Asmodean

[staven2228]

Did anyone ever figure out who killed Asmodean?

[clutzyninja]

I believe it is still a subject of great debate.  I for one have no idea.  I vote Professor plumb in the library with the candlestick.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Graendal. 

 

It can be figured out from the text, but they confirmed it in the Glossary of Towers of Midnight. 

[clutzyninja]

Bah, I never read the glossary, shame on me.

[staven2228]

Wow thank you I had wondered over this for a while after finishing the last book.

[EmperorAllspice]

Graendal. 

 

It can be figured out from the text, but they confirmed it in the Glossary of Towers of Midnight. 

How exactly can you figure it out from the text?

 

Which text are you refering to?

[Barid Bel Medar]

The series. 

 

It's not an "well that was obvious" thing, but it is possible. 

 

First indication is before the actual event. 

 

• Rahvin, Lanfear, Sammael, and Graendal meet in Rahvin's quarters in the Royal Palace in Caemlyn. Lanfear proposes that the four of them work together to control Rand. (TFoH,Prologue)

As mentioned, Lanfear proposes a plan to trap Rand etc.. That's the first step. 

 

• Graendal, Rahvin, Sammael, and Lanfear plan to trap Rand. Sammael waffles because he is to be the bait while the other three wait linked. (TFoH,Ch34)

Here, the plan is extrapolated, Rhavin Lanfear and Graendal will link and wait using Sammael as bait. 

 

 Moghedien tells Nynaeve that Graendal, Lanfear, Rahvin and Sammael are plotting against Rand. They will draw him to Sammael and the others will be waiting. At least Rahvin and Graendal will. She thinks Lanfear has other plans.

 

Bold is mine. Sammael isn't keen to be used as bait, Lanfear is doing her own thing, and Moghedien is captured, which makes her accounted for. 

 

The events go that Rand targets Rahvin, not Sammael, and Rahvin is killed. 

 

The indication here is that Rahvin and Graendal are waiting for Rand to attack Sammael, making them the ones in Caemlyn. 

 

Asmodean recognises the person who kills him, and is surprised and terrified. The only people he would be surprised and terrified to find are Moiraine, Lanfear, Rahvin or one of the other Chosen.

 

After Asmodean's death: 

 

• LoC,Ch6 - Sammael asks Graendal where Asmodean and Lanfear are. Graendal says she thinks Rand killed them.
• LoC,Ch23 - Sammael again asks Graendal where Asmodean and Lanfear are. Graendal says they are dead. Sammael tells her to show him the bodies.

Sammael asks twice about Asmodean, and Graendal is sure they are dead. Only Graendal ever mentions the fate of Asmodean. Demandred isn't sure in his chat with the DO, and obviously Sammael doesn't. None of the other Forsaken talk about him. 

 

Finally; 

 

• After Sammael's disappearance Graendal visits his quarters and acquires a gold ring angreal attuned to women. (TPoD,Ch12)

Here we see Graendal's habit. After Ravhin died, in an operation she was supposed to be involved in, she went searching through Caemlyn for anything Rahvin left over. Hence, when Asmodean entered the cupboard, he found Graendal sneaking around, and she killed him. 

 

(This is backed up by RJ saying that the death was incidental, not a planned murder.) 

 

That's where RJ said we could figure it out. I'm probably missing other clues, but they are the major ones. 

 

We get more direct hints in ToM; 

 

In Chapter 5, when Moridin confronts Graendal about the death of Aran'gar, he says she is making it a habit.

 

In the Epilogue Shaidar Haran says "Mesaana has fallen," Shaidar Haran whispered. "Three chosen, destroyed by your actions." 

 

(The three being Mesaana, Aran'gar and Asmodean.)

 

Finally, we get the confrimation in the Glossary under Graendal: "A ruthless killer, she was responsible for the deaths of Aran'gar and Asmodean..."

[EmperorAllspice]

Wait, what. Graendal kills Mesaana too?

 

Dammit, people keep expecting me to like this woman

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well, that is a bit unfair on Graendal, She doesn't kill Mesaana. Shaidar Haran blames her for it but it really wasn't her fault

 

Perrin takes a ter'angreal off Slayer (who is working for Graendal) that prevents Mesaana from escaping TaR, and is killed by Egwene. 

 

So that's pretty harsh to say she caused it. 

[EmperorAllspice]

Then again, this is the dark one. The guy who called Rahvin a failure.

 

Hey dude, Rahvin kicks ass. He probably put up the best fight out of any Forsaken that I've seen so far. and actually prepared for Lanfear's inevitable betrayal.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah, the Dark One is a bit of an ass. 

 

Look what he did to Moghedien, not the greatest way to treat your Chosen warriors. She didn't do THAT badly. 

[EmperorAllspice]

Speaking of Asmodean. Why is he a Chosen. Rather than just a Darkfriend or a Dreadlord?

 

I understand why he's a Chosen NOW. (knowledge of the AoL, one of the only active Shadow Male Chanelers for a while) but back in the AoL. What was so special about him that he was allowed to be one of the DO's elite. (I know there were more Chosen than those 13 but I assume it was still a more illustrious position than being a standard Darkfriend)

[Barid Bel Medar]

Dreadlord is a 3rd Age term. 

 

ALL channelers who served the Shadow in the AoL were called the Forsaken, and they all called themselves the Chosen. 

 

The 13 that were sealed were not the greatest of all. 

 

Only Ishamael, Lanfear, Demandred, Graendal Semirhage and Sammael were in the top ranks of the AoL. 

[EmperorAllspice]

Semirhage is top ranked?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Semirhage was crazy and Powerful. She slaughtered the entire Seanchan royal line and plunged a contient into chaos. 

 

In the AoL, she possibly the most feared person in the world. She tortured and turned the strongest wills to the Shadow. She was the one who invented the 13x13 technique. 

 

She even served as a commander in some battles. 

 

She was pretty tops for a Forsaken. Her 3rd Age exploits aren't that great. 

[EmperorAllspice]

uh huh (glares at Cad's Paralis-net and disgustedly mouths the words "that thing")

[clutzyninja]

Dreadlord is a 3rd Age term. 

 

ALL channelers who served the Shadow in the AoL were called the Forsaken, and they all called themselves the Chosen. 

 

The 13 that were sealed were not the greatest of all. 

 

Only Ishamael, Lanfear, Demandred, Graendal Semirhage and Sammael were in the top ranks of the AoL. 

Woah woah...what?

If that's right, I totally misinterpretted the books in my reading.  I have been under the impression for all the books that channelers on the DO's side were dreadlords, and the Forsaken/chosen were the 13 most powerful.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well that is correct in terms of the books. Since there are only 13 Forsaken left, and all the other channelers are now called Dreadlords. There was no mention of the difference in names in the book IIRC, it was RJ who made that clear in an interview. So it's not an interpretation problem. 

[EmperorAllspice]

So what are Asmodean's talents? Like as a Darkfriend and as a Chaneler?

[Barid Bel Medar]

I don't know. But all of the Chosen had Talents, or else they died. That Asmodean survived to be sealed is a testament to his skill. Unfortunately, all we hear is what he is terrible at, and most of the time he is shielded by lanfear, unable to do much with the Power. 

 

But he was talented. He fought in several battles for the Shadow. He served as an effective administrator. He wasn't totally useless. 

[jedman67]

Are Dreadlords any darkfriend channeler? It seems that Dreadlord can be a title, like Army Commander or something

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

INTERVIEW: Jan 25th, 2005

TOR Questions of the Week Part II (Verbatim)

ROBERT JORDAN

First off, Dreadlords was the name given to men and women who could channel and sided with the Shadow in the Trolloc Wars. Yes, the women were called Dreadlords, too. They might have liked to call themselves "the Chosen," like the Forsaken, but feared to. The real Forsaken might not have appreciated it when they returned, as prophecies of the Shadow foretold would happen. Some of the Dreadlords had authority and responsibility equivalent to that of the Forsaken in the War of the Shadow, however. They ran the Shadow's side of the Trolloc Wars, though without the inherent ability to command the Myrddraal that the Forsaken possess, meaning they had to negotiate with them. Overall command at the beginning was in another's hands.

 

Forsaken was the name given to Aes Sedai who went over to the Shadow in the War of the Shadow at the end of the Age of Legends, though of course, they called themselves the Chosen, and despite the tales of the "current" Age, there were many more than a few of them. Since they occupied all sorts of levels, you might say that many were equivalent to some of the lesser Dreadlords, but it would be incorrect to call them so. At the time, they were all Forsaken—or Chosen—from the greatest to the least.

 

Some of those Forsaken the Dark One killed were every bit as high-ranking as the thirteen who were remembered, and who you might say constituted a large part of the Dark One's General Staff at the time of the sealing. With the Forsaken, where treachery and backstabbing were an acceptable way of getting ahead, the turnover in the upper ranks was fairly high, though Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Graendal, Semirhage, and later Sammael, were always at the top end of the pyramid. They were very skilled at personal survival, politically and physically.

 

In large part the thirteen were remembered because they were trapped at Shayol Ghul, and so their names became part of that story, though it turned out that details of them, stories of them, survived wide-spread knowledge of the tale of the actual sealing itself. Just that they had been sealed away. Other Forsaken were left behind, so to speak, free but in a world that was rapidly sliding down the tube. The men eventually went mad and died from the same taint that killed off the other male Aes Sedai. They had no access to the Dark One's protective filters. The women died, too, though from age or in battle or from natural disasters created by insane male Aes Sedai or from diseases that could no longer be controlled because civilization itself had been destroyed and access to those who were skilled in Healing was all but gone. And soon after their deaths, their names were forgotten, except for what might possibly be discovered in some ancient manuscript fragment that survived the Breaking. A bleak story of people who deserved no better, and not worth telling in any detail.

 

 

 

[EmperorAllspice]

Isn't Sammael called a fool by everyone? Now, I love the guy, I think he's really smart. But he doesn't seem like the sort who'd be an excellent politician.

[Barid Bel Medar]

He was smarter than the others thought he was. He managed to trick Graendal. 

 

However, Sammael WAS a fool, he was just a very powerful one that the DO made use of. 

 

Edit: Well, he wasn't really a fool. He was a smart guy, but reckless and extremely aggressive in his hatred towards Rand. 

 

Unlike Demandred - who's hatred is cold and calculating - Sammael was the type who was eager to attack. 

[Suttree]

Unlike Demandred - who's hatred is cold and calculating - Sammael was the type who was eager to attack.

 

See my sig for thoughts on the version of Demy we got in AMoL.