Why do people who have the adam on seem to forget who they are?

[jedman67]

Your forgetting something. The only POV we have of suldam hurting egwene is egwenes only (biased) perspectives and once or twice, being punished for wrongdoing. The punishments are not arbitrary; there are rules for suldam and rules for damane.

Another thing is the adam allows one to feel pain that is not actually there. So it may be seen as a humane treatment (from their perspective) to make them feel pain when there is none.

[Mr Ares]

 

 

Slavery is a worse form of bondage than serfdom, especially since most of Randland seems closer to 15th century Englan with lots of small independent farmers where we have royal magistrates and a basic notion of the law. With slavery, you are property and there are no limits on what you can do to that person. It is infinitly worse for that reason. In Tear, a commoner can be accused of a crime they have't commited and be executed (laws Rand changed and which are considered exceptional).

 

The suldam make no secret of what they do to break damane. They publicly display such women on leashs and punish them as it pleases them, or if they are just sadistic. People and communities would object to women being taken away and it would be easy to learn or observe the fate of the damane; any Seanchan soldier or settler would know.

Except most aren't a party to what is done to break damane, they do not know what happens, they see only an end result, not how it is achieved.

 

 

A tiger isn't a rational creature a woman who can channel is. If the Seanchan haven't figured out that women who can channel are not rabid animals, that they talk, are no different from ordinary people and behaved completely normally without any restraints before the adam was applied then they are just simply stupid. Such a belief could only be maintained if an uncollared damane was like a man who could channel, a belief which could not possibly be maintained on meeting groups of free channelers.

And those Seanchan who have met groups of uncollared channelers can change their minds, while those who have not met them have no reason to. Which Seanchan have had reason to question the prevailing cultural belief and still refuse to? Most of them have not been given any reason to believe that AS and channelers are something other than what they have been presented as for generations. Even the AS, many of them would only further the beliefs of the Seanchan, because the only difference is these ones have learnt subtlety - they rule behind the scenes, pulling strings. That doesn't make them any less dangerous.  

 

Um, the belief of a bunch of Imperialists led by a meglomaniacal overlord who wanted to rule the world because he could? Who believed they had a right to remove the local rulers and impose their own dominion? There is no justification or logic behind that. They used the adam to benefit themselves and secure the continent; not out of any moral cause or to right any wrongs. The case could be made that dangerous taverrn like Hawkwing needed to be contained and controlled. Millions of people died because of his empire and its collapse; much less the hundreds of thousands killed and enslaved because of the Seanchan spawn which were an offshoot of it. That society is poisonous and corrupt in a literal sense whilst we see that channelling is perfectly capable of being integrated into a healthy functioning society. If they have not learned by now and have maintained such beleifs for such long against common sense and reason then they are never going to learn. They certainly need to be driven out of Randland and hopefully Semihurges actions will have destroyed their society on Senachan itself permanently.

Hawkwing's empire brought greater peace and stability to the continent than had been known since before the Trolloc Wars. That's why Ishamael had to step in and destroy it. Luthair was sent to Seanchan on a mission, and his successors followed the mission they were given. That right there is logic and justification enough. We have seen that channelers can be include din a healthy and functioning society, but when have the Seanchan seen that? And how quickly do you want their entire society to spin 180?

 

ps-  @ Mr Ares - No, I prefer when the woman holds the whip. :D

I've never seen a lot of point in that.

 

You couldn't hide that sort of practice for centuries when they are embedded in the armies, when it encompasses all of society with the recruitment and is so pervasive. Its very unlikely that people do not know what is involved. You can actually buy a damane and suldam so they probably live in peoples households. They would be aware about how they are trained and disciplined as a matter of course. So people would know that how Egwene is treated is the norm and any Randlander whose relative was taken could ask any Seanchan how its done. Theres no indication that Suldam try to cover up what they do or consider it taboo. Quite the opposite. If anything they glorify in it.

 

The average Seanchan probably has very little to do with sul'dam or damane. While they can live in people's households, it's probably only the wealthy who can afford them. Further, much of what happens is invisible - they stimulate pain directly, rather than using a whip or similar, and they use punishments that aren't based on pain as well. There's no reason the average citizen would know the ins and outs of damane training, even if they had a vague idea. Plus, even if you knew, even if you didn't like it, what are you going to do? For most people, there isn't an option besides just getting on with it or getting yourself killed or imprisoned for no gain. A lot of people will lose loved ones but lack the ability or the desire to take up arms to get them back. Especially as the Seanchan have spy networks and the ability to crush armed rebellions.

 

The Aes Sedai take oaths which sacrifice their freedom to earn the position of trust they do. They are like the Jedi Order in Star Wars and in an ideal world work towards the greater good. Encouraging peace, fighting the shadow, trying to better humanity with learning and the One Power. To try and return humanity to the Age of Legends, whose Aes Sedai they consider to be the direct successors of. If they have fallen short of those ideals or have too few sisters (and lack of male channelers) to achieve these lofty goals that does not make Aes Sedai evil or bad. Just an institution in need of being reinvigorated and put on the right track. Which Egwene is doing to a large extent. That is much more good than the Seanchan goal of world domination and spreading their ignorant barbarism.

The AS are a fallen institution, who are deeply mistrusted. The Oaths do not help with this - after all, what sort of person needs to be bound against telling untruths? Mostly, we trust others to speak truly without the restrictions they place on themselves, and then to make matters worse they spend much time subverting that Oath. "The truth you hear isn't always the truth you think you hear." The Seanchan seek a better world as well, but through different means. If history has taught us anything, it is that violence caertainly can be the answer, or at least a part of it. They are no more ignorant barbarians than anyone else in this Age, their only difference is their start point - they come from a blend of a man who deeply distrusted AS facing a continent which showed them at their worst, and a way of controlling those very women. Channelers broke the world. Channelers tore open Shai'tan's prison. That channelers certainly can be dangerous is hard to argue against. Luthair saw a problem and found a solution - his successors continue to apply that solution.

 

Tuon has seen proof and has not altered her mind when confronted with the evidence. Also, the Seanchan are descended from Hawkwings armies. They should know that the White Tower has existed for millennia in a perfectly functioning society.So they have seen it in their ancestral homeland.

The Seanchan are also descended from the people of Seanchan, who lived under the Armies of the Night. And those who came from the Westlands, well, Hawkwing's empire was hardly a great friend of the AS. As the series shows us so many times, time and distance distort the truth - a man who distrusted AS saw a continent ruled by them. A thousand years later, and they have now chained every woman who can channel for centuries. They've not seen what channelers can do off the leash, but they know their history, and there is enough bad in that history for them to be wary. Tuon has wider concerns - is it worth destroying her empire to free these few women? Especially as the right to freedom from bondage isn't something the Seanchan recognise as inalienable. Even if damane could be let off the leash, that doesn't mean it's worth it.

 

They have no right to Randland. Berelain is the rightful heir to Hawkwings Empire if it were anyone.

Hardly. Berelain is allegedly descended from Hawkwing, but that hardly gives her a pre-eminent claim over Hawkwing's other descendants, especially those who have spent the past thousand years administering his empire.

 

A woman with power is appealing. It is known. :)

Maybe so, but a whip isn't power, it's a whip.

[False Dragon1991]

 

 

The average Seanchan probably has very little to do with sul'dam or damane. While they can live in people's households, it's probably only the wealthy who can afford them. Further, much of what happens is invisible - they stimulate pain directly, rather than using a whip or similar, and they use punishments that aren't based on pain as well. There's no reason the average citizen would know the ins and outs of damane training, even if they had a vague idea. Plus, even if you knew, even if you didn't like it, what are you going to do? For most people, there isn't an option besides just getting on with it or getting yourself killed or imprisoned for no gain. A lot of people will lose loved ones but lack the ability or the desire to take up arms to get them back. Especially as the Seanchan have spy networks and the ability to crush armed rebellions.

 

The Aes Sedai take oaths which sacrifice their freedom to earn the position of trust they do. They are like the Jedi Order in Star Wars and in an ideal world work towards the greater good. Encouraging peace, fighting the shadow, trying to better humanity with learning and the One Power. To try and return humanity to the Age of Legends, whose Aes Sedai they consider to be the direct successors of. If they have fallen short of those ideals or have too few sisters (and lack of male channelers) to achieve these lofty goals that does not make Aes Sedai evil or bad. Just an institution in need of being reinvigorated and put on the right track. Which Egwene is doing to a large extent. That is much more good than the Seanchan goal of world domination and spreading their ignorant barbarism.

The AS are a fallen institution, who are deeply mistrusted. The Oaths do not help with this - after all, what sort of person needs to be bound against telling untruths? Mostly, we trust others to speak truly without the restrictions they place on themselves, and then to make matters worse they spend much time subverting that Oath. "The truth you hear isn't always the truth you think you hear." The Seanchan seek a better world as well, but through different means. If history has taught us anything, it is that violence caertainly can be the answer, or at least a part of it. They are no more ignorant barbarians than anyone else in this Age, their only difference is their start point - they come from a blend of a man who deeply distrusted AS facing a continent which showed them at their worst, and a way of controlling those very women. Channelers broke the world. Channelers tore open Shai'tan's prison. That channelers certainly can be dangerous is hard to argue against. Luthair saw a problem and found a solution - his successors continue to apply that solution.

 

 

They have no right to Randland. Berelain is the rightful heir to Hawkwings Empire if it were anyone.

Hardly. Berelain is allegedly descended from Hawkwing, but that hardly gives her a pre-eminent claim over Hawkwing's other descendants, especially those who have spent the past thousand years administering his empire.

 

A woman with power is appealing. It is known. :)

Maybe so, but a whip isn't power, it's a whip.

 

 

So a meglomaniac conquering an empire for his own selfish gain and having a petty grudge against channelers is justification for what they do? There is hypocrisy in stopping women who use the power to dominate others by then using that same power to dominate others for your own selfish gain. This is commiting the same evil, its just that Luthair was an ignorant child who didn't like the people with the real power being in charge. This shows that he was petty and felt inadequate. A pathetic man, from a pathetic line of monstrous butchers and killers that should be burnt out of the pattern. The Aes Sedai are sworn not to use the power as a weapon. This largely resolves the issue even if it is unnecessary. The Seanchan primary goal is expansion and the subjugation of those it encounters. Anything else is down to the personal character of the ruler and prone to change. Tuon is relatively benign and merciful and probably along those lines. But Suroth and the man who led the forerunners before were far from this and abused the power the system gave them. Without restraints and limits the Empire can easily slide into tyranny and evil. The Aes Sedai on the other hand are dedicated specifically to the betterment of humanity not to the selfish interests of a foreign political elite. I don't even get how you can equate the two.

 

Also, Egwene has seriously reinvigorated the Aes Sedai. Whilst the Seanchan are incapable of linking and have no men making them frankly pathetic by comparison once Egwene gets everything together. They remain the same with the same old tricks. The Aes Sedai are returning to the AoL. Which institution do you think is going to last the longest here and better humanity the most?

 

How would the Seanchan possibly know about the Dark One being released if they don't even know what an Aes Sedai is or anything about the AoL? TBH I think RJ overplays the X-men like fear of channelers. Its hard to see why such people wouldn't be viewed with superstitious awe and given positions of respect anyway. If you look at how people reacted to (obviously false) miracles and divine powers in the past it could also lead to immense followings and social power; not always witch burnings.  

 

Berelain probably is a direct descendant of Hawkwing. It would be suitably ironic if this tiny city states rulers actually were from that bloodline and is it really so ridiculous given that this is heroic high fantasy. Berelain is a smart woman, I am sure she wouldn't be so sure if there was some measure of doubt.

 

It was a metaphor.

[Suttree]

So a meglomaniac conquering an empire for his own selfish gain and having a petty grudge against channelers is justification for what they do?

 

What are you on about? You have already been told Ishy pulled the strings to get Artur to send his son to Seanchan "sealing two dooms". Further he was the one who poisoned Artur's mind against channelers. Regardless when they arrived this is what they found:

 

 

BWB

Aes Sedai, who made open use of their power, formed temporary alliances with one another, as when following one of their number who had achieved a throne, but in reality it was every woman for herself, all scheming and plotting for advancement. Indeed, this was the way of everyone, not just Aes Sedai, throughout Seanchan. Those few who were truly faithful to their word were considered fools. Assassination was the most common cause of death among Aes Sedai, and among all who achieved power.

 

Almost since the Breaking Seanchan had been a land of intrigue and nearly constant warfare. Alliances were always temporary, usually for the space of a war and often not lasting the length of it. It was not uncommon for a nation allied to one side at the beginning of the war to be allied to the other at the end, and in more than a few instances nations shifted allegiance more than once in the course of a war. No nation trusted another.

 

That suspicious, scheming division was the primary reason that Luthair Paendrag and his descendants were able to conquer all of Seanchan. Some nations allied themselves with him against others, but none remained constant. Eventually Luthair Paendrag, whom the Seanchan had begun to call the Hammer, no longer trusted any of the native-born, nor did his descendants, or the descendants of the soldiers and retainers. Luthair had brought with him, inherited from his father’s difficulties, a profound distrust for all things Aes Sedai. When he discovered the cutthroat nature of the Aes Sedai, who ruled Seanchan, that distrust grew into outright hatred.

 

, its just that Luthair was an ignorant child who didn't like the people with the real power being in charge. This shows that he was petty and felt inadequate. A pathetic man, from a pathetic line of monstrous butchers and killers that should be burnt out of the pattern.

 

How do you even come up with half this stuff you keep posting?

[False Dragon1991]

Its been pretty consistent in this series that the shadow can only corrupt people where there is already a shade of darkness to exploit. Case in point Elaida. Did Ishmael break Rand in the first few books? No. Luthair was clearly weak and took readily to Ishys suggestions even if he pushed those to an extreme. Its easy to see his base motive as being the inadequacy of a man who could not channel versus people who have incredible abilities to shape the world around them and live centuries. Why would he dispute the right of channelers to rule more than any other ruler? What gives him the right to conquer this land anyway? This man already sounds more like Cortez than a nice guy corrupted by bad forsaken. There was clearly already bad in the man if he was so easily led there.

 

I don't see why I am supposed to see a man who conquered a continent of people he saw as unwashed savages in need of his "enlightened rule" and who enslaved thousands of women so he could cement his power, all based on hypocrisy, as a victim or tragic figure? He is what he is.  

[Suttree]

Wait what? Ishy corrupted Artur Hawkwing, not his son Luthair and it was made possible by the shady actions of the Amyrlin at the time Bonwhin. Before Ishy came on the scene Artur had AS counselors and in positions of power in his government and after he refused to even be touched by the OP when it could have been used to save his life. Ishy corrupted the prophecies that went over with Luthair and knew that sending him in the first place would help bring about the fall of Artur's empire. You really need to finish the story and pay attention to the what actually happened in the history of the world before making these posts.

 

Further the series says nothing like that cocnerning corruption. Just look to compulsion and 13x13 turning for proof of that. As for Ishy breaking Rand, it didn't happen in this lifetime but the Dragon Soul HAS been turned to the shadow before.

[False Dragon1991]

I am referring to Luthair, not Arthur and casting thoughts on why he enslaved the damane. I think I mentioned briefly about the bloodline being rotten. Thats really just an exaggeration. Berelain seems like a lovely person. You said Ishy corrupted him and I was replying to that. Its only speculation, the White book is vague on his motives or personality.  

 

Those are very specific kinds of forced corruption. Subtle manipulation does require flaws and weakness IMO. Just the way it seems.

[Suttree]

I never said that Ishy corrupted Luthair(although who knows what contact they may have had), not once. Regardless the history is clear on Ishy pulling strings to get the invasion sent. Hope to say this for the last time, no one is defending the practice of leashing channelers but you go almost as far in the other direction with some of these outlandish claims.

 

As for corruption  Rand's soul has been turned to the shadow by manipulation in the past so if it's possible for the CoL it's possible for anyone.

[False Dragon1991]

Ah I misread you. Guess that means it really was down to his own personal failings then and not the influence of the forsaken. 

 

I don't see why Luthair who conquered a continent to enrich himself and his cronies and beginning the practice of collaring can be considered anything but a villain.   

[Mr Ares]

 

 

 

The average Seanchan probably has very little to do with sul'dam or damane. While they can live in people's households, it's probably only the wealthy who can afford them. Further, much of what happens is invisible - they stimulate pain directly, rather than using a whip or similar, and they use punishments that aren't based on pain as well. There's no reason the average citizen would know the ins and outs of damane training, even if they had a vague idea. Plus, even if you knew, even if you didn't like it, what are you going to do? For most people, there isn't an option besides just getting on with it or getting yourself killed or imprisoned for no gain. A lot of people will lose loved ones but lack the ability or the desire to take up arms to get them back. Especially as the Seanchan have spy networks and the ability to crush armed rebellions.

 

The Aes Sedai take oaths which sacrifice their freedom to earn the position of trust they do. They are like the Jedi Order in Star Wars and in an ideal world work towards the greater good. Encouraging peace, fighting the shadow, trying to better humanity with learning and the One Power. To try and return humanity to the Age of Legends, whose Aes Sedai they consider to be the direct successors of. If they have fallen short of those ideals or have too few sisters (and lack of male channelers) to achieve these lofty goals that does not make Aes Sedai evil or bad. Just an institution in need of being reinvigorated and put on the right track. Which Egwene is doing to a large extent. That is much more good than the Seanchan goal of world domination and spreading their ignorant barbarism.

The AS are a fallen institution, who are deeply mistrusted. The Oaths do not help with this - after all, what sort of person needs to be bound against telling untruths? Mostly, we trust others to speak truly without the restrictions they place on themselves, and then to make matters worse they spend much time subverting that Oath. "The truth you hear isn't always the truth you think you hear." The Seanchan seek a better world as well, but through different means. If history has taught us anything, it is that violence caertainly can be the answer, or at least a part of it. They are no more ignorant barbarians than anyone else in this Age, their only difference is their start point - they come from a blend of a man who deeply distrusted AS facing a continent which showed them at their worst, and a way of controlling those very women. Channelers broke the world. Channelers tore open Shai'tan's prison. That channelers certainly can be dangerous is hard to argue against. Luthair saw a problem and found a solution - his successors continue to apply that solution.

 

 

They have no right to Randland. Berelain is the rightful heir to Hawkwings Empire if it were anyone.

Hardly. Berelain is allegedly descended from Hawkwing, but that hardly gives her a pre-eminent claim over Hawkwing's other descendants, especially those who have spent the past thousand years administering his empire.

 

A woman with power is appealing. It is known. :)

Maybe so, but a whip isn't power, it's a whip.

 

 

So a meglomaniac conquering an empire for his own selfish gain and having a petty grudge against channelers is justification for what they do? There is hypocrisy in stopping women who use the power to dominate others by then using that same power to dominate others for your own selfish gain. This is commiting the same evil, its just that Luthair was an ignorant child who didn't like the people with the real power being in charge. This shows that he was petty and felt inadequate. A pathetic man, from a pathetic line of monstrous butchers and killers that should be burnt out of the pattern. The Aes Sedai are sworn not to use the power as a weapon. This largely resolves the issue even if it is unnecessary. The Seanchan primary goal is expansion and the subjugation of those it encounters. Anything else is down to the personal character of the ruler and prone to change. Tuon is relatively benign and merciful and probably along those lines. But Suroth and the man who led the forerunners before were far from this and abused the power the system gave them. Without restraints and limits the Empire can easily slide into tyranny and evil. The Aes Sedai on the other hand are dedicated specifically to the betterment of humanity not to the selfish interests of a foreign political elite. I don't even get how you can equate the two.

 

I have to agree with Suttree, this is sounding increasingly like your own invention rather than a reaction to the series. Your assessment of Luthair's character is wild extrapolation from almost no basis in fact, as we know so little of the man. The Seanchan are as much committed to the benefit of mankind as the AS. Much of what they do has more to do with extending their own dominion, their own subtle empire building than it has to do with the the betterment of anything outside themselves.

 

Also, Egwene has seriously reinvigorated the Aes Sedai. Whilst the Seanchan are incapable of linking and have no men making them frankly pathetic by comparison once Egwene gets everything together. They remain the same with the same old tricks. The Aes Sedai are returning to the AoL. Which institution do you think is going to last the longest here and better humanity the most?

Hardly relevant.

 

How would the Seanchan possibly know about the Dark One being released if they don't even know what an Aes Sedai is or anything about the AoL? TBH I think RJ overplays the X-men like fear of channelers. Its hard to see why such people wouldn't be viewed with superstitious awe and given positions of respect anyway. If you look at how people reacted to (obviously false) miracles and divine powers in the past it could also lead to immense followings and social power; not always witch burnings.

It is possible to have a middle ground between absolute knowledge and absolute ignorance. The histories passed down are flawed and imperfect, distorted over time. Seanchan's own history also provides plenty of evidence of the dark side of channelers.

 

Berelain probably is a direct descendant of Hawkwing. It would be suitably ironic if this tiny city states rulers actually were from that bloodline and is it really so ridiculous given that this is heroic high fantasy. Berelain is a smart woman, I am sure she wouldn't be so sure if there was some measure of doubt.

Berelain being a descendant is fitting, but that doesn't make it fact. Even if it were fact, that doesn't address the important point: why would her claim be pre-eminent?

 

It was a metaphor.

I don't approve of metaphors, they merely cloud the issue.

 

Subtle manipulation does require flaws and weakness IMO. Just the way it seems.

True, but everyone has flaws and weaknesses. Everyone can be manipulated, everyone can be corrupted.

[False Dragon1991]

Then how hasn't the shadow corrupted everybody if we're all equally fallible? 

 

Comparing the relative merits of the Aes Sedai and the Seanchan as to who betters humanity the most in the endgame. My monies on them. 

 

The "subtle empire" is entirely based on soft power aimed at combating the dark one. Guiding humanity towards this is not a bad thing. They're closer to the UN or the Jedi Order than some insidious force you are portraying them as. Theres only so much they can do to help human society when there are so few sisters and they lack men to help create more complex weaves and lack the ability to make ter angreal. They can't put a healer in every town or manipulate the weather to help crops grow or wards to keep insects off crops etc etc. But if you look at what Aes Sedai did during the AoL with the resources that is what happened and it made a huge difference. This is a much better world than one in which it is an empire that uses channelers as an iron fist to crush sedition and conquer other peoples. An Empire whose only reason to exist is to fund the lifestyles of its ruling elite and increase the power of said elite. This is not building a better world. Putting power in the hands of a selfish political elite that wants to guard its position will only lead tyranny and despotism.    

 

 

But metaphors enrich the imagination and if power is just an illusion then surely theres no better way to put it into words than with metaphors?  :) 

[nolirion]

Then how hasn't the shadow corrupted everybody if we're all equally fallible? 

 

You mean how Ishmael hasn't corrupted everybody ? If you need example .

The Black Ajah . There is no stable governement in Randland ,outside of tiny kindgom ,  as Ishmael as worked against each and everyone of those that rised . More than Half of the nobility In Randland is either a darkfriend or a greedy and corrupt bunch.

Remember the first book and Ingtar word at the end of the second book :

 

Humankind is being swept away everywhere. Nations fall and vanish. Darkfriends are everywhere, and none of these southlanders seem to notice or care. We fight to hold the Borderlands, to keep them safe in their houses, and every year, despite all we can do, the Blight advances

Of course when you are not the focus of a crazed forsaken backed up by the enbodiment of chaos and destruction , you tend to have a rather pleasant time .

[Mr Ares]

Then how hasn't the shadow corrupted everybody if we're all equally fallible?

Firstly, who said anything about equally fallible. Plus, just because you can corrupt someone, doesn't mean it is worth the effort.

 

Comparing the relative merits of the Aes Sedai and the Seanchan as to who betters humanity the most in the endgame. My monies on them.

"Better for humanity" is a term so vague as to be almost meaningless.

 

The "subtle empire" is entirely based on soft power aimed at combating the dark one. Guiding humanity towards this is not a bad thing. They're closer to the UN or the Jedi Order than some insidious force you are portraying them as. Theres only so much they can do to help human society when there are so few sisters and they lack men to help create more complex weaves and lack the ability to make ter angreal. They can't put a healer in every town or manipulate the weather to help crops grow or wards to keep insects off crops etc etc. But if you look at what Aes Sedai did during the AoL with the resources that is what happened and it made a huge difference. This is a much better world than one in which it is an empire that uses channelers as an iron fist to crush sedition and conquer other peoples. An Empire whose only reason to exist is to fund the lifestyles of its ruling elite and increase the power of said elite. This is not building a better world. Putting power in the hands of a selfish political elite that wants to guard its position will only lead tyranny and despotism.

The AS have a certain view of the world. They try to help, but their view of how best to help involves a strong WT. How is that any different from the Seanchan? Most of what they do is not aimed at fighting the Shadow, mostly they are concerned with more mundane, day to day matters. Further, the Seanchan also work towards defeating the Shadow - they have Prophecies too, both their own corrupted Karaethon Cycle and the Essanik Cycle, which is native to them. Those Prophecies state that the Dragon must kneel to the Crystal Throne - so the Empress, according to prophecy, stands above the Dragon Reborn. She's the boss, he's just on the payroll. Now consider that Hawkwing's empire was considered something of a golden age, and while the Seanchan empire may not be perfect, what came before doesn't exactly sound appealing either. As for what the AS did in the AoL, leave that out, as that's a different organisation. They all died during the Breaking. They just share a name.

 

But metaphors enrich the imagination and if power is just an illusion then surely theres no better way to put it into words than with metaphors?  :)

Metaphors do not enrich the imagination, they poison and confuse it. Meaning can be conveyed with greater beauty and greater clarity without resorting to metaphors.

[False Dragon1991]

You really believe that the organization that calls itself Aes Sedai and is shown repeatedly as learning more and more of the AoL under Egwene and slowly returning back to that time throughout the entire series is not going to eventually lead to an AoL society? Really?

 

The AoL was better for humanity and utopian. There is no gray or room for confusion on that point. It is explicit. Aes Sedai have the means and ability to return to that time. Unlike you I don't see why Egwene wouldn't do this in a post Last Battle scenario. You seem to assume that she wouldn't, becuase of spite towards humanity or something?

 

Language is more nuanced than that and I don't know why you're being uber serious about a BDSM joke except to be contrarion for its own sake.

[jedman67]

You really believe that the organization that calls itself Aes Sedai and is shown repeatedly as learning more and more of the AoL under Egwene and slowly returning back to that time throughout the entire series is not going to eventually lead to an AoL society? Really?

 

The AoL was better for humanity and utopian. There is no gray or room for confusion on that point. It is explicit. Aes Sedai have the means and ability to return to that time. Unlike you I don't see why Egwene wouldn't do this in a post Last Battle scenario. You seem to assume that she wouldn't, becuase of spite towards humanity or something?

 

Language is more nuanced than that and I don't know why you're being uber serious about a BDSM joke except to be contrarion for its own sake.

The Age of Legends is gone and is not coming back until the wheel turns again. The modern day AS have nearly forgotten their mission: to remind the world that the DO still exists and the Last Battle is coming, and to prevent the world from breaking again.

[Mr Ares]

You really believe that the organization that calls itself Aes Sedai and is shown repeatedly as learning more and more of the AoL under Egwene and slowly returning back to that time throughout the entire series is not going to eventually lead to an AoL society? Really?

AoL knowledge is not the same as AoL values. The AoL is gone, and won't come back - whatever new world is built won't be the AoL. Maybe better, maybe worse, maybe as good, but still not the same.

 

The AoL was better for humanity and utopian. There is no gray or room for confusion on that point. It is explicit. Aes Sedai have the means and ability to return to that time. Unlike you I don't see why Egwene wouldn't do this in a post Last Battle scenario. You seem to assume that she wouldn't, becuase of spite towards humanity or something?

Who said Egwene is going to be around after the Last Battle? Also, they do not have the means or the ability to return to that time, not by a long shot. And, again, better for humanity is not an objective state. What one person views as better another views as worse. The AoL was widely seen as a utopian society, but "better" is an opinion. Yes, it is explicit, but an explicit opinion is still an opinion.

 

Language is more nuanced than that and I don't know why you're being uber serious about a BDSM joke except to be contrarion for its own sake.

Who said I was being uber serious? Considering that I was the one who made the initial BDSM joke...