Prologue Spoilers - Emarin

[The Fisher King]

Linda...you mean like that time (Grady?) told Perrin he wished he knew why his wife's knee was hurting?

 

 

Fish

[Sid]

Regarding Canler, can i just say that he is the guy who invented the weave for Asha'man bonding his wives so that each partner knows how the other one is.

 

Ok, I admit that this makes him an unlikely candidate, but... yeah. I think we might be back to square one unless there were some extremely serious oversights.

[The Fisher King]

''Her knee is hurting. Right now, her knee is hurting.''

 

LOL - I don't know why, but for some reason that line always cracked me up.

 

 

Fish

[Linda]

That's the scene, yes.

[Terez]

re: Cyndane, the quote Luckers references is the quote that proved there was nothing sexual between Moridin and Cyndane. Alas, because that was my first impression after reading TOM. (That Cyndane was Moridin's sex slave, and that he always loved her and wanted her for himself while she was chasing after Lews Therin.)

 

Now, since Brandon said that the notes don't say either way for both Moridin and his gay character, it's possible it could be Moridin because Moridin meets the requirements. But I doubt it, since Moridin clearly has his mind on other things.

[Luckers]

Yeah, I give up on Canler.

[usuallurker]

By the way, there is a difference between prejudice against homosexual people and what we saw with Tarna. She doesn't think less of Galina because Galina is a lesbian, and she even acknowledges that other sisters (legitimately) disagree.

 

I don't think we're privy to enough of her thoughts to know whether she thinks less of Galina as a person for being a lesbian or, at least, bisexual. She just thinks that lesbianism is something that girls should put away when they become women, IIRC. There was no afterthought like "But her feelings here did not lessen her respect for Galina as an Aes Sedai." She could well think that Galina is developmentally stunted and a bad choice to be leader of the Reds, though there's no evidence for that either.

 

Regardless, for people who aren't as high-minded as you believe Tarna is and may be, their feelings on the practice of homosexuality often bleed over into their feelings on homosexuals themselves. Which is why I think it's ridiculous for to imagine a society where individuals do not have prejudices against gays. There will always be people for whom homosexuality was an experimental phase who project that onto others, or who have a negative, visceral reaction to the act itself, and judge gays as arrested adolescents or disgusting as a result. I don't like it. It probably affects me more than it affects you. But it's just the way it is.

[usuallurker]

Also Moridin is worth speculating about, beyond his enthusiasm for flambed rat and generalised torture, we know nix about his sexual orientation.

 

Yeah but didn't Brandon say something about wanting to handle it in a way that was respectful toward homosexuals? I feel like if that's the case it's more likely to be a good guy... Just doesn't seem respectful to have the one gay man be the most evil character in the series.

[Terez]

Regardless, for people who aren't as high-minded as you believe Tarna is and may be, their feelings on the practice of homosexuality often bleed over into their feelings on homosexuals themselves. Which is why I think it's ridiculous for to imagine a society where individuals do not have prejudices against gays. There will always be people for whom homosexuality was an experimental phase who project that onto others, or who have a negative, visceral reaction to the act itself, and judge gays as arrested adolescents or disgusting as a result. I don't like it. It probably affects me more than it affects you. But it's just the way it is.

 

Your logic doesn't make any sense, really. Tarna's thoughts probably reflected RJ's own prejudices more than anything else, and his comments on the subject make it clear that homosexuality is not a big deal in his world. If it's not a big deal, then no one is going to get married simply to hide being gay.

[The Fisher King]

Marcus Bachmann did.

 

 

Fish

[Terez]

Which is relevant to WoT how?

[The Fisher King]

Oh its not. Total OT joke. Just struck me funny based on the previous post concerning characters in WOT not needing to marry to conceal being gay, that's all.

 

 

Fish

[Vassili]

Your logic doesn't make any sense, really. Tarna's thoughts probably reflected RJ's own prejudices more than anything else, and his comments on the subject make it clear that homosexuality is not a big deal in his world. If it's not a big deal, then no one is going to get married simply to hide being gay.

 

No, but he was also the head of a powerful House. He was probably expected to produce an heir. And nobles frequently marry for political gain. Since there is no gay marriage in Randland (as far as I know) a noble may be obligated to marry someone of the opposite sex just to be married.

[Terez]

This has already been discussed. Emarin had that motive; Canler did not. And either way, it doesn't fit with Brandon's comments on the subject (though as Luckers points out, it's possible Brandon overlooked that detail about Emarin).

[usuallurker]

Your logic doesn't make any sense, really. Tarna's thoughts probably reflected RJ's own prejudices more than anything else, and his comments on the subject make it clear that homosexuality is not a big deal in his world. If it's not a big deal, then no one is going to get married simply to hide being gay.

 

I've given two reasons why men would hide their homosexuality even in cultures where homosexuality is not a big deal, based on my interactions with men who have hid their homosexuality despite having been raised in cultures/subcultures where being gay isn't a big deal and my own experiences. The desire to have a family and to play the societal role of a father is one. Some men really do define themselves through fatherhood, just as some women define themselves through motherhood, and I have known gay men who remained closeted for that reason alone. Being a father was more important to them than having a partner they were all that attracted to emotionally or physically (though gay men do often form close emotional relationships with women). The desire to fit in is also a big one. Growing up gay, you know you are different from a very early age. Societal acceptance is a huge help in coming to terms with that, but it doesn't erase the feeling of difference. Living a straight lifestyle is a somewhat effective way of ignoring that feeling of difference.

[Terez]

Your logic doesn't make any sense, really. Tarna's thoughts probably reflected RJ's own prejudices more than anything else, and his comments on the subject make it clear that homosexuality is not a big deal in his world. If it's not a big deal, then no one is going to get married simply to hide being gay.

 

I've given two reasons why men would hide their homosexuality even in cultures where homosexuality is not a big deal...

 

That's not what I was talking about.

[Sharaman]

I think the social systems we'e seen in WoT are so different we can't speculate on if and when, a gay person would want to hide himself assuming he would, at all.

The Aiel for example have an impenetrably complex family structure.

AS rarely (but sometimes) marry and they can apparently contemplate bearing children without being married without any hassle (Flynn's offer from Samitsu).

The Seanchan are crazy - while having a rigid caste system, they can marry slaves (Egeanin) and the children of slaves seem to have normal status (Furyk Karede's family).

Who's to say if Emarin is/isn't a predominantly gay guy who married to keep the line going?

Or that (Early book reference Lan to Rand about borderland customs regarding calling somebody father-son) Emarin could also cheerfully adopt children without physically fathering them or marrying if he chose to?

But his being married and ditto Canler does seem to make him a more unlikely candidate.

[usuallurker]

Your logic doesn't make any sense, really. Tarna's thoughts probably reflected RJ's own prejudices more than anything else.

 

What are you basing this on, anyway? Why do Tarna's thoughts reflect RJ's feelings on lesbianism and not Elaida's, or Galina's, or Meidani's, or that Sea Folk woman who got caught with the Cairhienin?

[usuallurker]

Your logic doesn't make any sense, really. Tarna's thoughts probably reflected RJ's own prejudices more than anything else, and his comments on the subject make it clear that homosexuality is not a big deal in his world. If it's not a big deal, then no one is going to get married simply to hide being gay.

 

I've given two reasons why men would hide their homosexuality even in cultures where homosexuality is not a big deal...

 

That's not what I was talking about.

 

Ok. The issue started over the discussion about beards, and you're right that my argument about gay men marrying to be fathers isn't relevant to that discussion. So I take that all back.

 

As for the argument about fitting in, I think our disagreement may involve a different interpretation of "not a big deal" or whatever phrasing Jordan used. A lot of straight people who would probably say that homosexuality is not a big deal are nonetheless not as comfortable around gays as they are around straights. So to me, some gay people would still have a motivation to have 'beards' in a society where homosexuality is not a big deal, though obviously it's not a huge one. If "not a big deal" means universal, one hundred percent acceptance or something very close, then you're right, 'beards' are pointless.

 

Maybe I'm just a pessimist, but I think "not a big deal" still leaves a lot of room for individual prejudice. Which is why I cited Tarna's thoughts on the matter.

[Suttree]

If "not a big deal" means universal, one hundred percent acceptance or something very close, then you're right, 'beards' are pointless.

 

Think that is generally how that quote is accepted within the fandom.

[Heronz]

After such a strong bloodline to produce Channelers it ends with Emarin... =T

[mjasghar786]

Umm ok

Eganin had to free bayle before she could marry him - remember that's why they take time to do it as its difficult in seanchan law. Yet we know that deathwatch guards do get married, which seems strange as you would think that interferes with their duty

Anyway, there is no record of gay marriage that I can recall and some societies do seem to frown on such relationships at least in so far as when they break marriage vows - which was why the sea folk woman was so scared of it being known about

Think about, this is an era with no ivf so exclusively gay relationships are at least discouraged or those that way inclined have dead end outlets eg maidens of the spear - who are politically dead ends as they won't be clan chiefs or roof mistresses

There is toleration but I would say there is also a strong pushing away from that as well

[Adam_a.west]

I am betting on Androl, anyone could be gay but i think BS will pick a single character. If it were up to me tho it Galad and Perrin would be pillow friends but thats clearly not gonna happen lol

 

It could be a married man like Emarin tho since often in the past men with attaction for other men would still get wives to produce childern, it was economical, more kids means more hands on the farm/shop/army. Emarin could be with his wife for political or economical reasons and have a male pillow friend on the side...still im guessing Androl.

 

Anyone think its someone who has not been named yet on this forum?

[joeron bigelow]

 

 

Yeah but didn't Brandon say something about wanting to handle it in a way that was respectful toward homosexuals? I feel like if that's the case it's more likely to be a good guy... Just doesn't seem respectful to have the one gay man be the most evil character in the series.

 

 

To jump on this bandwagon - if the above is true, I would want a young, semi main character as the gay guy - not two old guys who "found each other." I have the picture of the magneto guy (he gay right) and another guy i cant recall his name...he old now but originally played the main guy in sound of music.

 

Ok now that i have those two old guys in your head as "gay," I would think we would want someone off the following list to be the gay character:

 

1. Galad - way too easy here, strikingly beautiful to everyone, but probably hooking up with berelain, so no.

2. Perrin - big "bear" type, 1970s gay guy...but no

3. Mat - imagine all his POV voice by "sheldon" of the big bang theory...hilarious.

4. Rand - um...no

5. Wil a seen....hmm has a crush on lord perrin?

6. Androl...the name sounds like a steroid...i say maybe.

7. Logain...kisses women to bond them...maybe?

8. Gawyn...too wimpy, no.

9. One of the Aiel? not enough info...dont know what goes on in the bath tents...haha.

10. Talmanes...no proof otherwise. Just likes hanging around Mat.

11. One of the Forsaken...now again...imagine "sheldon" from the big bang theory playing the part of Moridin...or even Taim. Ugh too funny.

 

I must have missed a few, but based on my list...androl, logain, and/or wil a'seen.

 

Hope I dont offend, just trying to lighten the mood here.

[Neophyte]

 

To jump on this bandwagon - if the above is true, I would want a young, semi main character as the gay guy - not two old guys who "found each other." I have the picture of the magneto guy (he gay right) and another guy i cant recall his name...he old now but originally played the main guy in sound of music.

 

 

The best description of Sirs Ian McKellen and Christopher Plummer I've ever read.