Quality Discussion Thread

[Suttree]

 

I suppose I wasn't expecting perfection from Sanderson.

 

I was simply happy we got an ending. I really dislike and frown upon anyone who looks at the last three books and complains that Sanderson didn't do something as good as Robert Jordan. We are lucky Robert Jordan ALLOWED someone to complete it.

No-one was expecting perfection. But I dislike people who say that we should just be happy that we got an ending and leave it at that. Maybe an ending is better than no ending, but a good ending is better than a bad ending. I don't think we should have to make do. We can and should be willing to call out both authors on their failings. While Sanderson was placed in a difficult position, we don't have to make excuses for him. Let's treat him like a grown up. There are failings in his WoT books, and in his own books. We can ignore them and try to be happy, or we can offer criticism, and hope that he improves - because if he improves, that means his future works will have fewer problems, and so there will be fewer problems for us to ignore. We have respect for Brandon, and therefore try to voice our dissatisfaction in a way that helps him identify the weaknesses in his writing, and will allow him to work on those weaknesses, and thus to grow as an author. Sweeping Brandon's failings under the rug - which is what the "I'm just happy we got an ending so I won't criticise mindset amounts to" - is an attitude that does more to infantilise him that it does to help him improve, and consequently is an attitude marked by a fundamental lack of respect for him. I don't think a lack of respect is what people are trying to convey, but that's what it amounts to.

This times a 1,000. Well said Mr. Ares, way to articulate the reality of the situation.

[flinn]

 

 

I suppose I wasn't expecting perfection from Sanderson.

 

I was simply happy we got an ending. I really dislike and frown upon anyone who looks at the last three books and complains that Sanderson didn't do something as good as Robert Jordan. We are lucky Robert Jordan ALLOWED someone to complete it.

No-one was expecting perfection. But I dislike people who say that we should just be happy that we got an ending and leave it at that. Maybe an ending is better than no ending, but a good ending is better than a bad ending. I don't think we should have to make do. We can and should be willing to call out both authors on their failings. While Sanderson was placed in a difficult position, we don't have to make excuses for him. Let's treat him like a grown up. There are failings in his WoT books, and in his own books. We can ignore them and try to be happy, or we can offer criticism, and hope that he improves - because if he improves, that means his future works will have fewer problems, and so there will be fewer problems for us to ignore. We have respect for Brandon, and therefore try to voice our dissatisfaction in a way that helps him identify the weaknesses in his writing, and will allow him to work on those weaknesses, and thus to grow as an author. Sweeping Brandon's failings under the rug - which is what the "I'm just happy we got an ending so I won't criticise mindset amounts to" - is an attitude that does more to infantilise him that it does to help him improve, and consequently is an attitude marked by a fundamental lack of respect for him. I don't think a lack of respect is what people are trying to convey, but that's what it amounts to.

This times a 1,000. Well said Mr. Ares, way to articulate the reality of the situation.

 Well good thing we didnt just get "an ending". In the past 3 books there have been scenes that have rivaled or outdone any scenes in the series. Some may have been written by RJ but it doesnt matter, without Sanderson we wouldnt have experienced those RJ scenes either. 

 

 

 The White Tower/Seanchan battle was epic. 

 Perrin/Egwene meeting in the wolf-dream, I loved it.

 Perrin's hammer.

 Perrin/Whitecloak against the Trolloc battle.

 

 Just to name a couple right off my head.

[Suttree]

@flinn

 

Single scenes don't make a book, and yes there have been some sections that were well done. That said the work was far too uneven and the writing at times extremely unpolished. That is before you even start touching on the mistakes, structural issues and time line. That is exactly the point Mr Ares is making. Turning a blind eye to how flawed these books were and saying well "certain parts were done well" and "at least we got an ending"(which has been repeated ad nauseam) is selling Brandon short.

 

Edit: Although I agree that a couple of the scenes you mention above were good, simply listing things you like doesn't really help in showing how Brandon's scenes have "rivaled our outdone" any scenes in the series. Which of course is going overboard anyway. These last three books included some good scenes, were well paced at times and had a good deal of fan gratification as we reached the end of the story arc. They were not well written on the whole however, not by any stretch.

[henderson]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

 

I am glad that the WHEEL OF TIME sequence is completed. 

 

I started reading this sequence in 2003, and I enjoyed each every book that published up to that point.  I understood the frustration expressed by long-time readers with CROSSROADS OF TWILIGHT, but I think because I read all the books consecutively without having to wait, I thought CROSSROADS was not too bad.  The first book that I had to wait to be published was KNIFE OF DREAMS, and I thought that book was worth the wait.  I thought it was a better book than CROSSROADS.

 

When Robert Jordan announced he was ill, I was caught of guard.  I would read his updates on his blog and this web-site, and I was rooting for him.  When he said he was going to be it,  I was right there with him.

 

When he passed away, I was devastated.  After the grieving, I thought that the series that I enjoyed would not be completed.

 

In 2007, I read MISTBORN by Brandon Sanderson, and I thought it was not too bad, not great.  I thought the word-building was interesting, and I really liked Kelsier. Overall, I thought it was a decent read.  Then, TOR announced that Brandon Sanderson was to finish the WHEEL OF TIME sequence.

 

My first reaction was that Brandon would not be the first choice I would have made to finish the series.  I thought Daniel Abraham or  David B. Coe would have been solid choices to be considered to complete the WOT sequence.  All three were already TOR authors.  Daniel Abraham was in the midst of writing the acclaimed LONG PRICE quartet.  David B. Coe had just completed WINDS OF FORELANDS sequece.  Each of these writers showed that they could write complex stories that included a large caste of characters and multiple plot threads over several books, maybe not as many books as WOT sequence, but each of them had the experience and were good writers.

 

I read Brandon's blog and interviews, and he seemed like a nice enough guy, but I didn't see why he would have been chosen.  Then, I read his first WOT interviews, and he mentioned how important and influential WOT was to him when he was growing up, that I thought he certainly had the passion and the drive to finish the WOT sequence.  I thought since Brandon was chosen at least I was happy that the WOT sequence would be completed.

 

In 2008,  I read WELL OF ASCENSION, but I could not complete it.  I did not like it all.  I did not like VIN, and I did not like the way her relationship with son (don't remember  his name) of the wealthy family was portrayed.  I thought the writing lacked substance, and was a step down from MISTBORN.

 

I worried if I didn't like Brandon's own books, I might not like the WOT books that he would write.

 

In 2009 when GATHERING STORM was published, it had been four years since KNIFE OF DREAMS.  Brandon gave a bunch of interviews and I read his many blog entries about the WOT writing process, and I was feeling positive.  The initial round of reviews were overall positive, so I got over my worries and concerns and bought GATHERING STORM.  I read it and I thought it was not too bad.  I thought it was better than MISTBORN, so I thought WOT was in good hands.

 

In 2010, I was reading Brandon's blogs about his writing process for both WAY OF THE KINGS and TOWERS OF MIDNIGHT.  I thought it was amazing that he was able to produce two massive stories in one year.  If each of these books would be as good as GATHERING STORM, then I knew I had nothing to worry about.

 

I remember reading the initial reviews of the nearly one thousand page WAY OF THE KINGS, and there was positive buzz.  Some of the reviewers stated that Brandon had improved as a writer.  WAY OF THE KINGS had some minor issues, but overall it was a decent read.  I remember reading Brandon's interviews during this time, and how he talked about how he paid for the artwork and included little snippets of characters who were not part of the main story, but he wanted to provide the feel of how the events of the book impacted the greater world as a whole.

 

I read WAY OF THE KINGS, and I scratched my head wondering if I read the same book as these reviewers.  This book was a bloated mess.  None of the characters were interesting, and I was not interested in their lives.  The world building was mildly interesting, and I guess the magic systems as well, but that was about it.  This book was a step down from WELL OF ASCENSION.

 

I dreaded reading TOWERS OF MIDNIGHT after reading WAY OF THE KINGS.  I was more a fan of WOT than I was of Brandon Sanderson.  I knew I was going to buy TOWERS OF MIDNIGHT no matter what the initial reviews indicated.  After I read TOWERS OF MIDNIGHT, I thought it was a step up from WAY OF THE KINGS, but not by much.  I am not usually affected by the writing in a novel, but I was thrown out of the book by some of Brandon's word choices.  These WOT characters were different.  I read the book a second time, and, unfortunately, my opinion did not change.  I knew that the last book written by Brandon Sanderson that I would read would be MEMORY OF LIGHT.

 

When TOR announced that MEMORY OF LIGHT was going to be delayed, I was a little upset.  Brandon announced that he was done writing the book, but it was not going to be published for another year.  I do not know anything about the publishing business, but I could not understand the reason for the delay. 

 

At the end of last year when excerpts of MEMORY OF LIGHT were released, I did not read any of them.  I just wanted to read MEMORY OF LIGHT.  I did not read of the initial reviews because I figured they would be as positive as they were for the previous two WOT books.

 

I read MEMORY OF LIGHT, and I am glad the WOT sequence is completed.

 

Then, I read some of the book signing reports with Harriet and Brandon.  In one of the reports, Harriet was asked how did she decide that Brandon should complete WOT.  She said that a friend gave her Brandon's eulogy of Robert Jordan.  Harriet that really moved her.  She, then, read the first forty some pages of the first book in the MISTBORN sequence, and then she fell asleep.  She did not fall asleep because the book was boring, but she fell asleep knowing that Brandon was the writer who should finish WOT sequence.

 

If I was with Harriet on that fateful night, I would have woken her and urged her to read WELL OF ASCENSION.

 

After all is said and done, I think Daniel Abraham or David B. Coe would have been a good choice to finish WOT.

 

Nevertheless, I am glad that the Wheel of Time sequence is complted.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Entreri]

If one does not have a passion for something like the WoT, it is doubtful that these other author's could have done any better...maybe if it was just one book. 

 

With Demandred, logically the Shadow is victorious.  That is the problem with building up someone like Demandred, 2nd strongest sa'angreal, 72 linked channelers and a massive Sharan army. 

 

Unless Rand Sedai comes with Callandor to engage and defeat him, it becomes unrealistic.  I suppose Perrin could pop in, drag Demandred to TAR and kill him...that would still not feel right either. 

[Semirhage666]

I'm currently still working my way through Chapter 37 and something stuck out at me.

 

In one Pevara PoV, she, Emarin, Jonneth, Canler, and Theodrin all travel up to the Heights, get attacked, Pevara notes everyone is still alive, she does her freak in-a-circle gateway thing, they escape, and in the remaining Androl/Pevara PoVs, Canler is nowhere to be found and no one remarks on his absence or recalls his death or anything.

 

Did Brandon really [removed] so badly as to leave us with a randomly disappearing character, or am I missing something? Cause that's a pretty unforgivable [removed] if it is one.

[Guest wattah]

I finished A Memory of Light today.

 

I started reading the Wheel of Time in 1990, and the series since then had a special significance for me. I grew up with the characters. I loved the world Jordan created. Each time a book was released I thrilled at the chance to dive back into the fantasy that he spun. While, like many readers, I sometimes chaffed at the slow pace, for me the joy was in the journey, not the destination. I would happily have continued reading while Jordan was happy to write.

 

When Jordan died, while deeply saddened, I was happy to hear that another writer had taken on the task of finishing the story, and eagerly awaited the publication of the Gathering Storm. When I read it however, I was immediately disappointed. The characters I had loved were gone. Simalcrums bore their names, but their spirits had died with Jordan. A Taint had fallen across the world.

 

There was too much wrong with Sanderson’s work to note point by point. Others have done a good job of listing the defects here. I can only say that I agree with one other post I read – I wish the Wheel of Time had ended with Knife of Dreams. The 'story' may have ended today, but that world died with Jordan. The books that followed were a travesty.

 

I finished a Memory of Light today.

 

I wish I hadn’t.

 

 

[Finnssss22]

@flinn

 

Single scenes don't make a book, and yes there have been some sections that were well done. That said the work was far too uneven and the writing at times extremely unpolished. That is before you even start touching on the mistakes, structural issues and time line. That is exactly the point Mr Ares is making. Turning a blind eye to how flawed these books were and saying well "certain parts were done well" and "at least we got an ending"(which has been repeated ad nauseam) is selling Brandon short.

 

Edit: Although I agree that a couple of the scenes you mention above were good, simply listing things you like doesn't really help in showing how Brandon's scenes have "rivaled our outdone" any scenes in the series. Which of course is going overboard anyway. These last three books included some good scenes, were well paced at times and had a good deal of fan gratification as we reached the end of the story arc. They were not well written on the whole however, not by any stretch.

 

How is that different from the previous 11 books though?

C'mon, be honest, on re-reads don't tell me you don't skip/skim some of the "wonder twin" scenes or Elayne solo scenes or a good bit of the Faile is captured arc among other scenes and arcs that while, are well written, don't progress the story/plot one iota for 100's of pages.

 

I think, after about books 6-7 there has always been some criticism to be made. The difference though is that the nature of that criticism has changed.

And please don't bring up the KoD argument again. Yes it was a step in the right direction to righting the series, it was only a step though, it didn't right everything and it took almost 3 bloody years to get out from the last, culminating a rather agonizing 10-12 year lull (depending on whether you want to count from LoC or aCoS).

 

I'm not defending BS here either, he definitely has his faults but so did RJ, they just don't share the same faults.

[Suttree]

 

@flinn

 

Single scenes don't make a book, and yes there have been some sections that were well done. That said the work was far too uneven and the writing at times extremely unpolished. That is before you even start touching on the mistakes, structural issues and time line. That is exactly the point Mr Ares is making. Turning a blind eye to how flawed these books were and saying well "certain parts were done well" and "at least we got an ending"(which has been repeated ad nauseam) is selling Brandon short.

 

Edit: Although I agree that a couple of the scenes you mention above were good, simply listing things you like doesn't really help in showing how Brandon's scenes have "rivaled our outdone" any scenes in the series. Which of course is going overboard anyway. These last three books included some good scenes, were well paced at times and had a good deal of fan gratification as we reached the end of the story arc. They were not well written on the whole however, not by any stretch.

 

How is that different from the previous 11 books though?

C'mon, be honest, on re-reads don't tell me you don't skip/skim some of the "wonder twin" scenes or Elayne solo scenes or a good bit of the Faile is captured arc among other scenes and arcs that while, are well written, don't progress the story/plot one iota for 100's of pages.

 

I think, after about books 6-7 there has always been some criticism to be made. The difference though is that the nature of that criticism has changed.

And please don't bring up the KoD argument again. Yes it was a step in the right direction to righting the series, it was only a step though, it didn't right everything and it took almost 3 bloody years to get out from the last, culminating a rather agonizing 10-12 year lull (depending on whether you want to count from LoC or aCoS).

 

I'm not defending BS here either, he definitely has his faults but so did RJ, they just don't share the same faults.

How is it different? You said so yourself in the above post. "and arcs that while, are well written" The quality of writing never dropped even during that tPoD-CoT slow down(let's be real, RJ's critics never included LoC and ACoS in that stretch so I have no idea why you would in your count).

 

Criticism of RJ during that period, especially after CoT was pretty heavy around these parts for him possibly having lost control. KoD showed that it although things did get away from him it was the story arc as much as anything that slowed things down and he was going in the right direction. Naturally it sped up as we reach the climax, it's not like it's some inherent skill BS has that RJ does not. In fact the space wasn't used that wisely in the slightest. Further when you see the bloat and filler in these last three books,  I honestly can't imagine what the middle part of the story arc in a long series will look like under Brandon.

 

This is a thread dedicated to discussing the writing quality of Sanderson's WoT contribution and everything I said in the post you quoted is pretty much spot on. The quality of writing while at times good, is far too uneven and doesn't hold up under careful scrutiny. Characterization suffered, plotwork was often blunt/lowest common denominator and the dialog was wooden at times. None of those things can be applied to RJ's writing and that is where the difference lies.

 

For the record I don't skip anything on my re-reads and when you don't have to wait for a new book to come out the initial complaints about pace, especially in relation to tPoD and WH are overblown.

[Finnssss22]

 

 

@flinn

 

Single scenes don't make a book, and yes there have been some sections that were well done. That said the work was far too uneven and the writing at times extremely unpolished. That is before you even start touching on the mistakes, structural issues and time line. That is exactly the point Mr Ares is making. Turning a blind eye to how flawed these books were and saying well "certain parts were done well" and "at least we got an ending"(which has been repeated ad nauseam) is selling Brandon short.

 

Edit: Although I agree that a couple of the scenes you mention above were good, simply listing things you like doesn't really help in showing how Brandon's scenes have "rivaled our outdone" any scenes in the series. Which of course is going overboard anyway. These last three books included some good scenes, were well paced at times and had a good deal of fan gratification as we reached the end of the story arc. They were not well written on the whole however, not by any stretch.

 

How is that different from the previous 11 books though?

C'mon, be honest, on re-reads don't tell me you don't skip/skim some of the "wonder twin" scenes or Elayne solo scenes or a good bit of the Faile is captured arc among other scenes and arcs that while, are well written, don't progress the story/plot one iota for 100's of pages.

 

I think, after about books 6-7 there has always been some criticism to be made. The difference though is that the nature of that criticism has changed.

And please don't bring up the KoD argument again. Yes it was a step in the right direction to righting the series, it was only a step though, it didn't right everything and it took almost 3 bloody years to get out from the last, culminating a rather agonizing 10-12 year lull (depending on whether you want to count from LoC or aCoS).

 

I'm not defending BS here either, he definitely has his faults but so did RJ, they just don't share the same faults.

How is it different? You said so yourself in the above post. "and arcs that while, are well written" The quality of writing never dropped even during that tPoD-CoT slow down(let's be real, RJ's critics never included LoC and ACoS in that stretch so I have no idea why you would in your count).

 

Criticism of RJ during that period, especially after CoT was pretty heavy around these parts for him possibly having lost control. KoD showed that it although things did get away from him it was the story arc as much as anything that slowed things down and he was going in the right direction. Naturally it sped up as we reach the climax, it's not like it's some inherent skill BS has that RJ does not. In fact the space wasn't used that wisely in the slightest. Further when you see the bloat and filler in these last three books,  I honestly can't imagine what the middle part of the story arc in a long series will look like under Brandon.

 

This is a thread dedicated to discussing the writing quality of Sanderson's WoT contribution and everything I said in the post you quoted is pretty much spot on. The quality of writing while at times good, is far too uneven and doesn't hold up under careful scrutiny. Characterization suffered, plotwork was often blunt/lowest common denominator and the dialog was wooden at times. None of those things can be applied to RJ's writing and that is where the difference lies.

 

For the record I don't skip anything on my re-reads and when you don't have to wait for a new book to come out the initial complaints about pace, especially in relation to tPoD and WH are overblown.

 

For the life of me I can not understand anyone who dares to say that BS is the only one guilty of "filler" and if anything RJ was more guilty of using "filler" than BS ever has.

RJ's filler was usually better written but it was still FILLER! You can dress a duck up as a swan but it's still a duck.

 

The pace of tPoD/WH/Cot is not overblown in the slightest! Please by all means tell me what plots were concluded or even moved along very much in the 737,108 words that comprised those 3 books??? Compared to each individual previous book and even KoD....not even remotely close there Sut, no way man.

The pace of those 3 books is just plain poor and THEN made almost unbearable with the long release dates.

 

Also for the record...

LoC - OCT '94

ACOS - MAY '96

KOD - OCT '05

 

That's 11 years between #6 and #11. Almost 10 years between #7 and #11.

 

 

Either way, at the end of the day, some people around here just need to accept that BS's deficiencies as the finisher of this series simply don't bother some people as much as it does others.

A lot of this debating is over how one FELT after finishing and no amount of arguing or constant repeating of the same points that some don't care as much about in the first place, is going to change how another FELT.

 

That's why so many of these debates get out of hand so quickly. The reality is that there's actually no right answer, just how we feel.

[Mats Spare Hat]

You used the term 'at the end of the day'

You lose.  It's just how I feel

[Finnssss22]

You used the term 'at the end of the day'

 

You lose.  It's just how I feel

 

Well your feelings are wrong then

 

Lets call each other names and risk getting banned now!!!

[Suttree]

Wait are you trying to say with your "forbthe record" the time it took to put each book out is a knock against the author? I thought we were talking about pace and the story getting away from him. That certainly didn't start before tPoD.

 

Also you seem not have an understanding about what bloat and filler actually mean. The bloat comes from Brandon's "tell don't show" style and his seeming inability to use literary devices like ellipsis(something RJ was very skilled at) to advance the action. As for filler could RJ's books have been edited better? Yes of course and they would be better books for it. The difference being it would take a major rewrite to do as RJ "filler" was so filled with foreshadowing, descriptive prose and key hints. With Brandon's filler you could quite literally cut out whole sections and not lose a single thing, that is on top of the blunt writing.

 

Regardless I'm not sure why you took us on this sidebar? We are discussing the writing quality of these last three books and everything I said in response to Flinn is spot on. The issues are very real and it certainly isn't "just how we feel". The drop in quality is readily apparent if you apply any type of careful analysis to the work. Just because some people don't notice them doesn't make the issues any less real. You asked what the difference was and I clarified it for you. Those are issues with literary quality. Now whether you didn't like certain scenes or thought the pace(which is rather funny to compare the pace in the middle of a story arc to the climax) was too slow, that is certainly up to the individual and there is no right answer. In regards to literary quality, not so much.

[Julian Cook]

 

 

 

@flinn

 

Single scenes don't make a book, and yes there have been some sections that were well done. That said the work was far too uneven and the writing at times extremely unpolished. That is before you even start touching on the mistakes, structural issues and time line. That is exactly the point Mr Ares is making. Turning a blind eye to how flawed these books were and saying well "certain parts were done well" and "at least we got an ending"(which has been repeated ad nauseam) is selling Brandon short.

 

Edit: Although I agree that a couple of the scenes you mention above were good, simply listing things you like doesn't really help in showing how Brandon's scenes have "rivaled our outdone" any scenes in the series. Which of course is going overboard anyway. These last three books included some good scenes, were well paced at times and had a good deal of fan gratification as we reached the end of the story arc. They were not well written on the whole however, not by any stretch.

 

How is that different from the previous 11 books though?

C'mon, be honest, on re-reads don't tell me you don't skip/skim some of the "wonder twin" scenes or Elayne solo scenes or a good bit of the Faile is captured arc among other scenes and arcs that while, are well written, don't progress the story/plot one iota for 100's of pages.

 

I think, after about books 6-7 there has always been some criticism to be made. The difference though is that the nature of that criticism has changed.

And please don't bring up the KoD argument again. Yes it was a step in the right direction to righting the series, it was only a step though, it didn't right everything and it took almost 3 bloody years to get out from the last, culminating a rather agonizing 10-12 year lull (depending on whether you want to count from LoC or aCoS).

 

I'm not defending BS here either, he definitely has his faults but so did RJ, they just don't share the same faults.

How is it different? You said so yourself in the above post. "and arcs that while, are well written" The quality of writing never dropped even during that tPoD-CoT slow down(let's be real, RJ's critics never included LoC and ACoS in that stretch so I have no idea why you would in your count).

 

Criticism of RJ during that period, especially after CoT was pretty heavy around these parts for him possibly having lost control. KoD showed that it although things did get away from him it was the story arc as much as anything that slowed things down and he was going in the right direction. Naturally it sped up as we reach the climax, it's not like it's some inherent skill BS has that RJ does not. In fact the space wasn't used that wisely in the slightest. Further when you see the bloat and filler in these last three books,  I honestly can't imagine what the middle part of the story arc in a long series will look like under Brandon.

 

This is a thread dedicated to discussing the writing quality of Sanderson's WoT contribution and everything I said in the post you quoted is pretty much spot on. The quality of writing while at times good, is far too uneven and doesn't hold up under careful scrutiny. Characterization suffered, plotwork was often blunt/lowest common denominator and the dialog was wooden at times. None of those things can be applied to RJ's writing and that is where the difference lies.

 

For the record I don't skip anything on my re-reads and when you don't have to wait for a new book to come out the initial complaints about pace, especially in relation to tPoD and WH are overblown.

 

For the life of me I can not understand anyone who dares to say that BS is the only one guilty of "filler" and if anything RJ was more guilty of using "filler" than BS ever has.

RJ's filler was usually better written but it was still FILLER! You can dress a duck up as a swan but it's still a duck.

 

The pace of tPoD/WH/Cot is not overblown in the slightest! Please by all means tell me what plots were concluded or even moved along very much in the 737,108 words that comprised those 3 books??? Compared to each individual previous book and even KoD....not even remotely close there Sut, no way man.

The pace of those 3 books is just plain poor and THEN made almost unbearable with the long release dates.

 

Also for the record...

LoC - OCT '94

ACOS - MAY '96

KOD - OCT 05

 

That's 11 years between #6 and #11. Almost 10 years between #7 and #11.

 

 

Either way, at the end of the day, some people around here just need to accept that BS's deficiencies as the finisher of this series simply don't bother some people as much as it does others.

A lot of this debating is over how one FELT after finishing and no amount of arguing or constant repeating of the same points that some don't care as much about in the first place, is going to change how another FELT.

 

That's why so many of these debates get out of hand so quickly. The reality is that there's actually no right answer, just how we feel.

 

a well reasoned point, sadly its misguided, RJ filler as you suggest is no filler as suck but more of an indulgence in looking at the larger picture in detail, too much detail for-sure, but still looking at the detail, what BS did is just out of greed, nothing more than greed, yes he come across as a genuine guy but dig a bit deeper and you see that what he and Harriet have done is for money and fame, nothing else.  could the story be told in 2 books rather than three yes, did we need new plots and characters introduced in the last three books, no not at all, too much time was taken up with tails of characters that quite frankly i could not give too monkeys for.  BS love or Perin blinded him to everything else, hated Perin and always will, never really worked out why he could not have died. of the last three books Perin kept coming to terms with who he was at the end of the book only to start again at the next book.

 

While I am grateful that the story has an end, its as crap an ending to a book as i have ever read, so much was left open, not a few threads but loads of them, yes we will get some more info in the encyclopedia, but that is even more money to spend.

 

14 books and you could not give the readers closure, 3 books from BS padded with rubbish that matters not and an ending that is a sham, yes a sham, we are left with unexplained reasons to Rand's pipe, the body swap etc, shame on you BS shame on you for such a poor ending, did i care who was the better swordmans no, but did i want to know about the 100 other threads you left open, yes.

[Mats Spare Hat]

 

You used the term 'at the end of the day'

 

You lose.  It's just how I feel

 

Well your feelings are wrong then

 

Lets call each other names and risk getting banned now!!!

 

 

IT'S ON  *squeaky voiced kid, from the simpson's, voice

 

little levity, little levity

[Finnssss22]

 

 

a well reasoned point, sadly its misguided, RJ filler as you suggest is no filler as suck but more of an indulgence in looking at the larger picture in detail, too much detail for-sure, but still looking at the detail, what BS did is just out of greed, nothing more than greed, yes he come across as a genuine guy but dig a bit deeper and you see that what he and Harriet have done is for money and fame, nothing else.  could the story be told in 2 books rather than three yes, did we need new plots and characters introduced in the last three books, no not at all, too much time was taken up with tails of characters that quite frankly i could not give too monkeys for.  BS love or Perin blinded him to everything else, hated Perin and always will, never really worked out why he could not have died. of the last three books Perin kept coming to terms with who he was at the end of the book only to start again at the next book.

 

While I am grateful that the story has an end, its as crap an ending to a book as i have ever read, so much was left open, not a few threads but loads of them, yes we will get some more info in the encyclopedia, but that is even more money to spend.

 

14 books and you could not give the readers closure, 3 books from BS padded with rubbish that matters not and an ending that is a sham, yes a sham, we are left with unexplained reasons to Rand's pipe, the body swap etc, shame on you BS shame on you for such a poor ending, did i care who was the better swordmans no, but did i want to know about the 100 other threads you left open, yes.

 

 

The actual ending is almost all RJ my friend. BS had very little to do with how it was left off, per RJ's wishes.

[Finnssss22]

Wait are you trying to say with your "forbthe record" the time it took to put each book out is a knock against the author? I thought we were talking about pace and the story getting away from him. That certainly didn't start before tPoD.

 

Also you seem not have an understanding about what bloat and filler actually mean. The bloat comes from Brandon's "tell don't show" style and his seeming inability to use literary devices like ellipsis(something RJ was very skilled at) to advance the action. As for filler could RJ's books have been edited better? Yes of course and they would be better books for it. The difference being it would take a major rewrite to do as RJ "filler" was so filled with foreshadowing, descriptive prose and key hints. With Brandon's filler you could quite literally cut out whole sections and not lose a single thing, that is on top of the blunt writing.

 

Regardless I'm not sure why you took us on this sidebar? We are discussing the writing quality of these last three books and everything I said in response to Flinn is spot on. The issues are very real and it certainly isn't "just how we feel". The drop in quality is readily apparent if you apply any type of careful analysis to the work. Just because some people don't notice them doesn't make the issues any less real. You asked what the difference was and I clarified it for you. Those are issues with literary quality. Now whether you didn't like certain scenes or thought the pace(which is rather funny to compare the pace in the middle of a story arc to the climax) was too slow, that is certainly up to the individual and there is no right answer. In regards to literary quality, not so much.

 

Make no mistake here, it's not that I don't understand your points, it's quite simply that I don't give a sh!t about them as much as you do and no amount of restating them or repeating them is going to change that

 

...and I'm certainly not alone on this, just like you're not alone on your views.

[MauricXe]

 

 

 

14 books and you could not give the readers closure, 3 books from BS padded with rubbish that matters not and an ending that is a sham, yes a sham, we are left with unexplained reasons to Rand's pipe, the body swap etc, shame on you BS shame on you for such a poor ending, did i care who was the better swordmans no, but did i want to know about the 100 other threads you left open, yes.

 

The ending was all RJ

[Suttree]

 

 

 

Wait are you trying to say with your "forbthe record" the time it took to put each book out is a knock against the author? I thought we were talking about pace and the story getting away from him. That certainly didn't start before tPoD.

 

Also you seem not have an understanding about what bloat and filler actually mean. The bloat comes from Brandon's "tell don't show" style and his seeming inability to use literary devices like ellipsis(something RJ was very skilled at) to advance the action. As for filler could RJ's books have been edited better? Yes of course and they would be better books for it. The difference being it would take a major rewrite to do as RJ "filler" was so filled with foreshadowing, descriptive prose and key hints. With Brandon's filler you could quite literally cut out whole sections and not lose a single thing, that is on top of the blunt writing.

 

Regardless I'm not sure why you took us on this sidebar? We are discussing the writing quality of these last three books and everything I said in response to Flinn is spot on. The issues are very real and it certainly isn't "just how we feel". The drop in quality is readily apparent if you apply any type of careful analysis to the work. Just because some people don't notice them doesn't make the issues any less real. You asked what the difference was and I clarified it for you. Those are issues with literary quality. Now whether you didn't like certain scenes or thought the pace(which is rather funny to compare the pace in the middle of a story arc to the climax) was too slow, that is certainly up to the individual and there is no right answer. In regards to literary quality, not so much.

Make no mistake here, it's not that I don't understand your points, it's quite simply that I don't give a sh!t about them as much as you do and no amount of restating them or repeating them is going to change that

 

...and I'm certainly not alone on this, just like you're not alone on your views.

Seriously? Do you just enjoy arguing then? You asked me to clarify and what the difference was and now you have this to say?

 

I mean this reminds me of the time you jumped all over me for saying Forgotten Realms books were poorly written and then wouldn't give over until I literally posted samples of how bad it was. I mean your contributions to this thread have almost solely been to jump on people critiquing and then try to point out RJ's flaws(but no you aren't defending Brandon eh?) ;) This is a thread where we discuss the quality of AMoL. I was responding to Flinn, you were responsive to me and asked me to clarify. If you don't care about it just avoid this thread and don't ask me to talk about it. That would seem to be the simplest solution. I get that different people look for different things in their fantasy and that is fine. I get unpolished prose dowsnt bother everyone and that is fine. But that doesn't change the point Mr Ares made.

[Finnssss22]

 

 

 

Wait are you trying to say with your "forbthe record" the time it took to put each book out is a knock against the author? I thought we were talking about pace and the story getting away from him. That certainly didn't start before tPoD.

 

Also you seem not have an understanding about what bloat and filler actually mean. The bloat comes from Brandon's "tell don't show" style and his seeming inability to use literary devices like ellipsis(something RJ was very skilled at) to advance the action. As for filler could RJ's books have been edited better? Yes of course and they would be better books for it. The difference being it would take a major rewrite to do as RJ "filler" was so filled with foreshadowing, descriptive prose and key hints. With Brandon's filler you could quite literally cut out whole sections and not lose a single thing, that is on top of the blunt writing.

 

Regardless I'm not sure why you took us on this sidebar? We are discussing the writing quality of these last three books and everything I said in response to Flinn is spot on. The issues are very real and it certainly isn't "just how we feel". The drop in quality is readily apparent if you apply any type of careful analysis to the work. Just because some people don't notice them doesn't make the issues any less real. You asked what the difference was and I clarified it for you. Those are issues with literary quality. Now whether you didn't like certain scenes or thought the pace(which is rather funny to compare the pace in the middle of a story arc to the climax) was too slow, that is certainly up to the individual and there is no right answer. In regards to literary quality, not so much.

Make no mistake here, it's not that I don't understand your points, it's quite simply that I don't give a sh!t about them as much as you do and no amount of restating them or repeating them is going to change that

 

...and I'm certainly not alone on this, just like you're not alone on your views.

Seriously? Do you just enjoy arguing then? You asked me to clarify and what the difference was and now you have this to say?

 

Actually, my point was simply that most of this isn't even a real argument. There can be no "winner" here as it's about opinion and feelings.

 

I also have no issue stating that RJ would have done a better job, that's obvious to me. At the same time though, we most likely wouldn't be reading it for many years yet

 

 

As far me "jumping" on people...how are you any different? You jump all over anyone that even attempts to defend BS in the slightest or points out a flaw of RJ's. Sorry man but Pot, let me introduce you to Kettle.

 

I mean, I get it, you consider my views misguided on these points and that's fine because by the same token I find your defending of the "the pace" of books #8-#10 just as misguided.

[Julian Cook]

 

 

 

14 books and you could not give the readers closure, 3 books from BS padded with rubbish that matters not and an ending that is a sham, yes a sham, we are left with unexplained reasons to Rand's pipe, the body swap etc, shame on you BS shame on you for such a poor ending, did i care who was the better swordmans no, but did i want to know about the 100 other threads you left open, yes.

 

The ending was all RJ

apart from the Perin padding bit, yes it was, I guess BS could just not resist it 

[mcbernier]

 

 

 

@flinn

 

Single scenes don't make a book, and yes there have been some sections that were well done. That said the work was far too uneven and the writing at times extremely unpolished. That is before you even start touching on the mistakes, structural issues and time line. That is exactly the point Mr Ares is making. Turning a blind eye to how flawed these books were and saying well "certain parts were done well" and "at least we got an ending"(which has been repeated ad nauseam) is selling Brandon short.

 

Edit: Although I agree that a couple of the scenes you mention above were good, simply listing things you like doesn't really help in showing how Brandon's scenes have "rivaled our outdone" any scenes in the series. Which of course is going overboard anyway. These last three books included some good scenes, were well paced at times and had a good deal of fan gratification as we reached the end of the story arc. They were not well written on the whole however, not by any stretch.

 

How is that different from the previous 11 books though?

C'mon, be honest, on re-reads don't tell me you don't skip/skim some of the "wonder twin" scenes or Elayne solo scenes or a good bit of the Faile is captured arc among other scenes and arcs that while, are well written, don't progress the story/plot one iota for 100's of pages.

 

I think, after about books 6-7 there has always been some criticism to be made. The difference though is that the nature of that criticism has changed.

And please don't bring up the KoD argument again. Yes it was a step in the right direction to righting the series, it was only a step though, it didn't right everything and it took almost 3 bloody years to get out from the last, culminating a rather agonizing 10-12 year lull (depending on whether you want to count from LoC or aCoS).

 

I'm not defending BS here either, he definitely has his faults but so did RJ, they just don't share the same faults.

How is it different? You said so yourself in the above post. "and arcs that while, are well written" The quality of writing never dropped even during that tPoD-CoT slow down(let's be real, RJ's critics never included LoC and ACoS in that stretch so I have no idea why you would in your count).

 

Criticism of RJ during that period, especially after CoT was pretty heavy around these parts for him possibly having lost control. KoD showed that it although things did get away from him it was the story arc as much as anything that slowed things down and he was going in the right direction. Naturally it sped up as we reach the climax, it's not like it's some inherent skill BS has that RJ does not. In fact the space wasn't used that wisely in the slightest. Further when you see the bloat and filler in these last three books,  I honestly can't imagine what the middle part of the story arc in a long series will look like under Brandon.

 

This is a thread dedicated to discussing the writing quality of Sanderson's WoT contribution and everything I said in the post you quoted is pretty much spot on. The quality of writing while at times good, is far too uneven and doesn't hold up under careful scrutiny. Characterization suffered, plotwork was often blunt/lowest common denominator and the dialog was wooden at times. None of those things can be applied to RJ's writing and that is where the difference lies.

 

For the record I don't skip anything on my re-reads and when you don't have to wait for a new book to come out the initial complaints about pace, especially in relation to tPoD and WH are overblown.

 

For the life of me I can not understand anyone who dares to say that BS is the only one guilty of "filler" and if anything RJ was more guilty of using "filler" than BS ever has.

RJ's filler was usually better written but it was still FILLER! You can dress a duck up as a swan but it's still a duck.

 

The pace of tPoD/WH/Cot is not overblown in the slightest! Please by all means tell me what plots were concluded or even moved along very much in the 737,108 words that comprised those 3 books??? Compared to each individual previous book and even KoD....not even remotely close there Sut, no way man.

The pace of those 3 books is just plain poor and THEN made almost unbearable with the long release dates.

 

Also for the record...

LoC - OCT '94

ACOS - MAY '96

KOD - OCT '05

 

That's 11 years between #6 and #11. Almost 10 years between #7 and #11.

 

 

Either way, at the end of the day, some people around here just need to accept that BS's deficiencies as the finisher of this series simply don't bother some people as much as it does others.

A lot of this debating is over how one FELT after finishing and no amount of arguing or constant repeating of the same points that some don't care as much about in the first place, is going to change how another FELT.

 

That's why so many of these debates get out of hand so quickly. The reality is that there's actually no right answer, just how we feel.

 

I agree that there is filler for both authors. I agree that the pace of the plot suffers for RJ in some of the middle books. However, you end by saying that there is no right answer, and it is just how we feel. I disagree. Wouldn't you say that there are standards that are independent of our feelings? Is it only a matter of feeling to say that RJ is not as great a writer as, oh I don't know, Shakespeare? And don't you also rely on presumably objective standards when you claim that there is filler for both authors and that the pace of RJ's plot development suffered at times? Or is this just how you feel?

 

I think we can strive to articulate objective standard through which art (loosely understood) can be judged. Otherwise, there can be no distinction between Beethoven and Britney Spears. And I agree with you, that these discussions often are about how we feel. And perhaps it is really hard to articulate objective grounds by which to judge our authors. But that does not mean that there are no quality differences, or that these differences only amount to the way we feel.

 

In any case, Wheel of Time is loads of fun. But it's not great writing. It won't last. And neither will these conversations. So let's have fun! 

[Suttree]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wait are you trying to say with your "forbthe record" the time it took to put each book out is a knock against the author? I thought we were talking about pace and the story getting away from him. That certainly didn't start before tPoD.

 

Also you seem not have an understanding about what bloat and filler actually mean. The bloat comes from Brandon's "tell don't show" style and his seeming inability to use literary devices like ellipsis(something RJ was very skilled at) to advance the action. As for filler could RJ's books have been edited better? Yes of course and they would be better books for it. The difference being it would take a major rewrite to do as RJ "filler" was so filled with foreshadowing, descriptive prose and key hints. With Brandon's filler you could quite literally cut out whole sections and not lose a single thing, that is on top of the blunt writing.

 

Regardless I'm not sure why you took us on this sidebar? We are discussing the writing quality of these last three books and everything I said in response to Flinn is spot on. The issues are very real and it certainly isn't "just how we feel". The drop in quality is readily apparent if you apply any type of careful analysis to the work. Just because some people don't notice them doesn't make the issues any less real. You asked what the difference was and I clarified it for you. Those are issues with literary quality. Now whether you didn't like certain scenes or thought the pace(which is rather funny to compare the pace in the middle of a story arc to the climax) was too slow, that is certainly up to the individual and there is no right answer. In regards to literary quality, not so much.

Make no mistake here, it's not that I don't understand your points, it's quite simply that I don't give a sh!t about them as much as you do and no amount of restating them or repeating them is going to change that

 

...and I'm certainly not alone on this, just like you're not alone on your views.

Seriously? Do you just enjoy arguing then? You asked me to clarify and what the difference was and now you have this to say?

Actually, my point was simply that most of this isn't even a real argument. There can be no "winner" here as it's about opinion and feelings.

 

I also have no issue stating that RJ would have done a better job, that's obvious to me. At the same time though, we most likely wouldn't be reading it for many years yet

 

 

As far me "jumping" on people...how are you any different? You jump all over anyone that even attempts to defend BS in the slightest or points out a flaw of RJ's.

Now you are flat out making things up. That isn't true and you know it. I was one of RJ's biggest critics after CoT and have always been clear as to what his actual skills are. He is an above good fantasy writer whose work most certainly doesn't hold up outside of genre. I've never been put him on a pedestal, it would take me all of a few minutes to pull old quotes showing you how off you are on this.

 

As for Brandon when people have stated things they thought Brandon did well(as I have done) I've either agreed or asked them to clarify if I don't agree and show me why they think what they do. What I've done in short is be realistic and haven't let obvious "blinders on" statements pass by. You yourself have said that about me more than once so give over with this angle. It's becoming clear(actually I should have known after your interactions with Terez) that you just like to bicker at times. Again if you don't care about it just avoid this thread.

 

Also I'm really confused about this whole "winner" thing you keep bringing up and that might be part of the problem. Do you get argumentative because you feel the critique of his flaws are somehow a personnel affront because you didn't notice them or they don't bother you? Again things like pace and liking certain story arcs are largely opinion. Flaws in the writing are not.

 

@maurice

 

The ending was most certainly not all written by RJ. Really wish people would stop saying that.

[Finnssss22]

 

@maurice

 

The ending was most certainly not all written by RJ. Really wish people would stop saying that.

 

The way it was left off was per RJ and that was a big point in his post that I answered with specificity on that point.

[Stormcrown]

 

 

 

 

I suppose I wasn't expecting perfection from Sanderson.

 

I was simply happy we got an ending. I really dislike and frown upon anyone who looks at the last three books and complains that Sanderson didn't do something as good as Robert Jordan. We are lucky Robert Jordan ALLOWED someone to complete it.

No-one was expecting perfection. But I dislike people who say that we should just be happy that we got an ending and leave it at that. Maybe an ending is better than no ending, but a good ending is better than a bad ending. I don't think we should have to make do. We can and should be willing to call out both authors on their failings. While Sanderson was placed in a difficult position, we don't have to make excuses for him. Let's treat him like a grown up. There are failings in his WoT books, and in his own books. We can ignore them and try to be happy, or we can offer criticism, and hope that he improves - because if he improves, that means his future works will have fewer problems, and so there will be fewer problems for us to ignore. We have respect for Brandon, and therefore try to voice our dissatisfaction in a way that helps him identify the weaknesses in his writing, and will allow him to work on those weaknesses, and thus to grow as an author. Sweeping Brandon's failings under the rug - which is what the "I'm just happy we got an ending so I won't criticise mindset amounts to" - is an attitude that does more to infantilise him that it does to help him improve, and consequently is an attitude marked by a fundamental lack of respect for him. I don't think a lack of respect is what people are trying to convey, but that's what it amounts to.

 

 

This times a 1,000. Well said Mr. Ares, way to articulate the reality of the situation.

 

 

I suppose I agree with this, but I'm not going to pick apart the book and complain about things that should have been. It's over. If you want to change something, I'd be happy to see a fanfiction or the way you think it should have been.

"Regret is an appalling waste of energy; you can't build on it; it is good only for wallowing."

~Katherine Mansfield

Probably sums up my reasons for not picking apart books. I just don't see a purpose is not enjoying what you got. You can't change it.

 

Although I do understand people who are not able to ignore stuff. I suppose that's just too bad. I was able to ignore the issues you guys are talking about, and I don't agree with the complaints about Demandred. I know were are getting his backstory in River of Souls, so that might give us some more insight on his mental situation.

 

One major thing, why are people shrugging off the madness and saying "Demandred being insane is a cop out" - It's not. It was built up for many books and other Forsaken even commented on Demandred's urge to kill LTT. One comment was "I remember a time he would have been happy to just have him killed, now he wants it by his own hand" Or something of the like. True Power insanity has a stable background in Ishy/Moridin/Ba'alzaman.