Mat has a fair bit of travelling to do...

[BFG]

So Mats situation at the moment:

 

At the end of ToM he was chilling out by the river with plans to head to the White Tower (told Joline(?) that he had something he needed to collect), Caemlyn (to pick up the Band.  We don't know if he makes it back to Caemlyn, but I assume he did (and from there to FoM) and decided to head to Ebou Dar, to visit Tuon instead (maybe as a result of Avis vision?). 

 

Tuon is currently planning a second strike on the Tower, it's possible that Mat will manage to dissuade her of this.  Against this Egs vision had 2 ravens flying past, and the Tower apparantly split and divided - it's been speculated that this means 2 attacks and that the second will splinter the Tower - I'm not sure of this interpretation.

 

A small white plinth stood centered in that circle, supporting an oil-lamp made of clear glass. The flame on that lamp burned bright and steady, without flickering. It was white too. Suddenly a pair of birds flashed out of the mist, two ravens black as night. Streaking across the spire-top, they struck the lamp and flew on without so much as a pause. The lamp spun and wobbled, dancing around atop the plinth, flinging off droplets of oil. Some of those drops caught fire in mid-air and vanished. Others fell around the short column, each supporting a tiny, flickering white flame. And the lamp continued to wobble on the edge of falling

 

So either way, in Mats first chapter he's in Ebou Dar.  He still needs to go to the WT.  On top of this, does he need to go to Illian?  All the prophecies to do with the Horn associate it with Illian, so even if that's wrong, does the fact that Mat believes it mean that he's heading to Illian?  If he does head there will it be on his own, or with the Seanchan - I think the Band are now tied up with Caemlyn until after TG, or unless he can convince Elayne to allow this.

 

Their's also Mins first vision tying the group that left the 2R and possibly/probbaly Elayne together.  My speculation is that this group needs to be present at the Bore during the successful sealing/healing/shutting away...  There have been a lot of people that are necessary to the overall victory of the Light, why would this group in particular be tied to Rand?  Although I do accept that the more likely (and easier) interpretation is just that they're all necessary to the Shadow.

 

So, my list of Mats travelogue in aMoL:

Caemlyn/Fields of Mellior

Ebou Dar

White Tower

Illian(?)

TG and/or SG/bore/ wherever Rand is.

 

Compared to the others who all seem to be in position to move from FoM to TG it seems like a lot of places (and time), especially considering that the Chapter 9 excerpt he doesn't seem in much of a hurry.  Maybe Eg brought the Horn with her?  That essentially means Mat has to go to Ebou Dar then wherever Rand needs him (assuming it's possible to ignore Illian).

 

Anything I've missed, conclusions/assumptions you disagree with? 

 

Cheers

 

So anyway

[FarShainMael]

Mat may not need to go to Illian; all he may need to do is talk to its King - i.e. Rand.

 

[herid]

I find linking two ravens to two Seanchan attacks on the White Tower pretty iffy but there is another dream ensuring that there will be a second attack. In TDR, ch 25 Egwene had a dream of women in dresses with lightning bolts woven on their breasts, collaring a long line of women who wore Great Serpent rings, forcing them to call lightning against the White Tower. So not only will there be another attack, but Tuon will figure out how to get around the third oath. She hinted in tGS that she might know how.

 

As for Illian, unless the Horn is hidden there already I have a hard time seeing how it can be involved there. It can not be used without the Banner  AND the Dragon as explained by Hawkwing in tGH. So unless Rand goes with Mat it will not be blown in Illian.

I'm not sure if the Horn is really mentioned in the prophecies. The closest I found is that Thom mentions in tGH that

 

The legends all tie the Horn to Illian

--tGH, ch 26

 

This is certainly suggestive but it says, legends, rather than prophecies. Still, this is a strong link and even Moiraine and Siuan wanted Rand to take the Horn to Illian in tGH. So perhaps  Mat and the Horn will have some adventures in Iliian after all without having the Horn blown there.

 

Mat's timeline in chapters 3-10 seems pretty clear to me. It's mentioned in AMOL, ch 1 that both of Perrin's Asha'man are there with him at FOM. So Mat will show up there at noon the next day. Rand will send him to deal with the Seanchan. This will be seen in somebody else's POV because Mat's POV in ch 11 is his first in the book. There are plenty of main characters present at FOM so this should not be a problem. Mat will stop by his Caemlyn camp before going to collect his things and Pips.

Edited December 7, 2012 by herid

[BFG]

It was the legends thing from Thom I was trying to remember.  But does it matter if there aren't any prophecies taking the Horn to Illian, if Mat believes there are.  That's a good call with the banner and Rand.

 

My understanding of the other theory (can't remember where I read it unfortunately to check) is that it's not so much the two ravens as the White Tower apparantly scattering afterwards - this didn't happen the first time, although until your DR quote, I thought that 1 of the ravens could refer to the shadow splintering the Tower - it seems odd to me that the Tower has literally been united for one book, but now it sounds like it could fall again.  Although I guess it would leave the way open for Greater Tar Valon (or whatever it was called) in one of the 'history' excerpts.

 

3-10 seem clear enough, it's after that that it gets interesting, and as i said it seems odd that he seems so relaxed in 10 if he's just coming from FoM.  Maybe Rand's agreed to delay the attack?

[Suttree]

I honestly think the AS have taken their lumps. Certainly do not see anything scattering or breaking the WT once again. To my mind they are set up for redemption at the LB and growth with male AS post TG.

[herid]

@Suttree I certainly agree with that. There will be a second Seanchan attack but the WT will survive. Actually, let me amend that. The WT will survive in the end but it might be a very close call judging by Egwene's dream where a Seanchan woman helps her. It would also be very cool if the prophecy from LoC that "The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign." turns out to mean that the  White Tower falls to the Seanchan and the forgotten sign means Hawkwing's sign.

 

@BFG as for Rand delaying going to Shayol Ghul, I'm still not sure on that. Perhaps. He could still be occupied in Caemlyn when he sends Mat to Ebu Dar. Caemlyn need not be completely resolved at that point. Also, Grady is supposed to make a gateway for Mat at noon. On the other hand Rand's trip to Shayol Ghul will most likely take place at noon too. There are a number of hints of that. In particular, in tGH when Siuan arrives in Fal Dara there are some ceremonial phrases related to Amyrlin's role as the Watcher of the Seals

 

 

 

Suddenly Ronan rapped his staff loudly three times on the broad paving stones, calling into the silence, “Who comes here? Who comes here? Who comes here?”

The woman beside the palanquin tapped her staff three times in reply. “The Watcher of the Seals. The Flame of Tar Valon. The Amyrlin Seat.”

“Why should we watch?” Ronan demanded.

“For the hope of humankind,” the tall woman replied.

“Against what do we guard?”

“The shadow at noon.”

“How long shall we guard?”

“From rising sun to rising sun, so long as the Wheel of Time turns.”

--tGH, ch 2

 

It has long been suggested that this refers to a solar eclipse and there is a solar eclipse going on on the AMOL cover which shows Rand, Nyn and Moiraine at Shayol Ghul. So I think that likely means that Rand will hold off his attack at least for a while. Terez thinks that Grady might make his gateway early so that Mat arrives at FOM before noon. But that seems unlikely to me because the gateway time was set up very recently  and it would have been much simpler from writer's perspective to have it set in the morning and avoid any extra plot complications.

Edited December 7, 2012 by herid

[Fred Cauthon]

@BFG, I think the two ravens flying past symbolizes two different obstacles: 1) Yes the Seanchan will attack the tower again is definitely one 2) the other raven symbolizes the DO and a possible attack on the WT. I think this is how the WT will become divided. One group will say to hell with TG we need to defend the WT and the other group will want to fight at TG thus splitting the tower into two groups. It will be interesting to see where Egwene stands on this as she has strong feelings about both possibilites.

 

Fred Cauthon

[BFG]

@Herid - it's possible someone remembers that Mat is arguably the best General they have and go to look for him early.  It may be a bit of an unnecessary complication, but it would help seal his importance among the gathered armies.  Or more likely they go to pick him up at noon :)

 

I just don't get the urgency from him that I'd expect if Rand was still planning his strike on SG (for the day that Mat joins them, if my timeline is right - I'm also not sure that Rand would leave, unless he knew that Mat had control of the armies.  He knows that that's not his place any more, but I don't think he'd leave them without securing some hope they could win).  If Mat knew that Rand was going the same day then it would be in his thought pattern now - as of ToM (possibly GS) when he talks to Joline about picking up the Horn (honestly, he's alot more responsible now).  Maybe Rand holds off because of the information Moiraine has?  Maybe he's waiting for Mat to gather up the Seanchan?  Maybe Min didn't come up with a plan (although I doubt the last after the Prologue). 

 

@Fred, if one of the attacks does symbolise the Shadow, then that's (arguably) happened already when Mesanna managed to break the Tower.  I don't know if dreaming works the way Mins viewings do, that when she knows she knows, or if Eg just believe that (if Eg is right, then there has to be a second attack as she knew what that dream meant)

 

I agree with Sutt that I don't think it will break again, but the DR quote is interesting - it could refer to the sisters captured in the Raid - Eg states that more raken escape than she can shoot down, I don't know if it would equal a long line, but I think it's safe to assume their's a few.  They also have the AS captured in the lands they've taken over, although I doubt that's more than a dozen or so.

[Fred Cauthon]

Ah yes, I had forgetten about Mesanna masquerading in the WT. BUT just to throw this out there for debate, we still do not know what Demandred is doing, maybe this is part of his bushels and droves? Also let's not forget that Taim has a fair amount of channelerls assuming he can act before Androl can fight him for control of the BT.

 

Fred

[The Fisher King]

One thing that must be kept in mind is that almost every single key event in this series has been foretold in one set of prophecies or another. Timing may be exact, or it may not be, but the moment of these key events happening is almost certainly not likely to be left to a rudimentary or causal timeslot.

 

 

Fish

[wipe]

@Herid: "It would also be very cool if the prophecy from LoC that "The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign." turns out to mean that the White Tower falls to the Seanchan and the forgotten sign means Hawkwing's sign."

 

Isn't it much more likely that this refers to the old sign of the Aes Sedai- the disk of black and white? Pointing towards a reunion of male and female aes sedai.

[Morden]

@Herid: "It would also be very cool if the prophecy from LoC that "The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign." turns out to mean that the White Tower falls to the Seanchan and the forgotten sign means Hawkwing's sign."

 

Isn't it much more likely that this refers to the old sign of the Aes Sedai- the disk of black and white? Pointing towards a reunion of male and female aes sedai.

I think that is far more likely, though one can never tell. It would make sense that Rand would aid Egwene and co in stopping the Seanchan though, if we wants their aid, he needs them alive and unchained.

[Tsukibana]

Tossing this into the ring - what if the two ravens hitting the tower are symbolic of Mat? (Prince of Ravens, two ravens on ashendarei blade)

my thought is that perhaps the split has to do with allowing him to take the Horn, and of sisters going with him to protect Caemlyn. I could see

a few of the sisters helping him cause they respect him (Joline, for one), maybe a few convince him to attack the Seanchan to recapture captured sisters...

anyways, just a thought.

 

I always thought the splintering of the white tower (the smaller flames in the dream) represented the WT not SPLINTERING, but de-centralizing. Putting all the eggs in one

basket for the Seanchan to hit is dumb. Plus, they are already splintering off, with alliances and sisters with Windfinders and Wise Ones. It will simply become policy after the

Seanchan attacks.

[Fred Cauthon]

@Herid: "It would also be very cool if the prophecy from LoC that "The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign." turns out to mean that the White Tower falls to the Seanchan and the forgotten sign means Hawkwing's sign."

 

Isn't it much more likely that this refers to the old sign of the Aes Sedai- the disk of black and white? Pointing towards a reunion of male and female aes sedai.

I think that a reunification of the tower between men and women is what will probably happen. Maybe an indication of things to come with Androl and the BT possibly.

 

Fred

Edited December 10, 2012 by Fred Cauthon

[herid]

@Herid: "It would also be very cool if the prophecy from LoC that "The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign." turns out to mean that the White Tower falls to the Seanchan and the forgotten sign means Hawkwing's sign."

 

Isn't it much more likely that this refers to the old sign of the Aes Sedai- the disk of black and white? Pointing towards a reunion of male and female aes sedai.

The prophecy says "breaks and bends knee". That does not fit with the unification with men at all IMO. I'm sure there will be some sort of the unification of the WT and the BT (It's been suggested that the Asha'man will migrate to Elaida's unfinished palace) but  not in relation to this particular prophecy. As far as I'm aware the most straightforward (and generally assumed to be correct) interpretation of this prophecy is that it refers to the Tower division in TSR and the Aes Sedai swearing fealty to Rand on their knees at Dumai's Wells. In that case the forgotten sign likely does mean the ancient sign of the Aes Sedai as you suggest. I was never satisfied with this explanation, however, because in the prophecy the Tower breaking and bending knee seem to be related and here they are not. Also, I don't think the ancient symbol of Aes Sedai was ever forgotten. Even Rand knew what it was when he saw the broken Seal at the end of tEoTW and he was just a simple shepherd at the time. Hwakwing's sign is mostly forgotten, however.

[Tsukibana]

 

@Herid: "It would also be very cool if the prophecy from LoC that "The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign." turns out to mean that the White Tower falls to the Seanchan and the forgotten sign means Hawkwing's sign."

 

Isn't it much more likely that this refers to the old sign of the Aes Sedai- the disk of black and white? Pointing towards a reunion of male and female aes sedai.

The prophecy says "breaks and bends knee". That does not fit with the unification with men at all IMO. I'm sure there will be some sort of the unification of the WT and the BT (It's been suggested that the Asha'man will migrate to Elaida's unfinished palace) but  not in relation to this particular prophecy. As far as I'm aware the most straightforward (and generally assumed to be correct) interpretation of this prophecy is that it refers to the Tower division in TSR and the Aes Sedai swearing fealty to Rand on their knees at Dumai's Wells. In that case the forgotten sign likely does mean the ancient sign of the Aes Sedai as you suggest. I was never satisfied with this explanation, however, because in the prophecy the Tower breaking and bending knee seem to be related and here they are not. Also, I don't think the ancient symbol of Aes Sedai was ever forgotten. Even Rand knew what it was when he saw the broken Seal at the end of tEoTW and he was just a simple shepherd at the time. Hwakwing's sign is mostly forgotten, however.

 

 

Agreed, but was the Dragon's Banner present at the Wells? If so, THAT would qualify as a forgottem sign. And technically, the Seanchan don't use Hawkwing's sign, they use his son's (TGH, Padan Fain talking to High Lord... drawing a blank).

Anywhoo, just a thought.

[b3arz3rg3r]

So Mats situation at the moment:

 

At the end of ToM he was chilling out by the river with plans to head to the White Tower (told Joline(?) that he had something he needed to collect), Caemlyn (to pick up the Band.  We don't know if he makes it back to Caemlyn, but I assume he did (and from there to FoM) and decided to head to Ebou Dar, to visit Tuon instead (maybe as a result of Avis vision?). 

 

Tuon is currently planning a second strike on the Tower, it's possible that Mat will manage to dissuade her of this.  Against this Egs vision had 2 ravens flying past, and the Tower apparantly split and divided - it's been speculated that this means 2 attacks and that the second will splinter the Tower - I'm not sure of this interpretation.

 

 

 

A small white plinth stood centered in that circle, supporting an oil-lamp made of clear glass. The flame on that lamp burned bright and steady, without flickering. It was white too. Suddenly a pair of birds flashed out of the mist, two ravens black as night. Streaking across the spire-top, they struck the lamp and flew on without so much as a pause. The lamp spun and wobbled, dancing around atop the plinth, flinging off droplets of oil. Some of those drops caught fire in mid-air and vanished. Others fell around the short column, each supporting a tiny, flickering white flame. And the lamp continued to wobble on the edge of falling

 

 

 

So either way, in Mats first chapter he's in Ebou Dar.  He still needs to go to the WT.  On top of this, does he need to go to Illian?  All the prophecies to do with the Horn associate it with Illian, so even if that's wrong, does the fact that Mat believes it mean that he's heading to Illian?  If he does head there will it be on his own, or with the Seanchan - I think the Band are now tied up with Caemlyn until after TG, or unless he can convince Elayne to allow this.

 

Their's also Mins first vision tying the group that left the 2R and possibly/probbaly Elayne together.  My speculation is that this group needs to be present at the Bore during the successful sealing/healing/shutting away...  There have been a lot of people that are necessary to the overall victory of the Light, why would this group in particular be tied to Rand?  Although I do accept that the more likely (and easier) interpretation is just that they're all necessary to the Shadow.

 

So, my list of Mats travelogue in aMoL:

Caemlyn/Fields of Mellior

Ebou Dar

White Tower

Illian(?)

TG and/or SG/bore/ wherever Rand is.

 

Compared to the others who all seem to be in position to move from FoM to TG it seems like a lot of places (and time), especially considering that the Chapter 9 excerpt he doesn't seem in much of a hurry.  Maybe Eg brought the Horn with her?  That essentially means Mat has to go to Ebou Dar then wherever Rand needs him (assuming it's possible to ignore Illian).

 

Anything I've missed, conclusions/assumptions you disagree with? 

 

Cheers

 

So anyway

 

 

About Illian. Rand is unlikely to keep the crown of Illian and there doesn't seem to be a capable replacement like Darlin in the wings. I've been thinking for quite a while that Rand might cede Illian to the Seanchan as part of his negotiations with them. That would be well in line with that prophecy of tying the south and west together. Mat is probably the only one who could make a bargain on Rand's behalf with the Seanchan.

Also Illian could be the staging point for the southern counter offensive Mat will lead. The forces of the light are effectively cut in half. One half will go with Rand and fight at the Blight and the other half will deal with the southern incursion which starts in Caemlyn and probably spreads across Murandy and various uninhabited stretches of land where Trolloc hordes may have gathered.

[BFG]

@b3arz3rg3r

 

Isn't the King of Illian sitting in Tar Valon at the moment, I always assumed that he'd go back to being in control? I don't think there was evidence of him being bad as such, just having a few Forsaken problems :)

[herid]

 

 

 

@Herid: "It would also be very cool if the prophecy from LoC that "The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign." turns out to mean that the White Tower falls to the Seanchan and the forgotten sign means Hawkwing's sign."

 

Isn't it much more likely that this refers to the old sign of the Aes Sedai- the disk of black and white? Pointing towards a reunion of male and female aes sedai.

The prophecy says "breaks and bends knee". That does not fit with the unification with men at all IMO. I'm sure there will be some sort of the unification of the WT and the BT (It's been suggested that the Asha'man will migrate to Elaida's unfinished palace) but  not in relation to this particular prophecy. As far as I'm aware the most straightforward (and generally assumed to be correct) interpretation of this prophecy is that it refers to the Tower division in TSR and the Aes Sedai swearing fealty to Rand on their knees at Dumai's Wells. In that case the forgotten sign likely does mean the ancient sign of the Aes Sedai as you suggest. I was never satisfied with this explanation, however, because in the prophecy the Tower breaking and bending knee seem to be related and here they are not. Also, I don't think the ancient symbol of Aes Sedai was ever forgotten. Even Rand knew what it was when he saw the broken Seal at the end of tEoTW and he was just a simple shepherd at the time. Hwakwing's sign is mostly forgotten, however.

 

 

 

 

Agreed, but was the Dragon's Banner present at the Wells? If so, THAT would qualify as a forgottem sign. And technically, the Seanchan don't use Hawkwing's sign, they use his son's (TGH, Padan Fain talking to High Lord... drawing a blank).

Anywhoo, just a thought.

 

 

 

You are right. The Dragon Banner was there at Dumai's Wells. It was raised over the dome before the Asha'man dispersed the Shaido. That does fit better into the prophecy than the Aes Sedai symbol.

[b3arz3rg3r]

@b3arz3rg3r

 

Isn't the King of Illian sitting in Tar Valon at the moment, I always assumed that he'd go back to being in control? I don't think there was evidence of him being bad as such, just having a few Forsaken problems :)

 

As I recall while Elaida believed that she could reinstate him Mattin Stepaneos had given up on Illian. Legally Rand is the king of Illian and I doubt the Illianers will take their former king back even when Rand abdicates. The Council of Nine seem to be rather ambitious to me and they wouldn't overlook the possibility of increasing their own personal power by getting rid of the institution of a king if it was possible.

 

Besides I don't think Mattin is up to it anyways. The world after the Last Battle will be significantly different. There will be two to four superpowers in the Westlands: The Seanchan, Andor/Cairhien, the Aiel- should they settle in the Westlands as a nation- and perhaps Saldaea/Two Rivers/Ghealdan should Faile end up being the Queen of Saldaea. I have my doubts that Mattin could hold on to Illian in that new world.

[Tsukibana]

@b3arz3rg3r - Agree that Rand will lose Illian. He has united Andor/Carhien (through Elayne), but she has yet to fully Ally with Tear... or is Tear considered South (In wich case, he loses it, too)? If that is the case, North/East are now bonded through Faile (possibly) being Queen of Saldaea, and swearing to marry her children to Elayne's. (she did do that, right? or am I remembering wrong?) Granted, Rand didn't do that, but he set the stage for it all to happen... vague prophecies be damned! :)

[b3arz3rg3r]

@b3arz3rg3r - Agree that Rand will lose Illian. He has united Andor/Carhien (through Elayne), but she has yet to fully Ally with Tear... or is Tear considered South (In wich case, he loses it, too)? If that is the case, North/East are now bonded through Faile (possibly) being Queen of Saldaea, and swearing to marry her children to Elayne's. (she did do that, right? or am I remembering wrong?) Granted, Rand didn't do that, but he set the stage for it all to happen... vague prophecies be damned! :)

 

I've theorized that the prophecy meant that the Borderlanders, Arad Doman and the Aiel plus the Aes Sedai- the North and the East- would fight at the Blight while the Seanchan, Illianers and Tairen would deal with the southern incursion. That leaves pretty much only Elayne's forces unaccounted for and I guess she will send part of hers with Rand and have the rest operate within Andor independantly from whatever southern Alliance may be under Seanchan control. I don't think Elayne and the Seanchan can work together the institution of damane is too big a hurdle to overcome. Illianers and Tairen on the other hand shouldn't find it hard to work with the Seanchan. Darlin would see the necessity and I remember someone saying that Illian would follow the DO itself if it walked into town with the Horn.

 

As for that contract between Perrin, Faile and Elayne. Elayne demanded that should Faile ever inherit Saldaea her and Perrin's children would split the inheritence and that one of their children should marry one of hers. Meaning one child would get Saldaea and the other the Two Rivers. And Perrin the laughable doormat that he is agreed to all of it except the marriage contract when Elayne basically had zero power to enforce anything. Well, he didn't get dumbed down any worse than Mat did when he negotiated with Elayne. But it's always been that way in WOT negotiations. One side loses temporarily control over their mental faculties and they agree to whatever nonsense the other side demands.

Edited December 12, 2012 by b3arz3rg3r

[The Fisher King]

b3arz3rg3r ... that was one if the FUNNIEST posts ive read here in quite awhile. THANKS!!!

 

 

Fish

[Suttree]

Agree with most of it aside from Elayne not having power to enforce anything. That's is abolutely not true.

[The Fisher King]

Exactly, cuz she IS, like, The Queen (for however much THAT counts)   ;-)

 

 

Fish