August 9, 2013: CONCLUDED

[hazelkrs1]

First things first before I respond to that Serra: don't hold town hostage. You're at L-3 with less than a day before deadline.

 

Give us a claim.

[serra]

I'd really rather not, but I suppose I don't have much choice: I'm the Busdriver in this thread.

 

 

N1 I drove dap and leelou

 

N2 I drove chuckles and desp

 

N3 I drove chuckles and desp

 

 

I hope you now realise why I wanted the BPV to claim?

[hazelkrs1]

Hmmm. Contemplating. That would actually make sense for why you would have wanted the BPV to claim (I forgot about the Bus Driver when I was thinking about what you could have been softclaiming... and that WAS a soft claim btw). Those NA's aren't terrible either, don't seem too convenient, seem fairly plausible enough. You got our Vig killed N1 if you're telling the truth, in favor of keeping Dap alive most likely. Actually that makes that somewhat convenient. Makes it seem like mafia targeted Dap 2 diff nights. Don't see why they would have felt that threatened by him.

 

When did Chuckles claim? Why did you Drive me and him N2? I could understand last night, but why N2?

 

Gonna respond to your stuff while you answer that.

[serra]

I'll find where chuckles claimed, but I'm sure it was D2.

 

And of course that was a soft claim, but I'm not going to admit that without fully claiming, now am I? 

[serra]

Here we go:

 

 

honestly i dont want to waste a day on people going back and forth cuz of me, im town cop 

 

and is lily in the game?!!

 

id go with krak tbh, 

 

[serra]

Which was before this VC: which was D2 where we lynched peace:

 

 

Tempting, but I'll pass.

 

 

 

Official Vote Count:

BG (1/10): Serra
Peace (6/10): Hally, Len, BG, Dap, Tina, Cloud
Tiink (1/10): Rorschache
Ishy (1/10):Verb
Chuckles (1/10): Razen

Serra (2/10): Peace, Des

 

Not Voting (7/19):
Chuckles, Yates, Krak, Ree, Ishy, Tiink, Nol

21.5 hours
http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130722T19&p0=745

 

[Pralaya]

Alright, now it is clear. Serra is not the bus driver. I am.

Unless there are two, which I don't think is the case, considering the other threads.

 

vote serra

[serra]

Ugh, that's why I hate claiming at LyLo :/

 

Scum will cc anything, as it only takes my lynch to win it...

 

VOTE: Pralaya

 

That probably means Tink is scum too, otherwise scum should be happy to default to lynching Tink.

[serra]

Also, I'd really appreciate it if someone could unvote so I don't get quickhammered...

[Pralaya]

My three actions were:

 

N1: Chuckles and Tink

N2: Chuckles and Tink

N3: Chuckles and Ishy

[serra]

Chuckles hadn't claimed D1...

[Pralaya]

Well, you are looking a bit desperate to get unvoted.

 

No, Chuckles did not claim in D1 but I had a doubt about TInker even in Day 1 and based my action on this

 

 

 

 

FINAL VOTE COUNT:

Salami (12/12): Nol, Yates, Verb, Leelou, Razen, Cloud, Peace, Dap, Des, Serra, Tina, Lenlo
Hally (1/12): Krak
Yates (1/12): Crush

Leelou (1/12): Ree

Chuckles (2/12): Tiink, Salami

Not Voting (7/23): 
Chuckles, Mish, Hally, Ishy, Tina, Laya, BG
 

 

[bgrishinko]

Unvote

 

We've got 14 hours. I'm willing to think this through.

[serra]

You should really have gotten your night actions in order before cc'ing me.

 

Even if you thought Tink was scummy, chuckles just wasn't very townie, so it would have made no sense to target him.

[Pralaya]

I had no reasons to see how Chuckles was scummy in D1.

[hazelkrs1]

Okay Serra. At least you're posting again. That's a good mark in your favor. The Bus Driver claim also kind of justifies your theory to out the BPV (but not the mass claim breadcrumb, mind you).

 

But, I still have concerns, even new ones that were brought up in your response to my case.

 

1. Why did you flip flop so fully on me? You seemed sure that I was scum yesterday, and claimed to have Driven me with the Cop two nights in a row, putting me in danger possibly (or also putting the Cop in danger if they had targeted me). Now you seem sure that I am town. Why?

 

2. I see multiple cases of AtE in that big post of yours. The first big paragraph is a huge example, playing the remorseful townie angle, overplaying the apology somewhat. You even AtE to me directly there. You make a second direct AtE to me when you appeal to my ego and invite me to MS. Incidentally, I prob would like to check it out sometime over there. But you slipping that invite in there seems like AtE to me, considering I'm probably the biggest pusher of your lynch today. You then AtE at the end again when you bemoan the 72 hour days, and say "Please don't lynch me because you disagree with my theoretical style of play" which both belittles the case on you to one thing, which is incorrect, and also makes you seem the victim.

 

3. You're right, it wasn't even worth pointing out that you defended Yates.

 

4. I could understand if you had put a qualifier on the town read on Lenlo, like say he was slightly town, or townish, but what you pointed out was NOT enough to have an out and out full town read on him. You simply state that he's town. Makes it worse that I find him likely to be scum at this point.

 

5. You can't say you have a scum read on both BG and Peace in that post, since those ideas would have contradicted eachother. You said BG was either scum with Csarlami in this game, or scum in the other games. You said Peace could be scum if Csarlami was town. Ergo, it wouldn't work in the scenarios you laid out to think that BG and Peace could both be scum in this game. So essentially, you had one scum read in that post (either BG or Peace), and like 5-6 town reads. That seems questionable to me.

 

6. Apparently it WAS a softclaim, but meh, your Driver claim does cover the BPV outing thing.

 

7. You address Yates' ties to you once... and not very well. Firstly, you simply state that if you were scum, he would have bussed you. This is apparently based off his meta, unfortunately for you the two games I have seen Yates as scum so far, he defended teammates in both rather overtly, in one to an enormous degree. He wasn't a busser at all in either game. So the meta I have on him so far contradicts what you're saying. Moreover, you saying what he would likely do is something that pretty much can't really be established easily since you are both from a different site.

 

But either way, the short manner in which you dismiss the connection, after I pointed out several examples of him defending you, and doing so opportunistically, makes it seem like you just wanna roll over this point. This is a rather HUGE part of my case against you however.

 

8. As for the point about you not catching up yet, eh I'm willing to give this to you. At first your defense still seemed questionable to me, since it seemed like you apparently had more info at the time than you let on, but I suppose it's plausible you could have just gone to the last page, seen there was a VC, and skimmed that page real quick.

 

9. I disagree with you that it's ALWAYS better to lynch than No Lynch, but that could easily be just difference in opinion. Still, even if you had justification for it, feeling the need to provide the justification like that still seems questionable, when it looks like you giving yourself an out for helping to lynch someone you think of as town.

 

10. Your argument for lynching Krak instead of yourself is pretty sad, when it essentially amounts to one quote, whereas the evidence against you is much more significant imo.

 

---

 

The major points I'd like you to readdress in this is the stuff I pointed out about your AtE, your flip flop on me, a better explanation for the reads you had in that one post (why there was enough to clear Lenlo as town, and why you tried spinning it like you had scum reads on both BG and Peace in it), a MUCH more elaborate response on Yates' buddying to you, and more evidence/reasoning for why we should lynch Krak INSTEAD of you.

[hazelkrs1]

Oooh wow was ninja'd by a CC.

 

I believe it too. Came too fast for it to have been scum-motivated imo. Rorschach is way too inexperienced to have known it would be a good idea to cc like that, and it came too quickly for it to have been coached.

[hazelkrs1]

Also, Bus Driver could have easily been rehearsed as a fake claim on the QT, since that would justify him advocating the BPV to be outed.

 

Plus there's all that AtE in that post of his, and the other stuff I pointed out.

 

As for NA's, I don't think scum-Rorschach would make such a bold claim like Chuckles-Tink N1, knowing that would stand out more. He had his reasoning for the move ready instantly. Plus, it's no more convenient than claiming to Drive Leelou and Dap N1, which would have made it so that mafia targeted Dap two diff nights. I don't buy that.

 

BG, hop back on. We're riding this scum down.

[serra]

I always coach my team to immediately CC in LyLo for that exact reason. If there's 1 decent scum left he'll have told Pralaya to do the same. Yates would almost certainly have

 

1. In short: your few posts at the beginning of the day probably make you town. I'll address this more fully in endgame if you'd like.

 

2. Tell me more about how AtE is used by exclusively by scum. Again, THIS IS LYLO.

 

4. That early on, I didn't really feel the need to qualify my reads. You're conf-biassing here, since you're already convinced Lenlo and I are scum.

 

5. I said in that very post that "bg-scum is looking like a serious option, perhaps even without csarmi-scum"...

 

7. What would you like me to say about Yates? I'm afraid I can't retroactively justify his actions, except as him buddying me so I don't grow suspicious of him. As to him defending buddies, do check some games on MS, I suppose.

 

10. I really don't have the time to go through and make a Krak case, but I think some of the points made toward him recently are valid. Him trying to explain away his complete inactivity here is bad.

[Verbal32]

Whoa.

 

 

I'm on the fence.  Believing serra makes Tiinker likely scum as well, and I'm trying not to be unduly biased about that.  The timing just is too good.

[hazelkrs1]

I always coach my team to immediately CC in LyLo for that exact reason. If there's 1 decent scum left he'll have told Pralaya to do the same. Yates would almost certainly have

Yates most likely wouldn't have been on the QT. Doubt the scum were being all careful and preparatory for all scenarios, when they were pretty much facerolling town.

 

1. In short: your few posts at the beginning of the day probably make you town. I'll address this more fully in endgame if you'd like.

Okay, then can you explain why you thought I seemed so scummy before? Or was it just OMGUS?

 

2. Tell me more about how AtE is used by exclusively by scum. Again, THIS IS LYLO.

Town might use AtE somewhat at LYLO, I'll give you that. But scum are almost assuredly more likely to use it anytime, and the way you were laying it on thick there...

 

4. That early on, I didn't really feel the need to qualify my reads. You're conf-biassing here, since you're already convinced Lenlo and I are scum.

Fair enough.

 

5. I said in that very post that "bg-scum is looking like a serious option, perhaps even without csarmi-scum"...

Eh.... I guess. Could be you were covering your bases even then too well, but meh. I'll concede this one.

 

7. What would you like me to say about Yates? I'm afraid I can't retroactively justify his actions, except as him buddying me so I don't grow suspicious of him. As to him defending buddies, do check some games on MS, I suppose.

You can't justify his actions at all, they are not your own. Why did you try to dismiss the connection so quickly however?

 

As for his meta, I don't think it specifically applies as much here. Regardless of how often he might normally bus, it still looks to me like he was being opportunistic in trying to clear you as town.

 

10. I really don't have the time to go through and make a Krak case, but I think some of the points made toward him recently are valid. Him trying to explain away his complete inactivity here is bad.

That doesn't cut it for me. Again, you have a LOT more evidence against you. I understand part of this is that Krak wasn't that active this game, but he didn't seem to be lurking as much to me. Just seemed more straight up inactive at times, which seems justifiable considering those tests he was taking a week or two ago, and the fact that he was fairly inactive in a lot of games at the same time.

 

Also, Krak scrambles a LOT more as scum when fos'd. His reactions to votes and pressure this game seems more town to me.

[Verbal32]

 

I always coach my team to immediately CC in LyLo for that exact reason. If there's 1 decent scum left he'll have told Pralaya to do the same. Yates would almost certainly have

Yates most likely wouldn't have been on the QT. Doubt the scum were being all careful and preparatory for all scenarios, when they were pretty much facerolling town.

 

1. In short: your few posts at the beginning of the day probably make you town. I'll address this more fully in endgame if you'd like.

Okay, then can you explain why you thought I seemed so scummy before? Or was it just OMGUS?

 

2. Tell me more about how AtE is used by exclusively by scum. Again, THIS IS LYLO.

Town might use AtE somewhat at LYLO, I'll give you that. But scum are almost assuredly more likely to use it anytime, and the way you were laying it on thick there...

 

4. That early on, I didn't really feel the need to qualify my reads. You're conf-biassing here, since you're already convinced Lenlo and I are scum.

Fair enough.

 

5. I said in that very post that "bg-scum is looking like a serious option, perhaps even without csarmi-scum"...

Eh.... I guess. Could be you were covering your bases even then too well, but meh. I'll concede this one.

 

7. What would you like me to say about Yates? I'm afraid I can't retroactively justify his actions, except as him buddying me so I don't grow suspicious of him. As to him defending buddies, do check some games on MS, I suppose.

You can't justify his actions at all, they are not your own. Why did you try to dismiss the connection so quickly however?

 

As for his meta, I don't think it specifically applies as much here. Regardless of how often he might normally bus, it still looks to me like he was being opportunistic in trying to clear you as town.

 

10. I really don't have the time to go through and make a Krak case, but I think some of the points made toward him recently are valid. Him trying to explain away his complete inactivity here is bad.

That doesn't cut it for me. Again, you have a LOT more evidence against you. I understand part of this is that Krak wasn't that active this game, but he didn't seem to be lurking as much to me. Just seemed more straight up inactive at times, which seems justifiable considering those tests he was taking a week or two ago, and the fact that he was fairly inactive in a lot of games at the same time.

 

Also, Krak scrambles a LOT more as scum when fos'd. His reactions to votes and pressure this game seems more town to me.

 

 

I agree with the bolded for the most part.

 

Re: AtE, I think it is more of the player, not the alignment.  Some players appeal to emotion more often than others, regardless of their alignment.  I'd call that one a null tell, personally.

[serra]

I really didn't like your D2 play, Desp. I'm sure I pointed that out somewhere. You can call it OMGUS, but it was more that I found your back-and-forth on me pretty opportunistic. However, that also somewhat required peace to be scum, so yeah...

 

What reaction would you expect to you claiming I'm connected to Yates? I'm not scum, so I'm not, but at the same time I can see why you might think that.

 

Finally: gorram I think you know the case I'm trying to make against Krak, but I'm not allowed to... Not as though it matters, since we're lynching me or Pralaya today.

[serra]

Actually, no, that's wrong.

 

I was wondering why it would be Pralaya to cc me, but I forgot there's a venge-killer, so even if he gets lynched scum probably wins.

 

I think that means we should lynch Tink.

 

VOTE: Tink

[Verbal32]

Updated VC, please.