Question about the seals

[BFG]

sorry double post

[BFG]

In ToM Min felt a 'cold shiver' at finding the answer

What exactly are you referring to?

 

Interested to hear about this...

 

I guess I should stop being lazy

ToM For What has been Wrought, Chap 13 (pg 196 orbit hardback)

"Callandor", he said. "It plays a part in this. You have to find out how. I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me".

"I will Rand." A cold shiver ran through her. "I promise"

 

(hence worse case scenarion being what happened last time)

 

EDIT - to add:

 

I'm not 100% sure of the length of time that they've been there - but if it's long enough for Rand to set AM to working on the weapons then it's long enough for the Borderland AS to find the new Amyrlin imo

Few hours.

Late-afternoon the same day as AMoL Chapter 1, she says: "Gawyn, he knows he shouldn't break those seals. A part of him does, at least. Perhaps that's why he told me—so I could gather resistance, so I could talk him out of it." Not exactly clear when Rand came with the Borderlanders, but it's that evening. That is how fast Egwene's thoughts changes from what they had been for the last month.

 

Thanks, so it's tight, but still possible - it's not hugely satisfying, but I guess I prefer reasoning how it could happen in universe then assuming it's a mistake. Allows me to debate what's written instead of what readers think should have been written.

[Wool-headed lummox]

I'll take them together. In ToM Min is clearly worried, (cold shiver quote), by aMoL she's sleeping peacefully -

 

 

below from online dictionary:

 

slumber [ˈslʌmbə]

vb

1. (intr) to sleep, esp peacefully

2. (intr) to be quiescent or dormant

3. (tr; foll by away) to spend (time) sleeping

 

First off, your own definition shows that to slumber simply means to sleep. Possibly, peacefully. That's what the "esp." part stands for, it means the word can be used without the peaceful part. Second of all, you're reading too much into these things. Min feeling a cold shiver at the thought of discovering Callandor's secret features does not mean she would spend every single night for a whole month thrashing about in her sleep until she figured it out. It's too much of a stretch, it even sounds completely implausible. She simply felt a cold shiver, a momentary sensation. It's not important. Besides, cold shivers don't exactly suggest worry or sleeplessness to me. And it's not like she wouldn't be worried anyway the night before Rand goes to fight the DO at Shayol Ghul, plan or no plan. So the slumber is really not indicative of anything.

 

I'm not trying to argue that Eg is acting irrationally (I actually argued that Egs apparant change of viewpoint can be explained) - when I read your previous posts it sounded to me like you were commenting as a reader to his plan or lack there-of and so I was responding to say that as a reader there are indications that say he has a plan.

I agree that you have one interpretation, I think based on the other considerations (esp Cads) that mine is a valid interpretation to. Plus at this stage we have no reason to believe that Rand is going to act irrationaly, breaking the seals with no plan is irrational, therefore rationally he has a plan and BS is maintaining tension by not referring to it, not necessarily a device that I like, but one he's already used with Eg.

We'll just have to wait and see, I guess. I don't see where Rand could have gotten the info needed for a coherent idea of what to do, considering that Lews Therin didn't know. Could Min have found something vital about Callandor? Her last PoV is in ToM chapter 51, where Rand gets slapped around by kings and queens, and she makes no indication of any breakthrough. In fact, she is still clueless about Callandor's other flaw, fears it, and has nothing to add on the viewing of Callandor gripped by a black hand.

[BFG]

I'll take them together. In ToM Min is clearly worried, (cold shiver quote), by aMoL she's sleeping peacefully -

 

 

below from online dictionary:

 

slumber [ˈslʌmbə]

vb

1. (intr) to sleep, esp peacefully

2. (intr) to be quiescent or dormant

3. (tr; foll by away) to spend (time) sleeping

 

First off, your own definition shows that to slumber simply means to sleep. Possibly, peacefully. That's what the "esp." part stands for, it means the word can be used without the peaceful part. Second of all, you're reading too much into these things. Min feeling a cold shiver at the thought of discovering Callandor's secret features does not mean she would spend every single night for a whole month thrashing about in her sleep until she figured it out. It's too much of a stretch, it even sounds completely implausible. She simply felt a cold shiver, a momentary sensation. It's not important. Besides, cold shivers don't exactly suggest worry or sleeplessness to me. And it's not like she wouldn't be worried anyway the night before Rand goes to fight the DO at Shayol Ghul, plan or no plan. So the slumber is really not indicative of anything.

 

I'm not trying to argue that Eg is acting irrationally (I actually argued that Egs apparant change of viewpoint can be explained) - when I read your previous posts it sounded to me like you were commenting as a reader to his plan or lack there-of and so I was responding to say that as a reader there are indications that say he has a plan.

I agree that you have one interpretation, I think based on the other considerations (esp Cads) that mine is a valid interpretation to. Plus at this stage we have no reason to believe that Rand is going to act irrationaly, breaking the seals with no plan is irrational, therefore rationally he has a plan and BS is maintaining tension by not referring to it, not necessarily a device that I like, but one he's already used with Eg.

We'll just have to wait and see, I guess. I don't see where Rand could have gotten the info needed for a coherent idea of what to do, considering that Lews Therin didn't know. Could Min have found something vital about Callandor? Her last PoV is in ToM chapter 51, where Rand gets slapped around by kings and queens, and she makes no indication of any breakthrough. In fact, she is still clueless about Callandor's other flaw, fears it, and has nothing to add on the viewing of Callandor gripped by a black hand.

 

esp in a dictionary sense stands for especially - and I agree on its own it doesn't hold up, but taken in conjecture with other things can be used to form an opinion.

 

 

Acronym Definition ESP Especially

 

(there are over 170 abbreviations for ESP, but I thought better of posting them. Especially is number 1 :) )

 

There is an argument of how much thought BS would have given into choosing this word, and there's no way of knowing that.

 

She makes no indication of a break through true, but she doesn't directly say that she doesn't either. At this stage I'm assuming that it's a literary writing call that BS has made, I have little evidence for it - absence of proof isn't proof of absence (or something), but I think it unlikely, given lots of small indications, that there is no plan.

 

The point of the cold shivers wasn't to say that she lies awake dreading the inevitable until she found an answer (or someone found one), it was to show that she's aware of the responsibility she has and that despite that she's sleeping peacefully the night before it counts. Based on how I was when I went into an exam without revision, with something that important I'd either be passed out/having a heart attack/ or just generally having some unhelpful reaction that just gets in the way.

 

Surely this board is full of people reading into the nuances? :P

 

Agree to disagree? :)

[athrian]

Maybe I'm just picking too much at it, it just seems like a plot hole that they can't see the basic logic. Even without the 2nd age memories or knowledge, they know there was a hole in the prison made, for 100 years the dark one wasnt running around free, then it was sealed. Logically, if he wasnt free before, it shouldbt free him now. Egwene isnt even talking like she is speculating, it's "breaking the seals WILL free the DO", based on no logic or evidence.

[thisguy]

I'm pretty sure Rand says in ToM that he would escape right away but would be able to touch the world more strongly. Think about it, how long was the hole open the first time? A 100 years?

[XXX]

I'm not 100% sure of the length of time that they've been there - but if it's long enough for Rand to set AM to working on the weapons then it's long enough for the Borderland AS to find the new Amyrlin imo

Few hours.

Late-afternoon the same day as AMoL Chapter 1, she says: "Gawyn, he knows he shouldn't break those seals. A part of him does, at least. Perhaps that's why he told me—so I could gather resistance, so I could talk him out of it." Not exactly clear when Rand came with the Borderlanders, but it's that evening. That is how fast Egwene's thoughts changes from what they had been for the last month.

 

I bet anything that Brandon made up the whole part about Egwene wanting the seals never broken in ToM. RJ probably had only a note about some confrontation about the seals between Rand and Egwene. That whole chapter "The Amrylin's Anger" is weird. Then once he or someone else involved in the WoT world realized that there is no way to write an argument between Rand and Egwene in FOM with Egwene never wanting the seals to be broken without the No 2 character in the books looking like a total fool, they changed the narrative quickly in AMOL.

[BFG]

I'm not 100% sure of the length of time that they've been there - but if it's long enough for Rand to set AM to working on the weapons then it's long enough for the Borderland AS to find the new Amyrlin imo

Few hours.

Late-afternoon the same day as AMoL Chapter 1, she says: "Gawyn, he knows he shouldn't break those seals. A part of him does, at least. Perhaps that's why he told me—so I could gather resistance, so I could talk him out of it." Not exactly clear when Rand came with the Borderlanders, but it's that evening. That is how fast Egwene's thoughts changes from what they had been for the last month.

 

I bet anything that Brandon made up the whole part about Egwene wanting the seals never broken in ToM. RJ probably had only a note about some confrontation about the seals between Rand and Egwene. That whole chapter "The Amrylin's Anger" is weird. Then once he or someone else involved in the WoT world realized that there is no way to write an argument between Rand and Egwene in FOM with Egwene never wanting the seals to be broken without the No 2 character in the books looking like a total fool, they changed the narrative quickly in AMOL.

 

I think you're probably right, honestly I can't argue that Egs actions are consistent, but I prefer thinking a way that the story remains consistent. It seems reasonable that the AS would meet the new Amrylin, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. I'm a little worried now that it will be Rand that looks the fool :(

 

On a side note - Although I know that that was it, I was hoping for so much more from the amrylins anger! Problem is that Eg doesn't really have any authority to be angry with Rand - the bonding of the sisters wasn't his fault and in fact I'm reluctant to blame any of the AM. Breaking the seals - meh - yes her title is watcher of the seals, but really that's the only claim she can make and for that when's the last time an Amrylin actually watched them? She could get angry at his irresponsibility towards the BT, but that will finish better if it's a BT solution (certainly being set up that way).

[Agitel]

I just rationalize Egwene's thoughts in ToM with her not thinking the seals should be broken at the Fields of Merrilor.