What are mythological parallels for Rand having 3 wives?

[herid]

What are mythological parallels for Rand having 3 wives/girlfriends? RJ said in an interview that there are some.

Question

 

I was wondering, can you talk about how your lead character would have not one but three true loves, and how does your wife feel about that?

Robert Jordan

 

Um, when I was much younger, before I met Harriet, I had two girlfriends simultaneously, who arranged my dating schedule between them, who was going to date me on which night. They chipped in together to buy me birthday presents and Christmas presents. You know, they just sort of shared me between them, you know. And they had been friends before, and I am not quite sure whether or not they made the decision they were both going to date me or not, on their own, before they first met me, it just came about. But I figured if I could manage two, surely Rand could manage three. Besides there are mythological reasons to have these three women involved with him.

 

The most complete list of Rand character parallels that I know is by Linda at the thirteenth depository but it doesn't mention this issue.

This question is influenced by this recent thread about Mat's mythological parallels.

[Luckers]

Maiden, mother and crone, the three facets of many feminine conceptualisations of divinity. Aviendha is the maiden, Elayne the mother and Min the crone (because she's wise, mostly--the woman who sees beyond--but you'll also note she is deliberately older than either Rand or the other two girls).

[herid]

Maiden, mother and crone, the three facets of many feminine conceptualisations of divinity. Aviendha is the maiden, Elayne the mother and Min the crone (because she's wise, mostly--the woman who sees beyond--but you'll also note she is deliberately older than either Rand or the other two girls).

Thanks, Luckers, this is quite interesting and the parallels you mentions are certainly quite strong.

Following your post I'm now reading up on triple goddesses. Based on RJ's quote I'm hoping there is an even a tighter connection, meaning some specific names tied to some specific Rand parallels. Any ideas about that?

[claireducky]

Many god-like and/or Messianic figures had multiples wives.

 

Muhammad supposedly had more than nine.

 

Adam had three (Lilith, unnamed, and Eve).

 

Zeus had three.

 

Arthurian legend has him paired with multiple women.

 

Most importantly, because of the other parallels between the two, the God Thor is linked with three different women: Sif (golden haired), Jarnsaxa (a Jotunn or giantess) and an unnamed woman.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

might just be over-thinking this one....

[herid]

Many god-like and/or Messianic figures had multiples wives.

 

Muhammad supposedly had more than nine.

 

Adam had three (Lilith, unnamed, and Eve).

 

Zeus had three.

 

Arthurian legend has him paired with multiple women.

 

Most importantly, because of the other parallels between the two, the God Thor is linked with three different women: Sif (golden haired), Jarnsaxa (a Jotunn or giantess) and an unnamed woman.

Thanks, that's quite interesting. I must admit I'm not familiar with Adam having a 3rd unnamed wife. any references for that?

Also I believe number 3 is important so I don't think Muhammad and Arthur count. I didn't realize that Zeus had 3 wives but I looked it up and you are quite right, he did - Hera, Themis and Metis. He also was involved with a large number of other women though so I'm not sure about this one.

Very interesting about Thor.

 

might just be over-thinking this one....

well, we have a specific quote of RJ about it so I don't think so.

[claireducky]

I wouldn't discount Arthur out of hand. I also believe that three is significant (as it is a recurring theme in WoT). Depending on what version of Arthurian legend you read, he might have had three wives.

 

In the poem known as the Welsh Triad, King Arthur has three queens … and all three wives are named Guinevere or Gwenhwyfar. The first is called Gwenhwyfar, the daughter of Gwent (Cywryd); the second is called Gwenhwyfar, the daughter of Gwythyr son of Greidiawl; and the third wife is Gwenhwyfar, daughter of Gogfran or Gogrvan the Giant.

 

This must have made for complex marital relations in Camelot, or perhaps this story tells us something about the near universal (British and Irish) Celtic love for the number three. Such ancient British or Welsh legends may suggest that the three wives of King Arthur (the three Gwenhwyfars) form a sort of female trinity which encompasses the personification of Britain as a Lady, the Land of Britain as a Mother, and the Sovereignty of Britain as a Queen.

 

Guinevere or Gwenhwyfar, if this reading of the ancient legends is true, is more than simply a queen, she is also a triple goddess. And thus her marriage to King Arthur is necessary in that she bestows blessings upon him, through their sacred marriage.

 

For King Arthur to become The King of Britain, perhaps he himself must wed the three goddesses and bring forth life through to her to ensure the blessing of the peace and prosperity of the Arthurian Kingdom and the fertility and abundance of the Land.

[Luckers]

And of course, like many connected to the Andoran court, Elayne is an Arthurian reference--Elaine. Rand himself is an Arthur allegory--Jordan even directly stated that Rand is an Arthur type messiah, not a Jesus one (or was supposed to be).

[herid]

I wouldn't discount Arthur out of hand. I also believe that three is significant (as it is a recurring theme in WoT). Depending on what version of Arthurian legend you read, he might have had three wives.

 

In the poem known as the Welsh Triad, King Arthur has three queens … and all three wives are named Guinevere or Gwenhwyfar. The first is called Gwenhwyfar, the daughter of Gwent (Cywryd); the second is called Gwenhwyfar, the daughter of Gwythyr son of Greidiawl; and the third wife is Gwenhwyfar, daughter of Gogfran or Gogrvan the Giant.

 

This must have made for complex marital relations in Camelot, or perhaps this story tells us something about the near universal (British and Irish) Celtic love for the number three. Such ancient British or Welsh legends may suggest that the three wives of King Arthur (the three Gwenhwyfars) form a sort of female trinity which encompasses the personification of Britain as a Lady, the Land of Britain as a Mother, and the Sovereignty of Britain as a Queen.

 

Guinevere or Gwenhwyfar, if this reading of the ancient legends is true, is more than simply a queen, she is also a triple goddess. And thus her marriage to King Arthur is necessary in that she bestows blessings upon him, through their sacred marriage.

 

For King Arthur to become The King of Britain, perhaps he himself must wed the three goddesses and bring forth life through to her to ensure the blessing of the peace and prosperity of the Arthurian Kingdom and the fertility and abundance of the Land.

Thanks. Linda suggested the same thing to me on twitter. It turns out she actually discussed this in another post on her site -I just didn't find it. I admit I've assumed before that all those Guineveres were the same person just in different variations of the same myth (hence different parents) which is quite common.

[Hagazussa]

Maiden, mother and crone, the three facets of many feminine conceptualisations of divinity. Aviendha is the maiden, Elayne the mother and Min the crone (because she's wise, mostly--the woman who sees beyond--but you'll also note she is deliberately older than either Rand or the other two girls).

 

As a Pagan I have always felt that there are allot of details in the WoT books that fit directly into Pagan ideas. If we look at the archetypes that modern Pagans use we find a three fold Goddess who is consort with a single God who is sometimes referred to as the sacrificed and and reborn king, and in fact in modern neo Pagan practices this is celebrated through the eight sabbats. At Yule, the midwinter celebration, the Goddess have a son, a child of promise, this child grow into becoming the mighty sun God who then marries the Goddess when we get to summer, but in the Autumn the God is sacrificed to save the land and is then reborn as the child of promise again at Yule. And though all of this the Thee fold Goddess stand at his side. I definitely see parallels there.

 

I must admit I'm not familiar with Adam having a 3rd unnamed wife. any references for that?

 

According to Jewish texts God first created Adam and Lilith out of true earth, they where created as equals, however when Lilith refused to lie beneath Adam she fled Eden. God sent angels to try to bring her back, even threatening to kill her children but Lilith was not willing to submit to Adam. God decided to create a new wife for Adam so he begun to form another woman out to true earth but Adam did not accept this new wife since he had seen her created, then God put Adam to sleep and took a crooked rib from him and made Eva from that which off course then Adam accepted. I do not know however if the unnamed woman could be considered Adam's wife since he rejected her.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

thats oral tradition not text

 

 

and to someone above me. There are rj quotes saying it was just something he liked the idea of.

 

but you don't have to look far for literary and historical and current polygamy.

[Hagazussa]

Even if the story of Adam's ladies is oral tradition, and it might be I am not an expert on this legend, it is still fairly well known and what we are talking about here is what might have been an inspiration for Jordan when creating the character or what symbolism he wanted to portray. I however really do not see the story of Adam in there since among other thing the middle "wife" was not a wife at all and in some stories was not even completed.

 

Now as for polyamory and poligamy around the world that is common both in past history and in the present, and certainly I find Rand's relationships interesting for that reason, the the WoT books are one of the few Western books where polyamory is presented in a positive light. But I to wonder about symbolism around it, if there is a special significance of the number three and so on, and I do not know if you will find much hint to that symbolism in real life polyamory.

[Alric]

 

Now as for polyamory and poligamy around the world that is common both in past history and in the present, and certainly I find Rand's relationships interesting for that reason, the the WoT books are one of the few Western books where polyamory is presented in a positive light.

 

I find it interesting that it is included in these books, and that it has not to my knowledge been made any big deal or criticism out of. Other topics in the series like homosexuality, gender relations, and rape has caused huge discussions here and other places, but not this. I don't know what to make of it. Even though it doesn't make much of a difference to me I guess it is probably a huge thing to have it included for those who have an interest in it.

 

Maybe this is material for another thread, I just found it somewhat strange that its so hard to predict what will create controversy or not.

[Thrasymachus]

One of the issues with polygamy in the West has been that it's been a tradition that supports the subjugation of women. Even cultures which also have a tradition giving plenty of power to women, such as giving them the power of divorce and/or putting the ownership of property in their names, the relative power within the family of one husband-multiple wives, and the social power that family projects with a single male head-of-house tends to, over time, subvert that power. Jordan's own experiences with polyamory and the unique circumstances of the Third Age and Aiel culture have informed a society that deftly avoids most of grounds for the criticism of a polygamous culture, leaving one of the only routes to criticize Randland polygamy that of rejecting the believability of Aielish polygamy and then launching into a criticism of polygamy in general. Needless to say, that's not a very popular or successful route to take in this particular instance.

[Hagazussa]

I find it interesting that it is included in these books, and that it has not to my knowledge been made any big deal or criticism out of. Other topics in the series like homosexuality, gender relations, and rape has caused huge discussions here and other places, but not this. I don't know what to make of it. Even though it doesn't make much of a difference to me I guess it is probably a huge thing to have it included for those who have an interest in it.

 

It is a huge thing for those in the poly community, especially since it is handled in the way that it is and put in a positive light. I mean in Dune Paul have two wives but that is not by choice and it ends badly when one of them poisons the other one, so polyamory have been present in other books but then almost always presented in an ugly way, but in Wheel of Time it is shown to be a good and loving relationship both in the case of Rand and in how the Aiel is shown to marry more than one person.

 

One of the issues with polygamy in the West has been that it's been a tradition that supports the subjugation of women. Even cultures which also have a tradition giving plenty of power to women, such as giving them the power of divorce and/or putting the ownership of property in their names, the relative power within the family of one husband-multiple wives, and the social power that family projects with a single male head-of-house tends to, over time, subvert that power. Jordan's own experiences with polyamory and the unique circumstances of the Third Age and Aiel culture have informed a society that deftly avoids most of grounds for the criticism of a polygamous culture, leaving one of the only routes to criticize Randland polygamy that of rejecting the believability of Aielish polygamy and then launching into a criticism of polygamy in general. Needless to say, that's not a very popular or successful route to take in this particular instance.

 

I definitely see your point here, but it is still amazing that not more criticism is given for in most other materials where polyamory is shown in a positive light someone go ballistic, and if someone in the real world should admit to being polyamorous then you are told all kinds to thing of how horrible your lifestyle choice is. To see a fantasy series where polyamory is presented just being accepted is amazing and it is a testament I think to Jordan's skill as an author that he managed to present it in such a way that it just seam natural and good.

[Thrasymachus]

Much other material where polygamy is shown in a positive light tends to be apologies for historical or present polygamous societies, which, unfortunately, tend to not be shining examples of gender equality and female empowerment. It's also important, I think, to note the distinction between polygamous societies, where a man may have multiple wives, and polyamorous societies, where any number of men and women may form a family unit, as long as it's all consensual. There's plenty of historical and present examples of the former, and aside from a few free-love communes in the 60's and 70's, not many examples of the latter. And polygamy is almost by definition a social practice that subjugates women, even if you tack on mitigating social powers. Aiel escape criticism because it's largely ambiguous whether they are polyamorous or polygamous, and even if they are strictly polygamous, general conditions that prevail throughout the world thanks to the taint have and somewhat unique Aiel culture have ensured that, if anything, men are the subjugated gender in this circumstance.