The Androl Thread

[Mats Spare Hat]

Really?

New character shows up, creates hitherto unseen massive lava-barfing gateway, saves the day, and you'd call the expression that the new guy's sudden importance overshadows that of long established dramatis personae, as non-subjective opinion?

Ed Bradley says Common.

[Charred Knight]

You are also comparing what Cadsuane does over the course of several books to what one guy does over the course of one.   Yes Cadsuane is an important character, she was created to be an important character and more importantly she doesnt undermine the story being written.

 

What the arc of the Black Tower is supposed to establish is Logain as the leader of an independent group of male channelers that rivals the White Tower.  The problem is that the story Sanderson wrote emphasized Androl above Logain and so made Logain look like a poor leader as he accomplishes nothing until the very end of the series at which point his token accomplishment is significantly below even the most lesser accomplishments of Androl.

 

At the end of the story the people leading the two towers are Cadsuane and Logain, the fact that you think Androl is on the level of Cadsuane speaks volumes about how misplaced Sanderson's priorities were on the Black Tower arc.    

[mbuehner]

Worst part of Androl, for me, was that instead of utilizing him for his rare gift to... you know, win the last battle, he was sent on some lunatic suicide mission that somehow came off. I wonder if Demandred would have survived a 30 foot lava gateway opening in his headquarters? Guess we'll never know.

[KakitaOCU]

@Kakita

 

Perhaps I wasn't clear but your answers above have nothing to do with either point I was making. In fact they serve to bolster my point in places. Take Tud's point for example where you basically describe exactly what I said about how things change throughout a story arc but put them in your own words. In regards to Androl what you said before was:

 

The fun thing is, all those things he did, from what I understand, those are all in Jordan's notes.

 

Now you say:

 

>

Since we're all agreeing that we have no idea of what exactly was in the notes, we can't know for certain.

Please stop moving the goal posts.

 

Also TGS is part of the final volume. All three books fit under "A Memory of Light". Lastly comparing Androl to Cads is utterly ludicrous. You may not have an issue with how it was handled, but it isn't generally considered good writing. Mat's is absolutely correct about that.

 

I'm not moving any goal posts, Suttree.

 

Let's look at what I said.  First sentence says that from my understanding Androl's actions were set by Jordan, if not it being Androl specifically.  After reviewing the specific quote I revised my statement and admitted I was off when I said "All" since the actual wording was "A lot".

 

Now, after that you made the point that the notes were limited and then you and various others agreed that we could not know exactly what was in them.

 

Given that I suggested that the fact that Mr. Sanderson said that a lot of Androl's actions were things Mr. Jordan said HAD to happen, it was a fair assumption to say that a lot of his actions were in the notes, just without a person specified to do them.

 

That's not moving goal posts, that's admitting that my original statement was flawed and then continuing the conversation based on the points being made.

 

As for TGS being part of the last book, again, was meant that way but wasn't.  Someone who wasn't deeply involved in watching this series come out is not going to see it as one last book, they're going to see it as the last three books.  The fact is, whatever was intended, that there are 14 books in the WoT series (15 if you count NS).  Androl shows up briefly in book 9, becomes fleshed out in books 12-13 and starts to become important in book 14.

 

As for the Cads comparison.  I'm accepting we can agree to disagree, you might try the same.  You can call it bad writing or that it's not generally considered good, but that would be opinion.  Personally, I find it to be somewhat realistic of the world.  The characters we stay with don't always lead the whole way, sometimes someone new pops up, sometimes they do things that should have been someone else's job. 

 

Beyond that, the idea of a no name from the background stepping forward to be a hero because he chooses to, irrelevant of what the "heroes" want fits very well with the idea "Egwene" makes to Rand after her death. 

[KakitaOCU]

@ Mat's Spare Hat

 

I continue to see that as a really irrelevant action.  Sure he did it, but any of the Ashaman could have done that.  He did it because he was good at Gateways and it was quicker with him, nothing more.  Beyond that I could come up with a couple dozen ways to do a simila feat with and without gateways.  I didn't consider that action special for him, just an action.

 

The only thing I honestly consider an out and out victory moment for him is stealing the seals, that was all him.  For the rest he always had help, or assistance, or almost botched it.  Sorry, that's not screaming new comer Marty Stu to me the way some of you see it.  Difference of opinion and all.

 

@ Charred

I simply don't find him to undermine anything.  Not sure what more can really be said there.

For the rest, I feel Logain is the leader, he also went through a very dark place and his characterization seemed fine through the whole from his fall to his redemption.  He didn't write Androl "Above" Logain, in fact, despite his POV's I never once felt or even considered the idea that Androl was above Logain.  Androl as a Leader vs Logain is like comparing Perrin to Rand.  One is a leader of the people, among them, stepping in when he has to.  The other is a noble and bright light, standing forth to inspire and direct.

As for the last, I never compared Cadsuane and Androl the way you're implying.  My only comparison was that of "Look, they both show up late in the series and step into importance."

[Charred Knight]

Except that Sanderson never wrote Logain as this inspiring figure, and he certainly never wrote Logain as a guy who directs.

 

Allso Cadsuane first appears in the middle of Book 7, Androl starts to get important in book 13.  So Cadsuane appears in the middle of the series.

[KakitaOCU]

You're looking at it from your own perspective based on what we know from Logain's POV and weakness.  Step into the shoes of Emarin, Androl, etc.  Instead of seeing someone deeply flawed because we know his mind.  See someone who stood up and protected and lead them when Taim started going wonky.  A man who was there when their supposed savior abandoned them.  See a man captured and subjected again and again to something that should turn him to the shadow and watch him resit, again and again.  A man who took leadership and lead the Black Tower to war.

 

If I didn't know from his PoV that he was on the verge of breaking, that his madness was driving him over the edge of despair, I'd see him much like an Aragorn figure.  As stands I'm fully capable of seeing what his men saw without the benefit of insider knowledge as it was.

 

Also, I'd call Cadsuance's entrance "late in the series" which was my wording.  I'm aware you consider Androl too late, but that, again, is our opinions clashing.

[Suttree]

@Kakita

 

The comparison between Cads and Androl doesn't work on any level. That has been clearly shown by a number of posters at this point. You are grasping in trying to make it fit. In addition curious how an entrance and immediate development in book 6 of a 14(15 with NS) book series can be considered late?

 

Further when I discuss "writing" and what is generally considered good plot work there is a baseline there. It's not my opinion, it is a general standard in literature and how to craft a story. The issue with how it was handled has been discussed in a number of the reviews by literary critics. Now if you can show why it was done purposely from a literary perspective and was crucial to the plot you would have an argument. Unfortunately we know why it was done. Sanderson wanted a character to call his own and got carried away in developing him. Much like he admitted he did with Perrin's character and the various things that had to be cut due to him overshadowing others.

[KakitaOCU]

Suttree, my point was simple.  That you can be deeply established in a series, have all your major players already established and going.  Have no need to add anymore, and then add new characters.  Cadsuane and Androl both represent this idea, albeit at different times.

 

As for your literary points.  I'll simply say that there are tropes specifically aimed at the situation we're discussing.  I'll also say that Tropes aren't automatically bad.  You thought it was a poor decision and that it didn't work.  I thought the opposite.  You're not going to sway me, I'm not going to sway you.

 

At this point it's agree to disagree, so won't say any more on that.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Riiight, riiggghhtt

Being the crucial piece who just also happens to be a character disclaimed as being one of which the stand-in writer could call his very own, who just so happens to also exhibit a specifically designed talent & expertise for gateways, comparatively out of nowhere effectively instigates the improbable defeat of shadowy forces on a massive scale via death by drowning on molten rock, via gateway, is irrelevant.

It is an event specifically designed for Androl, who was designed with the specific talent for being stupendous at creating & using gateways, beyond any and all other use of the one power, of which he displays zilch.

That's literally screaming deus ex machina mary sue.
 

[KakitaOCU]

MSH.

 

Considering we could have had the exacty same problem solved via said circle of men and women pulling what Rand did at Maradon with the multiple attacks?

 

Dealing with that army was a matter of raw power usage, nothing more.  His lava trick was very cool, very neat and memorable, and ultimately no more destructive to the enemy forces than other displays we've seen from other channelers.

 

As for the Deus Ex and Mary Sue issues.  The first requires an idea coming out of nowhere that was never thought of expected.  We've been screaming to intelligent use of gateways for a while now.  The first also requires it needing to be a problem that the heroes couldn't possible solve without said Deus Ex.  Again, not the case.

 

A Mary Sue is perfect, they don't make mistakes, they don't lose, they are never weak.  Egwene is honestly the closest we really get to a Mary Sue and I don't really feel she gets all the way there.  The one trick pony with drastically limited powers doesn't qualify.

[mbuehner]

The problem only problem I have with the Great Gateway Lava Showcase is that is happened concurrently with the Great Channeler Nerfing. It kinda said 'hope you liked it, cuz thats the last large scale intelligent display of the OP you're gonna see by either side'.

[Suttree]

I would have been totally fine with the lava gateway had it targeted Valan Luca's Menagerie. Seriously would have loved to see Felix Pax's reaction.

[Rhienne]

Slightly different Androl-related topic: I was wondering if anyone knew whether the effects of the double-channeler bond felt by Pevara and Androl were Brandon's idea or RJ's?

[KakitaOCU]

mbuehner, agreed, was kind of annoying to see it devolve into a basic fire fight.  But it does kind of make sense.  I hate to give credit to Goodkind, but he had one of his wizard's explain it well.  With channelers on both sides, doing their jobs right, it'll almost look like there's no magic going on at all.  Anything truly complex would be exposed to being negated, blocked, cut, etc as it establishes, so in the end, you go with raw destruction because it's almost instant.

 

Suttree, I'd have paid for that, just for the reaction from Felix.

 

Rhienne, I'm very curious about that as well, also if there was any forshadowing.  I've seen bonds like that happen before (Modesitt Jr's Recluce saga uses them extensively) and they're always fun, so was a pleasant surprise to see it pop up.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved, with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character,
ability, or object.

My oh my, whoever will resolve the Black Tower plotline, save Elayne's forces, and handily recover the seals? Woopdie woo, here comes Deus Ex Androl!

But wait! Don't you need to know where you're traveling to explicitly in order to make a gateway to said place, else skimming comes into play?

Pish tosh, Androl can do it, fine sir! Being able to survive in the midst of lava & its natural viscosity in order to know a place to the point of being able to travel there be damned!

It'll be just like that time he'll touch upon to build non-existent back story, but lend an air of mystery to his characterization! Kaloo kalay!

[Cybertrolloc]

Traveling and Skimming are the other way around MSH. I don't see it as that bad, and there's certainly much bigger problems, and that's not what I want to talk about here.

 

Cadsuane's introduction into the story was also heavy-handed. Sure, people thought she was dead and lots of people would prefer not to talk about her due to being shown up or whatever. The problem with that is she had a lot to do with some early background events (the capturing of Logain and Taim), so a mention was needed, instead of oh, here's the bestest Aes Sedai of the last millenium in book 7 and she can be bothered to do something about the most important thing ever.

[Mats Spare Hat]

My bad Cybertrolloc

[KakitaOCU]

Seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved, with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character,

ability, or object.

 

My oh my, whoever will resolve the Black Tower plotline, save Elayne's forces, and handily recover the seals? Woopdie woo, here comes Deus Ex Androl!

 

Cyber covered the gateway issue.  Any channeler, given the idea or desire to do so, could open a gateway to a lava tube, or the bottom of the ocean, or the vacuum of space, etc.

 

Beyond that, again, your going on this idea that ONLY the new super gateway power could solve these problems.  All three of those could be handled in a number of ways, none of which need a gateway.

 

Logain's rescue could have come from Naef or Narishma very easily.  Instead of using gateways to redirect enemy weaves just have solid fighters used to war who outfight Taim. 

 

Saving Elayne's army would be much the same.  Logain knows almost all of the destructive Weaves Rand does (Having seen them at the Manor battle).  He easily could have just taken a near full circle and laid waste.

 

Any male channeler with some acting ability could have pulled off the stunt with the Seals.  Emarin per chance?

 

If you want to complain that Androl's use meant that other Ashaman didn't get to shine, that's fine.  I even agree with you on that to an extent.  But claiming he's some deus ex when clearly there are several solutions to each problem he solves.

 

A Deus Ex happens when the good guys are legitimately going to lose and there is literally no option for them to take at all.  Then something we've never even heard of shows up.  A Deus ex would be some, before unknown salvation.  If the enemy forces had destroyed Elayne's army and Logain's and were about to win and there were no good channelers left andAndrol had never existed before the lava tube scene,  Or we had never heard of the Horn of Valere before Olver blew it.  Those would be Deus Ex's.  Established characters doing something that others are capable of as well.  That's just the plot

[Mats Spare Hat]

Except any channeler didn't, in any of those cases. Androl did - by design.

A super-gateway wasn't the only answer - except it was the answer we have, enacted by Androl, who by design is narrowly, specifically, super-duper at gateways.

Logain's rescue, saving Elayne's forces, et al. Androl, repeatedly is placed in a position to where he is the pivotal figure for the resolution of those conflicts/plot points.

Androl, the new character which Sanderson got to have as his 'very own.'

_____

Deus Ex Machina: A person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty. See, also: Androl.

Contrived: Deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously.

Sanderson wanted a character to have as his very own. This character by design is stupendous at Gateways. A new character & ability that's interjected into major established plot lines as THE solution to seemingly insurmountable tasks. 

Deus Ex Androl.

[Guest Agitel]

Except any channeler didn't, in any of those cases. Androl did - by design.

 

A super-gateway wasn't the only answer - except it was the answer we have, enacted by Androl, who by design is narrowly, specifically, super-duper at gateways.

 

Logain's rescue, saving Elayne's forces, et al. Androl, repeatedly is placed in a position to where he is the pivotal figure for the resolution of those conflicts/plot points.

 

Androl, the new character which Sanderson got to have as his 'very own.'

 

_____

 

Deus Ex Machina: A person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty. See, also: Androl.

 

Contrived: Deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously.

 

Sanderson wanted a character to have as his very own. This character by design is stupendous at Gateways. A new character & ability that's interjected into major established plot lines as THE solution to seemingly insurmountable tasks. 

 

Deus Ex Androl.

 

It would be deux ex machina if Androl's talent had just been revealed then and there. We were introduced to him and his talent in TOWERS. There are problems with introducing such a relevant character that late in the game. But it wasn't deux ex machina. 

 

We knew Androl. We knew his Talent. We've all speculated on the ways gateways could be used and this didn't introduce anything new there. Deux ex machina is randomly discovering a new weave with no explanation right at the last second. Deux ex machina is an unintroduced character or a random event appearing and saving the day. While Androl was introduced near the end of the series, he did have two books worth of development.

[Agitel]

I didn't realize I wasn't logged in and that it was possible to post as a guest. Weird. 

[Suttree]

 

 

Except any channeler didn't, in any of those cases. Androl did - by design.

 

A super-gateway wasn't the only answer - except it was the answer we have, enacted by Androl, who by design is narrowly, specifically, super-duper at gateways.

 

Logain's rescue, saving Elayne's forces, et al. Androl, repeatedly is placed in a position to where he is the pivotal figure for the resolution of those conflicts/plot points.

 

Androl, the new character which Sanderson got to have as his 'very own.'

 

_____

 

Deus Ex Machina: A person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty. See, also: Androl.

 

Contrived: Deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously.

 

Sanderson wanted a character to have as his very own. This character by design is stupendous at Gateways. A new character & ability that's interjected into major established plot lines as THE solution to seemingly insurmountable tasks. 

 

Deus Ex Androl.

It would be deux ex machina if Androl's talent had just been revealed then and there. We were introduced to him and his talent in TOWERS. There are problems with introducing such a relevant character that late in the game. But it wasn't deux ex machina.

 

We knew Androl. We knew his Talent. We've all speculated on the ways gateways could be used and this didn't introduce anything new there. Deux ex machina is randomly discovering a new weave with no explanation right at the last second. Deux ex machina is an unintroduced character or a random event appearing and saving the day. While Androl was introduced near the end of the series, he did have two books worth of development.

Problem being it was supposed to be one book. This was all AMoL even though it was split. I see it somewhere in between the two.(late introduction v. deus ex). The focus on Androl and Perrin did feel unbalanced in relation to the rest of the series. Got could you imagine if the Perrin and Ogier cleaning the ways scene made it in too?

[Mats Spare Hat]

And yet the very definition of Deus Ex fits almost to the letter with the character of Androl.

Again,

An unexpected character, designed with a very specific talent, brought in also, by design, to be the critical factor in the resolution of major plot points at the very end of a series.

[KakitaOCU]

No, it doesn't. 

 

By your own definition it doesn't.  Nothing Androl did was unique to him, nothing was an act that was impossible for anyone else to accomplish. 

 

Again, if you want to be unhappy because you think he's a late comer and took away focus from other Ashaman, great.  I don't agree, but that's fine.

 

But claiming he's a Deus Ex is false.  Sorry.

 

Looking at your definition we have "Deus Ex Machina: A person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty."

 

So first of all, the person or thing appearing suddenly and unexpectedly.  Androl was around in WH.

 

Second we have the contrived solution: Androl's talent is unique to him but not unique in general, we have someone who couldn't make accepted who could make a shield that Nynaeve couldn't break, others are inately gifted at healing, Aviendha can just read Ter'Angreal, etc, etc. 

 

as a kind of 1.5 let's look at the unexpected part of one and the contrived of two.  The use of gateways.  First, Androl's not the only one experimenting, the Gray's are all of it.  Second, nothing he does with Gateways really covers anything that basic understanding of reality couldn't give you.  If anything the fandom's been curious that Rand and others weren't trying similar stunts earlier.

 

Now for the Third, Apparently insurmountable difficulty.  We don't see this.  Again, none of the three major actions Androl undertakes are events that couldn't have been solved by others with different methods or approaches.  That third point needs to be a situation where the heroes have no way to win at all if you remove the theoretical Deus Ex.  Take away Androl and Logain leads the Ashaman in covering Elayne's retreat, basically re-enacting Maradon.  And that's the simple and easy solution, let alone if anyone starts getting creative.

 

Suttree, I know we're pretty much at a standstill on this, but doesn't matter that it was planned as one.  It was printed as three and is now three.  I guess I could ask, as a related question.  Do you consider Lord of the Rings one book?

 

Edit: Thought I'd add in the points about the definition MSH is using instead of just saying "No, you're wrong."