Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[Suttree]

And, what I find funny is that it's fine to critique the work but not to critique the critique of the work.

 

Because this is rarely if ever done. Where are the counter examples disproving what is being said? Where are the posts showing the opposite of blunt prose or poor characterization. We never get that, what we get is the disingenuous claims of people being "whiners", "complainers" or "hyenas". Many times followed by a just be grateful we are getting the finish. Well just getting the finish isnt nearly good enough.

 

Why cant we just accept that they wont be as good as the original authors and never will be.

 

That's missing the point. It's about Brandon and his personnel growth as an author. For most of the people that genuinely care about the series and aren't just looking to bash that is the key point.

[MarkDiLillo]

BS did an adequate job, but people here don't like WoT because it is adequate, they love it because it is exceptional. I for one prefer BS finishing it over it being left unfinished,but I can definatly see why people judge his work on it so harshly.

 

Plot is all I really care about, so when people say they only enjoyed the books because of the plot gratification I don't really understand their gripe, but then I would of been happy just reading a plot summary on Wikipedia or something.

 

That said, BS doesn't get a free ride just because he is writing the books, saying his writing style and the tone of characters have changed under his authorship is valid.

 

I actually am not sure if I agree with saying that it was better to have it finished rather than unfinished at this point. I can't say I am unhappy it was finished for sure, but if the notes were good enough that we could gleam the entire story and all the details we wanted from them AND they were published...it may have been better to organize and polish the notes so that they could be released with whatever material Jordan had written himself. Add in some words by Team Jordan and it is possible we may have had the sense of completion that we all wanted despite the lack of the actual story. We'd have had the ending that way along with some other scenes and we'd have all the details we wanted. The details are really what counts. I've come to see that we lost the characters that we loved at this point.

 

It all depends on how complete the notes and rough outlines were IMO.

[Luckers]

And, what I find funny is that it's fine to critique the work but not to critique the critique of the work.

 

It is fine to critique the critique of the work, though of course you havn't done that. It's fine to do what you're doing as well, mind. Distasteful, but fine.

Hahaha!!! Distasteful but fine? You don't see anything that anybody has said in the critiques of the work that's been released early as distasteful? That's interesting.

 

Sure I do. Some of the things people have said in criticism of Brandon are distasteful--not to mention ignorent, wrong, offensive and stupid.

 

Did Harriet agree to the timeline that BS gave her. If she did, how is that his fault. She could have gotten another writer.

 

... seriously?

[thisguy]

I think I was one of the first to be a harsh critic of Bradons work. I am actually surprised with the general level of agreement that I see now that chapters are being released from the latest book. At the start I had few people who were in my camp and Brandon had a lot of sympathy. He would have won me over if he had improved his work over the course of three books, but it just doesn't seem to be the case. Some of the criticisms are very easy fixes and he seems to have flatly ignored advice.

BS did an adequate job, but people here don't like WoT because it is adequate, they love it because it is exceptional. I for one prefer BS finishing it over it being left unfinished,but I can definatly see why people judge his work on it so harshly.

 

Plot is all I really care about, so when people say they only enjoyed the books because of the plot gratification I don't really understand their gripe, but then I would of been happy just reading a plot summary on Wikipedia or something.

 

That said, BS doesn't get a free ride just because he is writing the books, saying his writing style and the tone of characters have changed under his authorship is valid.

 

That's fine. When I first read that BS was taking up authorship and had a ton of notes and people like Harriet and crew to guide him, I thought 'excellent'. I found out here that RJ was still wondering if Perrin would go the way of the leaf in the remaining books. That's pretty huge, and leads me to believe the BS was left to make a lot of decisions by himself. With that sort of latitude, there's absolutely no way people could have been happy with the product - there would have been a large segment of the reader population just unhappy no matter what.

[thisguy]

And, what I find funny is that it's fine to critique the work but not to critique the critique of the work.

 

It is fine to critique the critique of the work, though of course you havn't done that. It's fine to do what you're doing as well, mind. Distasteful, but fine.

Hahaha!!! Distasteful but fine? You don't see anything that anybody has said in the critiques of the work that's been released early as distasteful? That's interesting.

 

Sure I do. Some of the things people have said in criticism of Brandon are distasteful--not to mention ignorent, wrong, offensive and stupid.

 

Did Harriet agree to the timeline that BS gave her. If she did, how is that his fault. She could have gotten another writer.

 

... seriously?

Seriously, what? If the timeline was not adequate and she believed that, she could have gotten another author. If she couldn't have, this is what we're left with. The man took 3-4 years of his life to do this.

 

If you do see the other posts then I don't see why you find a problem with people addressing them.

[thisguy]

And, what I find funny is that it's fine to critique the work but not to critique the critique of the work.

 

Because this is rarely if ever done. Where are the counter examples disproving what is being said? Where are the posts showing the opposite of blunt prose or poor characterization. We never get that, what we get is the disingenuous claims of people being "whiners", "complainers" or "hyenas". Many times followed by a just be grateful we are getting the finish. Well just getting the finish isnt nearly good enough.

 

Why cant we just accept that they wont be as good as the original authors and never will be.

 

That's missing the point. It's about Brandon and his personnel growth as an author. For most of the people that genuinely care about the series and aren't just looking to bash that is the key point.

I've seen criticism of what's going on plot wise without knowing what has come before on these boards recently. That suggests that people are criticising without even knowing what drove the story to that point. As for prose and characterization - certain prose, as I've already said, should have been picked up by an editor. As for characterization, if the man can't write Mat well, he can't write Mat well.

[Luckers]

I found out here that RJ was still wondering if Perrin would go the way of the leaf in the remaining books.

 

RJ wasn't wondering if Perrin would go to the Way of the Leaf. That was something Brandon wanted to do, and Harriet shut him down on. [i was the one who revealed this to the community at large]

 

Seriously, what? If the timeline was not adequate and she believed that, she could have gotten another author. If she couldn't have, this is what we're left with. The man took 3-4 years of his life to do this.

 

Nothing. It's just i was a little shocked by how idealistic you are. Don't worry about it.

 

If you do see the other posts then I don't see why you find a problem with people addressing them.

 

I don't have a problem with those people. I'm usually one of them, in fact.

[PaulChauvet]

I'm personally a huge fan of what Brandon's done with the series. Perhaps I'm oblivious, but the things pointed out at various times haven't bothered me. I personally was much more bothered by books 7/8/9/10 than 12/13 and what I've seen of 14. I've enjoyed books 12/13 more than I've enjoyed 7 through 10 (11 was in my opinion a return to form for Jordan).

[capuga]

Here's my take on this -

 

I tend to agree with thisguy. While there is plenty of area for legitimate criticism, most of what I see on this site comes across to me as people just looking for things to bitch about and jumping on every little mistake instead of just trying to sit back and enjoy. I could nitpick some things too. But I choose to enjoy the story as much as possible. So I let some things go instead of dwelling on it.

 

And now this site isn't even fun to come on any more. I used to be an active poster but this place is such a quagmire of negativity now that I don't even like being here. And most of that "for good reason" negativity is extremely overblown. And, yes, that is lead by those supposedly high minded and objective posters such as Luckers and Suttree.

 

Sure you base your comments on actual criticism of the work. And they are much better written and more reasonable than others. But there comes a point where your constant criticism (and I do mean constant - it's impossible to find a thread discussing BS's work without you two joining in the negativity and explaining to the less enlightened how poor the writing really is and how little effort BS made to improve this) crosses the line from critique to rudeness. It's unpleasant to constantly read.

 

And finally, I more than slightly tired of the talk that Brandon didn't work hard on this. I think it's been shown enough that that's simply BS (and that one doesn't stand for Brandon Sanderson) and the man work his butt off. If you don't think he did a good enough job, then fine. But quit acting like the fact that he didn't take your message board complaints to heart and "fix" those things means that he didn't try to get things right.

 

So I imagine this will be my last post for awhile (unless it's to respond to people regarding this) since, even if this doesn't get me a timeout, I'm just not interested in spending my time wallowing in negativity.

[MarkDiLillo]

Oh geez, the fact that Sanderson wanted Perrin to go to the Way of the Leaf at any point in time right there says EVERYTHING. =/

 

Perrin NEVER at any point in the story gave any indication that he wanted to go that route. In fact, he constantly looked down at it. He felt protective of the people there and envied their happiness, but he looked down at them as pathetic imo. Not only that, but the whole "wolf" thing pretty strongly conflicts with that. So strongly so that it makes the entire suggestion completely asinine.

 

Ungh...the fact that BS wanted that to happen and Harriet had to shut him down on it explains everything in my mind.

[thisguy]

I have no idea where it is, but someone said that RJ's notes read that Perrin might go the way of the leaf. I even commented on what a 'wow' that is.

 

As for characterization - there are great writers who could not write a character the same way as the original author. I doubt that Tolkien, if he were alive, could carry off Mat in a style that most people thought matched up to how RJ wrote him.

[MarkDiLillo]

Here's my take on this -

 

I tend to agree with thisguy. While there is plenty of area for legitimate criticism, most of what I see on this site comes across to me as people just looking for things to bitch about and jumping on every little mistake instead of just trying to sit back and enjoy. I could nitpick some things too. But I choose to enjoy the story as much as possible. So I let some things go instead of dwelling on it.

 

And now this site isn't even fun to come on any more. I used to be an active poster but this place is such a quagmire of negativity now that I don't even like being here. And most of that "for good reason" negativity is extremely overblown. And, yes, that is lead by those supposedly high minded and objective posters such as Luckers and Suttree.

 

Sure you base your comments on actual criticism of the work. And they are much better written and more reasonable than others. But there comes a point where your constant criticism (and I do mean constant - it's impossible to find a thread discussing BS's work without you two joining in the negativity and explaining to the less enlightened how poor the writing really is and how little effort BS made to improve this) crosses the line from critique to rudeness. It's unpleasant to constantly read.

 

And finally, I more than slightly tired of the talk that Brandon didn't work hard on this. I think it's been shown enough that that's simply BS (and that one doesn't stand for Brandon Sanderson) and the man work his butt off. If you don't think he did a good enough job, then fine. But quit acting like the fact that he didn't take your message board complaints to heart and "fix" those things means that he didn't try to get things right.

 

So I imagine this will be my last post for awhile (unless it's to respond to people regarding this) since, even if this doesn't get me a timeout, I'm just not interested in spending my time wallowing in negativity.

 

The problem isn't that he didn't try hard on this. The problem is, as Luckers stated, that the general consensus is that he didn't do HIS best work. Some of this is poor work for Brandon Sanderson.

 

Accepting it is imperfect, reading the story, and enjoying it as much as you can is one option. But like I said in another post, the entire existence of these forums is because RJs world building, foreshadowing, and attention to detail was so fantastic that it became necessary to pool together resources to try and figure all of the details and foreshadowing out. Suddenly, BS is writing books with attention to detail that is so poor that we cannot even use these forums for their purpose. We don't know if a detail mentioned is an intentional nugget to foreshadow or imply a future event that we can incorporate into a theory or if it is just flat out a careless mistake by BS. So...when everyone comes here to discuss the story it is literally impossible NOT to bring up the poor quality of some of the work. We simply cannot just ignore some of the Sanderson issues because they directly impact what people do here on these forums.

 

I agree the negativity sucks, but its there for a reason and it actually is impossible to just close your eyes and pretend it doesnt exist while trying to constructively post on these forums and guess what is going to happen next.

 

Three quick off the cuff examples:

 

1) Petra at the gate in Mat's chapter. Is there a reason for that? Is it important? Should we speculate? Or...given history of mistakes...is it more likely that BS just messed up and any speculation is a waste of our time?

2) Taren Ferry being a wasteland when it was a thriving town not too long ago. Does that mean some terrible event occured in the Two Rivers area that wiped them out? Should we speculate? Or is it just a mistake...

3) Moridins dreamshard. Was Taim potentially a construct? Wouldn't Moghedien have noticed if something was strange in the dream environment? Or is the entire thing just a little personal touch of Brandon that was done poorly?

 

Do you see how it actually is difficult to talk about the series and the books without getting into the problems of quality?

[MarkDiLillo]

I have no idea where it is, but someone said that RJ's notes read that Perrin might go the way of the leaf. I even commented on what a 'wow' that is.

 

As for characterization - there are great writers who could not write a character the same way as the original author. I doubt that Tolkien, if he were alive, could carry off Mat in a style that most people thought matched up to how RJ wrote him.

 

Is that for sure? I actually am shocked if that is the case. Unless it was just a "might be fun to have Perrin go this route" and he never gave it too much seriousness.

[thisguy]

I have no idea where it is, but someone said that RJ's notes read that Perrin might go the way of the leaf. I even commented on what a 'wow' that is.

 

As for characterization - there are great writers who could not write a character the same way as the original author. I doubt that Tolkien, if he were alive, could carry off Mat in a style that most people thought matched up to how RJ wrote him.

 

Is that for sure? I actually am shocked if that is the case. Unless it was just a "might be fun to have Perrin go this route" and he never gave it too much seriousness.

No. I'm sure. It was under another topic where we started speaking about Brandon and what he's done.

[Suttree]

And now this site isn't even fun to come on any more. I used to be an active poster but this place is such a quagmire of negativity now that I don't even like being here. And most of that "for good reason" negativity is extremely overblown. And, yes, that is lead by those supposedly high minded and objective posters such as Luckers and Suttree.

 

Sure you base your comments on actual criticism of the work. And they are much better written and more reasonable than others. But there comes a point where your constant criticism (and I do mean constant - it's impossible to find a thread discussing BS's work without you two joining in the negativity and explaining to the less enlightened how poor the writing really is and how little effort BS made to improve this) crosses the line from critique to rudeness. It's unpleasant to constantly read.

 

Hey Mark, first off let me say it's good to see you around. As you know we agreed on things more often than not over the years and I have always enjoyed your contributions. Sorry that you feel the way you do concerning the above and to be honest coming from you it will make me be a bit more self aware when posting. Having said that if a thread is about BS's work are we not supposed to present the viewpoints we have reached after a very careful study? I have never given anyting other than an honest assesment of which I feel fairly well qualified to make. I have presented both the good and bad in TGS and ToM over the years and it it leans more toward the later now it is only because it all stands out so much more in rereads. To say it goes from critique to rudeness is pretty much unwarranted. To my mind it is far worse to take a "see no evile, hear no evil" approach and ignore the faults. The fans doing that after TGS is part of what has lead to the situation getting worse.

 

And finally, I more than slightly tired of the talk that Brandon didn't work hard on this. I think it's been shown enough that that's simply BS (and that one doesn't stand for Brandon Sanderson) and the man work his butt off. If you don't think he did a good enough job, then fine. But quit acting like the fact that he didn't take your message board complaints to heart and "fix" those things means that he didn't try to get things right.

 

Except for the fact that it wasn't only board complaints. Luckers was specifically requested to submit a critique. In addtion there has been a well documented pattern of BS insulating himself and using the praise of casual fans as proof of getting things "right". This is highlighted by his claims of figuring out Mat's character and yet the ch. 11 release still containing all of the elements that he got wrong in the first place. As for him working hard I have gotten some glimpses into the process and can say honestly I question that at this point. Working fast is not the same as working hard. To quote the great John Wooden "be quick, but don't hurry". Just to name one thing that I can talk about we know for instance that he didn't even use the "extra time" we were all so happy about AMoL getting. Instead of spending those months revising and polsihing he washed his hands and claimed he was done.

 

I have no idea where it is, but someone said that RJ's notes read that Perrin might go the way of the leaf. I even commented on what a 'wow' that is.

 

As for characterization - there are great writers who could not write a character the same way as the original author. I doubt that Tolkien, if he were alive, could carry off Mat in a style that most people thought matched up to how RJ wrote him.

 

Is that for sure? I actually am shocked if that is the case. Unless it was just a "might be fun to have Perrin go this route" and he never gave it too much seriousness.

No. I'm sure. It was under another topic where we started speaking about Brandon and what he's done.

 

 

This is unequivically false. Luckers was the one who reported it and it was an idea Brandon came up with on his own that was shot down by Harriet.

[MarkDiLillo]

Perrin going the WotL would have been a tough one for me to swallow. I'm glad that was shot down. Perrin is actually the POV that I think Brandon does best with. Minus a few bloopers, I enjoyed reading most of the Perrin sections.

[Luckers]

I have no idea where it is, but someone said that RJ's notes read that Perrin might go the way of the leaf. I even commented on what a 'wow' that is.

 

I can confirm one hundred percent that this is not true. I'm guessing someone got confused about my report about Brandon wanting Perrin to go to the Way of the Leaf. If it helps, it included a part about Brandon talking about situations where Jordan's notes said 'maybe I'll do this, or maybe I'll do this other completely opposite thing and Brandon had to decide between the two', so I can see why this person got mislead.

 

That being said, no. This was never in Jordan's notes. It was Brandon's idea. This is fact.

[thisguy]

I have no idea where it is, but someone said that RJ's notes read that Perrin might go the way of the leaf. I even commented on what a 'wow' that is.

 

I can confirm one hundred percent that this is not true. I'm guessing someone got confused about my report about Brandon wanting Perrin to go to the Way of the Leaf. If it helps, it included a part about Brandon talking about situations where Jordan's notes said 'maybe I'll do this, or maybe I'll do this other completely opposite thing and Brandon had to decide between the two', so I can see why this person got mislead.

 

That being said, no. This was never in Jordan's notes. It was Brandon's idea. This is fact.

I believe you, man. I know for a fact it wasn't you who said this. I am in no way laying this at your feet.

[Luckers]

I have no idea where it is, but someone said that RJ's notes read that Perrin might go the way of the leaf. I even commented on what a 'wow' that is.

 

I can confirm one hundred percent that this is not true. I'm guessing someone got confused about my report about Brandon wanting Perrin to go to the Way of the Leaf. If it helps, it included a part about Brandon talking about situations where Jordan's notes said 'maybe I'll do this, or maybe I'll do this other completely opposite thing and Brandon had to decide between the two', so I can see why this person got mislead.

 

That being said, no. This was never in Jordan's notes. It was Brandon's idea. This is fact.

I believe you, man. I know for a fact it wasn't you who said this. I am in no way laying this at your feet.

 

Lol, I hadn't thought you were. What I am saying to you is that whoever you were talking to was wrong.

[thisguy]

I have no idea where it is, but someone said that RJ's notes read that Perrin might go the way of the leaf. I even commented on what a 'wow' that is.

 

I can confirm one hundred percent that this is not true. I'm guessing someone got confused about my report about Brandon wanting Perrin to go to the Way of the Leaf. If it helps, it included a part about Brandon talking about situations where Jordan's notes said 'maybe I'll do this, or maybe I'll do this other completely opposite thing and Brandon had to decide between the two', so I can see why this person got mislead.

 

That being said, no. This was never in Jordan's notes. It was Brandon's idea. This is fact.

I believe you, man. I know for a fact it wasn't you who said this. I am in no way laying this at your feet.

 

Lol, I hadn't thought you were. What I am saying to you is that whoever you were talking to was wrong.

I got it.

 

Anyway, things are what they are. I am curious to know why you think I'm idealistic in saying that if the time offered was not ok that they should have gotten another writer. If you're over the conversation, I'm fine with that, too.

[MarkDiLillo]

Welp - I'm glad that bit is false. Confirms my personal judgements of Perrin as RJ wrote him.

[he who comes with a bong]

And, what I find funny is that it's fine to critique the work but not to critique the critique of the work.

 

Because this is rarely if ever done. Where are the counter examples disproving what is being said? Where are the posts showing the opposite of blunt prose or poor characterization. We never get that, what we get is the disingenuous claims of people being "whiners", "complainers" or "hyenas". Many times followed by a just be grateful we are getting the finish. Well just getting the finish isnt nearly good enough.

 

Why cant we just accept that they wont be as good as the original authors and never will be.

 

That's missing the point. It's about Brandon and his personnel growth as an author. For most of the people that genuinely care about the series and aren't just looking to bash that is the key point.

 

See i understand that. I care quite a bit about the series, but im not going to bash any one, it could of been better done. That it wasnt thats ok with me, i really would of not picked up on anything that wasnt along the lines of being like the original author,if it wasnt for this site. Now when i do a re read i can just tell that everything is a little bit off of what could of been better. Almost like this book is a mirror of the wheel and it is just off from the original in that aspect.

[Luckers]

Anyway, things are what they are. I am curious to know why you think I'm idealistic in saying that if the time offered was not ok that they should have gotten another writer. If you're over the conversation, I'm fine with that, too.

 

To be honest, that was a quip... a valid one, mind--despite the play made about Brandon being selected from a list, they needed an American or Canadian Tor based writer of enough experience to take on the Wheel but not enough success to refuse it who had also read the Wheel of Time. The short list was... short.

 

But the real reason behind my reaction to your comment is that it wasn't realistic in any sense. I'll be honest though, the professional interaction you think occurred... I wish that had occurred, on all fronts.

[thisguy]

Anyway, things are what they are. I am curious to know why you think I'm idealistic in saying that if the time offered was not ok that they should have gotten another writer. If you're over the conversation, I'm fine with that, too.

 

To be honest, that was a quip... a valid one, mind--despite the play made about Brandon being selected from a list, they needed an American or Canadian Tor based writer of enough experience to take on the Wheel but not enough success to refuse it who had also read the Wheel of Time. The short list was... short.

 

But the real reason behind my reaction to your comment is that it wasn't realistic in any sense. I'll be honest though, the professional interaction you think occurred... I wish that had occurred, on all fronts.

So, what you're saying is that Brandon was the best of what's left?

[Suttree]

To be honest, that was a quip... a valid one, mind--despite the play made about Brandon being selected from a list, they needed an American or Canadian Tor based writer of enough experience to take on the Wheel but not enough success to refuse it who had also read the Wheel of Time. The short list was... short.

 

Hey Luckers(or anyone who might have some input), do you know if J.V. Jones was ever considered? Not sure if she read WoT and maybe unrealistic with her own troubles getting books out but I think it could have been an interesting choice purely from a writing perspective. Similar style to RJ with great detail.