The Guardians balance the Servants

[XXX]

Mat was not "impressed" by Jolie. He was surprised that she knew something about tactics considering that his opinion of AS is pretty much close to zero.

 

Even if the Green know something about tactics(which we never see them drill or practice with regular armies so I doubt how much their text book knowledge is worth) that is just one of the Ajahs. SO will the rest of the AS work under Generals and other commoners? I mean they have to, unless all the AS fight only in AS led units which have Greens in command.

 

Which also pretty much leaves them out of any army commanded by the Great Generals or Mat.

 

PS:-The people who know how to incorporate channelers in combat best are the Seachen by far.Will the AS fight under Seachen commanders?

[BFG]

I'd incorporate the AS in with the Borderland armies - their's already relationships built (Moiraine is well known and respected as an example), the AS do have a presence there is greater numbers than elsewhere - Tenobia(?) and 1 other borderlander monarch brought 10 AS between them to meet the DR, this is after we've heard that some Borderlander AS have headed back to the Tower. So this implies that the AS have a working relationship with the Borderlanders, therefore that's the logical place to use them.

 

Perrin probably keeps those he's got (mixture Ashaman.AS/WO) plus maybe more Ashaman.

 

Mat and the Band get to bring the Seanchan into the mix, enough said...

 

The Seanchan are difficult - kneejerk reaction is to say that they won't work with uncollared channelers or vice versa - but the Deathwatch Guards have, Perrins 'friends' have, their armies are now intermixed with Randlanders - although this may not help, as most AS are met with suspicion out of the Borderlands - so I'm not sure any more.

[Suttree]

Mat was not "impressed" by Jolie. He was surprised that she knew something about tactics considering that his opinion of AS is pretty much close to zero.

 

Even if the Green know something about tactics(which we never see them drill or practice with regular armies so I doubt how much their text book knowledge is worth) that is just one of the Ajahs. SO will the rest of the AS work under Generals and other commoners? I mean they have to, unless all the AS fight only in AS led units which have Greens in command.

 

Which also pretty much leaves them out of any army commanded by the Great Generals or Mat.

 

PS:-The people who know how to incorporate channelers in combat best are the Seachen by far.Will the AS fight under Seachen commanders?

 

1. Although you seem to have tempered your extremely biased views about AS as of late not sure why you would repeat this false belief about Mat. I recall those old conversations in which various people pointed out to you that Mat said that although "he had not needed advice" Joline did indeed know what she was about when it came to war. There is nothing that indicates suprise in the exchange.

 

2. Why would you think Greens don't drill with their army in Tar Valon? Again this is valuable knowledge on how to incorporate channelers into banners from when the military arts were at their height passed directly down from Rashima Kerenmosa to the current day AS.

 

3. Of course other AS combined with AShaman will work under the Generals. But a portion of the tactics will come from the Greens.

 

4. The Seanchan using Damane who know nothing of linking is far different from knowing how to best use independent channelers within the framework of an army.

[fionwe1987]

Well, I would think that it's the suldam's experience that would matter more than the damane, since they're the one's who are in control.

Since sul'dam have normal lifespans, then this actually means the Seanchan don't have great experience with large scale OP warfare. Sure, they know all this theoretically, but so do the Aes Sedai and Warders.

 

There wouldn't really be any duels in large scale battles. It would be much more similar to Dumai's Wells, where the two groups throw destruction at each other. The difference I see is that the damane have more experience with just plain obliterating things. There may not have been battles with hundreds of damane on each side for a long time but Karede does mention that he has been in battles where both sides had damane. With all the rebellions going on in Seanchan, I would assume that the damane have quite a bit of experience. In the case of duels I would actually say the Aes Sedai have the advantage since you can get a little more creative in that case.

We really don't know how good or bad AS are at obliterating things. We know something about their defensive capabilities (and how bad that can get with no coordination). The only case we have of Aes Sedai on offensive is Verin and Alanna against the Trollocs, Joline and co. against the Seanchan and Moiraine against Trollocs. And none of those cases are substantially worse than the way damane do things. Joline and co. hardly counts since they couldn't let loose early on. In the other cases, the difference seems to be in the way destruction is delivered. Aes Sedai seem to go for concentrated bursts of extensive damage, while damane seem to keep up a more continuous stream of lesser damage. Its machine gun vs. missile, and neither is completely perfect.

 

No they appear slightly after. Well, actually that's when Sevanna notices their arrival. But in any case we don't know how long the Aes Sedai held off the Asha'man, since the Asha'man had plenty of Shaido to work their way through before reaching the Aes Sedai, or how many Aes Sedai Rand took out.

Fair enough. Let's just say there hasn't been an Aes Sedai vs. Asha'man battle we can use in our discussion.

The danger could have come from any side but it never did. No circle ever had to deal with Greandal in front, and Cyndane behind.

The circle near Rand did.

The thing is if the circle of 13 is so far away from the front lines, their attacks will take far longer to reach the soldiers, giving the opposing channellers more time to react.

How so? Weaves Travel at the speed of light. If they play it right, and Aes Sedai circles are placed on high ground with good visibility, their extended range will make them much better prepared to destroy enemy soldiers. Look at how Rand, Egwene and Aviendha did it.

And what is more who protects the soldiers?

You're making the mistake of assuming that an offensive side with circles will choose to send in the soldiers first. The better tactic is to keep the soldiers close around the circles, let the circles attack with their extended range, drawing the enemy channelers out, at which point you send in soldiers via Gateways accompanied by smaller circles for protection against reserve channelers left behind. Since the first strike from the circles will be far stronger than anything a single channeler can counter, they'll begin by inflicting serious damage, which will leave the enemy with no option but to try and respond.

We saw this both at Dumai's Wells and at Malden where the Shaido Wise One's were always farther from the front lines, and as such not only were their attacks far less effective, but they were unable defend their own troops.

Those Wise Ones were not in a circle.

Not only that but because you have only one person weaving they can only send so many attacks at once, whereas the Seanchan will be ables to send 13 times more. I would much rather deal with one big attack than 13 small ones.

Yes. 13 machine gun rounds aimed at a tank vs. tank launched precision missiles. Clearly you pick the machine guns.

It's pretty much a given that one of the 13 will get through,

Really? How so?

whereas the big attack, if it can't be stopped entirely, can at least be minimized.

Again, how? I don't remember even the Foresaken being able to handle Elza's attacks.

No matter how much power the circle gives, the person leading it is only human, with only one brain and 2 eyes, and since we're speaking of Aes Sedai who love to waive their hands, only two hands. She can only react to so much.

But that's assuming she needs a separate reaction to each threat. Such is hardly the case. You don't need one shield for a fireball, one for lightning and one for exploding earth. Nor do these have to be continuously woven. You can tie them off, and undoing them is extremely hard for individual channelers.

The twelve Aes Sedai she's linked with are worth no more than angreal, except you have to protect them. Since a circle of 13 is powerful, the enemy will never try to attack it head on. That would just be playing to it's strengths. Instead focus on the regular soldiers, who will have less channellers protecting them, since so many are being used by the circles. Any channeller being used up by the circle of 13 or the circles protecting it, is a channeller who is out of the equation.

But why send soldiers to the frontline right away? You're creating a ridiculous tactic and asking the circles to be effective there. Anyone with sense will use the extended reach and power of the circles first and then send the ground troops. Your idea is the equivalent of asking a modern army to send its gound forces in first and then sending in the Airforce to protect them. That's not how its done.

In a defensive battle, I agree that circles of 13 are a huge advantage. But in an offensive battle where the circle would have to go to the enemy, it's far more risky. And of course you have to take into consideration whether regular soldiers are participating or not. If there are, then the Aes Sedai will have less channellers protecting their troops. If there aren't than the damane have no need to protect theirs and can spread out playing to the cirlcle of 13's weakness.

If there are no soldiers in the first wave of attack, the damane can ignore the damage it is doing to their soldiers?

 

Now of course, having the option of forming circles is an advantage, but they won't be the answer to every situation.

Of course not. Whoever said that. Come up with a crappy plan which uses a superior air force, army against a worse equipped and powered army and you'll still have a crappy plan where your advantages will only mildly improve the situation. The Aes Sedai will obviously have to use the strengths of circles. I'm contesting your claim that circles are always going to be a drag in offensive combat. That's just not true.

[Maleshub]

Regarding the use of Aes Sedai in battle after the Trolloc Wars, there are some examples that might be taken into consideration:

- 20 year siege of Tar Valon by Hawkwing's armies that didn't breach the city (only cited because it is some 800 years after the Trolloc Wars and probably a heavily recorded period in WT history).

- Aiel War 22 years earlier and Aes Sedai helping out in the field with the armies of Randland (most surviving Tower AS have that experience under their belt).

- Perrin's use of Aes Sedai, Ashaman and Wise Ones in battle (Malden and Graendal's trap) as well as his earlier use of Verin and Alanna in the defense of the Two Rivers

- Dumai Wells

- Aes Sedai in the battle at Agarin's Manor in Tear, a major battle.

- Mat's incorporation of Joline, Teslyn, and Edesina in his harrying campaign.

 

I think that Aes Sedai have what it takes to become involved in large scale battles if necessary. The Greens actually make a study of the issue (their lackluster display in the Seanchan raid was more due to lack of preparation, surprise, and internal WT strife than lack of knowledge).

 

And we have Jason's hint that Egwene will shine in AMoL. I am sure that will include her leadership of Aes Sedai to support Rand and defeat the forces of the Shadow on the field.

 

Regarding the Great Escape, I don't think that the Sea Folk exploit there should be belittled. They did admirably well getting out of the Lion's den. They lost a few hundred casualties and some WF'ers were recaptured. But the majority of several thousand prisoners escaped and decapitated the Seanchan fleet to stop pursuit. I hope that Mat and Nestelle meet in AMoL only for the Sea Folk to recognize that they have a debt owed to the Prince of the Ravens.

[Kittyspagitty]

Maybe my memory doesn't serve me well, but wasn't Adelorna - the Captain-General of the Green Ajah herself - complaining about the lack of 'preparedness' of the AS during the attack on the WT? Basically no organization, definitely a complete lack of willingness to follow suggestions/orders by their fellow AS... Maybe the Green have studied battles, but I doubt they have as much insight and quick-response skills as the average I-fight-with-my-sword Great General.

[Suttree]

Maybe my memory doesn't serve me well, but wasn't Adelorna - the Captain-General of the Green Ajah herself - complaining about the lack of 'preparedness' of the AS during the attack on the WT? Basically no organization, definitely a complete lack of willingness to follow suggestions/orders by their fellow AS... Maybe the Green have studied battles, but I doubt they have as much insight and quick-response skills as the average I-fight-with-my-sword Great General.

 

Adelorna rues her own performance but as stated earlier there are reasons for that and the issues you cite above. They have very little to do with AS training. The WT was split, a Forsaken had been pulling strings to cause chaos and dissension through Elaida's orders, it was riddled by BA members and Fain's influence had ratcheted up the paranoia. Think about it, at the time of the sneak attack every Ajah was it's own armed encampment. Sisters were being assaulted for walking in the wrong area! On top of all that it was a sneak attack raid, which has nothing to do with a large scale battle.

 

As for what they have studied there is no "maybe"about it. We know for fact that tactics are part of their training and they can plan battle strategies equal to most Generals(not the Great-Captains of course). Again they are the inheritors of knowledge passed down from Rashima Kerenmosa whose plans came from a time in the Trolloc Wars where the military arts were at their height. It will be interesting to see how they fare at TG.

[Kittyspagitty]

Suttree, you're absolutely right pointing out the difficulties for the AS during the WT attack. I guess what my point is, is that IMO reading or learning about something is not the same as having done it. That's for me the strong point about Mat's inherited skills: he doesn't just have the knowledge of all those dead people, he actually has their own memories. In a way, he has fought all those battles himself. I'm also looking forward to TG, especially with several AS that are just awesome by themselves. I hope the WT attack has given them this extra bit of experience. I'm just a bit sceptical about their fighting power as a group.

[Morden]

I think the Aes Sedai, Greens, Browns and Whites in particular will shock people in many ways. Greens are a very aggressive and adaptive bunch as a whole and they are aimed towards fighting shadowspawn. Browns have so much knowledge and I would be amazed if there arent a few who have read every article the could on battles, conquests and such, everyone has their own interests and passions afterall. As for Whites... Logic has an incredible value to planning battles and anticipating what your enemy will do. In many ways the Aes Sedai will only shine when they truly unite for a common cause with each group doing their part.

 

To me, I think there are potentially hundreds of people in Randland who could equal or at least come close to those who are known as the Great Captains. My reasons for why they do not get to show such ability is due to the structures of the nations armys. They are all led by nobles and the only exception to the list of Great Captains who was not a Noble was Pedron Niall, because the Children of the Light do not favour people for how nobly born they were, but more for skill/passion and how loyal they were, this does not always work well but it helps. I suspect the Tower Guard would have been similar had it not been more of a local police force/militia for Tar Valon.

 

Mat is just damned out of all proportions though, he has what equates to the same amount of battle knowledge of every single commander alive, wins and losses.

 

As for the WT in the future, well I think that they will have a plan inplace so that everyone will be assigned a battle plan including an angrael for each circle. Egwene was the only one who even thought about the store-room... and that was in part because she couldnt tap her own strength due to forkroot.

 

With a proper plan setup you have a whole different ballgame, because as soon as Seanchan or whomever arrive in Tar Valon the Aes Sedai will know they are in danger so will be able to perform fully. The Seanchan want those women alive and trying to shield someone who is in a link would be a bit more difficult I suspect.