Demandred: Have we been searching in the wrong haystack?

[fionwe1987]

Well, unless some armies "pop up out of nowhere" it's going to be a cakewalk for the forces of Light - or a terribly written conflict that should have been a cakewalk - so I'd actually hope there are some armies a poppin' ...

Not as of the prologue. We don't know how many Aiel male and female channelers there are, all turned or dedicated to the Shadow from an early age. Those numbers seriously negate the only advantage the Light had up till now: superior channeler numbers. And I hope Egwene and Rand are being extraordinarily cautious about their angreal caches. That's another advantage they cannot afford to lose, though who knows what is in Moridin's cache?

[khutch8]

My thoughts on Demandred (Prologue Spoilers Ahead) (PS I haven't reread the books since ToM came out, so, if there is anything I say that is impossible due to something in the books, do let me know).

 

 

 

 

We know Demandred likes to use proxies.

We know Demandred and Taim both issued orders to kill Rand roughly the same time.

Both don't like to smile. I'm not 100% sure, but, I think they have similar features too.

Robert Jordan seemed amused at times that people thought Taim was Demandred - could this amusement be because he is/isn't at the same time?

In the AMoL prologue, Demandred and Taim seem to know each other, at least by sight.

Both used the phrase "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule"

 

It seems a little strange/pointless for Taim to be raised to "Forsaken level" in the prologue. He is going to end up fighting someone, and likely dying in AMoL - and I highly doubt him randomly exclaiming in the middle of a fight "hahahaaha I'm one of the Chosen" - it seems strange and kinda pointless for any of the light siders to find out this information (ie. He would still wind up in a battle with someone (likely Rand or Logain), whether he was one of the Forsaken or just a Darkfriend)...UNLESS...Taim is one of Demandred's proxies (note ONE OF - I believe he has multiple, as we are told "Demandred always liked to use PROXIES (plural)), and him dying might give Demandred the element of surprise (kinda like Graendal would have had if she hadn't screwed up royally with Perrin (I guess she still kinda does...but that's not the point), if people think he is dead (mistaking Taim for Demandred). The only problem with this theory is that we as readers would know, as RJ has told us time and time again that Demandred is not Taim - so, it wouldn't be surprising to us if Demandred reappeared after being presumed "dead" (but neither would have Graendal had she done something useful), but a big surprise to the characters.

 

The other question that goes with this theory is - if the theory is true - does Moridin know?

a) perhaps Moridin is unaware that Taim is one of Demandred's proxies, and thinks he is just some powerful channeler who is dark and has served well. Demandred could be using this to gain an element of surprise on Rand AND Moridin - possibly to wipe them both out and become Na'eblis, since they wouldn't be expecting it.

b) Maybe Moridin knows, and it is some plot between him and Demandred to trick Rand.

[Neophyte]

Well, unless some armies "pop up out of nowhere" it's going to be a cakewalk for the forces of Light - or a terribly written conflict that should have been a cakewalk - so I'd actually hope there are some armies a poppin' ...

Not as of the prologue. We don't know how many Aiel male and female channelers there are, all turned or dedicated to the Shadow from an early age. Those numbers seriously negate the only advantage the Light had up till now: superior channeler numbers. And I hope Egwene and Rand are being extraordinarily cautious about their angreal caches. That's another advantage they cannot afford to lose, though who knows what is in Moridin's cache?

 

The Black Tower seems to be split roughly down the middle ... though the ones Rand has out on assignment seem to be getting the most battle experience, they're also taking the most casualties too.

 

But If the Samma N'Sei alone can match the White Tower, Windfinders, and Wise Ones for numbers, I'll be really pissed off. No way what was described in the Prologue has the logistical structure to maintain those kinds of numbers.

 

Now, if Demandred brings in some Ayyad, or some damane/sul'dam imported from the Seanchan continent ... heck, even if he just throws in some whackos from the Land of Madmen - fine. But the Samma N'Sei by themselves? Blood and ashes, I hope not.

[Durinax]

Well, unless some armies "pop up out of nowhere" it's going to be a cakewalk for the forces of Light - or a terribly written conflict that should have been a cakewalk - so I'd actually hope there are some armies a poppin' ...

Not as of the prologue. We don't know how many Aiel male and female channelers there are, all turned or dedicated to the Shadow from an early age. Those numbers seriously negate the only advantage the Light had up till now: superior channeler numbers. And I hope Egwene and Rand are being extraordinarily cautious about their angreal caches. That's another advantage they cannot afford to lose, though who knows what is in Moridin's cache?

 

The Black Tower seems to be split roughly down the middle ... though the ones Rand has out on assignment seem to be getting the most battle experience, they're also taking the most casualties too.

 

But If the Samma N'Sei alone can match the White Tower, Windfinders, and Wise Ones for numbers, I'll be really pissed off. No way what was described in the Prologue has the logistical structure to maintain those kinds of numbers.

 

Now, if Demandred brings in some Ayyad, or some damane/sul'dam imported from the Seanchan continent ... heck, even if he just throws in some whackos from the Land of Madmen - fine. But the Samma N'Sei by themselves? Blood and ashes, I hope not.

well it seems evident that they take any aiel they can capture and try the turning process or at least test them as sparkers, so it could be feasable to get numbers from that look.

 

I am just wondering when/if Rand's father (biological) will appear, I don't buy into the story of some random aiel seeing Luc kill him, and then the aiel escaped

[Orderofolde]

I wish I had the exact quote, but it took like 300 years for the Seanchan to plan, train, and outfit their troops to return to Randland.

 

The idea of a single campaign like the Return taking 300, or 100, or even 50 years of sustained effort to plan, train for, and execute is a logistical absurdity, no matter who said/wrote it.

 

If Demandred is working in Shara (and we certainly don't know whether he is or not) then unless he's an idiot he would have taken over the existing instruments of power (the Ayyad) and so could have turned the resources of Shara in most any direction he wished well within the two years or so that we've had in the books. The Ayyad has always struck me as an organization ripe for Darkfriends anyway. The Sharans are not Shadowspawn - gateways will work perfectly fine for them, so transport is not an issue either.

That would smack far too much of Tolkien and gathering in the armies of those that supported Sauron. I suppose there are Oliphants in Shara? Anyways I thought that with Shara pretty much out aside from some mentions and Graendal having their rulers as her pets, that was out, as was Land of the Madmen at this point as we've had only Noal talking about Shara and that man in the Inn talking about silk worms. Land of Madmen isn't even mentioned beyond the map reference iirc.

[MasterAblar]

The Black Tower seems to be split roughly down the middle ... though the ones Rand has out on assignment seem to be getting the most battle experience, they're also taking the most casualties too.

 

Unless they've turned a massive number of Asha'man, there should far more (like 4 times more) Asha'man on the Light side than the Shadow, considering the numbers we've been given in tPoD and KoD. The real problem is convincing the Asha'man that Taim is a darkfriend, which most of those at the BT are not aware of.

[Neophyte]

The Black Tower seems to be split roughly down the middle ... though the ones Rand has out on assignment seem to be getting the most battle experience, they're also taking the most casualties too.

 

Unless they've turned a massive number of Asha'man, there should far more (like 4 times more) Asha'man on the Light side than the Shadow, considering the numbers we've been given in tPoD and KoD. The real problem is convincing the Asha'man that Taim is a darkfriend, which most of those at the BT are not aware of.

 

Sorry, I wasn't clear. You're entirely correct about the relative numbers (though I not sure it's actually 4 to 1 ... 2.5 or 3 to 1 is more likely in my mind), but the Asha'man with Taim are supposed to be getting special training, so I'm assuming that man-for-man they're way more dangerous. So, as far as total group effectiveness, they should be about a wash, despite Taim's raw numbers being smaller.

 

If a significant portion of the Black Tower emerges after the conflict with Taim as loyal to Rand (or at least, Logain) and effective for the Last Battle, then the Light gains a serious advantage.

[MasterAblar]

The Black Tower seems to be split roughly down the middle ... though the ones Rand has out on assignment seem to be getting the most battle experience, they're also taking the most casualties too.

 

Unless they've turned a massive number of Asha'man, there should far more (like 4 times more) Asha'man on the Light side than the Shadow, considering the numbers we've been given in tPoD and KoD. The real problem is convincing the Asha'man that Taim is a darkfriend, which most of those at the BT are not aware of.

 

Sorry, I wasn't clear. You're entirely correct about the relative numbers (though I not sure it's actually 4 to 1 ... 2.5 or 3 to 1 is more likely in my mind), but the Asha'man with Taim are supposed to be getting special training, so I'm assuming that man-for-man they're way more dangerous. So, as far as total group effectiveness, they should be about a wash, despite Taim's raw numbers being smaller.

 

If a significant portion of the Black Tower emerges after the conflict with Taim as loyal to Rand (or at least, Logain) and effective for the Last Battle, then the Light gains a serious advantage.

 

There were around 100 Asha'man with Taim at the end of KoD, which fits since Logain says there are 91 earlier in the book. There were already 448 Asha'man in tPoD, with them growing at a rate of 3 to 4 per day. All things considered there should be around 1000 Asha'man by the beginning of aMoL. That is if the BT kept growing at the same rate.

 

I agree that man for man, the darkfriends with Taim are more dangerous. Hopefully Rand will take the time to teach the Asha'man some more advanced weaves, though I wouldn't count on it too much.