Post-aMoL Speculation & Discussion (Full Spoilers)

[wRAR]

I'm sorry if this seems out of place, but I was responding to the question of the "Big Un-noticed thing" that  Sanderson mentioned after MOL..

 

   I think  that there may actually be two" big un-noticed things". Remember when Artur Hawkwing said that Mat had died twice and was saved by Rand, but the second time he hadn't noticed it? Remember, that the fact that he had died that second time  was crucial because that was why Olver was able to sound the horn?  Well, way back in  TSR Mat gets hanged and Rand saves him..That's the first time he dies (and everyone remembers that one), but Hawkwing said that it didn't count; that it was the second death that was crucial. That had me wracking my brains trying to remeber a second time  that Rand saved Mat in such a way that it went un-noticed and thenit struck me, the attack by the darkhound...Remember that Mat had been drooled on and that it had been itching., but stopped after Rand balefired the hound? Well, if memory serves, Moraine mentioned in passing that without the balefire Mat would have been dead, but because the balefire had ben so strong, it destroyed the hound before it had  bitten/drooled on Mat...That was the second , unoticed time that severed Mat from the horn.

 

At least that make sense to me..I hope..

 

tud 

Rahvin killed Mat.

[Suttree]

@tud

 

Hawking never said Mat died twice. He wasnt dead in Rhuidean on the tree.

[deidog]

 

 

 

 

Unless there's some discussion of this in the last book, Perrin's leadership abilities aren't a result of his ta'veren nature, but inherent to himself.  It was only his ta'veren nature which brought those qualities to the surface.  Thus, the fact that he may no longer be ta'veren will not affect his abilities as a leader, which were always there within him.

 

As far as Mat's luck is concerned, he himself thinks that it is tied to the Shadar Logoth dagger.  If he's right, the fact that he's no longer ta'veren may have no effect on his luck.

 

Since this is a full-spoiler forum... 

 

Perrin's leadership abilities have absolutely no bearing whatsoever in aMoL; Perrin's role in aMoL is 100% tel'aran'rhiod-based. 

 

And if Mat's luck is tied to the Shadar Logoth dagger, well, he's equally screwed since that dissolves and disappears from the world. 

 

Point being, I think if Perrin's statement that they're no longer ta'veren is accurate, Mat's battle luck is gone, and far from just losing at dice, he's going to take a gamble on the battlefield and lose, badly, pretty early on in the Seanchan consolidation. Therefore, I'm just going to assume that Perrin was mistaken in that, and that it was only the colors-swirling-in-the-head thing that was gone -- after all, that didn't become a thing until long after they were already ta'veren.

I disagree with this. What you are not taking into account is the battle experience Mat has from all the memories he recieved. While his luck may not be as strong as it was while Ta'veren, he still posseses the combined military experience of hundreds of generals. He will probably continue to be a very good battlefield commander.

 

  I am going to have to re-read Mat's visit with the Eelfin because an angreal was mentioned earlier in this conversation that I do not seem to recall and could be very critical. However I do not think Mats luck would go away. I think Mats luck has more to do with who or what he is which was never really revealed.

 

 He wasn't a reborn great war general as Mr. Jordan himself had stated that the battle memories were not his or his ancestors, they were simply stolen from other men.

However it is alluded to and actually at one point in AMOL simply stated that Mat is more ancient then the dragon himself.

 

 I apologize but I am having trouble finding the scene to quote but as I recall it was someone having a conversation with one of the Aes Sedai (I want to say Cads but very well could be wrong) where they mention something along the lines of the eldest should be followed reffering to Rands ancient status as the Dragon. The other party responded that they would all be following Mat then. When questioned about the statement her further response was simply along the lines of "never mind , something I'm not supposed to know"

 

 From Mats exchange with Hawkwing I felt the hero's know who he is. However they simply address him as "Gambler". So I went back and re-read the scene where he summoned the hero's the first time. Reading this I realized that while the hero's reconize Rand as Lews Therin and address him as such they never directly addressed Mat. Their only concern was that Lews Therin and the banner were there because as we are reminded when they appear in AMOL the hero's will evidently only fight for the Dragon. Then again could it simply be that Mr. Jordan could not have had them address Mat at the time without giving away his secret?

 

 So the question is, did Hawkwing refer to Mat as The Gambler because he has always been associated with luck and risk or simply ont he merits of his current life?

[wRAR]

Finns call Mat Son of Battles, Trickster and Gambler. That must mean something too.

[deidog]

 That is interesting that they call him Gambler as well. I can't wait to get home tonight and re-read that now!

[wRAR]

it's TSR 15 btw.

[deidog]

Excellent, Thankyou very much

[Tud]

WRAR, you are right..Now that I think of it, that would far more plausable, because  with the drakhound, he'd been about to die. Rahvin, on the other hand, did actually  kill him..Thanks..As for Mat having died twice, actually, Hawkwing did..Mat questioned when the link had been broken and opined that  it was from being hanged, but was told that that wasn't  what had broken the link,that it was something un-remembered. That meant it had to have been a situation where balefire was used around Mat and that meant when the darkhound attacked and when Rahvin attacked (full kudos to  WRAR for correcting me on that)

 

tud

[wRAR]

WRAR, you are right..Now that I think of it, that would far more plausable

It was also confirmed by BS at least once.

[Suttree]

WRAR, you are right..Now that I think of it, that would far more plausable, because  with the drakhound, he'd been about to die. Rahvin, on the other hand, did actually  kill him..Thanks..As for Mat having died twice, actually, Hawkwing did..Mat questioned when the link had been broken and opined that  it was from being hanged, but was told that that wasn't  what had broken the link,that it was something un-remembered. That meant it had to have been a situation where balefire was used around Mat and that meant when the darkhound attacked and when Rahvin attacked (full kudos to  WRAR for correcting me on that)

 

tud

No that is still wrong. Mat never died during the Darkhound attack and he never died on the tree in Rhuidean. RJ has been very clear on this. For the record Hawkwing said Rand had saved Mat not twice, not that he had actually died.

[dirty_bird18]

So trying to wrap my head around the Nakomi entity.

 

A theory of mine is that Nakomi is in essence the caretaker of the wheel/pattern. She has the knowledge of how the pattern is weaved and can be nudged to make certain events happen. Sorta like it is mentioned that the wheel weaves as the wheel wills. Well what if there was a person at the center of that weaving? How I got to this is that there are 7 ages/spokes in the wheel and we know at some point the DO will be released somehow. Thus the Dragon's soul is spun out and we start down the same path again. So let's say in the last spinning of the wheel we go though all the DO being released and the person who is Dragon at that time seals it back up again, as a reward for "winning" or fixing or bringing the pattern back into balance, that person now becomes the caretaker of the pattern in the waking world. 1 caretaker per spinning of the wheel.

 

So let's say Nakomi was the previous winning Dragon in the prior spinning, she is now caretaker. Now as the spinning continues, the same events happen again, DO is released in some fashion, and now it is up to Rand in this spinning to put it back into balance, he does and the final job the prior caretaker has is to transtion her role to the new Dragon(Rand) so that he may now be the caretaker. Thus why both Nakomi and Rand appear to have the same thread/weaving ability within the pattern.

 

My guess is that once Nakomi did her job of making sure Rand survived/transtioned to new role in the end, she will then disappear and now it will be Rands job to be the caretaker, up through the next spinning of the wheel, when this will all happen again. Rands role will then be to help the next Dragon transtion to their role as caretaker, etc, etc, etc.

 

Ramblings of a long time WOT reader.

[Agitel]

I enjoy the caretaker idea, though I'm not sure I'm going to adopt that POV. However, Nakomi couldn't be the previous Dragon, as the Dragon soul is always male. And it seems implied that Rand is the one to always fight this fight in the interviews given.

[jasonhackwith]

Anyone else think that Brigette may be reborn as one of Elayne's babies? That would certainly be poetic justice.

 

That was the very first thing I thought of! I LOVE the idea. Would be fascinating to read about, but we're not going to see any other books it looks like.

J

[Suttree]

 

Anyone else think that Brigette may be reborn as one of Elayne's babies? That would certainly be poetic justice.

 

That was the very first thing I thought of! I LOVE the idea. Would be fascinating to read about, but we're not going to see any other books it looks like.

J

We also know it isn't correct. The timing doesn't work.

[Guest DraykeThorne]

i suppose it relates completely to the newly begun age, however it would have been interesting to have had the babies born in this book since we have had to read about constantly for god know how many pages. i think its only fair.  i found it just odd that that was just it...both female ? one of each, obviously the author is eluding to the fact that one of her kids is the rebirth of birgette. and the other twin? the poor overlooked bastard.

[dirty_bird18]

I enjoy the caretaker idea, though I'm not sure I'm going to adopt that POV. However, Nakomi couldn't be the previous Dragon, as the Dragon soul is always male. And it seems implied that Rand is the one to always fight this fight in the interviews given.

 

How do we know it is always male?

[Suttree]

 

I enjoy the caretaker idea, though I'm not sure I'm going to adopt that POV. However, Nakomi couldn't be the previous Dragon, as the Dragon soul is always male. And it seems implied that Rand is the one to always fight this fight in the interviews given.

 

How do we know it is always male?

Rand's soul is the Champion of the Light and souls don't change gender.

[dirty_bird18]

 

 

I enjoy the caretaker idea, though I'm not sure I'm going to adopt that POV. However, Nakomi couldn't be the previous Dragon, as the Dragon soul is always male. And it seems implied that Rand is the one to always fight this fight in the interviews given.

 

How do we know it is always male?

Rand's soul is the Champion of the Light and souls don't change gender.

Osan gar would beg to differ.

[Suttree]

 

 

 

I enjoy the caretaker idea, though I'm not sure I'm going to adopt that POV. However, Nakomi couldn't be the previous Dragon, as the Dragon soul is always male. And it seems implied that Rand is the one to always fight this fight in the interviews given.

 

How do we know it is always male?

Rand's soul is the Champion of the Light and souls don't change gender.

Osan gar would beg to differ.

Osangar's soul never changed gender. Just his body. That is why he still channeled saidin and not saidar. We have word of God on this:

 

 

 

Interview: Apr 4th, 2001 Leiden Signing Report - Aan'allein (Verbatim)

Aan'allein

It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

Robert Jordan

It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

Aan'allein

But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ...

Robert Jordan

...so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable.

 

[dirty_bird18]

 

 

 

 

I enjoy the caretaker idea, though I'm not sure I'm going to adopt that POV. However, Nakomi couldn't be the previous Dragon, as the Dragon soul is always male. And it seems implied that Rand is the one to always fight this fight in the interviews given.

 

How do we know it is always male?

Rand's soul is the Champion of the Light and souls don't change gender.

Osan gar would beg to differ.

Osangar's soul never changed gender. Just his body. That is why he still channeled saidin and not saidar. We have word of God on this:

 

 

> 

Interview: Apr 4th, 2001 Leiden Signing Report - Aan'allein (Verbatim)

Aan'allein

It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

Robert Jordan

It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

Aan'allein

But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ...

Robert Jordan

...so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable.

 

 

Ok thanks for the clairification.

 

Well there goes that idea. Boo.  lol

[rane008]

I think you mean Asangar.

[Suttree]

 

I think you mean Asangar.

 

Almost there...Aran'gar.

[Chad Zeunges]

I was honestly surprised that there was a question of Nakomi being the Aiel lady at the end with Rand at all. When I read it, it seemed logical that she was the one he was seeing. Alivia's role was only to help him disappear from the world, thereby "dying". Plus, why would Alivia be wearing Aiel garb?

 

All the crazy stuff that happened at Aviendha's fire (the food cooked too fast, the taste was incredible, Nakomi said weird stuff like "I'm far from home, or maybe my home is far from me" points to something supernatural. If reading this series has taught me anything, it is when there are quirky details, they are there for a reason and mean something.

 

Plus, with Egwene's philosophy about there being a Balance to everything, there would need to be the Creator's touch on the world as well, and it was stated many times that Rand was just a man. A very special man, but just a man.

[Suttree]

Plus, with Egwene's philosophy about there being a Balance to everything, there would need to be the Creator's touch on the world as well, and it was stated many times that Rand was just a man.

 

Per RJ the Creator takes no part. He said that many times.

 

 

 

Interview: Jan 18th, 2003

COT Signing Report - Tallis (Paraphrased)

Robert Jordan

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from...creating...the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

[Noonesperfect]

It's likely that every time a male Dragon appears, there is a female counterpart, since balance is a major theme in the series. In the current age the female part is probable Egwene. One lived and one died - this time the Drafon lived and his counterpart died. Perhaps last time the last battle was fought and won there was also a female counterpart, and she was the one that survived, while the Dragon died. That could be Nakomi.