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Sealing of the Bore


MountaineerWV
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The nature of the Bore

 

The Bore is not a physical tunnel of sorts that runs through the Pattern to the Dark One's prison. Herid Fel laughed at the concept that a mortal could create a new prison for the Dark One. He also made it quite clear that the prison has to be repaired in such a way that is is fully intact, how the Creator made it, in order for the cycle to continue. Otherwise you would have Lanfear boring into a patch during the next cycle.

 

Rand cannot put a patch on the DO's Prison and cannot build a new prison.

 

Now I'm not a physicist, and I'm sure someone here will have a better understanding of this than I do, but I speculate that the Bore is similar to a wormhole. A wormhole creates a tunnel through space, but when it disappears...there is no hole in the fabric of space. It's just gone.

 

The Bore is similar to a wormhole, created with both saidin and saidar. When the DO's prison was accessed he fortified the bore with the True Power during the War of Power. It is currently held open with the Seals. As long as the Seals are in place, he can't reach through the Bore, but the tunnel cannot be severed. That is why the seals need to be broken before the Bore can be deconstructed and the Dark One sealed away.

 

How is Callandor involved in this?

 

It is speculated that the three become one means that saidin, saidar, and the True Power. Those are the three that become one. Using that as truth, I think the sword of light, and Rand holding all three sources of power, will be able to severe the Bore. Once the Bore is severed, either end will retract like a cut rubber band and then disappear. The prison is resealed and as good as when the Creator first made it.

 

NOTE: I always agreed with the idea that Fain would be used as a buffer in the patch, but that would be pretty close to the Gollum ending. Fain has to be sacrificed in order to win and all. Also, RJ stated in an interview that if Fain was sent into the DO's Prison that he would be spit back out.

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Yeah, the quote is from Brandon.

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Dec 25th, 2010

Stormblessed.com Interview with Brandon Sanderson (Verbatim)

 

QUESTION

Everyone's favorite Wheel of Time question has been answered—after Towers of Midnight, we now know who killed Asmodean. It doesn't seem right to leave you without a WoT question, so in honor of Asmodean: What do you think would happen if Rand managed to hurl Padan Fain through the Bore into the Dark One's prison?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

The Dark One would spit him back out because he tastes bad.

 

 

A sneaky one, because it doesn't exactly disprove the used as buffer theory. The DO has no problems dealing with Fain if he was thrown into the Prison, but he could use Fain has a temporary shield. It does not say how long it would take for the DO to spit him back out.

 

However, I don't like Fain- Sealing theories in any way, I hope he is in no way involved in the actual sealing, it would be too much like Gollum and the theme has already been used. it would simply be a repeat of the Cleansing.

 

I think Fel was wrong about Rand not being able to seal the bore. He doesn't have the understanding. As far as he is concerned, the AoL was the first time that the prison was breached. However, it is likely that it has been breached many times over many turnings.

 

The Creator takes no part in events, RJ has been explicit on this point, no miracles from the Creator. Yes, there must come a time when the bore is re-sealed perfectly for the next 2nd Age, but I think that Rand can and will do it properly. How, I don't know, but if we take what RJ said to be true, that the Creator does not interfere, and that the Wheel has and will turn endlessly, then humans must be able to seal it perfectly.

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I think Fel was wrong about Rand not being able to seal the bore. He doesn't have the understanding. As far as he is concerned, the AoL was the first time that the prison was breached. However, it is likely that it has been breached many times over many turnings.

 

I don't think Fel thought that was the first time. He seems to have a pretty good grasp on the nature of the wheel.

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I think Fel was wrong about Rand not being able to seal the bore. He doesn't have the understanding. As far as he is concerned, the AoL was the first time that the prison was breached. However, it is likely that it has been breached many times over many turnings.

 

I don't think Fel thought that was the first time. He seems to have a pretty good grasp on the nature of the wheel.

 

Perhaps, I would have to look back at the conversations, but he is under the assumption that this is either the first time, where Lanfear destroyed the Creator's original prison, or that the Creator at some point intervened and patched up the Bore properly.

 

In both cases, if we take what RJ said about the Creator not going to help out, Fel is wrong.

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The Creator takes no part in events, RJ has been explicit on this point, no miracles from the Creator. Yes, there must come a time when the bore is re-sealed perfectly for the next 2nd Age, but I think that Rand can and will do it properly. How, I don't know, but if we take what RJ said to be true, that the Creator does not interfere, and that the Wheel has and will turn endlessly, then humans must be able to seal it perfectly.

 

This is where we disagree. Humans cannot recreate the Creator's work. Either there is a patch or a whole prison. The Creator made the prison - Rand is not the Creator and therefore cannot make a new prison for the DO. If it's a patch, then using the cyclical logic of WoT, then there has always been a patch in the DO's prison. The Creator made his prison with a patch.

 

I'm saying the Bore will be removed and the prison will be as intact as when the Creator made it.

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I think Fel was wrong about Rand not being able to seal the bore. He doesn't have the understanding. As far as he is concerned, the AoL was the first time that the prison was breached. However, it is likely that it has been breached many times over many turnings.

 

I don't think Fel thought that was the first time. He seems to have a pretty good grasp on the nature of the wheel.

 

Perhaps, I would have to look back at the conversations, but he is under the assumption that this is either the first time, where Lanfear destroyed the Creator's original prison, or that the Creator at some point intervened and patched up the Bore properly.

 

In both cases, if we take what RJ said about the Creator not going to help out, Fel is wrong.

 

I'm sorry, but this is why Fel is correct. Fel is arguing that the Dragon is not the Creator. That sealing the Bore or recreating another prison is ludicrous.

 

The Bore is not a physical tunnel. It is a construct built of the One Power that connects what is inside the Patter to the DO's prison. Remove that construct and the DO is sealed away AND the prison is as new as the moment the Creator created it.

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The Creator takes no part in events, RJ has been explicit on this point, no miracles from the Creator. Yes, there must come a time when the bore is re-sealed perfectly for the next 2nd Age, but I think that Rand can and will do it properly. How, I don't know, but if we take what RJ said to be true, that the Creator does not interfere, and that the Wheel has and will turn endlessly, then humans must be able to seal it perfectly.

 

This is where we disagree. Humans cannot recreate the Creator's work. Either there is a patch or a whole prison. The Creator made the prison - Rand is not the Creator and therefore cannot make a new prison for the DO. If it's a patch, then using the cyclical logic of WoT, then there has always been a patch in the DO's prison. The Creator made his prison with a patch.

 

I'm saying the Bore will be removed and the prison will be as intact as when the Creator made it.

I bolded the part where you went wrong. The Dragon clearly has the key ingredient to properly seal the Bore. Rand doesn't need to make a new prison; he needs to realise the Creator gave him the tools to fully repair the Pattern to the state it had before the Bore was drilled. Edited by Mik
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I think Fel was wrong about Rand not being able to seal the bore. He doesn't have the understanding. As far as he is concerned, the AoL was the first time that the prison was breached. However, it is likely that it has been breached many times over many turnings.

 

I don't think Fel thought that was the first time. He seems to have a pretty good grasp on the nature of the wheel.

 

Perhaps, I would have to look back at the conversations, but he is under the assumption that this is either the first time, where Lanfear destroyed the Creator's original prison, or that the Creator at some point intervened and patched up the Bore properly.

 

In both cases, if we take what RJ said about the Creator not going to help out, Fel is wrong.

 

I'm sorry, but this is why Fel is correct. Fel is arguing that the Dragon is not the Creator. That sealing the Bore or recreating another prison is ludicrous.

 

The Bore is not a physical tunnel. It is a construct built of the One Power that connects what is inside the Patter to the DO's prison. Remove that construct and the DO is sealed away AND the prison is as new as the moment the Creator created it.

 

But that is exactly what Rand would be doing. recreating the prison.

 

Patching the Bore and removing it amounts to the same thing. It is making the prison whole again.

 

Fel was saying that only the Creator can fix it properly, which is untrue.

 

If Rand does what you suggest, it fixes the problem and it goes back to the exact same way it was made by the Creator. The why and how is irrelevant. It amounts to the same thing - a perfect prison.

 

All I was saying is that Fel's premise was incorrect. There is a way for humans to make the prison perfect again.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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The Creator takes no part in events, RJ has been explicit on this point, no miracles from the Creator. Yes, there must come a time when the bore is re-sealed perfectly for the next 2nd Age, but I think that Rand can and will do it properly. How, I don't know, but if we take what RJ said to be true, that the Creator does not interfere, and that the Wheel has and will turn endlessly, then humans must be able to seal it perfectly.

 

This is where we disagree. Humans cannot recreate the Creator's work. Either there is a patch or a whole prison. The Creator made the prison - Rand is not the Creator and therefore cannot make a new prison for the DO. If it's a patch, then using the cyclical logic of WoT, then there has always been a patch in the DO's prison. The Creator made his prison with a patch.

 

I'm saying the Bore will be removed and the prison will be as intact as when the Creator made it.

I bolded the part where you went wrong. The Dragon clearly has the key ingredient to properly seal the Bore. Rand doesn't need to make a new prison; he needs to realise the Creator gave him the tools to fully repair the Pattern to the state it had before the Bore was drilled.

 

If Rand patches the Bore, then the prison is not in the same state as when it was created.

 

The Creator has given him the tools to remove the Bore, thereby the prison will be in the same state as when it was created.

 

There is a difference.

 

I think Fel was wrong about Rand not being able to seal the bore. He doesn't have the understanding. As far as he is concerned, the AoL was the first time that the prison was breached. However, it is likely that it has been breached many times over many turnings.

 

I don't think Fel thought that was the first time. He seems to have a pretty good grasp on the nature of the wheel.

 

Perhaps, I would have to look back at the conversations, but he is under the assumption that this is either the first time, where Lanfear destroyed the Creator's original prison, or that the Creator at some point intervened and patched up the Bore properly.

 

In both cases, if we take what RJ said about the Creator not going to help out, Fel is wrong.

 

I'm sorry, but this is why Fel is correct. Fel is arguing that the Dragon is not the Creator. That sealing the Bore or recreating another prison is ludicrous.

 

The Bore is not a physical tunnel. It is a construct built of the One Power that connects what is inside the Patter to the DO's prison. Remove that construct and the DO is sealed away AND the prison is as new as the moment the Creator created it.

 

But that is exactly what Rand would be doing. recreating the prison.

 

Patching the Bore and removing it amounts to the same thing. It is making the prison whole again.

 

Fel was saying that only the Creator can fix it properly, which is untrue.

 

If Rand does what you suggest, it fixes the problem and it goes back to the exact same way it was made by the Creator. The why and how is irrelevant. It amounts to the same thing - a perfect prison.

 

All I was saying is that Fel's premise was incorrect. There is a way for humans to make the prison perfect again.

 

What evidence do you have that Fel was incorrect?

 

I can't find the quote, but I'm remember LTT admits that he sinned with his arrogance in thinking that humans have the capabilities of matching the Creator. In reference to patching the Bore.

 

I'm showing evidence that Fel was correct and a method of sealing away the Dark One that meets all the requirements for the cyclical mythology of the Wheel of Time.

Edited by MountaineerWV
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To perhaps clarify my opinion, I should explain what I believe the "prison" is.

 

The Creator didn't actually seal the DO away, thematically, it doesn't fit. It should be impossible for the Creator to do so. RJ has said that they are equal opposites.

 

What I believe is that the Creator placed a protective shield around his creation, keeping the DO out of the Pattern.

 

The Bore created a hole in the "shield" allowing the DO to reach into Creation.

 

 

What evidence do you have that Fel was incorrect?

 

I can't find the quote, but I'm remember LTT admits that he sinned with his arrogance in thinking that humans have the capabilities of matching the Creator. In reference to patching the Bore.

 

I'm showing evidence that Fel was correct and a method of sealing away the Dark One that meets all the requirements for the cyclical mythology of the Wheel of Time.

 

1. You believe the rambling of a grieving madman is evidence? The guy is insane over killing his own wife. It is a bit of hyperbole. :tongue:

 

2. I think you may have misunderstood what I said, or are debating a different thing.

 

I am not saying that humans can replicate the feats of the Creator.

 

I am saying that humans can make the Bore perfect again, semantics aside.

 

Fel was saying that only intervention by the Creator can make the Bore perfect once again.

 

This is false. RJ, as I said, has been explicit in saying that the Creator will not ever step in and fix the pattern. The Creator has left it all to humans.

 

The Wheel is endless, then logically, there comes a point when the Bore is - by whatever means- fixed and creation is back to it's original state. If the Creator never interferes, then humans are the only ones that can fix the bore back to it's perfected state.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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