be'lal

[Master of the Blades]

Thank You Majsju

 

May this thread welcome the 'last embrace of the mother'

[isleofjib]

how about this from that jordan interview referenced above:

WinespringBrother: How old is Taim and has he slowed?

 

Jordan: Taim has slowed, but one thing I am not going to reveal it in the books, so I’ll tell you, men slow later than women do. And yes, he has slowed, and he is in his late twenties, yes his late twenties.

 

woudln't this imply taim is just taim?

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

Wow there are other people out there who think this is possible.

 

how about this from that jordan interview referenced above:

Quote:

WinespringBrother: How old is Taim and has he slowed?

 

Jordan: Taim has slowed, but one thing I am not going to reveal it in the books, so I’ll tell you, men slow later than women do. And yes, he has slowed, and he is in his late twenties, yes his late twenties.

 

 

woudln't this imply taim is just taim?

 

Well, Taim was just Taim before being used as a vessel for Be'lal's soul, so his body could be any age.

 

 

Rahvin is balefired out of time, slain out of time, cannot be reached, gone. Be’lal, (names someone else)…,

 

This quote is confusing. What does he say about Be'lal? Just because he says "Be'lal" after a sentence about Rahvin's death doesn't mean that they share the same fate.

(Although I can understand why you think it does - and you may be right)

 

Sometimes I think people are just tossing out any possible theory they can think of so that when all is said and done, they can say "I told you so!"

 

Yes, that sweet, ephemeral moment of victory when one of my crackpot theories comes true is my motivation.

[TheoryMan]

I found it odd when Taim said, "You know the old saying... Let the lord of chaos rule." That set off little red lights in my head. I've only heard the forsaken mention that before.

[isleofjib]

I found it odd when Taim said' date=' "You know the old saying... Let the lord of chaos rule." That set off little red lights in my head. I've only heard the forsaken mention that before.[/quote']

 

yes, this and the color scheme in the hall where they meet taim really sounded like moridin to me. if there's one of the forsaken that is pretending to be taim, he's my choice.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I found it odd when Taim said' date=' "You know the old saying... Let the lord of chaos rule." That set off little red lights in my head. I've only heard the forsaken mention that before.[/quote']

 

You can lift the phrase Lord of Chaos right out of the BWB section on the Feast of Fools. That places it solidly in the 3rd Age.

 

In many villages and towns' date=' the most foolish person is given a title such as [b']Lord[/b]/Lady of Unreason/Misrule/Chaos or King/Queen of Fools. Not an honor sought, but for that one day everyone has to obey whatever orders, however foolish, are given by the chosen one.

 

Litterally, it can be said that, for the period of the day, the people of the village "let the Lord of Chaos rule." Since neither the title, nor observance of the tradition are universal to all areas, it isn't at all strange for one person (Taim) to know it and another (Pevara Sedai) not to.

[Beowolf]

My belief is that Taim is a minion, perhaps of Demandred, perhaps of someone else. I also believe that balefire is balefire. My theory on balefire is that, after the balefire hits you, you die before it ever hit you. This is confusing(it confuses me, too :) ), but it explains why the DO cannot reincarnate people who have been balefired. My idea is that the DO needs to "catch" their souls on the way to the afterlife(or wherever they go till they're reborn). The DO cannot do this, obviously, if they died before the present, he can only do it at the point of death.

[Guest cwestervelt]

RJ has confirmed that the Dark One cannot transimigrate a Balefire victim for just that reason.

[Beowolf]

Then why is anyone suggesting the idea of Be'lal being reincarnated as Taim?

[Cybertrolloc]

Then why is anyone suggesting the idea of Be'lal being reincarnated as Taim?

Because RJ left an out about recycling someone who was balefired in a Question of the Week. I doubt it applies, Moiraine had an angreal with her after all.

 

I find it more a commentary on how little we can say for sure about Taim. For someone who's been at the edge of a lot of things we have seen, very important to things in general and in a position to do a lot of damage...we know very little about him.

[Guest cwestervelt]

It will be interesting to see what RJ does with Taim in the last book. To my knowledge there hasn't been a single PoV Taim. We even have at least one from Shaidar Haran for crying out loud.

 

Edit: Getting off topic here

[Beowolf]

Balefire is balefire. As long as a person died before their apparent point of death, the strength of the balefire should not matter...

[Master of the Blades]

Be'lal = Bela

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

My theory on balefire is that, after the balefire hits you, you die before it ever hit you. This is confusing(it confuses me, too Smile ), but it explains why the DO cannot reincarnate people who have been balefired. My idea is that the DO needs to "catch" their souls on the way to the afterlife(or wherever they go till they're reborn). The DO cannot do this, obviously, if they died before the present, he can only do it at the point of death.

Balefire is balefire. As long as a person died before their apparent point of death, the strength of the balefire should not matter...

 

But RJ says that if a small amount of balefire is used, the soul can be saved. The strength of balefire definitely matters.

 

There is a definite amount of time during which a soul can be saved. Call this 't'. The strength of balefire determines how far back the soul is burned in time, call that amount of time 'x'. If x > t, the DO can't touch the soul. If x < t, there is still an opportunity for the DO to grab it, despite the balefire.

[Verbal32]

Be'lal = Bela

 

I like it, but too late. Everybody knows that Bela is the Creator.

[Beowolf]

But RJ says that if a small amount of balefire is used, the soul can be saved. The strength of balefire definitely matters.

 

There is a definite amount of time during which a soul can be saved. Call this 't'. The strength of balefire determines how far back the soul is burned in time, call that amount of time 'x'. If x > t, the DO can't touch the soul. If x < t, there is still an opportunity for the DO to grab it, despite the balefire.

 

Then what is t? I was assuming the passage to the "afterlife" was basically instant. If it isn't, do we know how long it takes, or what t is, in your inequalities? I'm thinking the balefire would have to be so weak, the point of death is equal to the point of apparent death. :?

[Verbal32]

Then what is t? I was assuming the passage to the "afterlife" was basically instant. If it isn't, do we know how long it takes, or what t is, in your inequalities? I'm thinking the balefire would have to be so weak, the point of death is equal to the point of apparent death.

 

I agree - I think the balefire would have to be as weak/thin as it is possible and still work to qualify. I wish there wasn't room for discussion on this though. I would rather have the answer be no, once balefired there is nothing.

[Beowolf]

I agree - I think the balefire would have to be as weak/thin as it is possible and still work to qualify. I wish there wasn't room for discussion on this though. I would rather have the answer be no, once balefired there is nothing.

 

Agreed, partially at least. My belief is that the balefire would require "0 strength"(where strength is measured in time burned back). for the DO to be able to grab the soul. The question is, would a weave like that still qualify for the name "balefire", even it it doesn't burn the thread back at all? I don't like the idea of a variable I don't know, such as the time it takes to get to the afterlife after you die. I would much rather it be plain and simple, like I had once believed it was...

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

...but RJ said it's possible

Balefire isn't as amazing as you think - yes, it is deadly in even tiny amounts, but the victim's soul is not actually burned from the pattern.

 

I saw that someone asked about this on RJ's blog. I hope he answers it.

[Beowolf]

...but RJ said it's possible

Balefire isn't as amazing as you think - yes, it is deadly in even tiny amounts, but the victim's soul is not actually burned from the pattern.

 

I saw that someone asked about this on RJ's blog. I hope he answers it.

 

I never said, or even suggested that balefire burned a person's soul from the pattern. I said a person's thread would be burned back for a period of time, relative to the strength of the balefire. It's that amazing, actually. :)

And also, my explanation can be made to fit RJ's, assuming balefire with "0 strength" is still considered balefire. Unlikely? Yes. Impossible? No. :)

[HotW Moiraine]

...but RJ said it's possible

Balefire isn't as amazing as you think - yes' date=' it is deadly in even tiny amounts, but the victim's soul is not actually burned from the pattern.

 

I saw that someone asked about this on RJ's blog. I hope he answers it.[/quote']

 

Balefire don't burn a person's soul, It burns their thread, and the more important the person the more chaos insues. Think of everything as a pattern. Which main threads and little pretty frilly ones. If you were to go and balefire Joe Nobody on the street, a little bit of the pattern would be effected, But If you were to balefire say, Rand, who is Ta'avern and effects almost everything, the entire pattern would be thrown into chaos, and would thus unravel.

 

And The DO cannot ressurect you if you've been balefired, doesn't mean your soul is gone.

[chuckievi]

Well HotW Moiraine, you are quite wrong on that. RJ has stated that you CAN be recycled by the DO if you are balefired.

[Beowolf]

^ Yeah, but... wasn't there a discussion on that question...like earlier in this topic?

 

I already told my personal theory:

Assuming passage to the afterlife is instant, you would need balefire of "0 strength", so that the "point of balefire" and "point of death" match up, which would be the only way the DO can ressurect you, since he needs to grab your soul at the point of death.

 

I've also admitted that my theory is unlikely, though possible.

[HotW Moiraine]

Well HotW Moiraine' date=' you are quite wrong on that. RJ has stated that you CAN be recycled by the DO if you are balefired.[/quote']

 

The description of balefire leaves us one important question: does "burning one's thread from the Pattern" mean that one's soul is destroyed forever, and one can never be reborn? John Novak finally got an answer for this from RJ at a post-TPOD book-signing [Northern Virginia - 21 November, 1998]:

 

Balefire: I'm right. (This was my question) What this means is, if someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the wheel as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back.

[Beowolf]

^ What I think Chuck means is that RJ said something or another about the DO reicarnating you in a case of super weak balefire. I stated my opinion on that twice already :)