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[Basic] Blood Moon Mafia - Game Over.


Andrej

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Posted

@Vos’ case:

I find it weird that he said that nothing sticks out in a way about Peace’s play this game. Everyone makes mistakes in games and so has Peace in my opinion. If you think he has been playing very townie then you should explain what made you come to this conclusion. Saying that he is level-headed, rational and made well-weighed statements isn’t cutting it, because those are traits that good scum players also exhibit.

His reads on Tom and Salami seem very wishy washy to me as he keeps going back and forth between reading them both as scum and town, especially with his reads on Salami. I’m not a fan of that kind of play because it leaves a lot of wiggle room for scum to slip through.
 

Falls off the radar again, and when he comes back he seems much more interested in looking like he is writing long posts and looking pro-town than actively scumhunting.

I was busy catching up and giving my opinion on the things that were happening, but I also think that I did a decent job with scumhunting and townhunting. Also, I have a tendency to write long posts and I also believe it is the job of every townie to distinguish themselves as town because it puts the focus on the mafia instead.
 

Also makes some gross assumptions to support his theories (like that if Mish had a PR, and didn't claim at L-1 then the hammer would HAVE to be scum. Its very possible but still.)

I wasn’t the one who said that. I think it was Hallia?
 

Being very fond of criticizing others play as wish-washy (or whatever) while certainly being guilty of that himself.

You call me out for being wishy washy, and then later you accuse me of being scum because I make definite statements. These two accusations are in contrast to each other. It’s either one or the other, you can’t have it both ways.
 

Then carries on making assumptions to support definite statements, like when he cleares Peace as town, with a rational that builds upon a previous assumption (that Tom is town).

My reasoning for thinking that Peace was town wasn’t based around my town read on that Tom. You would know this if you actually read what I wrote instead of only tried to pick at every mistake you think I made.
 

 

Certainly building up a case, but puts it forward in a too sure way, seeming more interested in swaying town to thinking this and this than to put forward evidence.

If you make these kind of accusations against someone you should also be prepared to support them with evidence. So please provide examples where you think I haven’t used enough evidence in my cases and have relied on conjecture instead.

 

Unsure if there is a motivation (buddying up to town Peace, clearing his scum-mate), trying too hard to look like a valuable town or just lazy play.

So who isn’t putting forward any evidence now? :laugh: You also seem to be unsure of the motivation behind my play here and yet you are voting for me right now which means that you think I’m scum. Also, you are contradicting yourself again by considering the possibility of me and Peace being scum together while you just said that you read him as town during the entire game.

 

But not good. Defending Tom for his claim, which would have been a stupid claim if he had been scum. Maybe clever, maybe providing WIFOM-defence for a scum tactic. Makes some long posts where he does his utmost at seeming townish, but without much substance.

Maybe this and maybe that, and you again accuse me of being mafia without providing any examples that would support your opinion about me.
 

Generally, Clouds game here is "all style over substance". Especially now where he thinks he found someone to go after, he goes all hyper-Cloud, all over the place, claiming I'm "frozen" when I have stated I'm doing a re-read, which when confronted with he does a poor job squirming out of. Then goes back to being overly-confident hyper-omgz-Cloud.

I guess my playstyle can be seen as a little chaotic, but that is just how my mind works. There is a pattern behind it though, and in the end I think I do a good job with connecting all the dots.

 

Other: I'm struggling to find any scum-motivation for Hallias death. Sure she picked up her game and did a good job, but she neither hunted or cleared anyone enough for me to see the scum-team NK'ing her N1. Anyone has any more theories on that? Or is it just a random? I don't quite buy Tommys "Its for WIFOM"-comment, as it seems to have left people confused, not WIFOM'd.

Does it matter why the scum killed her at this stage of the game? It will only provide an excuse for the mafia to start talking about something pointless and distract the town from the situation at hand, like you are doing right now. Also, the very nature of WIFOM is to leave people confused after considering multiple explanations that are all viable.

Posted

Despo and Tommy.  You two need to coordinate your night actions.

 

1. Peace

6. Cloud

7. Alanna

8. Mish Nervositee

 

If Csarmi gets lynched.  One of you pick from 1 and 6, the other pick from 7 and 8 without telling us who you specifically picked.

 

Or something that so there can be a bit of wifom involved.

 

 

I agree with this plan of action, but do consider the likelihood of the second wolf holstering his NK from now on.

 

 

 

Vote Count 1.8

 

Despo (2) - Tommy, Csarmi

Mish (4) - GE, Cloud, Hallia, Despo

Hallia (1) - Mish

 

Not Voting: Peace, Alanna

 

5 to lynch.

 

From 7:33 PM until 10:10 PM EST (GMT-5), Mish was at L-1. That's 2 1/2 hours.

 

If she was town with 3 townies on her lynch, do you think she would have survived that time period?

 

Who would and would not be online during that time period to hammer her?

 

 

 

 

I don't think we can conclude much from the train on Mish. Looking back I actually think she was pretty safe sitting at L-1 with the cases that were running against her at the time.

 

Leaning town on Peace again.

 

Leaning town on Cloud overall after scanning the thread.

 

That would leave a Salami/Allana/Mish pool to choose from. Any arguments there, or am I clearing Cloud too easily?

 

My gut sense for Cloud is that he's trying too hard and making too much sense to be scum.

 

I actually don't think that I have been trying too hard in this game. I have actually been pretty lazy because I think we are about to wrap it up, heh >.> I didn't do a re-read or anything. If you want to see an example of me trying hard then you should read the Christmas game. Now THAT was a game where I devoted all my mafia skills to. I ended up writing 260 posts in the game thread, and next to that I was discussing mafia strategies with Darthe in our QT which ended up having around 400 posts.

 

As for this game I actually think that you were trying way too hard for you to be mafia during Day 1. Alanna has also done a lot of work by re-reading the game and post a stream of consciousness during Day 2. These two instances have helped me solidify my town reads on you two.

 

Actually, I would bet that scum were divided on the two trains...which means Cloud is scum along with Csarmi.  Typical scum play around here.

 

You are right that it's very typical around DM for the mafia team to divide themselves amongst multiple trains, but I don't think the same holds true when there are only two wolves. It's much more difficult to achieve a desired lynch then.

Posted

I wonder if it could be Peace and Cloud after all. Least I hope it is. If Alanna is acum, she can just hammer me.

 

With that said, Peace's isolation tactics is a good (albeit trivial) one. In fact, when Tommy posted his separation list at night, that's what I thought he was doing.

I'll try anyway.

 

As far as I can recall, the day one trains were mostly town vs town action. Which means maffiaz could prolly just sit back and watch. The question that I keep coming back to is the Mish train. I don't believe she could be hammered there. The train was too early. Any scummers hammering that would have gotten a deserved lunch.

 

Now from what I see its practically impossible to have both Mish and Cloud as town. I think Cloud there. I don't suppose scum worried much about Mish slipping away seeing as only town trains formed afterwards.

You don’t want to link Mish/Vos to me because you think I wouldn’t have put her on L-3 if I was her teammate, but you also said that she wouldn’t be hammered then because the one who did that would most likely be the next one to hang. So following this line of thought wouldn’t it be not so strange for me to vote for her anyway because I would think that she would remain safe? I mean you kept saying how you had a town read on Peace and how you agreed with the things that he has said, and yet you suspect him to be my teammate. Why aren’t you consider the possibility of Peace and Vos being mafia?

 

 

Cloud.

 

The thing that convinces me that he's scum is his scumslip yesterday evening.

 

Read the part where he said he wouldn't focus on VOs on day 2 cause he just replaced in.

 

That's incrediscummy cause its totally anti town in the first place but worst, he's setting up the mislynch for tomorrow.

How is that even a scumslip? I don’t think it’s even scummy because it allows the replacement to have a little breathing room to gather his thoughts without having to defend himself from attacks right out of the gate. It’s not like I dismissed him as possible scum, I just wanted to give him more time and focus on lynching Despo instead. This is just bad reasoning for suspecting me to be mafia? Do you have any other reasons or is this everything you have?

Posted

@Vos’ case:

I find it weird that he said that nothing sticks out in a way about Peace’s play this game. Everyone makes mistakes in games and so has Peace in my opinion. If you think he has been playing very townie then you should explain what made you come to this conclusion. Saying that he is level-headed, rational and made well-weighed statements isn’t cutting it, because those are traits that good scum players also exhibit.

 

I'm not ruling him out, by any means. When I step back, he reads to me like the most rational here. I take your point that he is a good player and can be playing a good mafia game

 

His reads on Tom and Salami seem very wishy washy to me as he keeps going back and forth between reading them both as scum and town, especially with his reads on Salami. I’m not a fan of that kind of play because it leaves a lot of wiggle room for scum to slip through.

 

I'm thinking out loud as I read through. I kept, and still do go back and forth on Tom and Salami. What you explains as wiggle room is trying to stay flexible not to overlook anyone.

 

Falls off the radar again, and when he comes back he seems much more interested in looking like he is writing long posts and looking pro-town than actively scumhunting.

I was busy catching up and giving my opinion on the things that were happening, but I also think that I did a decent job with scumhunting and townhunting. Also, I have a tendency to write long posts and I also believe it is the job of every townie to distinguish themselves as town because it puts the focus on the mafia instead.

 

Also makes some gross assumptions to support his theories (like that if Mish had a PR, and didn't claim at L-1 then the hammer would HAVE to be scum. Its very possible but still.)

I wasn’t the one who said that. I think it was Hallia?

 

I'm still not sure, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

Being very fond of criticizing others play as wish-washy (or whatever) while certainly being guilty of that himself.

You call me out for being wishy washy, and then later you accuse me of being scum because I make definite statements. These two accusations are in contrast to each other. It’s either one or the other, you can’t have it both ways.

 

I explained, SEVERAL TIMES, that I wrote while I was reading, and warned against contrasting or contradictory statements. It means that I first read your statement like this, then that. It's fine that you point it out but to try and point it out like you found gold just proves you either didn't read my post or looking for any excuse to paint me as scum.

 

Then carries on making assumptions to support definite statements, like when he cleares Peace as town, with a rational that builds upon a previous assumption (that Tom is town).

My reasoning for thinking that Peace was town wasn’t based around my town read on that Tom. You would know this if you actually read what I wrote instead of only tried to pick at every mistake you think I made.

 

 

Certainly building up a case, but puts it forward in a too sure way, seeming more interested in swaying town to thinking this and this than to put forward evidence.

If you make these kind of accusations against someone you should also be prepared to support them with evidence. So please provide examples where you think I haven’t used enough evidence in my cases and have relied on conjecture instead.

 

I'll get back to you on this one :)

 

Unsure if there is a motivation (buddying up to town Peace, clearing his scum-mate), trying too hard to look like a valuable town or just lazy play.

So who isn’t putting forward any evidence now? :laugh: You also seem to be unsure of the motivation behind my play here and yet you are voting for me right now which means that you think I’m scum. Also, you are contradicting yourself again by considering the possibility of me and Peace being scum together while you just said that you read him as town during the entire game.

 

Wow. If everyone would go back and look at my post, they can see I had a strike-through on "clearing his scum-mate". Which you removed. Which proves you are ready to manipulate the truth to paint me scum. That isn't very pro-town play is it? I'll even provide the link. Here. 

 

 

But not good. Defending Tom for his claim, which would have been a stupid claim if he had been scum. Maybe clever, maybe providing WIFOM-defence for a scum tactic. Makes some long posts where he does his utmost at seeming townish, but without much substance.

Maybe this and maybe that, and you again accuse me of being mafia without providing any examples that would support your opinion about me.

 

Generally, Clouds game here is "all style over substance". Especially now where he thinks he found someone to go after, he goes all hyper-Cloud, all over the place, claiming I'm "frozen" when I have stated I'm doing a re-read, which when confronted with he does a poor job squirming out of. Then goes back to being overly-confident hyper-omgz-Cloud.

I guess my playstyle can be seen as a little chaotic, but that is just how my mind works. There is a pattern behind it though, and in the end I think I do a good job with connecting all the dots.

 

Other: I'm struggling to find any scum-motivation for Hallias death. Sure she picked up her game and did a good job, but she neither hunted or cleared anyone enough for me to see the scum-team NK'ing her N1. Anyone has any more theories on that? Or is it just a random? I don't quite buy Tommys "Its for WIFOM"-comment, as it seems to have left people confused, not WIFOM'd.

Does it matter why the scum killed her at this stage of the game? It will only provide an excuse for the mafia to start talking about something pointless and distract the town from the situation at hand, like you are doing right now. Also, the very nature of WIFOM is to leave people confused after considering multiple explanations that are all viable.

 

It matters if there is a reason, and it was a thought it was worth investigating. But I can't find it either, so we'll leave it for now. I still think it's a point worth coming back to as more and more of the details of the game is revealed. But noted you prefer to bury it. 

 

 

Answers in green. I'll see if I can find more concrete examples for you. I didn't know you'd be my vote when I started the re-read or I would have provided them from the start. 

 

I mainly liked your defense though, it even read enough town that I was going to unvote and take a closer look at peaces play throughout (I'm pretty sure one of you are scum at least). But the fact that you bended the truth enough to remove my strike-through to make my post fit your defense is not how I envision town-play at all. I'll still re-read peaces contributions, but I still think you're scum. 

Posted

"I'm thinking out loud as I read through. I kept, and still do go back and forth on Tom and Salami. What you explains as wiggle room is trying to stay flexible not to overlook anyone."
 
I guess this is just a difference in our current ways of playing the game. I wouldn't attempt a "stream of consciousness" type of post myself because more often than not it will look scummy and people will start disregarding your opinion. It's not worth to sacrifice your credibility in games like that. Anyhow, I wouldn't have a problem with you going back and forth on for example Salami if you explained which posts made you change your mind and why. Here are the things that you said about Salami:
 


5. Csarmi - Hard to read, as its mainly short sentences and not complete cases or arguments. Might be trying to lie low in the terrain, but when the game picks up (p.16 →) he seems to be actively scumhunting and doing his job for town. Wary that when I'm at page 24, I have big blocks of text on all the other players but not him. Either he is really trying to keep his head down or just beeing lazy/busy/something. The thing is that when he posts it doesn't ping me as scum at all, but the fact that they are so rare and short does. Looking closely he leans town, but stepping back and looking at what he has done for Town, he leans scum. Also wary of his "Ah, fudge this"-mentality, because last game I was in I took that for scum arrogance, which lead to a mislynch and loss. I'll settle for null leaning scum.

You first say that he is hard to read because he uses mainly short sentences and doesn't expand his cases or arguments, which is a fair observation. Then you continue asking yourself what this might mean and you come to the conclusion that he could be trying to lie low in the terrain, but after p.16 you say that he has finally started actively scumhunting so your previous view on his play doesn't hold true anymore. Your analysis so far is all well and good, but then you start to say that he is either keeping his head down (aka he is scum) or is just lazy/busy/whatever because you haven't see enough of his play to warrant taking notes. I find this a little scummy because you are coming back to your previous conclusion about his play which is that he is trying to lie low in the terrain, but didn't you change your mind about this after you complimented him on his scumhunting? Continuing on you say that what he has said so far doesn't ping you at all, but his style of quick posting does. I also find this to be off because his style of posting shouldn't be an excuse for you to not take any notes if you think he has been doing a good job with scumhunting! You could just focus on the things he did say, but you refuse to do this. You then say that if you look closely he looks town, but stepping back and looking at what he did for the town he looks mafia. This doesn't make sense because you said yourself that you only found his writing style to be scummy, and yet you now think he is scummy because he hasn't done anything for the town while before this you said how he did a good job with scumhunting. 

 
I explained, SEVERAL TIMES, that I wrote while I was reading, and warned against contrasting or contradictory statements. It means that I first read your statement like this, then that. It's fine that you point it out but to try and point it out like you found gold just proves you either didn't read my post or looking for any excuse to paint me as scum.

 

Eh this is why attempting to do something like that isn't a good idea if you don't over-explain everything to death... You are protecting yourself from any possible attack againt your case by warning against contrasting and contradictionary statements which is ridiculous. It isn't my fault that you didn't provide examples that would have helped you explain why you changed your mind about things.
 
I'll get back to you on this one :)

 

Cool :)
 
Wow. If everyone would go back and look at my post, they can see I had a strike-through on "clearing his scum-mate". Which you removed. Which proves you are ready to manipulate the truth to paint me scum. That isn't very pro-town play is it? I'll even provide the link. Here. 

 

I know that you had a strike-through there, but I write my cases in Word before I copy them over to DM. During the copy-pasting process any strike-throughs/ italics / bolds/ etc get removed and I have to manually add them again. My problem was that even though you used a strike through you considered the possibility of me being scum together with Peace while you stated in your case that you found his entire play to be townie (otherwise you wouldn't have written it down in the first place). It isn't logical for a townie to be suspicious about someone and link them together with his scum read, and afterwards say that you haven't found anything scummy about him.

Posted

 

 

I wonder if it could be Peace and Cloud after all. Least I hope it is. If Alanna is acum, she can just hammer me.

 

I wanted to see if you had any more to say first.

 

FYI, I am around and will place a vote today, but I'm at work today and have A LOT to do, because we might be closed tomorrow for bad weather. So I may not be on much or at all until later this evening.

Posted

Ok, I (sadly) get where you are coming from. I looked over my reads, and I agree. I still think you are scummy and I just gave you an easy candidate here, so I'll take some self-critique on my post. I should have kept a note-sheet throughout the re-read and afterwards edited them so I could provide "definite", coherent reads on everyone. Duly noted for the future, and sorry to the rest of my team if I gave the mafia myself as an easy scapegoat here.

 

I still think you are overworking your case, trying too hard to sell it off to town so they'll take your bait. You criticize my way of presenting my re-read (in which I have now agreed to) but you still refuse to read my posts with that in mind. If you were town you would either dismiss my whole post as contradictory and call me scum, or you would try to understand where I was coming from, and then find holes. But you are not. Instead, you pick hole after hole, twisting them to lay it on thickly enough so you think you can convince town. I striked through the comment on peace to show that "This is what I thought. It clearly doesn't apply longer". So even if you then copied it into Word you'd see it was there, but still decided to make a big deal out of it. Why? I still can't see why you would need to twist my words like that if you were genuinely town and really thought I was scum. 

 

This doesn't make sense because you said yourself that you only found his writing style to be scummy, and yet you now think he is scummy because he hasn't done anything for the town while before this you said how he did a good job with scumhunting. [on my read of csarmi]   

 

 Now you are twisting my words again, or completely misunderstanding what I wrote. I stated that when I read his posts, it pings me as town, but stepping back and looking at the effort he has made in the game, he pings me as scum. I never said his writing style was scummy. Maybe play style, but not writing style. Not sure how you arrived at that. 

 

My problem was that even though you used a strike through you considered the possibility of me being scum together with Peace while you stated in your case that you found his entire play to be townie (otherwise you wouldn't have written it down in the first place)

 

 

I wrote in my case on Peace that I didn't have a read at all until late game. It would be folly to dismiss the idea of you two being scum together because I didn't have a clear read on him yet. 

 

Fun fact: Vos means fox in Dutch.

 

 
Well, I am foxy! 
Posted

You criticize my way of presenting my re-read (in which I have now agreed to) but you still refuse to read my posts with that in mind. If you were town you would either dismiss my whole post as contradictory and call me scum, or you would try to understand where I was coming from, and then find holes. But you are not. Instead, you pick hole after hole, twisting them to lay it on thickly enough so you think you can convince town.

I read your case with only the words in mind that you wrote down, which in my opinion was contradictionary and full of holes. I have explained why I think you are scum and I plan on voting for you tomorrow. You can't expect me to believe your excuse and read your post from a point of view that would prevent me from analyzing what you wrote down. And please point out where you think I have twisted your words, because just calling me out on doing it isn't going to help you.

 

I striked through the comment on peace to show that "This is what I thought. It clearly doesn't apply longer". So even if you then copied it into Word you'd see it was there, but still decided to make a big deal out of it. Why? I still can't see why you would need to twist my words like that if you were genuinely town and really thought I was scum.

I did see that you had striked it out, but my issue with that comment was that you had no reason to write it down in the first place after you told us that the only thing you had written down about Peace during your entire re-read was "Came in late and short because of RL. Fair enough.". You must have had a reason to suspect him to be my teammate even if it was just for a moment, and yet you didn't mention this anywhere else. You have lied about this because you now say that you found him scummy, but not anymore.

 

 

Now you are twisting my words again, or completely misunderstanding what I wrote. I stated that when I read his posts, it pings me as town, but stepping back and looking at the effort he has made in the game, he pings me as scum. I never said his writing style was scummy. Maybe play style, but not writing style. Not sure how you arrived at that.

You said that you found it scummy how he only wrote short posts. I see that as a writing style. When you focus on his posts you should notice his writing style first, which you found to be scummy and yet later on stated that you read it as town. The thing that makes it obvious that you were just making your reads about Salami up however is that you said he was doing a good job with scumhunting, and how that gave you a town read on him, but then you do a 180 and say how his efforts in the game (scumhunting) gave you a scum read. I'm only repeating what I said in my previous post. I haven't been twisting your statements anywhere.

 

I wrote in my case on Peace that I didn't have a read at all until late game. It would be folly to dismiss the idea of you two being scum together because I didn't have a clear read on him yet.

No, you didn't say this anywhere. Stop lying.

 

Here is your entire case on Peace:

 

1. Peace - Came in late and short because of RL. Fair enough.

 

That was everything I had written down after doing the entire re-read. He doesn't stick out in any way. Like Tommy pointed out, very clean. BUT looking back he is level-headed, rational, makes well-weighed statements and comes across as the Town Elder (no offence, haha). Leaning Town!

Posted

Vote Count 2.11

 

Csarmi (3) - Peace, Cloud, Despo

Cloud (2) - Vos, Csarmi

 

Not Voting: Alanna, Tommy

 

4 to lynch. DL is Tuesday.

Posted

 

I wrote in my case on Peace that I didn't have a read at all until late game. It would be folly to dismiss the idea of you two being scum together because I didn't have a clear read on him yet.

No, you didn't say this anywhere. Stop lying.

 

Here is your entire case on Peace:

 

1. Peace - Came in late and short because of RL. Fair enough.

 

That was everything I had written down after doing the entire re-read. He doesn't stick out in any way. Like Tommy pointed out, very clean. BUT looking back he is level-headed, rational, makes well-weighed statements and comes across as the Town Elder (no offence, haha). Leaning Town!

 

 

When I write that I hadn't noted anything about him throughout the read, it's pretty obvious I wasn't leaning either way, isn't it? You claim I'm lying, I claim you are obviously unable to put 2 and 2 together, which is against the impression I have of you as a player. So I still think you are twisting words, and I still think thats scum-play. 

 

Other than that, I think us two bickering over wording and terminology is just distracting  the game and doing actual scum-hunting. We have both explained ourselves and as I see it - are left chasing each others tails. Which isn't helping the game. So I suggest we move on and hunt scum. If you feel differently let me know and I will reply to your other accusations. 

Posted

Looking at the trains right now, if you take away Cloud and CS's self-pres votes on eachother, they're me and Peace vs Vos and Alanna. I like our train a lot better because of this. Thinking it's either CSarmi/Vos or CSarmi/Alanna.

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