Quality Discussion Thread

[MarkDiLillo]

The thing is they needed to find an author who was 1) a fan of WOT 2) an author not in the middle of his/her own series and 3) someone who was willing to do it.

 

When people start saying stuff like BS doesn't care (enough) or doesn't spend enough time to complete the series (not taliking about TOM editing/revising which needed more time) are people that are unrealistic, unfair and disrespectful. No author would have given the time and effort that was truly needed to make the last three books truly great. It would probably take a decade of rereading, studying, writing, and revising to get it in tip top shape. That is asking a lot of an author who is in the middle of his own career who wants to write his own stories. It just isn't realistic nor fair to have a professional author give a decade (just a time I'm throwing out there) of his career to finishing someone else's work. BS did give us 5 years after all.

 

"Then he shouldn't have taken the job!" There lies the problem. If it wasn't BS a different author would have other issues. The question becomes a flawed ending to the series or no ending?

 

Now I'm not saying BS shouldn't be critiqued. I appreciate this thread where we can discuss the quality of amol. I agree with a lot of the flaws that were presented. I just think some people go a little overboard. That just tells me people's expectations were too high to be so emotional and not take it for what it is. No one could have finished it on the same level as RJ but I think BS did a good job nonetheless.

 

Actually, no.  He flat out did not spend enough time working on this.  You can tell when you analyze the quality of writing and the degree of completion of some of the plots.  You know how you can tell?  Because you look at everything else the guys written and it is miles better.

 

Let's not forget the 1.2% comment.

[Suttree]

Im saddened by the amount of complaining in EVERY single arc thread. Our favorite series, one of the greatest and largest fantasy series of all time, just came to an end. Instead of celebrating the awesomeness of Robert Jordan, Brandon saunderson and all of the characters that we have grown to love over 20 years, people are whining like a bunch of children that didnt get their way.

 

Sigh. This is a thread to discuss the quality of this book and Sanderson's writing. Refusing to put blinders on in relation to the flaws does not make one not thankful for Brandon stepping up and taking a swing at finishing the project. If the drop in literary quality and other flaws don't bother you, that's fine. People look for different things in their fantasy. The only childish thing however is complaining about those who are honest about the problems and it is rather sad you view literary critique as "whining".

[rane008]

DOUBLE X 2

[Vambram]

In my opinion, if all of the extra stuff was added to AMOL which rane008 mentioned in his post, then a 900 plus book could have easily become a 1200 page book.

 

Unlike with you, sir, I thoroughly enjoyed each and every book in the WOT series, including all of the ones which receive the most criticism from hardcore fanatics like we are here. The only book which I could skip on re-reads is CoT for it is easily the least compelling book in this truly great and epic series.

The WOT is the standard by which modern epic fantasy will be measured, and in my opinion, very few series come close to the greatness of the 14 books of the Wheel of Time.

[rane008]

Im saddened by the amount of complaining in EVERY single arc thread.  Our favorite series, one of the greatest and largest fantasy series of all time, just came to an end.  Instead of celebrating the awesomeness of Robert Jordan, Brandon saunderson and all of the characters that we have grown to love over 20 years, people are whining like a bunch of children that didnt get their way.  Very sad

 

This forum is ruining the experience of the final book for me. peace out, dragonmount forums. 

 

PS.  AMOL was a wonderful, exciting conclusion

You can be saddened all you want.  Don't come by.  And I am not whining like a little child.  Actually, you seem to be.  My comment was a mature and nuanced reaction to the end of a series that I loved and that didn't live up to that love in the end.  I didn't find AMOL wonderful, in fact, that's what it was missing: wonder.  I did find it a bit exciting, at times.

[Ashaman Valen]

 

 

The thing is they needed to find an author who was 1) a fan of WOT 2) an author not in the middle of his/her own series and 3) someone who was willing to do it.

 

When people start saying stuff like BS doesn't care (enough) or doesn't spend enough time to complete the series (not taliking about TOM editing/revising which needed more time) are people that are unrealistic, unfair and disrespectful. No author would have given the time and effort that was truly needed to make the last three books truly great. It would probably take a decade of rereading, studying, writing, and revising to get it in tip top shape. That is asking a lot of an author who is in the middle of his own career who wants to write his own stories. It just isn't realistic nor fair to have a professional author give a decade (just a time I'm throwing out there) of his career to finishing someone else's work. BS did give us 5 years after all.

 

"Then he shouldn't have taken the job!" There lies the problem. If it wasn't BS a different author would have other issues. The question becomes a flawed ending to the series or no ending?

 

Now I'm not saying BS shouldn't be critiqued. I appreciate this thread where we can discuss the quality of amol. I agree with a lot of the flaws that were presented. I just think some people go a little overboard. That just tells me people's expectations were too high to be so emotional and not take it for what it is. No one could have finished it on the same level as RJ but I think BS did a good job nonetheless.

Actually, no. He flat out did not spend enough time working on this. You can tell when you analyze the quality of writing and the degree of completion of some of the plots. You know how you can tell? Because you look at everything else the guys written and it is miles better.

 

Let's not forget the 1.2% comment.

I agree, I never said he put in enough time. What I said is that it is unrealistic to expect an author to spend a decade of work on WoT.

[rane008]

 

Now I'm not saying BS shouldn't be critiqued. I appreciate this thread where we can discuss the quality of amol. I agree with a lot of the flaws that were presented. I just think some people go a little overboard. That just tells me people's expectations were too high to be so emotional and not take it for what it is. No one could have finished it on the same level as RJ but I think BS did a good job nonetheless.

Looks guys, Robert created an epic and complex world.  The ending should have been equally epic and complex, if not more so.  This is not "too high expectations"--it's actually the expectation for which we were prepared.  And a good job nonetheless is just an apologist's way of saying at least we get an ending.  I don't agree with that. 

[rane008]

How the hell are some of you blaming the ending on RJ?!

 

He didn't write the book.  He didn't write the book before this.  And he didn't write the book before that one.  The only thing you can blame on RJ is the fate of certain characters.  Dont think its right that Rand lived?  That's on RJ.  Don't like that Egwene died?  That's on RJ.  Don't like HOW Egwene died?  That's BS.

 

This is the reason that he originally wanted to burn the notes.

This is patently absurd.  Robert had notes and a clear vision for where he wanted the story to conclude and Brandon's job was to get it there as closely as possible.  I think Robert takes more than a majority of the blame for the conclusion falling short.  And it did fall short.  

[Vambram]

I believe that the ending as written by RJ was perfect. To me, it did not fall short at all.

[rane008]

I believe that the ending as written by RJ was perfect. To me, it did not fall short at all.

Explain.  How do you think it was perfect?

[Vambram]

The ending had stuff in there that was expected and foreshadowed, plus there was a few things in there which caught me a little by surprise. To me, that is perfect.

[Ashaman Valen]

Now I'm not saying BS shouldn't be critiqued. I appreciate this thread where we can discuss the quality of amol. I agree with a lot of the flaws that were presented. I just think some people go a little overboard. That just tells me people's expectations were too high to be so emotional and not take it for what it is. No one could have finished it on the same level as RJ but I think BS did a good job nonetheless.

Looks guys, Robert created an epic and complex world.  The ending should have been equally epic and complex, if not more so.  This is not "too high expectations"--it's actually the expectation for which we were prepared.  And a good job nonetheless is just an apologist's way of saying at least we get an ending.  I don't agree with that. 

 

So was your expectation that of BS presenting the same quality as RJ? Idk man, I just think your expectations got in the way of enjoying amol for what it is. But at the same time I understand how you feel. Amol could have been so much better in hands of RJ.

[rane008]

 

 

 

Now I'm not saying BS shouldn't be critiqued. I appreciate this thread where we can discuss the quality of amol. I agree with a lot of the flaws that were presented. I just think some people go a little overboard. That just tells me people's expectations were too high to be so emotional and not take it for what it is. No one could have finished it on the same level as RJ but I think BS did a good job nonetheless.

Looks guys, Robert created an epic and complex world.  The ending should have been equally epic and complex, if not more so.  This is not "too high expectations"--it's actually the expectation for which we were prepared.  And a good job nonetheless is just an apologist's way of saying at least we get an ending.  I don't agree with that. 

 

So was your expectation that of BS presenting the same quality as RJ? Idk man, I just think your expectations got in the way of enjoying amol for what it is. But at the same time I understand how you feel. Amol could have been so much better in hands of RJ.

And you know what?  At this point, given the choice, I may prefer that it was never written.  At least then the mystery would survive.  

[Ashaman Valen]

 

 

Now I'm not saying BS shouldn't be critiqued. I appreciate this thread where we can discuss the quality of amol. I agree with a lot of the flaws that were presented. I just think some people go a little overboard. That just tells me people's expectations were too high to be so emotional and not take it for what it is. No one could have finished it on the same level as RJ but I think BS did a good job nonetheless.

Looks guys, Robert created an epic and complex world.  The ending should have been equally epic and complex, if not more so.  This is not "too high expectations"--it's actually the expectation for which we were prepared.  And a good job nonetheless is just an apologist's way of saying at least we get an ending.  I don't agree with that. 

 

 

So was your expectation that of BS presenting the same quality as RJ? Idk man, I just think your expectations got in the way of enjoying amol for what it is. But at the same time I understand how you feel. Amol could have been so much better in hands of RJ.

And you know what?  At this point, given the choice, I may prefer that it was never written.  At least then the mystery would survive.  

Fair enough. I respect that.

[Livia]

Sometimes I do discern a difference between the writing of RJ and BS. But the truth is, neither writer was done justice in this book because the pacing is completely foreign to the slow, inside-the-head-of-every-character epic that we were patient enough to wait 14 books for to learn the ending of. There's some justification for speeding up the pace during the Last Battle, but the truth is, we probably needed at least another 500 pages to be fully satisfied. No last moments for Siuan, Gareth, so many characters through whose eyes we were used to viewing Randland. Not. Enough. Space. Would've waited another year or two for satisfaction - not all issues or characters needed to be fully resolved, but it is incomplete.

[a_lily_in_winter]

My two cents, for what that is worth. I picked up the book and was enthralled from the beginning to the end. On the other hand, I have no desire to read any of it ever again. For in my opinion, AMoL, is hands down, by far the worst book in the series, but probably not for the reason that most people would give.

 

I definitely don't want to add to the pile of crap that is thrown against either BS or RJ. (Although, I will say that at least a portion of the problem was how certain things were set up in the series. One example of this in my opinion is that RJ chose to surprise us about Demandred's activity in Shara instead of building up suspense, but that is not my main point.)

 

What I think went wrong in AMoL has nothing to do with who made the mistakes or why, but what exactly is wrong with the story. For in my opinion, what is most wrong with AMoL is that BS (and to some extent RJ) gave us exactly what we have been loudly demanding for all these years. By us I mean plenty of the people on this board and similar boards.

 

We have been demanding more actions scenes and more capable villains and more Mat being a general. In aMoL, BS, gave us all that in spades. BS gave us exactly what we thought we wanted, a testosterone fueled, action packed, blood soaked killing frenzy.  Even better it had none of the scenes that we so detested, there were no bath scenes or long internal monologues, etc.  and Faile did not wash a single piece of silk. But it turns out that what we really wanted, or it could be just me, was something completely different.

 

As an illustration of what I am saying let me compare the 'Last Battle' chapter to the battle at the cleansing of Saidin in WH. In WH, RJ gave us very short battle scenes with little or no action. We got the beginning of each battle, which usually went something on the order of hmm... look there is someone who is probably a bad guy, maybe I should attack followed quickly by OH CRAP, before it cuts to another scenes like it. We hardly see ANY of the action only the beginning for the OH CRAP moment and the end to mourn the dead and celebrate the costly victory. On the other hand, the Last Battle, in AMoL chapter gives us what we thought we wanted, blow by blow account covering every major character, etc. I realize that the scope of the Last Battle is just a little bit larger that the scope of the cleansing, but I stand by my point.

 

In my opinion, aMoL failed because it was missing the scenes, that we thought we didn't want. The Last Battle could have been cut in half and the space used to develop important story arcs such as the subversion of the great generals, (did anyone ever explain why Gareth Bryne was just as easy to subvert despite the warder bond or why nobody caught anything sooner.) Another important arc that could have been developed is the cracks in the reality and how Egwene discovered how to fill them and her discovery of the anti-balefire weave. Other people would add to the list, but in the end it really doesn't matter which arcs BS chose to develop.

 

I am sorry if it sounds like I am criticizing either BS or Harriet for choosing him. I don't know what the exact reason for this flaw is and in the end I don't care. I could just as easily argue that it was RJs fault for pushing all the action to the end, because he did not truly know how to develop toward the action.

 

In the end the lesson of aMoL,though, is to be careful of what you wish for, you just might get it.

[a_lily_in_winter]

Sometimes I do discern a difference between the writing of RJ and BS. But the truth is, neither writer was done justice in this book because the pacing is completely foreign to the slow, inside-the-head-of-every-character epic that we were patient enough to wait 14 books for to learn the ending of. There's some justification for speeding up the pace during the Last Battle, but the truth is, we probably needed at least another 500 pages to be fully satisfied. No last moments for Siuan, Gareth, so many characters through whose eyes we were used to viewing Randland. Not. Enough. Space. Would've waited another year or two for satisfaction - not all issues or characters needed to be fully resolved, but it is incomplete.

You said in one paragraph what I struggled to say in my meandering post. Thanks. (To top it off you did it while I was thinking about my post.)

[yllek1]

In my humble opinion, the entire series is the BEST STORY EVER.  The last three books weren't written by the master; they were written by a very good author to whom I'm grateful for brining the story to it's conclusion.  In reference to the previous post, a very good point is made that the last book was missing the dialoge and it misses something for that.  I've always liked the dialoge though.  Remember how mad everyone was when the 'last book' turned into the last 3 books?  As far as I'm concerned, for the Last Battle to have been written they way I'd have liked to have read them, AMOL would have taken another 3 books. 

[Hrothgordo]

My apologies to Vin21 and others but I think there is a lot to complain about in this book.

 

I believe someone earlier in the thread compared it to the Phantom Menace, and I think that is appropriate. That film was an acceptable popcorn flick but an absolute abomination of a Star Wars movie; which basically abandoned the rules and history of the universe in an effort to shoe-horn in popular characters and new toy products.

 

AMOL is a decent fantasy book but a terrible WoT novel. The characters seem to be motivated by either a need to answer question posed by the fan community or simply to get to a later scene in the book based on a note from RJ.

 

To me this isn’t about the resolution to the Rand/DO arc, which was I found acceptable. It’s about my complete inability to immerse myself in the book, due to the characters and world being totally different than previous novels.

 

 

ANDROL/PEVERA

The only arc of Light-side characters actually coming together and a return to equality between men and woman. Unfortunately, they are faced with two problems:

 

1. The rather lame resolution to the Black Tower.

2. Androl comes off as the hero character from another book series. He was BS saying “look at the cool things I thought to do with gateways”.

 

DEMANDRED

If you are billed to be a master strategist it would be worthwhile if you did anything intelligent or even consistent as a general.

 

I started out annoyed that he didn’t wait for Rand at Shayol Ghul ,but became very perplexed when he goes to Merrilor to fight the Light on the ground of their choosing instead of raiding the various cities (an effective strategy that he actually starts the book using).

 

Then we get not 1 but 3 cases where Light-side characters magically make their way to Demandred untouched, are accepted into personal duels.

 

RJ has effectively told us, through Thom, that no general would participate in duels like this. I guess it was more important to answer a question from us fans on who was the best swordsman.

 

And in all 3 cases the Light-side character is able to escape despite losing or being mortally wounded. People may be upset about “cheap” deaths like Rhuarc and Bashere but I am much more annoyed with “cheap” inexplicable saves like this.

 

FAILE

Another “cheap” save, who was in a storyline that had no reason to exist. There was no reason for the delivery of the Horn to be that difficult especially since the whole thing is conceived with Perrin in the room (a guy who can tell you where Mat is at that moment).

 

Made even worse by the whole fact that Mat isn’t even tied to the Horn.

 

GAUL

Okay so Perrin decides to take a guy off the field of battle where he can be useful and into the dream where he should be useless. Not only does he somehow not get killed by the Slayer but also survives hours on his own while taking out a bunch of channeling red-veils.

 

PADAN FAIN

That was the resolution you came up with to this guy. I understand he isn’t a fan favorite but that was like the gholam slipping on a banana peel and falling into a stedding.

 

MOIRAINE

Seriously, you couldn’t come up with anything. If regurgitating some bits of prophecy to “save” the Dragon’s Peace is really her contribution, then I need to go punch a baby now.

[a_lily_in_winter]

Sometimes I do discern a difference between the writing of RJ and BS. But the truth is, neither writer was done justice in this book because the pacing is completely foreign to the slow, inside-the-head-of-every-character epic that we were patient enough to wait 14 books for to learn the ending of. There's some justification for speeding up the pace during the Last Battle, but the truth is, we probably needed at least another 500 pages to be fully satisfied. No last moments for Siuan, Gareth, so many characters through whose eyes we were used to viewing Randland. Not. Enough. Space. Would've waited another year or two for satisfaction - not all issues or characters needed to be fully resolved, but it is incomplete.

 

Also, while I am thinking of it, do you think that that drastic speeding up was inevitable. Was the slow, inside of the head of every character model sustainable for the entire series? In other words, do you really think that another 500 pages would be enough to keep the same character?  I don't know, myself.

[a_lily_in_winter]

My apologies to Vin21 and others but I think there is a lot to complain about in this book.

 

I believe someone earlier in the thread compared it to the Phantom Menace, and I think that is appropriate. That film was an acceptable popcorn flick but an absolute abomination of a Star Wars movie; which basically abandoned the rules and history of the universe in an effort to shoe-horn in popular characters and new toy products.

 

AMOL is a decent fantasy book but a terrible WoT novel. The characters seem to be motivated by either a need to answer question posed by the fan community or simply to get to a later scene in the book based on a note from RJ.

 

To me this isn’t about the resolution to the Rand/DO arc, which was I found acceptable. It’s about my complete inability to immerse myself in the book, due to the characters and world being totally different than previous novels.

 

 

ANDROL/PEVERA

The only arc of Light-side characters actually coming together and a return to equality between men and woman. Unfortunately, they are faced with two problems:

 

1. The rather lame resolution to the Black Tower.

2. Androl comes off as the hero character from another book series. He was BS saying “look at the cool things I thought to do with gateways”.

 

DEMANDRED

If you are billed to be a master strategist it would be worthwhile if you did anything intelligent or even consistent as a general.

 

I started out annoyed that he didn’t wait for Rand at Shayol Ghul ,but became very perplexed when he goes to Merrilor to fight the Light on the ground of their choosing instead of raiding the various cities (an effective strategy that he actually starts the book using).

 

Then we get not 1 but 3 cases where Light-side characters magically make their way to Demandred untouched, are accepted into personal duels.

 

RJ has effectively told us, through Thom, that no general would participate in duels like this. I guess it was more important to answer a question from us fans on who was the best swordsman.

 

And in all 3 cases the Light-side character is able to escape despite losing or being mortally wounded. People may be upset about “cheap” deaths like Rhuarc and Bashere but I am much more annoyed with “cheap” inexplicable saves like this.

 

FAILE

Another “cheap” save, who was in a storyline that had no reason to exist. There was no reason for the delivery of the Horn to be that difficult especially since the whole thing is conceived with Perrin in the room (a guy who can tell you where Mat is at that moment).

 

Made even worse by the whole fact that Mat isn’t even tied to the Horn.

 

GAUL

Okay so Perrin decides to take a guy off the field of battle where he can be useful and into the dream where he should be useless. Not only does he somehow not get killed by the Slayer but also survives hours on his own while taking out a bunch of channeling red-veils.

 

PADAN FAIN

That was the resolution you came up with to this guy. I understand he isn’t a fan favorite but that was like the gholam slipping on a banana peel and falling into a stedding.

 

MOIRAINE

Seriously, you couldn’t come up with anything. If regurgitating some bits of prophecy to “save” the Dragon’s Peace is really her contribution, then I need to go punch a baby now.

 

I second the Demandred thread as really bad. I think the Faile thread had a lot of potential, but the way that it was written Faile should have died. I don't have a problem with Elayne's reasoning. They should either do this on the QT or go all out guns blazing. What I have a problem with is that it doesn't really explain why or how Faile was sent into the blight. Was it simply a random pattern inspired event? or was it a DO inspired event? It hardly seems that it could be planned by the dark side; they would certainly be more effective. Unlike you, I love that fact that all their effort to get it to Mat was useless since it wasn't bonded to Mat. I also like the ending. Olver like Mat sounded the horn not for glory but for salvation.

 

I don't have a problem with Gaul, because he really isn't that important of a character and because not all red veils can channel and channeling can get you fried there, by the DO.

 

With Fain, I don't have a problem with bad guys dying ignominious deaths. The idea that Mat developed an immunity to him is patently false. Rand's wound from Padan Fain throbbed even worse. Perhaps Mat's immunity came from the warding given to him by the AS.

 

I agree whole-heartedly about Moiraine.

 

I would like to add to your list of gateway tricks to include any number of chanelers who suddenly developed gateway tricks. It was like BS decided to see how many of them he could make.

 

To your list of threads that work, I would like to add Perrin's half of the Perrin/Lanfear thread. The ending was lame, though.

 

To you list of lame threads I would like to add the subverting of the great generals. That had great potential for suspense but was wasted as was Elayne thread arc.

[rane008]

Regarding Demandred: He is so convinced that Mat is Lews Therin.  But that makes abso-fu*king-lutey no sense.  The Shadow knows about Mat, knows he's a ta'veren, knows that he is a strategist of some renown.  NO SENSE.  Big hole.  huge

[Centauri25]

If any of you have seen the movie Big Fish, this ending reminded me of that. I am not convinced there was ever a clear path from KOD to the epilogue of AMOL. Someone needed to step in a fill it all out.

[Sabio]

Regarding Demandred: He is so convinced that Mat is Lews Therin.  But that makes abso-fu*king-lutey no sense.  The Shadow knows about Mat, knows he's a ta'veren, knows that he is a strategist of some renown.  NO SENSE.  Big hole.  huge

They have no idea he has all those memories in his head making him an awesome general.  The shadow has no idea about his skills, just he is a tavern and leads a mercenary group.  Very few people know of Mats abilities.  Since he was matching Demandred move for move, Dem assumed it must be LTT.  The forsaken are always thinking back to the AOL times.  They don't respect this age or the peoples abilities, to them the current age is a bunch of backward savages.   

[papertiger]

@ A Lily in Winter:

 

You nailed it. Team Jordan is responsible for this; Sanderson is just a hired gun.

 

----------------------------------------------

 

"What I think went wrong in AMoL has nothing to do with who made the mistakes or why, but what exactly is wrong with the story. For in my opinion, what is most wrong with AMoL is that BS (and to some extent RJ) gave us exactly what we have been loudly demanding for all these years. By us I mean plenty of the people on this board and similar boards.

 

We have been demanding more actions scenes and more capable villains and more Mat being a general. In aMoL, BS, gave us all that in spades. BS gave us exactly what we thought we wanted, a testosterone fueled, action packed, blood soaked killing frenzy.  Even better it had none of the scenes that we so detested, there were no bath scenes or long internal monologues, etc.  and Faile did not wash a single piece of silk. But it turns out that what we really wanted, or it could be just me, was something completely different."