The Black Ajah & Seanchan Morality

[Hagazussa]

The end of your sentence doesn't follow from the premise at the beginning. If we do not know how they lived, how can we be sure they did not conquer the depression? We do not know how they died either - any of them. Therefore we cannot draw conclusions about how they died.

 

We do not know if they conquer the depression true, but we do know that they do not live as long as others, we do know severed channelers get fatally depressed. Something make these men have shorter lifespans than normal people, and while it is not written in stone it is a fair guess to assume that what kills people with their condition normally would be what is killing these who manage to live a bit longer as well. If not what else could be killing them? If one group of people have one distinct thing in common, but nothing else and this group then live shorter lifespans than the regular population then it is rather fair to assume that what they have in common causes their early deaths, and if this thing generally causes death due to one cause or another but this group have been lucky and lived longer than what is common with said condition then it is fair to assume that the cause of their early deaths is the same as for those with the same affliction who have not lived as long. Off course with the number we are talking about here some would have died of natural causes most likely, or like you suggested died in battle or been murdered, but the fact still remain that this group live short lifespans which means that while you will have some deaths due to unrelated causes most of them die from the thing they have in common, the gentling and the way that is known to kill is due to depression.

 

We don't know what the chances are. We have too little information to draw reliable conclusions.

 

We do not know the exact numbers no, but we do know that the chance of a severed channeler surviving being rather slim as that is stated several times in the books.

 

Logain was not a normal male channeler. He was a false Dragon. Therefore, there is a risk to him from people who disapprove of that particular career choice, and a risk to others from him deciding that maybe Gentling doesn't ave to be the end of this "I am the Dragon" lark after all. And therefore, do we know that his treatment was not atypical? They might treat other male channelers differently, and therefore they might end up in a different state.

 

While it is true that Logain might have been kept under more watch he is not treated badly per say, at least not from what we see in the scenes he is in, his Accepted guards wanting him to go into the sunlight as it would do him good for example. And while we do not know if other gentled male channelers would end up exactly like him we do know that when he Siuan and the rest arrive at the rebel Aes Sedai with him being in a rather sorry state none seam surprised and just say that it is the gentling so obviously they had seen it before. Also it is stated again and again that channelers who are severed lose the will to live and either kill themselves or just die shortly after anyway so it do not seam like Logain is a particularly bad case.

 

The big problem here is we are having to speculate with very little by way of concrete information. For example, women who are burnt out are sent away from the Tower. What are their survival rates like? The AS don't tend to keep tabs on them - the very subject makes them uncomfortable. Getting rid of them is as much for the peace of mind of the AS as it is the benefit of the women in question.

 

We do not know their exact survival rates but it is stated that a few manage to survive by finding something they can fill the hole in their mind with, so while statistics are not given it is strongly indicated that burned out women have a low survival rate but that it is not unknown for some to make it. Also the fact that the Aes Sedai are made so uncomfortable around severed channelers is also a bit telling, in setting most of them seam far more afraid of that than death which do also indicate that it is a rather bad fate. Yes we do have to speculate some, but there is also a fair amount of information available to make a rather educated guess in my option.

 

So has Setalle survived an unusually long time? Or about average?

 

That we do not know, to me it seams more like some make it and they can live rather long and those who do not make it die rather quickly, but that yes is peculation.

 

For the men who are Gentled - what is life expectancy?

 

From one to three years if I do not remember it wrong.

 

What is life expectancy for men brought in by Cadsuane?

 

That we do not know, we know one lived or ten years and that all live longer than what is average for a gentled male channeler but that all of them live short lives.

 

What is normal human life expectancy?

 

Rand at one point think about living to 80 and there are those who are normal people who have reached 90 so it seams like WoT have perhaps a average lifespan of 70 or so.

 

We don't even know much about the causes of the depression - it is solely due to the loss of the Power (and thus is psychological in nature), or is it a physical change? If the former, then someone who had not been channeling long, if at all (for example, if Rand had been Gentled midway through EotW) would be less bothered by it, presumably, while if it is a physical side effect then someone channeling once and then being Gentled is just as prone to it.

 

This is true. It do seam that a part of it is loss due to using the One Power being extremely pleasurable and being denied this pleasure forever have detrimental effects on a channeler. It is made very clear in the books that the One Power is addictive and that a channeler do need to channel and can not stop, therefore even if they knew it would result in them going mad and then getting sick and dying the male channelers who hid in Ogier Steddings eventually left because they just could not stay away from the Power indefinably. I assume that to a person who can not stop using magick to save their lives loosing that magick forever will suck very, very hard and that might cause depression. But there might also be something else there, something vital that is cut off that then causes the depression and it is possible that if this is true then the depression could be cured but that vital something missing staying and eventually killing the individual. If I where to guess it would be a combination of the two.

[elric]

i agrea with Mr Ares about not knowing the exact affect of gentling/ stiling.

 

from the KNOWN fully detrailed example we have

 

Stella Anan recoverd and build a good life.

Tom nephew was unlowfully gentled and left without care/treatment in CONTRAST to WT low/tradition. so he died short after.

 

i dont recall anyother example about the life of ppl after gentling/stiling.

 

another point i like to make in this issue is personality / overall contact/condition.

 

say Grady and Narishime will be gentled.

will they react the same ???

[Hagazussa]

I do not think two individuals will react exactly the same, both mental fortitude, how well a person is treated and if the person tending to them know what to do probably play a part, however what we do know is what is stated that very few survive and most die from just giving up wanting to live, which is stated quite a few time and that sort of say that it is not like they are upset for a while and then generally get better, though some who are lucky and get the right treatment can live longer.

[elric]

u missed the point behind my example Hag

 

Grady -> old/married /father / good marriege life

Narishima -> yound dont have anything but the power in his life.

 

rem only wilder male channeler been gentled (since there been no one to teach those who have the ability to learn) , and due to that only young ppl with not yet fully developed mental fortidute (u cant compare a yound man out of his teens to a 30/40 year old family man)

so gentling shouldf not be the end of the world.

like forcing stilled AS to marry (suian mentioned something of this line) i believe same tact could work /save gentled Male Channelers

[Hagazussa]

Grady -> old/married /father / good marriege life

Narishima -> yound dont have anything but the power in his life.

 

I definitely think Grady would do better than Narishima and Grady might have a chance of some good years after gentling which I doubt Narishima would have. Life situation definitely would play into it I think.

 

rem only wilder male channeler been gentled (since there been no one to teach those who have the ability to learn) , and due to that only young ppl with not yet fully developed mental fortidute (u cant compare a yound man out of his teens to a 30/40 year old family man)

so gentling shouldf not be the end of the world.

 

Well the books say repeatedly that yes it is the end of the world for an individual unless they can find something to fill the hole in their minds with.That can be a family, a cause or something else that give them the will to live on. So yes a family man might have a much greater chance to stay alive and might choose gentling over death for that reason, but that do not make it right to force it on anyone.

 

like forcing stilled AS to marry (suian mentioned something of this line) i believe same tact could work /save gentled Male Channelers

 

I do not think a forced marriage would work, I think they would actually have to love their wife and new family but yes getting a family is said to save some severed channelers and should work on men as well. Now I am not saying that gentling should not be offered to those who is willing to take that over death, but it should be an option and not the norm as I do think the kinder option for most is to just kill them.

[Knivy]

As of now, the depression is a non-factor. Stilling has been Healed, so there will always be the hope that they can be Healed. (stilled by law would probably lead to execution, and why would you want them to have a good life anyway?)

[elric]

the books never said its the end of the worlfd to be stilled,

character in the books said it

and altough AS BELIEVE they know all -> they DONT (same characters also said it can be healed :)) ).

 

end viewing the stilled chars the book provide -> 1 fully recoverd , 1 die of depression after illeagal stilling , 2 seem to be recovering (but VERY short time beeing stilled) , 1 look very depressed (but again a short time after beeing stilled)

and even the fully recover claim it take time to recover and that she was a MESS in the short period after the stilling.

 

so judgeing my the evidance the book provide (not believe/theories) -> stilling is a VERY traumatic experience - followd by deep depression that CAN be overcome

[Hagazussa]

Well we have one who die, though he is left alone and is chased down by a village mob so he might not count.

We have one who survive and go on to living a good life after burning herself out.

We have two who are stilled who do manage to function though when point of view chapters are given from them they do so just to be able to complete their goals and they do expect to die if they did not have those goals to work towards and they do not remain stilled for very long.

We have one man who first is seen rather depressed and looking to die, then he perks up when given a goal of revenge, when that goal seam to slip out of reach he eventually get to the point where he will only walk if someone push him in a given direction and everyone assumes he will drop dead any moment, he is then healed.

And we have one who lived ten years of which we know nothing about save that he lived for those ten years.

 

However all of the character above had special circumstances about them which made their survival possible, and yes it is said again and again from characters in the series who have seen gentling many times that yes it is the end of the world, some can survive but it is not likely. If you pick up a PDF of the books and search for stilling, gentling or severing you will get descriptions saying it is a fate worse than death who know how many times, and while these characters for the most part have not experienced it themselves they have been around characters who have.

 

Severing is not just traumatic and then the ex channeler is depressed for a while and then it pass. It is extremely painful and traumatic, they get deep depression that yes can be overcome but from the description of the characters in the setting that is not the norm. If the normal thing had been for severed channelers to overcome their depression it would have been described as something terrible that one do get over and not as it is a fate worse than death that some with a strong dedication can survive but where most die, for that is actually said again and again most die.

 

Now I am not saying that severing can not be survived, it can, both short term and long term there are examples on that but everyone in the books who know anything about it say it is a death sentence. It is a bit like this, there are people who have survived falling out of airplanes, hitting the ground and walking away from it, however the norm is that if you fall out of a plane thousands of feet in the air your are dead. Severing can be survived I agree with you there and I do not think our views are that far apart. I just think that there is enough evidence to say that gentling is such a horrible thing to do to someone that it should not be done unless a male channeler chooses that over death knowing full well what he is choosing.

[Suttree]

We have one who survive and go on to living a good life after burning herself out.

 

Not sure if it has been mentioned but I wonder if it is easier to survive being burned out? After all when you are stilled you can still sense the source but never again reach it. If you are burned out that connection is essentially gone. This is why I've always assumed the a'dam didn't work for Setalle and it could play a crucial role in recovery.

[MasterAblar]

We have one who survive and go on to living a good life after burning herself out.

 

Not sure if it has been mentioned but I wonder if it is easier to survive being burned out? After all when you are stilled you can still sense the source but never again reach it. If you are burned out that connection is essentially gone. This is why I've always assumed the a'dam didn't work for Setalle and it could play a crucial role in recovery.

 

The difference between watching others eating your favorite pie, and watching others eating your favorite pie while you're being taunted by having it hang just inches from your mouth.

[Knivy]

We have one who survive and go on to living a good life after burning herself out.

 

Not sure if it has been mentioned but I wonder if it is easier to survive being burned out? After all when you are stilled you can still sense the source but never again reach it. If you are burned out that connection is essentially gone. This is why I've always assumed the a'dam didn't work for Setalle and it could play a crucial role in recovery.

This is what Ive thought. Being stilled, you can still sense the source, just never touch it. When youre burned out, then you dont sense it, so eventually the pain dulls.

[Hagazussa]

Not sure if it has been mentioned but I wonder if it is easier to survive being burned out? After all when you are stilled you can still sense the source but never again reach it. If you are burned out that connection is essentially gone. This is why I've always assumed the a'dam didn't work for Setalle and it could play a crucial role in recovery.

 

I actually think it would be easier to survive being burned out. At least part of the problem with a severed channeler is that they long to touch the source since it is so pleasurable everything else pales, to have lost that but then have it there taunting you at the back of your mind always there but out of reach must be torture, to just have it be gone might make it easier to just have a clean break and manage to move past it.

[Amandera]

I'm not sure there is a difference between burning out and stilling other than one is by accident or self-inflicted. Where did you read that burned out channelers can't feel the Source at all?

[Suttree]

I'm not sure there is a difference between burning out and stilling other than one is by accident or self-inflicted. Where did you read that burned out channelers can't feel the Source at all?

 

Burned out

TGH

And she came out [of the ter’angreal] with her abilities burned to nothing, unable to channel, unable even to sense the True Source.”

 

Stilled

TSR

Amico had been stilled during her capture. Still able to sense the True Source, she would never again touch it, never again channel. The desire to, the need to, would remain, as sharp as the need to breathe, and her loss would be there for as long as she lived, saidar forever out of reach.

[Amandera]

Okay, thank you.

 

I actually think it would be easier to survive being burned out. At least part of the problem with a severed channeler is that they long to touch the source since it is so pleasurable everything else pales, to have lost that but then have it there taunting you at the back of your mind always there but out of reach must be torture, to just have it be gone might make it easier to just have a clean break and manage to move past it.

I agree with this, then.

[Suttree]

The trade off though is I believe being burned out can not be healed. The way Nyn described healing stilling was like connecting those pieces that had been cut. If that connection has been destroyed totally, which seems likely since there is no way to sense the source or feel things through the a'dam I don't think there is anything left to heal. Much like a missing limb.

[Amandera]

Probably. I doubt Nynaeve would agree with that though.

[Hagazussa]

The trade off though is I believe being burned out can not be healed. The way Nyn described it was like connecting those pieces that had been cut. If that connection has been destroyed totally, which seems likely since there is no way to sense the source or feel things through the a'dam I don't think there is anything left to heal. Much like a missing limb.

 

I think the difference would between cutting your leg off, but it is still intact so a good doctor can reattach it, and your leg being chopped off and it then being put in an incinerator and burned to ashes, there is no more leg to attach.

 

Probably. I doubt Nynaeve would agree with that though.

 

Nyn might find a way to heal someone who had been burned out but then she would probably have to be able to make a whole new connection, to continue the leg analogy growing a new leg or making a functional prosthesis, she can probably not just reattach the connection.

 

And she came out [of the ter’angreal] with her abilities burned to nothing, unable to channel, unable even to sense the True Source

 

A bit off topic but do we know which ter'angreal she was using?

[elric]

the ppl who claim Stilling is a fate worse then death are the SAME PPL who claim it cant be heald :)

 

in order to not deteriorate into repeating ourself let summerise what we agrea and disagrea on:

 

agrea:

stilling is a very traumatic experience that put u in a deep depression

 

disagrea :

the % of recovering of the depression and moving on.

 

i dont say its not rare and i dont say its not common, i say we DONT know and , it clearly stated that the AS found stilling/gentling a very disturbing thing and tend to ignore /put the victim out of sight and out of mind.

it was clearly said that the entire subjerct made them very uncomfortable.

which i suspect wasnt very helpfull for the gentling victim :

u found out u can channel (a very traumatic event by itself in randland) -> kidnapped and taken away from your home/family/support system -> being gentle -> sorounded by ppl who found your presence a very uncomfortale/disturbing thing.

i wonder what the recovery % been if the last part was sorounded by a caring and loving ppl who support and comfort u ?.

 

i fully agrea that the gentling process could been improved ALOT.

but i fully disagrea on kill instead on gentle. (unless ofc it someone like taim who need to be put down like the rabid dog that he was/is/will ever be)

[Suttree]

Edit: was sidetracked by the burned out/stilling portion of the discussion.

[Hagazussa]

the ppl who claim Stilling is a fate worse then death are the SAME PPL who claim it cant be heald :)

 

That a cure is eventually found do not make the thing itself less terrible before said cure is discovered or for those said cure is not applied to. For a very long time severing was final and it's victims lived and died with that, and yes I think that is a fate worse than death the way it is described in the books.

 

in order to not deteriorate into repeating ourself let summerise what we agrea and disagrea on:

 

agrea:

stilling is a very traumatic experience that put u in a deep depression

 

disagrea :

the % of recovering of the depression and moving on.

 

Yes that is about right plus that I do not think they ever recover from the depression, the ones who survive learn to handle it and live with it but the sense of loss is always there, which is also mentioned in the books.

 

i dont say its not rare and i dont say its not common, i say we DONT know and , it clearly stated that the AS found stilling/gentling a very disturbing thing and tend to ignore /put the victim out of sight and out of mind.

it was clearly said that the entire subjerct made them very uncomfortable.

which i suspect wasnt very helpfull for the gentling victim :

 

I agree that the way other channelers look at those who have been severed is probably not helpful, but just how disturbed they are by the subject should say quite a bit about just how horrible it is. The word alone will make Aes Sedai shudder. The only thing in the above quote I disagree with is that I think we do know, it is said again and again that severing victims die rather soon, so we do know that most of them die even if a few manages to survive.

 

u found out u can channel (a very traumatic event by itself in randland) -> kidnapped and taken away from your home/family/support system -> being gentle -> sorounded by ppl who found your presence a very uncomfortale/disturbing thing.

i wonder what the recovery % been if the last part was sorounded by a caring and loving ppl who support and comfort u ?.

 

The basic problem with gentling, the sense of loss will not be affected no matter how you treat them. I do however agree that with a loving support network the chances of survival would go up. I would in fact go so far as to say if the entire process where done in a more kind way it would make the chances of survival for the gentled man allot better. Usually they are kidnapped, taken from all they know, taken to Tar Valon where they have to go through a trial before they are chained up in the Traitors Court and the Amyrlin read up a speech which pronounce you the most loathsome person on the planet and then something painful beyond imagination is done to you and you are either sent away or left in some room to deal with the depression and the loss yourself possibly with someone sent to watch and make sure you do not kill yourself to end your suffering, off course that sort of treatment would make a terrible situation even worse. Just take the gentling alone, okey so it is extremely painful and traumatic and nothing can be done to change that, but if it where you would you rather have something extremely painful and traumatic done to you while chained up in a court with allot of jeering people watching, or would it seam a little less bad if it was done in a room with some privacy with someone to give comfort and support present while it was happening? And also afterwards off course if the gentled man had a support network to offer love and comfort and to try to get him off his butt and out to actually do something that would increase his chances. I do think that no matter how you do severing it is a horrible thing, but the treatment male channelers get definitely make it worse than it have to be and that might make it harder for these men to survive yes.

 

i fully agrea that the gentling process could been improved ALOT.

but i fully disagrea on kill instead on gentle. (unless ofc it someone like taim who need to be put down like the rabid dog that he was/is/will ever be)

 

Here I disagree with you, I respect your opinion but I do not agree. Look at Logain at Tower or during the last leg of the journey to the rebel Tower and tell me it is better to be left like that than to be dead. Also tell me that it is better to live with always feeling that magick you so desire to touch, the magick that have become the greatest thing in your life, something so amazing that every other experience pales to it, but never being able to touch it so you live in an eternal state of loss. I do not think that is better than death, even if it is possible to survive.

[Suttree]

Also tell me that it is better to live with always feeling that magick you so desire to touch, the magick that have become the greatest thing in your life, something so amazing that every other experience pales to it, but never being able to touch it so you live in an eternal state of loss. I do not think that is better than death, even if it is possible to survive.

 

As long as their is hope. Find a greater purpose much like Siuan.

 

"Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day."

[elric]

where life there hope :) (hope u dont mind that i summerise your post into a clish'e Sult :) )

 

Hag i think we reach the troll phase of our argument :) , we fully understand each other position (atleast i think i do yours and hope u do mine :) ), i fear we now will only repeat the same argument so i stepping out of this speicific aspect of the thread in agreaing to disagrea attidute

 

btw this issue aside:

 

i think we all in agreament that sencheen culture== EVIL incranate ? :)

[Hagazussa]

Hag i think we reach the troll phase of our argument :) , we fully understand each other position (atleast i think i do yours and hope u do mine :) ), i fear we now will only repeat the same argument so i stepping out of this speicific aspect of the thread in agreaing to disagrea attidute

 

Very well we will agree to disagree on what we have not agreed on yet. Thank you for the debate, it was interesting, morbid, but interesting.

 

i think we all in agreament that sencheen culture== EVIL incranate ? :)

 

I have to be the voice of dissent here but no I do not think they are evil incarnate, I think they are wrong from my moral views but I think that for something to be "evil" if such a word have any meaning really beyond personal definitions, there have to be some ill will behind it and there is not. The Seanchan honestly believe they do the best for their society, and the keeping of slave and the system of damane is a part of that, and in many ways they are doing something right, even the poorest pheasants get fed for example, crime seam to be rare. Now I think that Seanchan is wrong on very many aspects, the enslavement of women who can channel being one of them, however I think they are misguided more than evil. Think of it this way if you do something that might be considered evil because you honesty think you are doing the right thing then you are not evil, the rest of your actions might be indistinguishable from evil but you would not be evil.

[elric]

the reason i claim Sancheen culture is evil is not only becouse of how they treat Channeler but becouse of how they treat the entire populace:

let c what we know about Sanchean:

 

*Damana -> treated as pet not human , its not just slavery but total dehumanisation from early age.

 

*Slavery -> Dacovaql is a slavery system, a culture that impose slavery as basic punishment (as far as we seen its very basic punishment given to even minor offence) is evil in my book, and again that slavery include dehumanisation of the target.

 

*The Blood -> the way the blood act and expect other to treat them is a main reason to why i view this as evil culture , if a blood want something he entitle to take it from the rightfull owner !, u have to debase yourself when ever a blood walk by u !, looking directly at Blood without permission a capital offence !, talking to blood without permission capital offence !....

took Tuon she aint evil by herself but look at her demenore -> she wanted Mat so she tried to BUY him (and mat was a FREE person who comitted NO CRIME beside catching Tuon eye) / she sure know peasent in her empire ever dared to look at her face (and would probably kill enslave any who would) / she percieve the respectfull comrady that Mat have with his officer as grave insult toward Mat (the map scene)...

 

* truth seeker -> an entire class of secret polioce/turturer with free hand to do what they like without that pesky issue of evidance !, rem the scene when Rad is in senchean , rem the snachean captain (blackout on her name :)) ) react to the blond truth-seeker...

 

i dont claim the senchean are evil ,we seen several example of very decent senchean, but a society who brainwash is populace into slavish obidience and debasement before it rulling caste (rem the elephent trainer reaction toward eilean the 1st time) is evil by my standart