of no noise coming from the farm, so that's RJ way of saying no one was left alive.  After all if you are going to torture someone with the power like she did you really don't want any witnesses.  Alviarin knew the girl was there when Mn talked to Gawyn.  Elaida dismisses it saying something about the accepted probably didn't notice anything but his eyes.  Alvarin would on the other hand be very curious as to what occurred since Min was known to be an associate of the girls who are tied to Rand.

[Orderofolde]

I'm confused as to what exactly happened right before Siuan was stilled and Elaida became Amrylin... Elaida went to this farm where a novice who'd overheard a conversation of Siuan was sent.. Elaida did something to the novice and the farm owner.. but what exactly happened there? For a long time I thought she was Black Ajah coz I assumed she murdered that woman at the farm.. but did she?

I think that the question is a good one but people get thrown by the second part.  The question has had many threads discussing the big oops that occurred.  I think that the scene was revised slightly but still does not explain how it is that a warder can be killed (or incapacitated in some way with a knife) where Siuan didn't feel it.  I think it was said that she was already shielded before they enter her study (still doesn't mesh as sisters can escape once out of line of sight attempts of others to shield.  It would have been so much easier had they simply wrapped him up in flows of air.  

 

Prior to this, there is a lot of shifting around, you have to remember that the White Tower invented the Game of Houses.  The BA was working to use Elaida to overthrow Siuan to destabilize the tower in anticipation of their Great Lord's return.  Hence the theory that it was Alviarin that visited the farm to "question" the novice about what she overheard between Min and G outside the study.  The whole thing was stupid in my book because Siuan officially went to the Hall of the Tower once she had Moiraine's message, only one of several that had been sent so someone was intercepting the messages in the cotes from Moiraine.  Shiriam likely had some inkling of the people the Blues used as well as others among the Black Ajah, and probably intercepted anything from Moiraine to keep Siuan in the dark as prior to TGH Siuan gets flak about Moiraine being away for so long and many count her as blue and didn't want but one blue sister to go versus two from each other Ajah making the trip to Sheinar.

 

The whole excuse of having kept knowledge of Rand from everyone was ridiculous and a bit under-thought in my opinion or perhaps I just didn't understand.  Casting her down for her suspicion that Rand was the Dragon Reborn until he actually proved it and had Aes Sedai to witness...eh...it was a stupid affair that had a large following on account of the Black Ajah, a quick secret meeting of a mostly BA sitting of the hall with all those who would have brought common sense to bear...you can see with the split that had one sister more than what attended been there things would have been different.  It was Aes Sedainess and the BA that brought that fell swoop.  Another thing was using the OP to torture Liana and Siuan into revealing the key secrets of the staff and stole that was another big oops.  They can come to almost naming them Dark Friends, but even Black Sisters have rights and repeatedly we see Aes Sedai throughout the series using kit gloves with them.  Siuan and Liana had been mentally and physically tortured, so I'm not sure what RJ was thinking unless that was a glaringly obvious detail of the BA who had forsaken and dispensed of their oaths being the new masters?  Even the Forsaken themselves are asked questions...worst thing to happen was some awesomeness from Cadsuane who made Semir eat her food off the floor.  Nothing physical, only thing close is allowing them to think terrible things were about to befall them.

[Barid Bel Medar]

INTERVIEW: Apr 17th, 2011

Driving Mr. Sanderson - Terez (Verbatim)

 

TEREZ (CALLANDOR)

Who killed Sahra Covenry?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Bob Kluttz made a guess at this on the Encyclopaedia [The Shadow Rising 17] and he was correct. [bob noted that the most popular choice was Alviarin.]

 

[Sabio]

@Ordero, kid gloves all the BA Egwene found were beheaded.  None of the girls or even Moriane for that matter can't bring themselves to use torture on the BA in Tear.  Its more of a personal choice.  The investigation in the tower was suppose to be discrete investigation and I never got the feeling when they got a hold of BA they used kid gloves on them. Torture with the power for me is one of those its how each Aes Sedai defines the 3 oaths,  some might consider using the power for torture as using the power to harm/kill others might see it differently.  But physical torture all they need to justify is this person The excuse for deposing Siaun if I remember right was Siuan was secretly helping and hiding Rand while letting him run free causing chaos.  The Aes Sedai felt once the dragon Reborn was found he should be shielded and held at the tower until needed at the Last Battle where afterwards if he survived they would of more than likely tried to gentle him.  So the feeling was the Siaun risked a lot by hiding a man who could channel.  Elaida a red for one would jump at the chance to pull down Siuan, after all a red was pulled down for trying to manipulate Hawkwing, a point that was still raw with the Red's, so wasn't Siuan manipulating Rand and possibly risking the tower?  We also have no idea what role Messa played in all of this, she easily could of been using small doses of compulsion to make some more open to pulling down Siuan.  I felt the using loop holes in tower law to pull down Siuan fitting since everything about the Aes Sedai is finding loopholes and ways to get around things.

[Orderofolde]

True, they were beheaded but all along the sister's and the girls' POV's were all about the three oaths and tower law prohibiting the mistreatment of even Black Sisters.  Also true, we have Elaida when Egwene is serving dinner beat her senseless and other sisters she reflects took her punishment on themselves instead of bothering with silviana, I mostly remember a slipper and a hairbrush, but we also see the power used, a flick to an ear or a switch across the rump.  So while the oaths are in place and it is left to the sister's conscious to determine what truths are truths and what constitutes abuse, we also had a tower and a rebel camp filled with Black Sisters who were no longer bound by their oaths.

 

Also very true and sort of more direct than the point I was trying to make was that the BA and Messanna were all manipulating, possibly one of the other female forsaken who hit the tower prior to Messanna for a brief stint.  We know Lanfear played some games with Mat and the Wonder Girls while they were there.  I was just trying to say that the BA and Co. were really pulling the strings.  Many agreed and even some that remained behind that Siuan shouldn't have been pulled down.  The sitters who weren't black I think reflected briefly on it when they found out that there were ten rebel spies among them spreading rumors.

[mb]

the 10 were ferrets, not spies.  And they were sent after Suian (and her companions) arrived at Salidar.

[Aviendha al Thor]

Hey everyone, sorry I haven't reacted on this thread since I posted it. I'm new here and kept checking my content without clicking on the thread. .duhhh! I searched this site for threads on Elaida and the farm but came up empty so started this one. Thank you all for reacting to it. And damn.. i love your theories! That farm had me running circles for quite awhile! The whole takeover seemed to flash by in the book.. maybe i remember it wrong but it felt like i went from the farm to Siuan in a cell with Leane stilled and in pain of losing their warders. 

What also makes no sense to me is the fact that the entire tower simply accepts Elaida building herself a castle! I had the feeling that that was inserted just to show how far the tower had fallen. Yet in my opinion it wasn't really necessary coz disbanding the Blue Ajah was proof enough of that.

For the sake of argument here's the exact part of the book, and rereading it I realize i had assumed it was Elaida who went to the farm but it could've been Alviarin or Mesaana.. in my opinion it should be Mesaana coz I think she'd have less qualms with killing ppl than Alviarin. Also the torture she uses on Sahra seems very much like what Mesaana would do.. didn't she treat Alviarin like that when she felt Alviarin had overstepped?

 

Sahra Covenry worked the hoe in desultory fashion, frowning at the tiny sprouts of threadleaf

and hensfoot poking up in the rows of cabbages and beets. It was not that Mistress Elward was a

harsh taskmistress—she was no more stern than Sahra’s mother, and certainly easier that Sheriam—

but Sahra had not gone to the White Tower to end up back on a farm hoeing vegetables with the sun

barely up. Her white novice dresses were packed away; she wore brown wool her mother might have

sewn, the skirt tied up to her knees to keep it out of the dirt. It was all so unfair. She had not done

anything.

Wriggling her bare toes in the turned soil, she glared at a stubborn hensfoot and channeled,

meaning to burn it out of the ground. Sparks flashed around the leafy sprout, and it wilted. Hurriedly

she sliced the thing out of the dirt and her mind. If there was any fairness in the world, Lord Galad

would come to the farm while out hunting.

Leaning on the hoe, she lost herself in a daydream of Healing Galad’s injuries, received in a fall

from his horse—not his fault, of course; he was a wonderful horseman—and him lifting her up in front

of him on his saddle, declaring he would be her Warder—she would be Green Ajah, of course—and.

. . .

“Sahra Covenry?”

Sahra jumped at the sharp voice, but it was not Mistress Elward. She curtsied as best she could,

with her skirts gathered up. “The day’s greeting, Aes Sedai. Have you come to take me back to the

Tower?”

The Aes Sedai moved closer, not caring that her skirts dragged through the dirt of the vegetable

patch. Despite the summer warmth of the morning, she wore a cloak, the hood pulled up to shadow

her face. “Just before you left the Tower, you took a woman to the Amyrlin Seat. A woman calling

herself Elmindreda.”

“Yes, Aes Sedai,” Sahra said, a slight question in her voice. She did not like the way the Aes

Sedai had said that, as if she had left the Tower for good.

“Tell me everything that you heard or saw, girl, from the moment you took the woman in charge.

Everything.”

“But I heard nothing, Aes Sedai. The Keeper sent me away as soon as—” Pain racked her,

digging her toes into the dirt, arching her back; the spasm lasted only moments, but it seemed eternal.

Struggling for breath, she realized her cheek was pressed to the ground, and her still trembling fingers

dug into the soil. She did not remember falling. She could see Mistress Elward’s laundry basket lying

on its side near the stone farmhouse, damp linens spilled out in a heap. Dazed, she thought that that

was odd; Moria Elward would never leave her washing lying like that.

“Everything, girl,” the Aes Sedai said coldly. She was standing over Sahra now, making no

move to help her. She had hurt her; it was not supposed to be that way. “Every person this

Elmindreda spoke to, every word she said, every nuance and expression.”

“She spoke to Lord Gawyn, Aes Sedai,” Sahra sobbed into the earth. “That is all I know, Aes

Sedai. All.” She began to weep in earnest, sure that was not enough to satisfy this woman. She was

right. She did not stop screaming for a long time, and when the Aes Sedai left there was not a sound

around the farmhouse except for the chickens, not even breathing.

[Sabio]

Alviarin wouldn't hesitate to kill, Verin hinted to be BA you have to do some pretty bad stuff and as we have seen the BA doesn't hesitate to kill or torture.  To be the head of the BA such as Alviarin I would think she would have to be really smart but extra ruthless.  I was like you for awhile and couldn't decide between Alviarin and Mesaana.  Alviarin won out IMO opinion since she knew enough to be curious about the sudden appearance of Min in the tower again.  I also think Mesaana would be more likely to send out someone to do the job then doing it herself.  Anytime she was seen in the tower she took care to use the trick with the power to distort her appearance, so appearing in the open like that to torture Sahra would of been a big risk.  Mesaana would also be less likely to simply pretend to be a Aes Sedai to get answers, she could simply kidnap the girl and torture her.

 

 

Brandon Sanderson

Bob Kluttz made a guess at this on the encyclopedia and he was correct.  Bob noted the most popular choice was Alviarin. 

[mb]

All I recall Verin telling about joining Black Ajah was that the Dark One looked for selfishness in his servants.

[Magicana]

As for treating the BA with kids gloves, lets not forget the treatment of... Ispan... with Adeleas and Vandene after they left Ebou Dar.

[Sabio]

Egwene asked if Verin was telling her all of this for redemption.

Verin replied: Redemption?  I should think it wouldn't be so easily earned.  Light knows I've done enough to require a very special kind of redemption. 

 

With as long as Verin had lived I imagine she has a long list of crimes she has committed.  I imagine every member of the BA has probably has at least one murder to their credit..