Discuss the Shadow (Full Spoilers)

[pmtang]

Graendal was caught a couple times leaving the tents in the Light's camp.

[Yarazin]

Graendal was caught a couple times leaving the tents in the Light's camp.

So then maybe that is how she got around Bryne's Warder Ward...

[Dakota]

Disappointed with how the final confrontation between Rand and the Dark One played out.

 

 

It's been said (hinted or strongly implied) many times in the series that the Dark One is not of the pattern. He is an outside force trying to corrupt and break the pattern. The pattern is balance, the Dark One is trying to destroy that balance.

 

 

It's been stated that the Dark One is not the source of all evil in the world. Adrihol is a good example, it's a city that became so evil it birthed some new sort of entity. While it did so trying to fight the Dark One, the city didn't turn so evil -because- of the dark one, it's just the evil in the hearts of man made manifest.

 

 

This is why I see the whole thing about 'Rand's world without the dark one was bad because it removed the soul and choice from everyone' bit to be a bit of an ass pull. We've seen that people are still capable of choice and free will without the Dark One's influence, I don't see how killing him would disrupt this. Hell, five of the seven ages have him locked up behind his perfect barrier, completely unable to influence the world. So you're telling me that for five out of the seven ages, everyone is a soulless automaton without choice or free will because the Dark One is inaccessible? Every arguement for the Dark One being necessary, is countered by the fact that for so much of the turning of the wheel he's sealed up inside his perfect prison, unable to influence the hearts of men.

 

 

If anything Rand killing the Dark One should have restored the pattern, the wheel, and the world to it's natural, intended state, as it would have been without that outside influence trying to corrupt and destroy it. If the Dark One was a necessary evil to the world, he would have been an integral, vital part of the pattern, not an outside entity. If Rand during his battle with the Dark one, standing from outside and reading the pattern, had seen the Dark one interweaved with it and a necessary part of it, then I could see why imprisoning him vice killing him would have been the proper choice.

 

 

Even if there was some thing about how Shai'tan was killed, only to replaced by Shaisim/Fain/Ordieth, that I could have accepted, the notion that the Dark One was just a manifestation of the evils of man that changed with each turning of the wheel. Instead Fain was just a source of buildup and foreshadowing that puttered out.

 

 

It just doesn't sit well with me that the whole 'Rand shouldn't kill the Dark One, only imprison him' notion just seems to run counter with a lot of things we've been told throughout the series. I don't know how much of it is poor planning on RJ's part, or BS not having a clear concept of RJ's notes left behind.

[mokaloka99]

I agree with Dakota....

 

I am not a WoT Expert but from what have been told throughout the series is that the DO is outside of the pattern. I truly wish we were given more insight on what the DO was/is/why he exists, etc, relationship to the creator. 

 

The Aes Sedai logo/Yin Yang clearly is stating what the whole series is stating. You have to have a balance and if there isnt one, the pattern in turn will work at correcting the imbalance. 

 

So is the DO and the Creator both outside of the pattern? They both can manipulate the pattern and the creator just wants life to exist where the DO wants to destroy it? If that is the case then maybe that is why we need the DO because he exists to help balance out but from what we have been told, he is locked away for 5 of the 7 ages. Doesnt seem like a balance to me.

 

 

 

Here is my theory on the DO..... 

 

The creator created all, world, pattern, creatures, etc. The pattern is like the Yin Yang Symbol itself. All those threads of life woven in it but it constantly strives to stay balanced. A birth balanced with someone dying from falling off a step. Someone living from a 5 story fall but a baby being stillborn, etc. 

 

The Creator is outside of this, his work is done. He no longer does anything but exist and the pattern continues to stay balanced. 

 

 

During one of the earlier Ages, one of the most powerful Channelers, combined with maybe a Ter,Angreal or SA,Angreal figures out how to remove himself from the pattern. In doing so he is outside of the pattern now and because of this able to weave the pattern. Much like how Rand is outside of the pattern and able to control the pattern at the end of AMOL. Maybe he/she was evil before this or maybe after removing their self from the pattern went mad. At this point he/she tried manipulating the world, tried changing it/destroying it. The Creator realized that his Pattern cant balance an outside force and thus he intervenes. He takes his only direct action by imprisoning the DO and sealing him off from the pattern. Maybe he wasn't destroy-able now that he is outside of the pattern, who knows. Fast forward to the Age of Legend and them drilling into the Bore. Again another powerful aes sedai is tampering with the pattern and drills a whole through it and through the prison the DO is sealed in. The Creator realizes that he cant continue to intervene directly but only indirectly, and decides to let his Pattern play it out. The pattern has to counter balance the DO's effect on swinging the pattern to the evil side, thus the counter balance, The Dragon, the light's champion being created. The dragon isnt the Creator's Champion, but the pattern's answer to the balance. 

 

This would also possibly help explain the Eelfinn/Aelfinn and portal stones, other worlds.... etc. The Creator/Pattern only exists in this reality and in some other earlier Age, people figured out how to escape the pattern. It was lost since then though.

 

Especially with the simplemindedness of the DO in AMOL it further makes me believe that he isnt a Permanent Evil that came since creation, he is something that came later in time.

 

 

Also it helps me realize what Shadar Logoth and Fain were/are. 

 

Shadar Logoth and Fain are the complete upper end of Evil that the pattern can crank out without the DO's evil.

The opposite to this is Rand's vision of a complete pure society with no DO or Evil. Everything seemed wrong. This is the Patterns Upper end of Good. Neither can exist or should be allowed to exist and if they came in play the pattern would have to balance it back out.

 

 

 

Again i wish we had more to go on with the nature of reality, good and evil, creator and DO, the nature of their existence and explanations of the things out of the pattern.

[AndyB]

Lanfear boggles me.  Her arc was just.... weird.

 

I think the word you're looking for is "stupid."  To expand, "pointlessly, hopelessly, unimaginably stupid."  

 

What does she (know (or think she knows)?

 

1) It's never too late to turn back to the Light.

2) The Dark One has just about had it.

3) The only person who really knows anything about her (Rand) is about to die.

4) Once Rand is dead she will be the only person alive with knowledge of the Age of Legends.

 

Is there any imaginable  reason for her not to pitch in, get lauded as a hero, and then go patent shock lances and air cars?  Or go save some doomed regiment or something as step one of a needlessly complicated plan to rule the world?  Or really do anything other than try to convince one of Rand's closest companions to turn on him?  Ugh.  I get that the Forsaken have to be monumentally stupid, otherwise it isn't much of a story, but come on.

[longtimefan]

Regarding Fain and Rand's idea to kill the Dark One -

 

At first, I was a little disappointed the Fain's minimal role and thought that he appeared merely as an afterthought.  However, after rereading Rand's battle with the Dark One, Fain's ending made sense.  I remember reading The Chronicles of Prydain when I was a lot younger, and a theme in that book is that, although you can kill the source of evil magic, you can never get rid of the evil that already exists inside of people.  I always took that as a reasonable philosophy.  So when I read in AMOL what a world would look like without the Dark One, it didn't make sense to me the way Rand saw it, since I was thinking that men could be just as evil as the Shadow (a la Shadar Logoth and Mordeth).

 

However, if memory serves me correct, Shadar Logoth and Mordeth only came about BECAUSE of the Dark One touching the world.  Essentially, the residents of Shadar Logoth adopted the evil used by the Shadow to fight against the Shadow.  Take the Dark One out of existence, and Shadar Logoth would never have existed.  Same for Fain.  Therefore the Dark One, at least in Randland, apparently really is the source of all evil, whether it is a likeable notion or not.

[huskylord]

In regards to the treatment of Fain in AMOL and overall the last few books was tremendously disappointing.

For such a character to have been built up by Jordan in the early stages of the adventure, being the *wildcard* villain with ever increasing abilities, options, etc I think it's pretty apparent that Fain was a thread to simply tie off and  not complicate the story line.  Fain started off as A lister villain, and in the end became an extra.   

[AndyB]

I kind of loved that Fain went out like a little bitch.  After all, Shadar Logoth was destroyed basically as an afterthought, they needed to drop all that taint somewhere, right?  

 

If only Fain had been mid-monologue when he got ganked, it would have been perfect.

[Estrecca]

I am amused by the fact that Demandred seems to have been kept out of the loop to a truly staggering degree.

 

Moridin was waiting for Rand in the Pit of Doom.

 

Lanfear knew he was there.

 

Graendal (aka the Forsaken beyond forgiveness) knew he was there.

 

Random members of the Black Ajah knew he was there.

 

Is more than mildly amusing.

[Elysium]

Honestly, Fain was enfuriating. He was quite disturbing in the previous book (his potential to affect the Ran/Moridin fight was huge), and to have him show up at the end with a retarded name was a huge let down. I did like that Mat killed him, but it seems that either RJ/BS didnt know how to work him in or he was the biggest red herring of the series. The problem with the later theory is that while fain = red herring is something I could respect from a literary perspective, he was written to intriguingly and became too interesting to remain a red herring. He evolved beyond it.

 

But the dumbest villain of all was Demandred. Moridin at least had multiple plans (Alanna, Elayne's babies, etc.) and Graendal and Moghedien had useful roles to play. And while I get Demandred as general (a necessary role given Mat's abilities), I HATED that he was dumb enough to a) engage in three different swordfights and b) think that LTT wouldnt be at Shayol Ghul. The swordfights were the worst part though...you have to be an arrogant fool to think that a) you wont get tired out for the fight with LTT that you were expecting, and b) that luck, a muscle spasm or whatever couldnt result in your death.

 

Oh, and Taim...really? He has this awesome Sa'angreal and he loses to an exhausted Egwene? He should be able to trump her one on one, and I got the impression that his Sa'angreal was stronger than hers...sillyness.

[Suttree]

I am amused by the fact that Demandred seems to have been kept out of the loop to a truly staggering degree.

 

Moridin was waiting for Rand in the Pit of Doom.

 

Lanfear knew he was there.

 

Graendal (aka the Forsaken beyond forgiveness) knew he was there.

 

Random members of the Black Ajah knew he was there.

 

Is more than mildly amusing.

It's ridiculous is what it is. So disappointing Demandred got the cartoon villain treatment as there were parts of his story that Brandon handled very well.

[Cirin]

I actually thought the Shadow's overall endgame plan was pretty weak... you've had three thousand years to plan, and a bunch of trollocs and Demandred getting killed in a sword duel to a Warder while linked to a full circle of 72 is all you can come up with?  Even Moridin's plan with Alanna ultimately fell a little short, since in the end Alanna just decides "Oh, I'll just release the bond."  Really?  You've been imprisoned and dying for how long now, and you wait until he's throwing the knife to release Rand's bond?  Ah well, kept Moridin from grabbing one of Rand's other bondmates.

 

I would have preferred to see the Shadow do a little more damage, actually.  Yeah, they razed Caemlyn and numerous Borderland nations, but beyond that they seem to have done more damage during the Trolloc Wars.  The Trolloc Wars took place over a longer period of time, sure, but still... after planning for several millenia, I would be disappointed were I the Shadow.

[platinum_bow]

So Slayer. He tells Perrin

 

"Luc wanted to be something important......I sought the ability to channel. The Dark One cannot grant that, but he found something different for us, something better. Something that requires a soul to be melded with something else. Like what happened with you , Aybara. Like you."

 

For me, that was a huge wtf moment. I get that baddies love to mess with good guys' heads during their last monologues, but seriously...wth?? It's not a person meld. The Luc/Isam/Slayer thing...it's something to do with his power in TAR right? Did everyone get it but me? I couldn't fully enjoy Perrin bashing in his head in their next scene, cuz honestly I was stuck on the meaning of that exchange.

 

Please someone clarify this for me

[Guest loganfynne]

It could be that Luc and Isam were melded together with the True Power? Having two souls would give him more willpower in TAR, and therefore more control, given that he would have more willpower to use there or whatever. Or perhaps they were melded with a Darkhound or something. That would make his statement to Perrin about being similar to him make sense.

 

But my real question is... What happened to Shaidar Haran? Where did he go? Why did he not show up even once in aMoL? What was his purpose?

[Cirin]

It could be that Luc and Isam were melded together with the True Power? Having two souls would give him more willpower in TAR, and therefore more control, given that he would have more willpower to use there or whatever. Or perhaps they were melded with a Darkhound or something. That would make his statement to Perrin about being similar to him make sense.

 

But my real question is... What happened to Shaidar Haran? Where did he go? Why did he not show up even once in aMoL? What was his purpose?

 

He had a very brief appearance... or at least his corpse did.  When Rand enters Shayol Ghul and sees the giant gaping hole that is the Dark One, Moridin references the corpse and how the Dark One doesn't need it anymore.

[platinum_bow]

It could be that Luc and Isam were melded together with the True Power? Having two souls would give him more willpower in TAR, and therefore more control, given that he would have more willpower to use there or whatever. Or perhaps they were melded with a Darkhound or something. That would make his statement to Perrin about being similar to him make sense.

 

But my real question is... What happened to Shaidar Haran? Where did he go? Why did he not show up even once in aMoL? What was his purpose?

 

 

Interesting thought about melding w a darkhound. But Slayer never seems to exhibit the hound traits. He can't "smell" Perrin like Perrin smells him...if that makes sense.

 

Haran seemed like an avatar to me. Did he ever do anything against the DO's express orders? I just thought it was another way of showing how the DO trashes his minions when he's done w them

[Thad¸ the Stallyn]

How come none of the evil characters got happy endings?  Verin the Betrayer doesn't count.

 

How does the so-called brutal realism of inglorious deaths, and threads being left unfinished to imply a living world post-finale, reconcile with the Shadow not getting its due?  All the Forsaken and their major tools were crushed, killed, ruined, and enslaved and this in light of the DO being sealed away.  Even the Blight was undone.  A total victory for the Light with all major evil forces annihilated or ruined or in bondage doesn't really smack of reality.

 

Much too tidy.

[probe907]

Yeah, there was surprisingly little redemption in a world supposed to revolve around the principle of "balance." Looked like a straight good vs evil encounter to me.

[wRAR]

It's not a person meld. The Luc/Isam/Slayer thing...it's something to do with his power in TAR right? Did everyone get it but me?

Having two souls allows you to enter and exit TAR in the flesh without a gateway.

[Guest timhwot]

The epilogue contains a scene with Mat having just killed Fain.  Therefor Brandon had to write it up to that part.  The notes were probably clear on the sequence of events that had to occur (Mat being immune to Fain, Fain dying from his own dagger to the heart, etc.)

 

What is ridiculous is the lack of Fain writing prior to this.  We really didn't need much.  We didn't even get a scene explaining where the whole name change came from.  That's all it would've taken to deal with Fain better...a scene or two throughout the book showing him marching to SG and explaining his new powers a name some.  Some people would still be disappointed because they thought Fain was going to play such a massive role in the ending, but it is clear that even RJ didn't have him playing much of a role in the endin.  This is a valid criticism of RJ's plot for once - it is a little bit ridiculous to extend a story arc of someone like Fain out until the very end after it was such an important and massive part in the early books, and then just casually kill them off with little purpose.  Then again, we dont know how RJ would have written all of this so maybe he would have made it a little bit more grand and satisfying.  He usually does IMO.

 

I still think the main point of everything was balance - and RJ was writing about it as early as TSR with Thom talking about light and shadow, good and evil, and choice.  For Fain, I think the pattern was using him to keep balance, since it wasn't sure what Rand would choose.  Fain was on his way to confront Rand and the DO, but once Rand decided not to kill the DO, the pattern had no need for Fain, and he was killed off.  I think that if Rand did kill the DO, then Fain would have stepped into that void to provide balance. 

 

Kind of like the False Dragons who fell once Rand declared himself, the false DO fell once the pattern was certain Rand wouldn't kill him.

[megalomax]

 

 

 

Also, did EVERY person who tried to go into the Pit of Doom just smile at Thom and assume he was falling for whatever guise they were employing?

lol yes and if they could channel why didnt they just kill him? or compulse him?

My theory is that they couldn't just channel to kill him there, because if they lashed out with the Power RIGHT THERE outside where Rand+Nynaeve+Moiraine+Callandor were channeling the most of the OP ever channeled, they knew that there was a high likelihood that they would get deep fried.

BS might have skipped something. When Demandred and Shaidar Haran went inside the Pit I think he remarked that channeling too close to the bore was dangerous.

[hime]

Ok, so here is what I thought of the fate of each forsaken\ DF:

 

Moridin: believe it or not, I felt more sorry for Elan than anyone else in the series, the guy just wants to die and be over with it, though I don't understand why he can't just turn back to the light side and not be the shadow champion, it was really sad when he said the DO punished him by bringing him back to life! I actually hoped Rand would balefire him and release him forever, in fact, why hadn't Moriden thought of balefire, I bet if he asked the other forsaken to BF him they would be more than happy to do so!

 

Demandred: this is not the right topic to discuss him, so I'll just say,  Moridin should have Texted him 'LTT is here in the Bit of Doom! Consternate on killing Aes sedai or something'

 

Graendal: if there was medal for the best& coolest forsaken, I would give to her, she dealt with her punishment well, she single handedly ruined the light plans, and managed to use her talent in a creative way, needless to say, I absolutely hate her end! She could have at least died in a modest way, just because she is on the dark side doesn't mean she can't get a decent death, especially now that Taim and demandred went down in style, she deserved better.

also, I'm not familiar with compulsion, but it sound like a complicated weave, where you decide what exactly you want the compelled person to do, yet somehow, Graendal weave not only conveniently missed Avi to hit Graendal, but it also changed purpose to make her worship Avi...I feel kind of cheated, oh and If Avi uses her as a pet to learn weaves of the AOL, I'll be really angry, because they can't all go around condemning Seanchan for leashing women then do it themselves( note that Egwene used A'dam on mogi, but she told Toun that even DF should not be leased)

 

Moghedien: while she did some great damage as spy, I still felt she was useless, mostly because of her epic failure after taking Demandred's place, being captured by A'dam seemed like a fitting end for her, but she is yet another woman who will be humiliated and broken rather than just killed. I'm sensing a pattern.

 

Taim:  he was a bit flat for most of the book, not really knowing what he's thinking or doing .maybe because he's just a newbie?

 

lanfear: I totally didn't see that one coming, but I loved the way she ended, Typical lanfear all along. And at least she did die!

 

Slayer: when reading the prologue, it is impossible not to feel sorry for Isam for the horrible childhood he had to go through, I wished they would go deeper with his character, because he is a special case in which a person is not turned forcibly to the shadow yet was never really given the choice, it was a deep concept that I wished they would explore more, but oh well, I liked his arc in general.

 

Fain: I'm so glad he died the way he did, I understand people wanting to read more about him, but he was basically a character that lost significance long ago, yet still a lose end that needed to be tied, giving him a bigger role now would have been anticlimactic at best.

 

Shadar haran: no idea what to feel about that one, at some point he seemed quite important, but then he is just dead...

 

 

As for light vs. shadow in general, at some point the shadow seemed at a disadvantage , since the number of darkfriends is smaller than lightfriends, especially in Aes sedai ranks, assuming that the turned Ashaman and the sharan even things out, the battle should have even to a point, I guess the compulsion of the Great captains gave the shadow an edge but suddenly Mat is thinking they are outnumbered 1 to 4, I actually liked that turn of events, though I still blame Elayne for wasting too long on the Camylen battlefront, everything went downhill from there on.

 

[megalomax]

 

 

It could be that Luc and Isam were melded together with the True Power? Having two souls would give him more willpower in TAR, and therefore more control, given that he would have more willpower to use there or whatever. Or perhaps they were melded with a Darkhound or something. That would make his statement to Perrin about being similar to him make sense.

 

But my real question is... What happened to Shaidar Haran? Where did he go? Why did he not show up even once in aMoL? What was his purpose?

He had a very brief appearance... or at least his corpse did. When Rand enters Shayol Ghul and sees the giant gaping hole that is the Dark One, Moridin references the corpse and how the Dark One doesn't need it anymore.

I was hoping that Shaidar Haran would rebel. I seem to remember reading that he hated the link he had with Thakandar and that he was looking for a way to break it.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

 

 

It could be that Luc and Isam were melded together with the True Power? Having two souls would give him more willpower in TAR, and therefore more control, given that he would have more willpower to use there or whatever. Or perhaps they were melded with a Darkhound or something. That would make his statement to Perrin about being similar to him make sense.

 

But my real question is... What happened to Shaidar Haran? Where did he go? Why did he not show up even once in aMoL? What was his purpose?

He had a very brief appearance... or at least his corpse did. When Rand enters Shayol Ghul and sees the giant gaping hole that is the Dark One, Moridin references the corpse and how the Dark One doesn't need it anymore.

I was hoping that Shaidar Haran would rebel. I seem to remember reading that he hated the link he had with Thakandar and that he was looking for a way to break it.

 

Shaidar Haran was the DO. The DO put a part of itself into the body of a Myrddraal which allowed it to wander round while still mostly contained by the Seals. 

 

When the DO became strong enough, the body  was no longer needed. 

 

That passage from Shaidar Haran was the DO wanting to be free from the prison bound at Shayol Ghul. 

[megalomax]

Ok, so here is what I thought of the fate of each forsaken\ DF:

 

Moridin: believe it or not, I felt more sorry for Elan than anyone else in the series, the guy just wants to die and be over with it, though I don't understand why he can't just turn back to the light side and not be the shadow champion, it was really sad when he said the DO punished him by bringing him back to life! I actually hoped Rand would balefire him and release him forever, in fact, why hadn't Moriden thought of balefire, I bet if he asked the other forsaken to BF him they would be more than happy to do so!

 

Demandred: this is not the right topic to discuss him, so I'll just say, Moridin should have Texted him 'LTT is here in the Bit of Doom! Consternate on killing Aes sedai or something'

 

Graendal: if there was medal for the best& coolest forsaken, I would give to her, she dealt with her punishment well, she single handedly ruined the light plans, and managed to use her talent in a creative way, needless to say, I absolutely hate her end! She could have at least died in a modest way, just because she is on the dark side doesn't mean she can't get a decent death, especially now that Taim and demandred went down in style, she deserved better.

also, I'm not familiar with compulsion, but it sound like a complicated weave, where you decide what exactly you want the compelled person to do, yet somehow, Graendal weave not only conveniently missed Avi to hit Graendal, but it also changed purpose to make her worship Avi...I feel kind of cheated, oh and If Avi uses her as a pet to learn weaves of the AOL, I'll be really angry, because they can't all go around condemning Seanchan for leashing women then do it themselves( note that Egwene used A'dam on mogi, but she told Toun that even DF should not be leased)

 

Moghedien: while she did some great damage as spy, I still felt she was useless, mostly because of her epic failure after taking Demandred's place, being captured by A'dam seemed like a fitting end for her, but she is yet another woman who will be humiliated and broken rather than just killed. I'm sensing a pattern.

 

Taim: he was a bit flat for most of the book, not really knowing what he's thinking or doing .maybe because he's just a newbie?

 

lanfear: I totally didn't see that one coming, but I loved the way she ended, Typical lanfear all along. And at least she did die!

 

Slayer: when reading the prologue, it is impossible not to feel sorry for Isam for the horrible childhood he had to go through, I wished they would go deeper with his character, because he is a special case in which a person is not turned forcibly to the shadow yet was never really given the choice, it was a deep concept that I wished they would explore more, but oh well, I liked his arc in general.

 

Fain: I'm so glad he died the way he did, I understand people wanting to read more about him, but he was basically a character that lost significance long ago, yet still a lose end that needed to be tied, giving him a bigger role now would have been anticlimactic at best.

 

Shadar haran: no idea what to feel about that one, at some point he seemed quite important, but then he is just dead...

 

 

As for light vs. shadow in general, at some point the shadow seemed at a disadvantage , since the number of darkfriends is smaller than lightfriends, especially in Aes sedai ranks, assuming that the turned Ashaman and the sharan even things out, the battle should have even to a point, I guess the compulsion of the Great captains gave the shadow an edge but suddenly Mat is thinking they are outnumbered 1 to 4, I actually liked that turn of events, though I still blame Elayne for wasting too long on the Camylen battlefront, everything went downhill from there on.

Didn't the gate avi tried to make explode? It was small so no major danger but in older books channeling around the area where traveling gates exploded was difficult as weaves slipped from the channeler and produced different results like the damane hitting their own ranks or going wild. This was the weapon they tried to learn from the captured Elaida.