I think I found one bit of evidence that lends support to two old theories.

[Balefire to da face!]

It is an interesting coincidence.

 

Of all the clues for Mat's relationship to Judas, I suspect the 30 silver is the most likely to be a coincidence. It seems like a pretty strong reference in that the 30 silver pieces is a very commonly known aspect of the Judas story. But on the flip side, there are quite a few Mat gambling scenes throughout the books, and he's often thinking in his head how much of this or that currency he has. So that increases the chance that if these amounts were chosen at random by Jordan "just because" that one might just happen to be 30 silver and mean nothing significant..

 

On the other hand, what may make it significant as foreshadowing is that it was one of Mat's very first PoV in the series, if memory serves, following only his time in the Tower and then the Tower training ground scuffle with Galad and Gawyn. As his first PoV gambling streak, even if it's not his very first PoV overall, it's basically the first opportunity that Jordan could have put in such a reference, assuming he meant to. To me that increases the chance that it's a bonafide reference from Jordan.

 

Why? Well I was just reading Dom over on Theoryland, and he summed up in a good way something I have noticed about the clues introduced in the first three books. It was about a completely different subject, but the more I think of TGS and ToM the more I think it applies as a general rule......

 

So far there's not many elements of cultural/world building RJ introduced that have no bearing of some sort on the finale of the series (not surprising since he reversed engineered the main points). There even seems to be an unwritten rule of thumb that the earliest the elements were introduced, the more "central" they are (the circle is closing, we've returned massively to EOTW/TGH/TDR plot points and elements... Justice, the Ways, Shadar Logoth, Moiraine, Malkier, the Seanchan and Ishamael, the Ogier, the Way of the Leaf, Andor's doom, the wolves, Manetheren etc.).

 

In other words, first in last out(Brandon would appreciate that reference )

 

This makes sense, since it seems round about TDR's release Jordan still thought he could finish the series in about 6 books. As Jordan allowed the universe to expand, a lot of the foreshadowing in later books had to do with impending resolutions that were never central to the original plot to begin with.

 

Which is a long winded way of saying that since Dem looks to be one of the last big things in the series, and likely was always meant to be. that would mean it is possible this could be a connection to Dem having his hand in the Seafolk cookie jar. It need not have been Dem himself, he could have sent someone else to keep an eye on Mat. Though off the top of my head, I am not even sure if Dem was released by the first half of TDR.

[Jak o' the Shadows]

If Mat betrays Rand and turns 'evil'..I'm burning the entire series.

 

Ha!

 

That seems to be everyone's reaction when they first hear the theory.

 

:)

 

I couldn't handle it if he suddenly reverted to Book 1 Mat and went back to being annoying and petty. I personally feel that that would never happen because

A) The time invested in developing his character out of the 'prankster hillbilly'

B) because of the changes in Mat himself mainly due to memories, but also experiences and self realizations as he's adventured around

C) because even at his core Mat is still Mat. He is Rand's friend. He IS an honorable man.

 

So unless the 'betrayal' is something like "Mat won't kill Tuon for me" (like Darth Rand throw back or something), or he does something that unintentional disrupts Rand's plans (like saves his life, or blows the Horn to win the battle but 'mucks up' Rands plans) and we call THAT a betrayal....not going to happen.

[Barid Bel Medar]

RJ liked to twist his myths and legends, so I can see this happening without Mat really betraying Rand. I can see him doing something that seem like a betrayal, that will be remembered years and years later when myth fades to legends and such, but will actually be something Rand asked him to do. For example, someone killing Rand. I don't think Mat will be the one to do it, but something like that, where it is a case of "Holy mother of the Creator, they killed the Dragon Reborn" that will be passed down the generations, where in actual fact Rand asks that person to do so, so he can be resurrected and able to win the LB.

 

Not saying that that will happen, but just an example of something that might seem like a betrayal, but actually is nothing of the sort. Like Perrin and Rand's "fight" in aCoS.

[Balefire to da face!]

RJ liked to twist his myths and legends, so I can see this happening without Mat really betraying Rand. I can see him doing something that seem like a betrayal, that will be remembered years and years later when myth fades to legends and such, but will actually be something Rand asked him to do. For example, someone killing Rand. I don't think Mat will be the one to do it, but something like that, where it is a case of "Holy mother of the Creator, they killed the Dragon Reborn" that will be passed down the generations, where in actual fact Rand asks that person to do so, so he can be resurrected and able to win the LB.

 

Not saying that that will happen, but just an example of something that might seem like a betrayal, but actually is nothing of the sort. Like Perrin and Rand's "fight" in aCoS.

 

Terez has an interesting theory on the Twice Dawning Day.

 

I very much doubt the big details in that theory, but in general I think there is a very good chance that if Rand "needs" to die once or even twice at some point(s) in aMoL, Moiraine might be the one pulling the trigger. Jordan and Brandon have both played Mo's 3 questions very close to the vest. All the way back in '05 Jordan said....

 

Week 19 Question: What were Moiraine's three questions that she asked the Aelfinn and what were their answers? If the whole answer is RAFO could you give us one Q&A?

Robert Jordan Answers: Sorry, guys. This one is a big time RAFO.

 

 

In short, those questions aren't a throw away. They are going to play a big part. And now that we've had the pleasure of getting some plot resolutions in TGS and ToM, that narrows even further what those questions could pertain to. Rand has almost nothing left to do but organize the Light forces, ink some post LB agreement with the nations and Seanchan, then his appointment as Shayol Ghul. We know Mo is vital to something in there(Min's viewing of Rand failing without a woman dead and gone) and even if I don't think Mo will balefire the beejebus out of him, the reasoning that one of her answers was how/why she has to kill the Dragon Reborn to defeat the Shadow would be consistent with a lot of clues.

 

So, that all said, could Mat's very "betrayal" be that he saved the woman that is to help Rand by killing him?!

 

I don't know whether I like this idea more or less then a more direct Mat involvement in this possible betrayal. I like Terez's more direct scenerios....but there is a certain delicious sinuous nature to the Mat->Mo->Rand possibility.

[Jak o' the Shadows]

RJ liked to twist his myths and legends, so I can see this happening without Mat really betraying Rand. I can see him doing something that seem like a betrayal, that will be remembered years and years later when myth fades to legends and such, but will actually be something Rand asked him to do. For example, someone killing Rand. I don't think Mat will be the one to do it, but something like that, where it is a case of "Holy mother of the Creator, they killed the Dragon Reborn" that will be passed down the generations, where in actual fact Rand asks that person to do so, so he can be resurrected and able to win the LB.

 

Not saying that that will happen, but just an example of something that might seem like a betrayal, but actually is nothing of the sort. Like Perrin and Rand's "fight" in aCoS.

 

Oh I'm guessing Rand is going to die at some point, probably at his own request...but I think Mat is way down the list to do it.

 

Pretty sure it'll be a trusted AS, maybe Moraine, maybe Alviarin (I seem to recall a prophecy or viewing or something said she was going to be the one to do it...)

 

Mat'll be busy kicking Demmy's Army's butt with no time for betrayal.

 

 

Unless it's in the appendices like this, this I could deal with:

 

Rand looked her up and down. To himself he thought 'Oh man, that is a fine looking woman. I could use me a 4th wife'. Even as he thought this, the dark skinned beauty sauntered up to him.

 

With his most dashing smirk Rand laid on the charm. "Hi there. I'm the Dragon reborn. Master of half the world. How you doing?" Her eyes became saucers, not at his words, but rather at the hand he had put on her backside.

 

Rand never saw the dagger until it was already up to it's hilt in his back.

 

Sputtering, dying, he turned to face his attacker. Who? After all the trials and battles, surviving Tarmon Gai'don against the Dark One himself! to die like this...it was too much. As the light faded from his eyes understanding shone briefly before being extinguished forever.

 

"Bloody flaming fool. That's my wife"

[Balefire to da face!]

 

 

I like how you turned Rand into Joey from Friends.....

 

"How you doin"

[Jak o' the Shadows]

 

 

I like how you turned Rand into Joey from Friends.....

 

"How you doin"

 

The man IS a pimp. I mean THREE wives? You know he's doing something right...

[Veracohr]

I would consider it more likely that Mat is a descendant of Aemon, rather than Aemon reborn, for why would reborn souls respect hereditary lines?

 

There's probably lots of people in the Two Rivers who are descendents of Aemon, especially those of the al'Caar and al'Thor families. What is it, 2000 years since Manetheren died? Bloodlines get pretty diluted and mixed after that amount of time.

[TootThatHorn]

Has Mat just met Demandred, I wonder?

 

No and I would put much more than 30 silver on that answer.

As soon as i read Far sorry man i nevr could get th hang of your name my abject apologies but while I was reading that post I said sutt is going to refute it and there it is

 

No problems, muddasssir, most people just call me FSM if they're in a rush!

 

But I should point out that Suttree has not in fact refuted it. He has merely stated a different opinion (which, Sutt, you are entirely entitled to do). His opinion may indeed turn out to be valid. We'll soon know.. But to refute something you need to supply evidence, because it means to prove somebody or something wrong:

 

http://dictionary.re...m/browse/refute

 

Sorry about that, but it's one of those problems with precision that makes me

 

Anyway, it wasn't clear whether you agreed with him or not..

 

Oh, and @herid:

 

To be fair though this is like a flying spaghetti monster thing; I can put out this hypothesis because there is no evidence to dispute it. More than likely it was just one of the many ways to show that the world is getting towards upheaval and people are being found in areas where you wouldn't normally expect them to be. Sea Folk guy in TV? Wouldn't normally happen unless the pattern was putting people in places they otherwise wouldn't be due to the ever changing atmosphere of the Dragon rising and the LB coming.

 

Ah yes - what I would call 'Russell's teapot'. Which has in common with Occam's Razor that it's a useful technique but not a law of nature.

 

Oh, and by the way:

 

http://www.merriam-w...nary/hypothesis

 

(puts away )

 

That aside, yes the Pattern might be putting people in strange places, but it was not (yet) bodily picking them up and moving them, like the rooms in the White Tower that shifted around or the Blighted area that Perrin found (ToM4). There would have to be a reasonably sensible chain of events leading to him being present.

 

And again, I find the fact that he turns up in conjunction with those 30 marks as being very interesting.

 

Yes the teapot is good as well, i went with flying spaghetti monster because, well, FSM I like the correlation of the 30 silver marks...as far as the pattern, and until otherwise proven I fancy it just subtlies of the pattern. Maybe it's some lint because it hasn't been washed yet lol.

[Finnssss22]

I would consider it more likely that Mat is a descendant of Aemon, rather than Aemon reborn, for why would reborn souls respect hereditary lines?

 

There's probably lots of people in the Two Rivers who are descendents of Aemon, especially those of the al'Caar and al'Thor families. What is it, 2000 years since Manetheren died? Bloodlines get pretty diluted and mixed after that amount of time.

 

Aemon al'Caar al'Thorin

Caar Thorin

Cauthon

 

=D

[kght22]

while i don't think that mat will betray rand myself, i think that people here should keep in mind that mat betraying rand, and turning to the shadow, could easily be two separate things. if mat does somehow betray rand, that does not mean that he has turned to the shadow. but as i said i don't think either betrayal is very likely to happen. although if it does it might be that much more interesting.

 

I think it's getting a bit late in the day, plotwise, for Mat to turn to the Shadow. It might also be a bit late for a betrayal; that would be a major event, nearly up there with Rand preparing to balefire the entire world. It would simply not get the treatment it needs at this late stage.

i must ask, did my post say anything contrary to what you replied with? if so when you reply to someone's post disagree with it. or if you reply to a post you agree with, show agreement. don't just quote one person with an ambiguous comment, you can do that by yourself, just like i did with my comment that you quoted. so i must ask, why did you quote me?

[herid]

I would consider it more likely that Mat is a descendant of Aemon, rather than Aemon reborn, for why would reborn souls respect hereditary lines?

 

There's probably lots of people in the Two Rivers who are descendents of Aemon, especially those of the al'Caar and al'Thor families. What is it, 2000 years since Manetheren died? Bloodlines get pretty diluted and mixed after that amount of time.

yes, it's a good point about mixing of the bloodlines. but I'm not really totally against Mat being Aemon reborn either. He's got to be either one or the other based on the memories that come out in TDR after he is Healed. I just wouldn't like him to be both. Nothing wrong with that technically but it would be pushing the coincidence too much plotwise IMO. In any case, as I said before, even if Mat is Aemon, I find highly doubtful that the "Field of Blood" name is a reference to that or to Mat as Judas.

[FarShainMael]

while i don't think that mat will betray rand myself, i think that people here should keep in mind that mat betraying rand, and turning to the shadow, could easily be two separate things. if mat does somehow betray rand, that does not mean that he has turned to the shadow. but as i said i don't think either betrayal is very likely to happen. although if it does it might be that much more interesting.

 

I think it's getting a bit late in the day, plotwise, for Mat to turn to the Shadow. It might also be a bit late for a betrayal; that would be a major event, nearly up there with Rand preparing to balefire the entire world. It would simply not get the treatment it needs at this late stage.

i must ask, did my post say anything contrary to what you replied with? if so when you reply to someone's post disagree with it. or if you reply to a post you agree with, show agreement. don't just quote one person with an ambiguous comment, you can do that by yourself, just like i did with my comment that you quoted. so i must ask, why did you quote me?

 

I thought it was clear enough that I was agreeing with you, and supplying reasons why I agreed. I was developing your point.

 

@Balefire:

..could Mat's very "betrayal" be that he saved the woman {Moiraine} that is to help Rand by killing him?!

 

Neat; but the problem is, it's Alivia who will 'help Rand die'.

[Suttree]

I would consider it more likely that Mat is a descendant of Aemon, rather than Aemon reborn, for why would reborn souls respect hereditary lines?

 

There's probably lots of people in the Two Rivers who are descendents of Aemon, especially those of the al'Caar and al'Thor families. What is it, 2000 years since Manetheren died? Bloodlines get pretty diluted and mixed after that amount of time.

 

SLEEPINGHOUR

 

In The Eye of the World, is Mat remembering the Old Tongue from his own past life or from his ancestors?

 

TEREZ

 

Good question. He seems to have confirmed Old Blood for the Old Tongue, but the Aemon memory?

FELIX PAX

 

That's what my belief is, Aemon. Mat Cauthon is the reborn soul of Aemon. Aemon's Old Tongue.

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

It isn't made clear. It could be either. The implication is his bloodline.

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

The Aemon connection is certainly implied strongly.

[herid]

thanks, Suttree. It always pays to look in the interview database first.

[Suttree]

thanks, Suttree. It always pays to look in the interview database first.

 

No worries, we even get a bonus Felix Pax sighting with this one!