Just a little Respect!

[Guest Barmacral]

IMO I think Cadsuane is just another different type of teacher in a shortish line of teachers for rand.

 

Asmodean taught Rand the Power, Moiraine taught Rand his destiny and the skills he'd need to fulfill it. Hurin and Loial (TGH) taught Rand how to be a leader, Min Elayne and Avi taught him love, and now Cadsuane has to teach him how to be a human being again.

[Kalibur]

Wow alot of you dont understand Cadsuane at all, she goes way back with Moiraine each knew the role they must play to get where they are today. Cadsuane cleary stated at one time she has to be at the last battle it her destiny as a woman of the green to be there. Green Ajah is a battle ajah and i so cant wait to see her in last battle with six asha'man warders. It gona be a epic battle one of legends what better place for a green ajah to be.

 

 

(quote from winters heart chapter 25 page 404)

"Verin, he can do whatever his heart desires, anything at all, as long as he lives to reach Tarmon Gai'don. And as long as i can be at his side long enough to make him learn how to laugh again, and cry."

[Safia al-Maaz]

IMO I think Cadsuane is just another different type of teacher in a shortish line of teachers for rand.

 

Asmodean taught Rand the Power' date=' Moiraine taught Rand his destiny and the skills he'd need to fulfill it. Hurin and Loial (TGH) taught Rand how to be a leader, Min Elayne and Avi taught him love, and now Cadsuane has to teach him how to be a human being again.[/quote']

 

I never thought of it that way. I like that idea :)

[Guest Fire Lord]

Luckers wrote:

Quote:

If she goes around slapping and switching him(with the Power) in front of other Aes Sedai, how does that do him any good? Were I an Aes Sedai, seeing Rand treated so would lower my esteem for him rather dramatically. And from there, you expect him to try to regain that lost respect in their eyes. See the irony?

 

 

Why should she care if they respect him? She cares about wether he is a good leader for the light, and what she is doing IS important to fixing whats wrong with his nature. By not allowing him to simply throw his weight around and bully his way through everything, she is teaching him both control and the ability to gain what he needs through more subtle methods. What she is doing is incredibly important for him.

 

Also... how was anything you said ironic?

 

Why should she care whether they respect him? I'll tell you why.

Aes Sedai wield enormous political powers. I get the feeling that if they don't agree with something, it'll not come to be. Also don't forget that the Aes Sedai will be at Tarmon Gai'don, and Rand being the overall leader of the Light, they should follow him.

 

How can you follow a leader you don't respect? Because I don't think any of the Aes Sedai with him respects him, and if there is one thing I think true, Cadsuane's methods have greatly contributed to that. They will have their own ideas of what's to be done, and to steer them away from that will be rather difficult.

 

You say Rand should not be allowed to bully his way through things, and I agree. But something most of you seem to forget: Cadsuane is human, she makes mistakes too. Why do you insist on saying her methods are correct? If anything, she bullies her way around too, using that she is Cadsuane. How you fail to see that is wrong, and yet you move on to condemn Rand, I don't know.

 

And I don't think you get my drill. When Rand balefires that Mashadar-like thing, she stalks up to him, slaps him, and then tells him not to use that again.

 

Balefire is a weapon not to be trifled with, I agree.

But for all she knew, he could have used it a hundred times, or it could have been his first try at it. But that's not where the problem lies.

 

What kept her from going to stand up in front of him, look at him sternly and tell him not to use it again? What justifies the slap in that situation? Because she thought he would not listen? Ah, we're in trouble, if a woman of such power as Cadsuane resorts to using her hand instead of other methods...

And you call that subtle...

 

Quote:

An Aes Sedai who has gained the shawl today will be expecting you to bow and scrap before her and you will. How has she earned that respect you're giving her in your eyes? Is it so difficult to expect that Rand should get at least as much?

 

 

I'm sorry... is your argument that Rand deserves respect because Aes Sedai get it when they dont deserve it?

 

Strange.

 

No, my argument is simply that, no matter a person's standing, they should get respect because they are human beings, to use that, since you don't seem to think Rand is a man.

 

If a man is branded with the Dragon Reborn title, I would think it's not for naught... Therefore I would approach him rather neutrally, until I make up my own mind, because, same as you, I don't give a damn about fancy titles.

 

I never actually meant that Aes Sedai don't deserve respect. Some of them do, Cadsuane among others, others just don't. I was refering to the generalization their name implies.

 

But Rand has earned that respect. Or you don't think so? Well, you'd not be the first. He has cleansed the Source, but who seems to care? Logain thinks the Creator made a gesture of good will...

 

Well firstly she hasn't made any attempt to influence his plans for Tarmon Gai'don, or anything else for that matter. She hasn't tried to manipulate him or 'use him until his ears fall off'. When he's asked her advice, she's given it, and when he's needed her help, she's given that too. With no attempt to try and take over, or subvert his plans or anything else. So im not really sure where all this using him for Aes Sedai purposes things comes from.

 

Please go read a certain chapter in CoT where he summons her. She makes a comment to herself that he is wearing a black coat much like the Asha'man's, and, having invested much in him, she decides to let that go. (Any errors here are mine, I can't recall well the scene).

 

That's just an aspect of what she thinks about him. If she doesn't have in mind to direct him where she thinks he ought to be going, why on earth would she care about what he is wearing? I'll admit that it doesn't say much, but I think she has no business in his private life.

 

Rand does keep things from her, and he has his own reasons for doing that. Badgering people around him (Min) to spit it out is rather meddling.

 

Why does Cadsuane do what she does? For the Tower? The world? Herself? Rand? Your choice.

 

As for how she knows how to help him... she has percieved a fault in him, and since no one else was paying attention to it, she decided to address it. It's as simple as that.

 

Not so simple, I'm no psychiatrist, but I would think there are other methods that would be more successful to correct him.

 

And hey, the irony I meant was, due to their treatment of him, Aes Sedai should be the ones vying for his respect, but he is the one supposed to be trying to regain his respect. See it now?

[Zardi]

If she doesn't have in mind to direct him where she thinks he ought to be going, why on earth would she care about what he is wearing? I'll admit that it doesn't say much, but I think she has no business in his private life.

Yes...which is why she didn't say anything. She knows she needs to pick her battles. (Why she even mentioned it to herself, though, I don't know.)

 

But Rand has earned that respect. Or you don't think so? Well, you'd not be the first. He has cleansed the Source, but who seems to care? Logain thinks the Creator made a gesture of good will...

Rand does deserve respect for what he's done. However, he also needs people to respect him (not just his actions) and he isn't going to get that by having tantrums. It is understandable that he gets angry with the fools around him, but he needs to learn to deal with it without screaming and throwing things.

 

Why should she care whether they respect him? I'll tell you why.

Aes Sedai wield enormous political powers. I get the feeling that if they don't agree with something, it'll not come to be. Also don't forget that the Aes Sedai will be at Tarmon Gai'don, and Rand being the overall leader of the Light, they should follow him.

See my previous comment above. She does want people to respect Rand, but they aren't going to unless he learns a better way to deal with his anger.

 

How can you follow a leader you don't respect? Because I don't think any of the Aes Sedai with him respects him, and if there is one thing I think true, Cadsuane's methods have greatly contributed to that. They will have their own ideas of what's to be done, and to steer them away from that will be rather difficult.

See, you agree that no one will follow a leader they don't respect, but you don't think that Rand's tantrums will prevent people from respecting him?

 

And hey, the irony I meant was, due to their treatment of him, Aes Sedai should be the ones vying for his respect, but he is the one supposed to be trying to regain his respect. See it now?

I'm not entirely sure what that says ;) Do you mean that Aes Sedai should also be working to gain his respect? For some of them, you are right. Those who mistreated him, manipulated him, and tortured him should be doing their damnedest to make amends. Some have attempted to do so by swearing fealty. However, either way, that is not Cadsuane's concern. She is trying to get Rand mentally ready for Tarmon Gaidon, and she has limited time to do so. Why waste her time on trying to correct Aes Sedai behavior?

[Mercer]

Rand does deserve respect for what he's done. However' date=' he also needs people to respect [i']him[/i] (not just his actions) and he isn't going to get that by having tantrums. It is understandable that he gets angry with the fools around him, but he needs to learn to deal with it without screaming and throwing things.

Which tantrum is it that has shown the need for her intervention? The only one I can think of is in his rooms, smashing the mirrors and whatnot...and I doubt the Aiel give a damn about that. As for the Stone, when giving whatshisface the crown of Tear, I don't think it mattered there...the nobles there were fools anyway, who will always oppose Rand behind his back, or will die at Rand's first convenience. Rand was going to crown him anyway (He knew about Min's viewing) and getting angry with a few fools who's mind will not be swayed either way is hardly a tantrum.

 

Other than those...what Tantrums has he had in public view of his followers that have in any way affected the respect he commands? How does her smacking him in public help any of that?

[RobertAlexWillis]

How does her smacking him in public help any of that?

 

If you're talking about when she smacked him for using balefire, then it was hardly "in public". There were exactly 8 people present: Herself, Rand, Min, Samitsu, Niande, Darlin Sisnera, Toram Riatin, and Caraline Damodred. Not exactly public. And Rand was using a weapon that could unravel reality, when other things would do. A smack to get his attention (which did zero damage to him physcially) is not out of place.

 

What should she have done, say "You know, Rand, thats kind of dangerous." He would have paid zero attention to that.

 

Rand is making himself as harsh as possible, to try to spare himself from feeling the pain of what he has to do. It won't work, of course, but it means that until he is willing to accept the pain of his existence, anyone who wishes to communicate with him at all is going to have to be as harsh as possible to even make him pay attention.

 

Again, I call everyone's attention to Cadsuane's way of treating him while he was unconscious (same chapter where she slapped him, ACoS chapter 36 ). She was almost tender. She has a good idea what he's going through, and she's not treating him the way she does for kicks, its because its the only way anyone can budge him at all.

[Guest Fire Lord]

Zardi wrote:

 

Rand does deserve respect for what he's done. However, he also needs people to respect him (not just his actions) and he isn't going to get that by having tantrums. It is understandable that he gets angry with the fools around him, but he needs to learn to deal with it without screaming and throwing things.

 

I admit I was so focused on showing that Rand has earned respect by his action I completely overlooked that he need it just by himself, not only his actions.

 

But I fail to see what you mean by screaming and throwing things and you're simplifying things, when it's rather complex. Where and when does Rand get mad and do that? I did pick up a dictionary, and it has the word tantrum as a short burst of anger and bad behavior because you cannot get what you want.

 

Rand did get angry with those Nobles in KoD, but no way did he get mad and throw things.

 

Look at it this way. Why is Rand angry in the first place? I've said it before, he falls, and the world falls as well. He is under enormous stress, and I believe it's understandable that he gets frustrated when people he expects to perform well instead decide to go on with their petty issues. He doesn't do what he does for himself. He expects to die, but he at least want to do well a difficult job that none else can.

 

Frustration is a human emotion, you've probably experienced it. I've, and believe me, it has to get out of your system or it'll corrupt it. But I guess everyone has his own way to deal things, and admitedly it's not always the best method.

 

But from there to saying that Rand behaves like a petulant child, I don't get it all. If he was building a palace for himself and threw a fit because marble stones cost too much, I would understand. But here the world depends on every move he makes. He has plans those fool nobles don't know anything about, and they could go awry because of just any small change those lords and ladies could make because they think they know better.

 

RobertAlexWillis wrote:

 

 

What should she have done, say "You know, Rand, thats kind of dangerous." He would have paid zero attention to that.

 

 

Ah, but you're assuming Cadsuane knew as much as you do about Rand. She had already met him, knew he was strong-willed and stubborn, but she didn't know enough about him to conclude that he would simply not listen to her. She is Aes Sedai after all, and Cadsuane to boot. And even if she is a good judge of character, a few meetings are not something to go by as to conclude that he'll simply ignore her as if she is talking to the air.

 

Later on is when she notes that most people know she has a sharp tongue just after meeting her, but that Rand often needed to be reminded of that. In the light of this, I could understand her slapping him to get his attention.

 

 

If you're talking about when she smacked him for using balefire, then it was hardly "in public". There were exactly 8 people present: Herself, Rand, Min, Samitsu, Niande, Darlin Sisnera, Toram Riatin, and Caraline Damodred. Not exactly public. And Rand was using a weapon that could unravel reality, when other things would do. A smack to get his attention (which did zero damage to him physcially) is not out of place.

 

 

I was actually talking about Cadsuane's methods in general, that and when she uses the Power on him in KoD.

 

You seem to think there is no chance of that getting out. I'm not so convinced. Those people are human, and they talk. All it would take is one of them saying something in the wrong ear. Aes Sedai are strong women, but they gossip as well.

 

Rumor is what I mean here. Imagine something like 'The Dragon Reborn's Aes Sedai advisor beats the crap out of him' floating around. You may say that Rand already has enough rumors circuling around about him, and that one more will not do any harm. I think there is a limit, and that one could be the one that tips things. Like they say where there is smoke there is fire. Not all rumors have founding, but that's not what I'm concerned about.

 

Look at Gawyn, convinced Rand killed his mother, and burning with revenge. Imagine any of the borderlands rulers hearing something like that. He spent considerable time and effort showing the Aiel chiefs that he was not a White Tower puppet. They are loyal to him, but were they to hear something like that, would they sit quietly? They have mouths, and I tend to think they would use them.

 

Again, there is a 50% chance that it may never get out, but it could happen the other way round as well.

 

Consider two scenarios where, as a ruler, you have to treat with the Dragon Reborn. In the first, there is no rumor, and in the second, there is. Would you react to him the same way? Perhaps you would, but hey, not everyone is like you, and there are people out there willing to seize on any weakness.

 

 

 

Again, I call everyone's attention to Cadsuane's way of treating him while he was unconscious (same chapter where she slapped him, ACoS chapter 36 ). She was almost tender. She has a good idea what he's going through, and she's not treating him the way she does for kicks, its because its the only way anyone can budge him at all.

 

 

Not knowing what her plans are-apart from Min's vague prophecies, which, if anything, complicates figuring out her plans-you can't possibly tell why she does what she does. She is human, after all, and I don't think tendernes is out of place, but it could be that whatever she was after called for tenderness at that moment. I think she is capable of doing that, especially with Min watching.

 

As for her having a good idea of what he is going through, how could she? She has dealt with men under the taint, but that is not what is ailing Rand. Rand has been going through that for more than a year, she barges in, decide she knows what he is suffering from, just like that? Experience, I hear you say? Ah, but the Dragon Reborn is a unique individual, I would not try to draw any parallel between him and any other person, and I'd go carefully as well in applying my experience on him.

 

And that being the only way, how do you know? Whatever else has she tried and failed? The moment she appeared she rushed in as if she owned the place, proceeded to insult him and you remember the rest. Please show me any other method she attempted before settling for that one.

 

She has been with him for a few months, but what success has she to show? Manners? So he is polite, but I think he always was, just that he saw that politeness will not always get him where he wants to go. Sometimes people could see politeness as softness. And Rand has never been the one to curse every other sentence, that's Mat. But he stil does curse, and talks angrily to people. I see no noticeable change in him. If this is the only method that can get through him, where are the results? Talking to her about his plans? That's what an advisor is there for, and Rand knows she does have experience. Does he confide in her? Do Min's world actually state that Cadsuane will succeed?

 

So, the results I'm talking about are, does his mental state show any respite?

 

In my opinion, Rand has never needed to be taught manners. He is the Dragon Reborn, fated to break the world. That's what almost everyone-noble or peasant-retains in memory about the Dragon Reborn. He is not seen as less than a monster that should be put to death if possible.

 

I do think Rand saw that no matter how polite he was, or no matter how much he tried to manipulate people, they would still hate him and scheme behind his back. Therefore he set manners and civility aside and decided to deal with people-those that see him as a rabid lion, or simply have in mind to use him-in the way he saw that they would respond to, and that would get him the quickest results: fear, and shouldering his way around.

 

Not simply because he is the Dragon Reborn, power-drunk and everyone has to bow to everyone of his whims. Nah. He is too intelligent to let himself be power-drunk.

 

He is a stressed up man, it's more that 'throwing tantrums', try to understand that.

[Guest Barmacral]

In regards to throwing things, he does so several times through the series. He throws something right after he meets Cadsuane for the first time, he actually throw's Perrin across the room once, and so on...

[RobertAlexWillis]

Ah, but you're assuming Cadsuane knew as much as you do about Rand. She had already met him, knew he was strong-willed and stubborn, but she didn't know enough about him to conclude that he would simply not listen to her. She is Aes Sedai after all, and Cadsuane to boot. And even if she is a good judge of character, a few meetings are not something to go by as to conclude that he'll simply ignore her as if she is talking to the air.

 

I'm assuming that Cadsuane knows strong willed stubborn young men, yes. I don't think thats an unwarranted assumption. She knows what it takes to wrestle saidin from long observation. And she had been grilling everyone she could get her hands on about him. All she was doing was getting his attention. I mean really, he didn't even say "ow". People blow that slap incredibly out of proportion.

 

You seem to think there is no chance of that getting out. I'm not so convinced. Those people are human, and they talk. All it would take is one of them saying something in the wrong ear. Aes Sedai are strong women, but they gossip as well.

 

None of those people had any reason to tell anyone, and even if they did, it would be one rumor among a thousand. You're telling me that she would risk him indiscriminately using a weapon that can unravel the Pattern, rather than risk the miniscule chance that someone might hear a rumor than an Aes Sedai had smacked him? When thousands of people already knew he had been captured and beaten daily by Aes Sedai? Please ... thats absurd.

 

As for her having a good idea of what he is going through, how could she?

 

She has been observing PEOPLE for several hundred years.

 

Ah, but the Dragon Reborn is a unique individual, I would not try to draw any parallel between him and any other person, and I'd go carefully as well in applying my experience on him.

 

He is unique in what he must do, but he is not an alien. He is still human, and he still acts like a young human male.

 

Not knowing what her plans are-apart from Min's vague prophecies, which, if anything, complicates figuring out her plans-you can't possibly tell why she does what she does.

 

Then lets judge her by her actions. When Rand gets slashed by Padan Fain, she keeps him alive long enough to get to people who can Heal him. When he gets caught in Far Madding, she breaks the political power of someone she respects to get him out. When he embarks on a plan to cleanse the taint that every other Aes Sedai present thought was far too dangerous to try, she organizes a defense that fights off multiple Forsaken. And when he gets drawn into a trap by Semirhage, she uses her abilities and equipment to spring it and capture Semi.

 

Yes ... what a horrible ally. (Sarcasm there people ... great amounts of sarcasm).

 

People are just mad because they like Rand and Cadsuane doesn't suck up to him. Well guess what? Thats GOOD for Rand. He trusts now, and frankly, his trust goes beyond just allowing her to "teach him something". On the two major initiatives he's wanted to accomplish since she joined him, she has given him her full support. Which of his plans, exactly, has she tried to "force" him to change?

 

This whole thing is silly. Even Rand is not as offended as you people are.

[Zardi]

Rand did get angry with those Nobles in KoD, but no way did he get mad and throw things.

Did he not break a chair in that very scene? As someone already pointed out, he even threw Perrin across a room once. Rand yells and screams any time something doesn't go his way with regard to his plans, and while some adults in the real world and in WoT do this to deal with anger, it is not mature or effective to do so. Egwene (much as I do not like her) realized this in book 5, and stopped screaming at Rand for every little thing. Notice that he had a much harder time arguing with her after that. Now it's time for Rand to learn.

 

Look at it this way. Why is Rand angry in the first place? I've said it before, he falls, and the world falls as well. He is under enormous stress, and I believe it's understandable that he gets frustrated when people he expects to perform well instead decide to go on with their petty issues. He doesn't do what he does for himself. He expects to die, but he at least want to do well a difficult job that none else can.

I've already said in previous posts that Rand's behavior is understandable. That does not make it acceptable. If he could make those rulers respect him and feel loyal to him, they would not go against his plans. As it is now, they fear him and they hate him, so they will do whatever they want whenever they think they can get away with it. For Rand's own good, that has to stop. He has to learn to behave in a way that garners respect, not fear.

 

Look at Gawyn, convinced Rand killed his mother, and burning with revenge. Imagine any of the borderlands rulers hearing something like that. He spent considerable time and effort showing the Aiel chiefs that he was not a White Tower puppet. They are loyal to him, but were they to hear something like that, would they sit quietly? They have mouths, and I tend to think they would use them.

Hearing a rumor that someone killed your mother is different than hearing a rumor that someone got slapped by an Aes Sedai. Why would the Borderlanders care? They have cause to be angry with Rand for ignoring them all of this time (though I understand Rand's reasons), but I don't see why a rumor about an Aes Sedai slapping Rand is going to have an effect on them. Especially not if they've heard about the kidnapping already.

 

As for the Aiel, Sorilea and Cadsuane are in cahoots on this mending of Rand's behavior. I don't see what the problem is.

 

Not knowing what her plans are-apart from Min's vague prophecies, which, if anything, complicates figuring out her plans-you can't possibly tell why she does what she does.

She's had point of view chapters. What more do you need?

 

So he is polite, but I think he always was, just that he saw that politeness will not always get him where he wants to go. Sometimes people could see politeness as softness.

He stopped being polite fairly early on in the series. No one is going to interpret politeness as softness, because they are not the same thing. Firmness and politeness can go together just as easily as softness and politeness. Rand can and should still lead and command, but he needs to do so without throwing a fit if something goes wrong. He used to be able to do that.

 

In my opinion, Rand has never needed to be taught manners. He is the Dragon Reborn, fated to break the world. That's what almost everyone-noble or peasant-retains in memory about the Dragon Reborn. He is not seen as less than a monster that should be put to death if possible.

No, that's exactly why he does need to be taught manners. If those nobles could come to respect Rand for his abilities and strength of character, and develop loyalty for him, then they wouldn't see him as a monster to be put to death as soon as possible. However, Rand will never get that respect (and certainly not the loyalty) by screaming to get what he wants. Feeling anger is acceptable...dealing with it childishly is not.

 

He is a stressed up man, it's more that 'throwing tantrums', try to understand that.

Please don't tell me to "try to understand that." I've defended Rand numerous times on these forums, and I understand why he is the way he is (search this thread...it's in here). However, that doesn't mean it is good for Rand to remain the way he is. What Cadsuane is trying to do for him is for his own good.

[RobertAlexWillis]

As someone already pointed out, he even threw Perrin across a room once.

 

As a side note, that episode was staged beforehand, so that people would think he was angrily dismissing Perrin, when he was in fact sending Perrin on a mission to get Masema. So, it doesn't really count. Rand shoved Perrin a little harder than Perrin thought he would, thats all.

 

He spent considerable time and effort showing the Aiel chiefs that he was not a White Tower puppet. They are loyal to him, but were they to hear something like that, would they sit quietly?

 

Considering that he already convinced them of his independence when they knew for a fact that he was captured and beaten daily, I seriously, seriously doubt that a rumor of being slapped once by an Aes Sedai, even in the unlikely event it got back to the Aiel (or the Borderlanders for that matter), would have any effect at all. The Aiel would probably think it was a fine joke.

[Mercer]

How does her smacking him in public help any of that?

 

If you're talking about when she smacked him for using balefire' date=' then it was hardly "in public". There were exactly 8 people present: Herself, Rand, Min, Samitsu, Niande, Darlin Sisnera, Toram Riatin, and Caraline Damodred. Not exactly public. And Rand was using a weapon that could unravel reality, when other things would do. A smack to get his attention (which did zero damage to him physcially) is not out of place.

 

What should she have done, say "You know, Rand, thats kind of dangerous." He would have paid zero attention to that.

 

Rand is making himself as harsh as possible, to try to spare himself from feeling the pain of what he has to do. It won't work, of course, but it means that until he is willing to accept the pain of his existence, anyone who wishes to communicate with him at all is going to have to be as harsh as possible to even make him pay attention.

 

Again, I call everyone's attention to Cadsuane's way of treating him while he was unconscious (same chapter where she slapped him, ACoS chapter 36 ). She was almost tender. She has a good idea what he's going through, and she's not treating him the way she does for kicks, its because its the only way anyone can budge him at all.[/quote']

 

I meant the using the power on him when in Tear, but I see your point on the severity of what he was doing (though again, I've yet to see the dire consequences of using Balefire in localized amounts...as it hasn't happened in the books to date) and her response in that case. My main beef with that would be that Cadsuane, in all her glory and years of wisdom (as many on this board seem to love, as many as hate her perhaps), is completely and utterly wrong in saying "Never Balefire!". It is the only proven way to truly kill a Forsaken, and Darkhounds. If it's a choice between facing my same enemy in differeny forms over and over again, not to mention having killer rabid dogs of pure evil trying to kill me, and dying, I think I'd take the former. Simply one of the many things about Cadsuane that annoys me, that over-reaction.

[Mat is the Boss]

It is the only proven way to truly kill a Forsaken, and Darkhounds.

Perrin killed a Darkhound with three arrows when running from Illian, and Lan killed one in Illian before leaving. The Darkhounds that attacked Rand in Rhuidean may have been "improved" by the DO, just as Shaidar Haran is an "upgraded" Myrdraal.

 

And noone but the Forsaken knows that the DO can bring a Forsaken back from death.

 

Rumor is what I mean here. Imagine something like 'The Dragon Reborn's Aes Sedai advisor beats the crap out of him' floating around. You may say that Rand already has enough rumors circuling around about him, and that one more will not do any harm. I think there is a limit, and that one could be the one that tips things. Like they say where there is smoke there is fire. Not all rumors have founding, but that's not what I'm concerned about.

 

Rumors that Rand destroyed half of the Sun Palace in anger, or that he kills the noble that oppose him is worse then a rumor that an Aes Sedai tries to push him around. Everyone that Aes Sedai tries that with everyone, it would make people assosiate with him. And she only does that when he acts like a fool. Those present when he is punished by Cadsuane, where also present when Rand shouts or thows things around. Rather then spreding the tale of an unbalanced man, that is likely to kill you if you don`t do as he says, they spread the tale of an Aes Sedai that isn`t afraid of the Dragon Reborn.

[Luckers]

Aes Sedai wield enormous political powers. I get the feeling that if they don't agree with something, it'll not come to be. Also don't forget that the Aes Sedai will be at Tarmon Gai'don, and Rand being the overall leader of the Light, they should follow him.

 

In theory. In reality it won't happen. Aes sedai are too stupid, and Rand has too much unfounded respect for them. It is through Egwene and Rand's ability to deal with each other that an alliance will be struck. He will deal with her, and she with them.

 

And delusions of Aes Sedai power have been fading through the last 5 books. Just look at what happened with Elaida's edicts.

 

But what does that have to do with Cadsuane caring? The Aes Sedai around them are either already in Rand's pocket, or they don't follow him at all. And neither group would pay much attention to Cadsuane making him look a fool when she does the exact same to them when they act out.

 

How can you follow a leader you don't respect? Because I don't think any of the Aes Sedai with him respects him, and if there is one thing I think true, Cadsuane's methods have greatly contributed to that. They will have their own ideas of what's to be done, and to steer them away from that will be rather difficult.

 

Well your wrong in that. A) Cadsuane's methods are reactive to how he is behaving. When he acts a child, she treats him as a child... any loss of respect is his. Which is exactly what she is trying to teach him, because better he learn such things now then later. And the Aes Sedai with him are either sworn to him, and yes, respect him... Merana's actions show that... or they arn't, and never have.

 

I still see no reason Cadsuane should care anyway. Her stated goal is helping rand deal with his personal issues, not pandering to his ego in front of the children he surrounds himself with.

 

You say Rand should not be allowed to bully his way through things, and I agree. But something most of you seem to forget: Cadsuane is human, she makes mistakes too. Why do you insist on saying her methods are correct? If anything, she bullies her way around too, using that she is Cadsuane. How you fail to see that is wrong, and yet you move on to condemn Rand, I don't know

 

I say her methods are correct because, quite simply, she is doing exactly what i would do in the same situation. Rand acts like a child when he doesn't get his way, and has neither the self-awareness nor the self-control he'll need... just look at the way he reacts to Logain.

 

And I don't think you get my drill. When Rand balefires that Mashadar-like thing, she stalks up to him, slaps him, and then tells him not to use that again.

 

Balefire is a weapon not to be trifled with, I agree.

But for all she knew, he could have used it a hundred times, or it could have been his first try at it. But that's not where the problem lies.

 

What kept her from going to stand up in front of him, look at him sternly and tell him not to use it again? What justifies the slap in that situation? Because she thought he would not listen? Ah, we're in trouble, if a woman of such power as Cadsuane resorts to using her hand instead of other methods...

And you call that subtle...

 

Well, concidering since then we have seen him think twice about using balefire specifically for that slap, and yet Moiraine's stern lecture had no effect, i'd say Cadsuane had to right of it. She reads situations and gears her response to appropriately fit the person, and so far it always has. Everything she does is rationally thought out, including that slap. Rand has no control.

 

And no, i never called that subtle.

 

No, my argument is simply that, no matter a person's standing, they should get respect because they are human beings, to use that, since you don't seem to think Rand is a man

 

There is a basic respect to be offered to human beings. Indeed, i would say Cadsuane understands this better then anyone--she IS capable of ignoring it at need, as is shown by her treatment of Aleis--but that is not what she is doing with Rand. Those innate rights do not include the right to have everyone do your bidding whenever you throw a temper tantrum. Nor does it include the right to not be called an idiot when you are acting like an idiot. Nothing Rand has done includes those rights.

 

I never actually meant that Aes Sedai don't deserve respect. Some of them do, Cadsuane among others, others just don't. I was refering to the generalization their name implies.

 

Which is something i dont disagree with.

 

But Rand has earned that respect. Or you don't think so? Well, you'd not be the first. He has cleansed the Source, but who seems to care? Logain thinks the Creator made a gesture of good will...

 

Rand deserves respect for the things he has achieved, as well as for his stated goals, and you can be sure that Cadsuane knows that. At the same time, however, that respect does not give him the right to act like a child. Everyone else was ignoring it simply because of who Rand was... the whole Dragon Reborn thing. And because they are either Rands friends, or his cronies, or his enemies.

 

Cadsuane specifically kept herself from being any of those things. What she does is intentionally addressing an issue that MUST be addressed, and to do that she can be neither his friend, nor overly nice.

 

Despite that, she HAS been there for him. She has never tried to subvert him, never tried to manipulate him. She has given him her advice, and offered him her direct aid when he needed it... at times sacrificing other things, such as Aleis, in his favour.

 

Cadsuane is probably his greatest ally at the moment because she owes him nothing, not even the debt owed him for saving the world, for she has decried that debt. It puts her in an abstract position to achieve a job that needs to be done.

 

Please go read a certain chapter in CoT where he summons her. She makes a comment to herself that he is wearing a black coat much like the Asha'man's, and, having invested much in him, she decides to let that go. (Any errors here are mine, I can't recall well the scene).

 

That's just an aspect of what she thinks about him. If she doesn't have in mind to direct him where she thinks he ought to be going, why on earth would she care about what he is wearing? I'll admit that it doesn't say much, but I think she has no business in his private life.

 

"It was too much like an Asha'men's to suite her, but she said nothing." [Emphasis mine]

 

I'm sorry... but A) She idly thinks that she doesn't like his coat, but says nothing about it... and even the thought is nuetral, with no reference to her investment, or anything... If anything that just proves my point. She doesn't agree with his choice, but does she make any gesture to alter it?

 

Why does Cadsuane do what she does? For the Tower? The world? Herself? Rand? Your choice

 

Cadsuane states, openly, and bound by the oath rod, that she does what she does for Rand, specifically decrying her own interest, and that of the Tower. So not my choice.

 

That doesn't mean Rand's opinion of whats best for him is overly important, but meh.

 

Not so simple, I'm no psychiatrist, but I would think there are other methods that would be more successful to correct him.

 

What methods? Because quite frankly i dont think other methods would be more successful. Rand is stubborn so cojoling, and going throug softer methods wouldn't work, he has the power to subdue any opponant, so direct opposition wouldn't work.... Cadsuane simply illuminates what a fool he is, when he acts the fool. Embaressment is a powerful tool. If throwing a tantrum results in you looking like a child, then you pay attention to what you are doing. Already Rand has started thinking about what he says before he says it more and more because of Cadsuane, rather then just blurting out what he wants. Notice she calls him on that with both Logain and Bera.

 

And he needs to learn that.

 

Which tantrum is it that has shown the need for her intervention?

 

1. When she first enters he yells, and threatens, and when she doesnt bend he throws a teapot into the wall. Tantrum.

2. When he commands her presense, and she doesn't come, he visits her and when she doesn't give him what he feels to be the propper respect, he storms off. Tantrum.

3. When Logain suggests that Taim is a Darkfriend he throws a Tantrum, ignoring what Logain says and demanding he do only what Rand says. Tantrum.

4. When they are in Tear, he throws a Tantrum about Bera granting the rebels titles back. That one was pure Tantrum--there was no gain in him witholding their titles, and the only thing was it ruffled his pride to not get to punish those that had rejected him. Purerly personal and emotional reaction. Tantrum.

 

The only one I can think of is in his rooms, smashing the mirrors and whatnot...and I doubt the Aiel give a damn about that. As for the Stone, when giving whatshisface the crown of Tear, I don't think it mattered there...the nobles there were fools anyway, who will always oppose Rand behind his back, or will die at Rand's first convenience. Rand was going to crown him anyway (He knew about Min's viewing) and getting angry with a few fools who's mind will not be swayed either way is hardly a tantrum.

 

Its not about wether or not it matters, or wether others care, its about how Rand reacts to things that dont go his way. Its about how Rand thinks.

 

Other than those...what Tantrums has he had in public view of his followers that have in any way affected the respect he commands? How does her smacking him in public help any of that?

 

Again... what does public view or others opinions have to do with Cadsuane's goal... or indeed the merit to Cadsuanes worries about Rand mental state? This is Rands problem... what does anyone else have to do with it?

 

. Where and when does Rand get mad and do that? I did pick up a dictionary, and it has the word tantrum as a short burst of anger and bad behavior because you cannot get what you want.

 

 

Rand did get angry with those Nobles in KoD, but no way did he get mad and throw things.

 

Where in your definitions does it say he needs to throw things? Aside from which your playing at semantics. When Rand doesn't get his own way, he reacts by throwing the full force of himself against whatever is, reguardless of importance. He throws tantrums.

 

Look at it this way. Why is Rand angry in the first place? I've said it before, he falls, and the world falls as well. He is under enormous stress, and I believe it's understandable that he gets frustrated when people he expects to perform well instead decide to go on with their petty issues. He doesn't do what he does for himself. He expects to die, but he at least want to do well a difficult job that none else can.

 

It's perfectly understandable. It's also entirely unacceptable. Aside from the fact that he needs to think rationally, and be in control of his emotions, or he risks the fate of the entire world out of a sense of pique (note: Logain re: Taim) he also has no right to treat others badly out of hand, even with his Dragonness (note: Bera.)

 

But from there to saying that Rand behaves like a petulant child, I don't get it all. If he was building a palace for himself and threw a fit because marble stones cost too much, I would understand. But here the world depends on every move he makes. He has plans those fool nobles don't know anything about, and they could go awry because of just any small change those lords and ladies could make because they think they know better.

 

Don't grant Rand nobility that he doesn't have. He threw a tantrum because people who rejected him weren't punished. It was childish, and aided his cause naught. Read the part....

 

Ah, but you're assuming Cadsuane knew as much as you do about Rand. She had already met him, knew he was strong-willed and stubborn, but she didn't know enough about him to conclude that he would simply not listen to her.

 

We're presuming nothing. And the fact that Cadsuane's chosen action of the slap actually had an effect on Rand, and stopped him using balefire at least once that i can recall (which is more then Moiraine's stern lecture achieved) just stands for the acuteness of her perception of him.

 

She picked him.

 

Later on is when she notes that most people know she has a sharp tongue just after meeting her, but that Rand often needed to be reminded of that. In the light of this, I could understand her slapping him to get his attention.

 

Because he needed it. Because a sharp tongue would have achieved nothing, and she knew it.

 

You seem to think there is no chance of that getting out. I'm not so convinced. Those people are human, and they talk. All it would take is one of them saying something in the wrong ear. Aes Sedai are strong women, but they gossip as well.

 

Rumor is what I mean here. Imagine something like 'The Dragon Reborn's Aes Sedai advisor beats the crap out of him' floating around. You may say that Rand already has enough rumors circuling around about him, and that one more will not do any harm. I think there is a limit, and that one could be the one that tips things. Like they say where there is smoke there is fire. Not all rumors have founding, but that's not what I'm concerned about.

 

In comparison to the rumours about Rand killing Morgase, and Rand destroying the palace, and Rand compelling Aes Sedai, kneeling to Elaida, killing Elaida, being dead and running off to join a string quartet im not sure what effect your worried about this having. Besides, Aes Sedai hearing that Cadsuane is behaving that way... oh wow, wont they be shocked. I mean its said that she beat up an Amyrlin once, and that means death... do you honestly seem them granting any form of judgement on Rand from her actions, and moreover that judgement having any form of effect on their attitudes, which are pretty locked in stone anyway.

 

Far more damaging are the Rumors that the only hope for the world behaves like a child when thwarted...

 

Not knowing what her plans are-apart from Min's vague prophecies, which, if anything, complicates figuring out her plans-you can't possibly tell why she does what she does. She is human, after all, and I don't think tendernes is out of place, but it could be that whatever she was after called for tenderness at that moment. I think she is capable of doing that, especially with Min watching.

 

I think you can figure out what she is up to... its marked by her actions, and its a big reason i respect her.

 

 

In my opinion, Rand has never needed to be taught manners. He is the Dragon Reborn, fated to break the world. That's what almost everyone-noble or peasant-retains in memory about the Dragon Reborn. He is not seen as less than a monster that should be put to death if possible.

 

I do think Rand saw that no matter how polite he was, or no matter how much he tried to manipulate people, they would still hate him and scheme behind his back. Therefore he set manners and civility aside and decided to deal with people-those that see him as a rabid lion, or simply have in mind to use him-in the way he saw that they would respond to, and that would get him the quickest results: fear, and shouldering his way around.

 

He needs to be taught manners because he needs to learn control. For his own sake, and for the worlds.

 

Moreover, you admit the way he acts, but are shocked when Cadsuane doesn't lie down and take it?

 

He is a stressed up man, it's more that 'throwing tantrums', try to understand that.

 

We do understand it. So does Cadsuane. Which is exactly why it MUST be addressed.

Then lets judge her by her actions. When Rand gets slashed by Padan Fain, she keeps him alive long enough to get to people who can Heal him. When he gets caught in Far Madding, she breaks the political power of someone she respects to get him out. When he embarks on a plan to cleanse the taint that every other Aes Sedai present thought was far too dangerous to try, she organizes a defense that fights off multiple Forsaken. And when he gets drawn into a trap by Semirhage, she uses her abilities and equipment to spring it and capture Semi.

 

Yes ... what a horrible ally. (Sarcasm there people ... great amounts of sarcasm).

 

People are just mad because they like Rand and Cadsuane doesn't suck up to him. Well guess what? Thats GOOD for Rand. He trusts now, and frankly, his trust goes beyond just allowing her to "teach him something". On the two major initiatives he's wanted to accomplish since she joined him, she has given him her full support. Which of his plans, exactly, has she tried to "force" him to change?

 

This whole thing is silly. Even Rand is not as offended as you people are.

 

Agreed. Especially the last bit.

 

(though again, I've yet to see the dire consequences of using Balefire in localized amounts...as it hasn't happened in the books to date)

 

Its possible that it has though, in Kod the shimmer we see does sound alot like the pattern unravelling, though i personally think it was the Dark One.

 

And noone but the Forsaken knows that the DO can bring a Forsaken back from death.

 

Lan's comment in tEotW suggests that it is known that the Dark One has that power, but no one has connected it with the Forsaken yet, ill agree. How long that will last with the capture of semi...

[Zardi]

As a side note, that episode was staged beforehand, so that people would think he was angrily dismissing Perrin, when he was in fact sending Perrin on a mission to get Masema. So, it doesn't really count. Rand shoved Perrin a little harder than Perrin thought he would, thats all.

Rand and Perrin planned to have a fight, yes. If I recall correctly, Rand let Perrin pick a topic for them to fight about, and Rand did not expect him to choose the Wise Ones' treatment of the captive Aes Sedai. It was a subject that made Rand actually angry (not fake angry), so he threw Perrin across the room out of rage. That bit was not planned, as either Perrin or Rand later recalled. It was a tantrum.

[Mercer]

^ Hmm, I thought that part was planned, Rand simply threw harder than expected.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Hmm, I thought that part was planned, Rand simply threw harder than expected.

 

That was the impression I got too.

[Zardi]

I may be remembering wrong, then, or I misinterpreted. I need to reread that part.

[Myyrth]

Lurkers

Don't grant Rand nobility that he doesn't have.

 

He is an noble both by birth, by his title as the DR and by his power and influence.. you can hardly argue that. Considering all nobles at some point where peasents or merchants that had enough money and influence to consider themselves more important that other people.

 

Also.. Rand has the right to be angry with people, When Rand raises his voice to any of his followers for reasons that he feels are justified and Cadsuane starts counting... COUNTING for goodness sake. Rand should just start counting backwards from three, and if Cadsuane doesn't grow up and act her age. Give her a good round spanking to teach her to stop acting like a petulant babysitter. All of this punishments are what Cadsuane feels to be correct, and just because both you and Cadsuane find Rand to be acting like a child doesn't make it true. I'd quote from the book but i'm lazy, yet I remember a time Cadsuane was doing needlework or whatever and Rand raised his voice. She started counting, like he was a toddler about to be sent to his room. That is not a justified or reasonable method of punishment.

 

Tantrums... sure try and bring him under reign if he's being ridiculous. I just don't think he needs to be as polite as Cadsuane is insisting, Rand Al'thor does not need to say please and thank you when he wants to get something done. Does it hurt Cadsuanes feelings when he doesn't say your welcome? Thats just too bad.

 

I'm not arrogant enough to think that Rand doesn't act foolishly at times and needs the guiding hand that Cadsuane offers, but your ridiculous insistance that Cadsuane is correct all the time in her punishments needs some examinatin.

[Luckers]

He is an noble both by birth, by his title as the DR and by his power and influence.. you can hardly argue that. Considering all nobles at some point where peasents or merchants that had enough money and influence to consider themselves more important that other people.

 

I meant nobility of character, not his presense in the aristocracy.

 

Also.. Rand has the right to be angry with people, When Rand raises his voice to any of his followers for reasons that he feels are justified and Cadsuane starts counting... COUNTING for goodness sake. Rand should just start counting backwards from three, and if Cadsuane doesn't grow up and act her age. Give her a good round spanking to teach her to stop acting like a petulant babysitter. All of this punishments are what Cadsuane feels to be correct, and just because both you and Cadsuane find Rand to be acting like a child doesn't make it true. I'd quote from the book but i'm lazy, yet I remember a time Cadsuane was doing needlework or whatever and Rand raised his voice. She started counting, like he was a toddler about to be sent to his room. That is not a justified or reasonable method of punishment.

 

Rand was behaving like a child, so its perfectly justifiable. Though to be honest i doubt Cadsuane was doing into punish him. She was merely illuminating his childishness. He threw a tissy just because someone who had the temerity to not like him taking over their nation wasn't spanked for it.

 

Rand's stated goal is the unification of the light and the destruction of the shadow, and in that scene he allowed his personal sense of rejection to get in the way of that goal. You can't argue that, because even HE admits that Bera had the right of it. Cadsuane reaction to him doing that was perfectly reasonable.

 

Tantrums... sure try and bring him under reign if he's being ridiculous. I just don't think he needs to be as polite as Cadsuane is insisting, Rand Al'thor does not need to say please and thank you when he wants to get something done. Does it hurt Cadsuanes feelings when he doesn't say your welcome? Thats just too bad.

 

At times he does. For instance when Logain turned up, Rand should have treated him with respect--im not saying they should have braided each others hair, or that Rand should have treated Logain as an equal, but he should have listened to him.

 

Rand relies too much on other people sense of obligation to the prophecy, and that is damaging his cause. Instead of loyal followers, he has malcontents who only put up with his temper and high-handedness because of their acknowledgement of the nessesity of Rands existence... and before you say that that is right, understand that it IS hurting his cause. Communication is breaking down because of it. Taim could have been uncovered by now if he'd stopped mulishly only paying attention to what HE concidered important and listened to someone else for five minutes.

 

I'm not arrogant enough to think that Rand doesn't act foolishly at times and needs the guiding hand that Cadsuane offers, but your ridiculous insistance that Cadsuane is correct all the time in her punishments needs some examinatin.

 

The specific issues Cadsuane calls him up on are irrelevant (though frankly, i agree with her position in pretty much every one of them). The over all addressal of Rand's great weakness of character is ESSENTIAL.

[Gentled Ben]

Zardi pondered (a long time ago):

I do wonder what in the world Egwene is going to yell at Rand about. What has he done lately that would make her mad? She can be quite unreasonable when it comes to Rand, but unless she plans to berate him about his manners just like Caddyshack does, she would have to manufacture something to be mad at. Am I forgetting about something? :?

 

I assume that she'll yell at him about the truce he's determined to make with the Seanchan, who are determined to attack the White Tower, although I suspect that by the time this yelling occurs, both of those events will have occured already, as well.

 

And hey, I spotted that question, felt I could answer it, and remembered it while reading through four more pages of posts about something else entirely. Pretty cool, huh? Now, if I could only remember milk when I'm at the store. :P

[Myyrth]

I meant nobility of character, not his presense in the aristocracy.

 

Rand has great nobility of character, more nobility than Weiramon and numerous other nobles of Randland. Certaintly more nobility than Alanna or the majority of the Aes Sedai.

 

Don't try and say he's not a noble individual.

 

Accepting that Rand has terrible communication skills, Cadsuane punishments sometimes seem totally unrelated to what she is trying to teach. If you hit a kid everytime he misbehaves he'll start to fear actions that will incite the anger of his parent, not learn correct methods of behavior that punishments relative to the offense would teach.

 

I guess i'm saying that Cadsuane is an ineffective teacher at times. Few people not constrained by visions or oaths would tolerate that sort of behavior from her.

[Luckers]

Rand has great nobility of character, more nobility than Weiramon and numerous other nobles of Randland. Certaintly more nobility than Alanna or the majority of the Aes Sedai.

 

Don't try and say he's not a noble individual.

 

Why not. He wasn't acting with any sort of nobility in that scene. He was acting like a child who'd been denied their favorite toy.

 

And im confused at your list... what matters if Rand is better the Wieramon or the others... they arn't the Dragon, and if they were Cadsuane would be slapping them down too. She already had with Alana.

 

You were granting Rand noble reasons for throwing that tantrum, when even he concedes there were none, so i dont get the connection at all to either the aristocracy, or comparing him with other characters.

 

Accepting that Rand has terrible communication skills, Cadsuane punishments sometimes seem totally unrelated to what she is trying to teach. If you hit a kid everytime he misbehaves he'll start to fear actions that will incite the anger of his parent, not learn correct methods of behavior that punishments relative to the offense would teach.

 

I guess i'm saying that Cadsuane is an ineffective teacher at times. Few people not constrained by visions or oaths would tolerate that sort of behavior from her.

 

Actually i think Cadsuane's method is very effective. If everytime Rand throws a tantrum he ends up looking like a child he's going to start thinking before he reacts. Classic behaviour modification. And who cares if they tolerate that behaviour... She certainly doesn't.

[Myyrth]

Obviously we have diffrent opinions on the use of Operant Conditioning.

 

I wasn't trying to say going into a rage is a noble trait... I had origionally thought u where questiong his ability claim the title of Noble. Then when I realized you where actually saying Rand wasn't a noble individual that is what I am denying. Rand can throw a tantrum once and a while and still be a noble person.