The Trouble with Cadsuane

[Damer Sedai]

Apologies, to start... perhaps the last thing this board needs is another hot-button Cadsuane topic, but I have been musing on this issue for over a decade, and I havent seen a lot of discussion on this particular angle.

 

I have conflicting feelings on Cadsuane: I love her role a great deal of the time (and I smile every time my audiobook goes “Phaw!”), and I admit, I seethe about her in other chapters. I suppose that is the sign of a dynamic and complex character done right. It has been helpful to read all the thoughts on the pro-Cadsuane crowd here at DM and other sites, which has helped reconcile many of my concerns about of the ol' gal (aside a from a few near-deal breakers, but thats another discussion.) I am not sure I should be wading into this territory, considering its probably being critical of RJ himself, but here goes:

 

Once Cadsuane entered the picture in ACoS, my love for Rand related chapters started to diminish... but why? I found Cadsuane really interesting. While personally disliking her methods on visceral level, I found her a complex, great character and and a ceritfied Bad Ass ™ Was is Rand himself I didnt in books 7-11 that I didnt enjoy? No... While Rand was unlikelable at times, RJ still deftly wrote him so that he was sympathetic. Furthermore, the Cadsuane – Rand dynamic is pretty fascinating: their interactions are interesting, and I have read each characters POV chapters several times, because their perspectives and reactions to each other's moves and motives are great drama.

 

My problems was the remainder of the material, the change in plotting... the actual ACTION as the mechanism to integrate Cadsuane into team Rand. I find it quite interesting that some condemn Sanderson's writing for sacrificing one character to make another great (the example in TGS Tam vs. Cadsuane is usually brought up, which I guess I see a little as well), when I felt that RJ himself may have been at least a little guiltly of this w/ regards to uplifting Cadsuane by diminishing Rand (please, dont throw fruit! RJ is the best!)

 

As soon as Cadsuane is on the scene, Rand's competence... (looks back at previous books, sees that competence is a relative measure) … well, at least his effectiveness takes a significant hit. Hell, it happens to other characters too, for example Lan. Suddenly, a great need for Cadsuane appears because of Rand and Co. failures and inadequacies. Its quite subtle, but Starting in ACOS, we see example after example where Rand fails not only to suceed, but generally appears moderately incompetent and accomplishes nothing, with the result in comes Cadsuane (and friends) to the rescue.

Now Rand has needed a lot of help in the eariler books too - from Moraine in TDR, Nynaeve in TFoH, to Lanfear in TGH and TSR, but he is a major contributor in these events, and seems an essential figure. With Cadsuane of the scene, action Rand is either passive or incompetent or both.

 

I hate the term Mary Sue, and I dont really think it applies here anyway, but Cadsuane's hypercompetence and lack of failure, set backs, or even challenges to her internal thoughts in her PoV in the RJ written WoT books, just doesnt fit the tone of the rest of the books. All other characters, from Ba'alzamon, the Amilryn Seat (both of them), evry Aes Sedai and Black Ajah, Queens (such as Morgase), the Supergirls, and the Ta'averen Trio had failures, need rescue, need help, get cut down to size, or just plain lose... except Cadsuane. For the number of books she is present, and the for the literary weight she is given, this is unprecidented.

 

I wonder if this is part of the reason why Cadsuane is so disliked. I suspect it is in part a source for the Cadsuane = Black Ajah theories in the past that are now defunct.

 

Am I the only one?

[thisguy]

I think you've expressed a major part of the issue very well, and you're right! It's exactly what some people blame BS of doing. She is Super AS. She should wear a cape with a big C on it. And, yes, everyone around her is diminished in many of the scenes to make her look wonderful.

 

I could almost deal with that. RJ wanted an AS advisor that could put Rand in his place so he needed to create a strong enough character. Personally, I would have been sold on her wisdom and power if she went about things in a different way. But, that's just me....

[GYLD]

I'd not say Rand was diminished to make Cadsuane look good. Cadsuane's arrival was shortly after the box incident which left Rand severely traumatized. Any analysis of his behavior needs to take that into consideration.

 

I do admit though that Rand was laughably unprepared for the Cleansing before Cadsuane and her entourage showed up in Far Madding. What exactly was the plan after Rand and Nynaeve started channeling through the Access Keys? Were Lan and Min going to hold off the Forsaken?

 

As for the lack of failures, while I can't say with any certainty, I do imagine the Domination Band incident was part of RJ's notes.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think the general idea of the interaction is good, I don't think that it is any one character at fault.

 

It is hard to explain, but image the scale of competence is 1-10.

 

Lets say Rand is a 7, and Cadsuane is a 8.

 

They aren't really that different.

 

However, for plot reasons, Rand suffers a blow to competence and sanity in general. Cadsuane on the other hand, is experienced with this type of thing.

 

Thus, the competence level of the characters change.

 

Rand goes down to 6, and Cadsuane is raised to 9.

 

Even though both have only moved 1 spot each, the gap - when before they were on relatively equal terms - becomes glaringly obvious.

 

In that way, I think the competence of the two are distorted by this effect, and it seems like Rand is stupid, and Cadsuane is God.

[thisguy]

See, I don't see Rand as becoming incompetent, or less competent, after the box ordeal. Angry, yes. But, he wanted to send Perrin out with Berelain, he wanted to destroy the connection between them as far as people could see as much as possible to protect them, etc, etc. And, he did so. After that, he took Illian. He took it easily (in Messiah terms) and quickly. And, his prior demands that grain be sent to Illian helped.

 

It's after that that he starts falling apart - not listening to Bashere and going after the Seanchan when he could have stepped back and come back fresh a couple of days later. Left some scouts. Then getting locked up in Far Madding finally threw him over the edge. But, right after that he cleans the taint - which is no small deal.

[Damer Sedai]

I'd not say Rand was diminished to make Cadsuane look good. Cadsuane's arrival was shortly after the box incident which left Rand severely traumatized. Any analysis of his behavior needs to take that into consideration.

 

 

I agree - Rand should probably be the poster child for PTSD since TEotW, and things have only become worse since, with a psychotic break due at any minute due to Rand's mistreatment by Galina, and his thought process, as well as his decision making have become suspect at this time. I am taking about his impact and his actions becoming suprisingly ineffectual, and the net result.

 

 

A few examples

 

In ACoS Ch 36, at the Cairhein rebel camp, Cadsuane takes charge after the bubble of evil. There are good reasons for her to do so, and Rand has good reason to acquiese, so far so good... until Rand uses balefire to save somewon, Cadsuane admonishes and slaps him and Fain leaps in stabbing Rand in the side. Rand nearly dies, and a combination of Cadsuane, Samitsu and Flinn save him. He gives Cadsuane as much credit as the healers who did the bulk of the work. Heck, Samitsu dialog even notes that if Cadsuane hadnt acted, Rand may have died.

Net result: Cadsuane (and her attendants, + Flinn) save Rand, is a victor; rand is a follower, a passive victim, and is now indebted. I dont have a big problem with it. The hero isnt invicible, we have seen it before. And more importants it fits into one of RJ major themes: even when there is a Messiah figure, it still takes a Village to Save the Pattern

 

In the campaign against the Seachan, he pushes the assault past the point of reason at the foot of Ebou Dar, against Bashere and other's advice and despite his own cahnneling problems. Its a bad move, but its not the first time Rand has been unreasonable about these things. Disaster strikes only when Rand uses Callandor and he kills a great number of his own men (in addition to the enemy, but apparently he doesnt even get to know that, thus doubling Rand's failure in his own mind). But he didnt know that Callandor was unsafe for him to use. Why would it be, the incredibly powerful Sa-angreal for men that the Dragon reborn is linked with in prophesy? Nobody knows that! ... well, ALMOST nobody. There are 2 narrative ideas driving this sequence: first, the Dragon Reborn doesnt just win every battle because he is preordained, wisdom is required. And number 2, as a result, Cadsuane reveals how essential she is, knowing secrets that are essential to the Dragon REborns success.

Net reuslt Cadsuane appears knowledgable, Rand fails again, is careless. All full within the theme, I buy, it because RJ sells it so well, and it fits with all the well developed themes of power in the books.

 

NO 3, the Far Madding Debacle WH Ch 22. While I dislike the whole enterprise by Rand, I yield to RJ vison. Another poor decision by a mind deteriorating from madness and suspicion. Rand tracks Rochaid and Kisman, gets caught in an ambush anyway, but kills Rochaid (hey, a success!)... Kisman gets away because of the uber elite policing skills of the Far Madding watch (meh, no biggie). He fails to find the remainder three, while Cadsuane shows up and explains that your few certain, loyal asahman now have divided loyalties (at best?)... to Cadsuane's team of Aes sedai. Why? We still dont know (backmail is noted in WH Ch13 but the particulars are unknown - I am willing to give Cadsuane the benefit of the doubt that is reasonable justification, but it makes her a little more despicable). Just as Rand has an epiphany about his need for Cadsuane, his quarry appears. Another trap, which he springs, but its not the trap he expects, falling. Rand apparently cant fight Fain because of the wound in his side, but manages a draw. He is able to withdraw, but since his plan involved Nynaeve using the power, which is detected by the guardians, the watch shows up (Which would have been nice for him to know....) They are escaping on the rooftops, when Lan, Warder, Ninja, human weapon, the man who smuggled himself and Moraine into the stone of tear, basically slips and falls. Rand grabs him, gets off a classic line, then is pulled down off the roof and is knocked unconcious. Cadsuane's brilliant plan goes off without a hitch, and Rand is rescued.

Net result: Rand cant win for trying, and falls of a building to boot. Cadsuane gets her coonditions with Rand, ties all sorts of threads to Rand (Alanna as a Rand detector, his Ashamen bonded), and rescues him again

 

Last example

I do admit though that Rand was laughably unprepared for the Cleansing before Cadsuane and her entourage showed up in Far Madding. What exactly was the plan after Rand and Nynaeve started channeling through the Access Keys? Were Lan and Min going to hold off the Forsaken?

 

Agreed. While damaged, there was no indication that Rand had turned into a blithering idiot, but we are given no information. I suspect he would not have moved so quickly if team Cadsuane had not been so immediately available... perhaps in addition to Alivia, he would gate in Ashamen and sworn Aes Sedai, Narishma w/ Callendor (he did bring it along), IDK, RJ didnt mention it because it probably wasnt important. We never hear of it, making Rand look short sighted at best.

 

Here Rand is effective in ACTION at least, probably the only time it occurs in RJ books the two of them are together, prior to the emergence of Dark Rand.... but only because of the effective defense grid Cadsuane set up, far superior to anything we have seen before. Obviously Cadsuane and her experience, plus men & women linked teams, pluse multiple sets of weave breaking and one power detecting ter'angreal is going to be more loads more effective than anything Rand had planned, and given the relative lack of losses on team Light vs. a pack of chosen, this was the most effective channeling plan we have seen to date.

Net result: Rand is successful... but likely would have failed w/o Cadsuane. It was a great read, one of my favorite scenes in the book. It made me like Cadsuane even more.... but it was getting a little much.

 

One more (bear with me, didnt expect to write a critical analysis) big one:

The Treaty with TuonMirhage. Cadsuane prevents ambush by breaking the Mirror of Mists (or is it Illusion). Rand fails to grasp the source, is a sitting duck (literally, because Min is behind him and he wont dive out the way, accomplishes nothing, loses a hand. Deals with it with aplomb, but thats about it. Meanwhile, team CadsuaneIsAwesome shields Semirhage (likely Cadsuane herself, although this is unclear, I suppose it could have been Nynaeve), kills a few damae, and takes the rest captive. Rand is the only casualty on team light.

Net result: Rand is passive, wounded, and fails in an objective once again. Cadsuane saves the day.

 

It doesnt feel like Rand is driving any of the plot anymore. Well, he drives the plot negatively through his choices, and Cadsuane drives the actions by solving all of the problems, or being the answer ot all problems.. The funny thing is that every time, each event has sufficient foundation... it doesnt come out of nowhere, the stuff is way too well written for that. RJ was masterful in supporting each event both within the interal logic of the world and through the narrative. But put it all together, it starts to be problematic for me. I am starting to wonder why Cadsuane isnt the Dragon reborn, or how he lived this long without her. Its less fun to read. The balance we see in the ups and downs of other character's actions and interactions for either Rand or Cadsuane just arent there, and this happened for 5 books!

 

There are other example but this is too long, and I am not even going into Cadsuane's Rand specific plot protection, but that is more controversial, and much of it has been rehashed before.

 

As for the lack of failures, while I can't say with any certainty, I do imagine the Domination Band incident was part of RJ's notes.

 

I have long suspected the same thing. Given the opportunity, I would have expected and even more precipitous fall and other tribulations for Cadsuane than what Sanderson wrote, knowing how RJ developed his character arcs (If a character doest struggle, she doesnt grow). But it feels like to me at least, I got hammered over the head as to how effective she was in problem solving, and how badly she was needed... instead of really showing how her plan to "make Rand strong, not Hard" was going to work.

 

I cant believe I posted this much in criticism of the Author of my favorite series. I really do like 99.9% of this stuff!

[Darksmoon]

Personally I think Rand was cracking at this time. He was cracking under the strain of trying to save the world, avoid madness (which is setting in) and has been damaged by being in the box. He has Lews Therin's voice in his head and is trying to put the whole world together to face the DO at the Last Battle.

 

The strain of all this on a twenty year old is hard to bear. Look at everything he went through in books 1-5. He always won with help and was bailed out many times before.

 

Cadsuane is the voice of experience. She has lived for several hundred years and has a great amount of experience. She has simply learned how to 'win' where as Rand is still learning.

[thisguy]

I'd not say Rand was diminished to make Cadsuane look good. Cadsuane's arrival was shortly after the box incident which left Rand severely traumatized. Any analysis of his behavior needs to take that into consideration.

 

 

I agree - Rand should probably be the poster child for PTSD since TEotW, and things have only become worse since, with a psychotic break due at any minute due to Rand's mistreatment by Galina, and his thought process, as well as his decision making have become suspect at this time. I am taking about his impact and his actions becoming suprisingly ineffectual, and the net result.

 

 

A few examples

 

In ACoS Ch 36, at the Cairhein rebel camp, Cadsuane takes charge after the bubble of evil. There are good reasons for her to do so, and Rand has good reason to acquiese, so far so good... until Rand uses balefire to save somewon, Cadsuane admonishes and slaps him and Fain leaps in stabbing Rand in the side. Rand nearly dies, and a combination of Cadsuane, Samitsu and Flinn save him. He gives Cadsuane as much credit as the healers who did the bulk of the work. Heck, Samitsu dialog even notes that if Cadsuane hadnt acted, Rand may have died.

Net result: Cadsuane (and her attendants, + Flinn) save Rand, is a victor; rand is a follower, a passive victim, and is now indebted. I dont have a big problem with it. The hero isnt invicible, we have seen it before. And more importants it fits into one of RJ major themes: even when there is a Messiah figure, it still takes a Village to Save the Pattern

 

In the campaign against the Seachan, he pushes the assault past the point of reason at the foot of Ebou Dar, against Bashere and other's advice and despite his own cahnneling problems. Its a bad move, but its not the first time Rand has been unreasonable about these things. Disaster strikes only when Rand uses Callandor and he kills a great number of his own men (in addition to the enemy, but apparently he doesnt even get to know that, thus doubling Rand's failure in his own mind). But he didnt know that Callandor was unsafe for him to use. Why would it be, the incredibly powerful Sa-angreal for men that the Dragon reborn is linked with in prophesy? Nobody knows that! ... well, ALMOST nobody. There are 2 narrative ideas driving this sequence: first, the Dragon Reborn doesnt just win every battle because he is preordained, wisdom is required. And number 2, as a result, Cadsuane reveals how essential she is, knowing secrets that are essential to the Dragon REborns success.

Net reuslt Cadsuane appears knowledgable, Rand fails again, is careless. All full within the theme, I buy, it because RJ sells it so well, and it fits with all the well developed themes of power in the books.

 

NO 3, the Far Madding Debacle WH Ch 22. While I dislike the whole enterprise by Rand, I yield to RJ vison. Another poor decision by a mind deteriorating from madness and suspicion. Rand tracks Rochaid and Kisman, gets caught in an ambush anyway, but kills Rochaid (hey, a success!)... Kisman gets away because of the uber elite policing skills of the Far Madding watch (meh, no biggie). He fails to find the remainder three, while Cadsuane shows up and explains that your few certain, loyal asahman now have divided loyalties (at best?)... to Cadsuane's team of Aes sedai. Why? We still dont know (backmail is noted in WH Ch13 but the particulars are unknown - I am willing to give Cadsuane the benefit of the doubt that is reasonable justification, but it makes her a little more despicable). Just as Rand has an epiphany about his need for Cadsuane, his quarry appears. Another trap, which he springs, but its not the trap he expects, falling. Rand apparently cant fight Fain because of the wound in his side, but manages a draw. He is able to withdraw, but since his plan involved Nynaeve using the power, which is detected by the guardians, the watch shows up (Which would have been nice for him to know....) They are escaping on the rooftops, when Lan, Warder, Ninja, human weapon, the man who smuggled himself and Moraine into the stone of tear, basically slips and falls. Rand grabs him, gets off a classic line, then is pulled down off the roof and is knocked unconcious. Cadsuane's brilliant plan goes off without a hitch, and Rand is rescued.

Net result: Rand cant win for trying, and falls of a building to boot. Cadsuane gets her coonditions with Rand, ties all sorts of threads to Rand (Alanna as a Rand detector, his Ashamen bonded), and rescues him again

 

Last example

I do admit though that Rand was laughably unprepared for the Cleansing before Cadsuane and her entourage showed up in Far Madding. What exactly was the plan after Rand and Nynaeve started channeling through the Access Keys? Were Lan and Min going to hold off the Forsaken?

 

Agreed. While damaged, there was no indication that Rand had turned into a blithering idiot, but we are given no information. I suspect he would not have moved so quickly if team Cadsuane had not been so immediately available... perhaps in addition to Alivia, he would gate in Ashamen and sworn Aes Sedai, Narishma w/ Callendor (he did bring it along), IDK, RJ didnt mention it because it probably wasnt important. We never hear of it, making Rand look short sighted at best.

 

Here Rand is effective in ACTION at least, probably the only time it occurs in RJ books the two of them are together, prior to the emergence of Dark Rand.... but only because of the effective defense grid Cadsuane set up, far superior to anything we have seen before. Obviously Cadsuane and her experience, plus men & women linked teams, pluse multiple sets of weave breaking and one power detecting ter'angreal is going to be more loads more effective than anything Rand had planned, and given the relative lack of losses on team Light vs. a pack of chosen, this was the most effective channeling plan we have seen to date.

Net result: Rand is successful... but likely would have failed w/o Cadsuane. It was a great read, one of my favorite scenes in the book. It made me like Cadsuane even more.... but it was getting a little much.

 

One more (bear with me, didnt expect to write a critical analysis) big one:

The Treaty with TuonMirhage. Cadsuane prevents ambush by breaking the Mirror of Mists (or is it Illusion). Rand fails to grasp the source, is a sitting duck (literally, because Min is behind him and he wont dive out the way, accomplishes nothing, loses a hand. Deals with it with aplomb, but thats about it. Meanwhile, team CadsuaneIsAwesome shields Semirhage (likely Cadsuane herself, although this is unclear, I suppose it could have been Nynaeve), kills a few damae, and takes the rest captive. Rand is the only casualty on team light.

Net result: Rand is passive, wounded, and fails in an objective once again. Cadsuane saves the day.

 

It doesnt feel like Rand is driving any of the plot anymore. Well, he drives the plot negatively through his choices, and Cadsuane drives the actions by solving all of the problems, or being the answer ot all problems.. The funny thing is that every time, each event has sufficient foundation... it doesnt come out of nowhere, the stuff is way too well written for that. RJ was masterful in supporting each event both within the interal logic of the world and through the narrative. But put it all together, it starts to be problematic for me. I am starting to wonder why Cadsuane isnt the Dragon reborn, or how he lived this long without her. Its less fun to read. The balance we see in the ups and downs of other character's actions and interactions for either Rand or Cadsuane just arent there, and this happened for 5 books!

 

There are other example but this is too long, and I am not even going into Cadsuane's Rand specific plot protection, but that is more controversial, and much of it has been rehashed before.

 

As for the lack of failures, while I can't say with any certainty, I do imagine the Domination Band incident was part of RJ's notes.

 

I have long suspected the same thing. Given the opportunity, I would have expected and even more precipitous fall and other tribulations for Cadsuane than what Sanderson wrote, knowing how RJ developed his character arcs (If a character doest struggle, she doesnt grow). But it feels like to me at least, I got hammered over the head as to how effective she was in problem solving, and how badly she was needed... instead of really showing how her plan to "make Rand strong, not Hard" was going to work.

 

I cant believe I posted this much in criticism of the Author of my favorite series. I really do like 99.9% of this stuff!

Great bit - all of it, man. The only place I might disagree and agree with the OP is that Rand didn't think to take anybody else with him for protection. At this point, he knows what's out there, he knows that people will see the channeling for a bazillion miles away, he has enough of LTT's memories to know he's gonna need protection. He doesn't even ask Flinn, who is probably the person he trust most outside of his women and the original cast. No Maidens either. He could have had 10000 aiel surrounding him with WOs and a few Ashaman.

[Knivy]

 

Great bit - all of it, man. The only place I might disagree and agree with the OP is that Rand didn't think to take anybody else with him for protection. At this point, he knows what's out there, he knows that people will see the channeling for a bazillion miles away, he has enough of LTT's memories to know he's gonna need protection. He doesn't even ask Flinn, who is probably the person he trust most outside of his women and the original cast. No Maidens either. He could have had 10000 aiel surrounding him with WOs and a few Ashaman.

He doesnt ask anyone besides Nyn before, because he trusted Nyn. I dont doubt he would have had protection when he moved on the taint, even if Cads and Co. didnt show up. He didnt trust anyone not to be a spy or darkfriend, so he kept it secret as he wasnt ready to strike.

[thisguy]

Great bit - all of it, man. The only place I might disagree and agree with the OP is that Rand didn't think to take anybody else with him for protection. At this point, he knows what's out there, he knows that people will see the channeling for a bazillion miles away, he has enough of LTT's memories to know he's gonna need protection. He doesn't even ask Flinn, who is probably the person he trust most outside of his women and the original cast. No Maidens either. He could have had 10000 aiel surrounding him with WOs and a few Ashaman.

He doesnt ask anyone besides Nyn before, because he trusted Nyn. I dont doubt he would have had protection when he moved on the taint, even if Cads and Co. didnt show up. He didnt trust anyone not to be a spy or darkfriend, so he kept it secret as he wasnt ready to strike.

I get the trust thing, it just doesn't seem like a good plan to have no one guarding your back when you're occupied like that with a huge magic sign over your head.

[Knivy]

Great bit - all of it, man. The only place I might disagree and agree with the OP is that Rand didn't think to take anybody else with him for protection. At this point, he knows what's out there, he knows that people will see the channeling for a bazillion miles away, he has enough of LTT's memories to know he's gonna need protection. He doesn't even ask Flinn, who is probably the person he trust most outside of his women and the original cast. No Maidens either. He could have had 10000 aiel surrounding him with WOs and a few Ashaman.

He doesnt ask anyone besides Nyn before, because he trusted Nyn. I dont doubt he would have had protection when he moved on the taint, even if Cads and Co. didnt show up. He didnt trust anyone not to be a spy or darkfriend, so he kept it secret as he wasnt ready to strike.

I get the trust thing, it just doesn't seem like a good plan to have no one guarding your back when you're occupied like that with a huge magic sign over your head.

It isnt that he wont have anyone, its that he just hasn't brought them yet.

[thisguy]

Great bit - all of it, man. The only place I might disagree and agree with the OP is that Rand didn't think to take anybody else with him for protection. At this point, he knows what's out there, he knows that people will see the channeling for a bazillion miles away, he has enough of LTT's memories to know he's gonna need protection. He doesn't even ask Flinn, who is probably the person he trust most outside of his women and the original cast. No Maidens either. He could have had 10000 aiel surrounding him with WOs and a few Ashaman.

He doesnt ask anyone besides Nyn before, because he trusted Nyn. I dont doubt he would have had protection when he moved on the taint, even if Cads and Co. didnt show up. He didnt trust anyone not to be a spy or darkfriend, so he kept it secret as he wasnt ready to strike.

I get the trust thing, it just doesn't seem like a good plan to have no one guarding your back when you're occupied like that with a huge magic sign over your head.

It isnt that he wont have anyone, its that he just hasn't brought them yet.

You think he was going to go back and grab some people last minute? You could be right.

[Suttree]

Great bit - all of it, man. The only place I might disagree and agree with the OP is that Rand didn't think to take anybody else with him for protection. At this point, he knows what's out there, he knows that people will see the channeling for a bazillion miles away, he has enough of LTT's memories to know he's gonna need protection. He doesn't even ask Flinn, who is probably the person he trust most outside of his women and the original cast. No Maidens either. He could have had 10000 aiel surrounding him with WOs and a few Ashaman.

He doesnt ask anyone besides Nyn before, because he trusted Nyn. I dont doubt he would have had protection when he moved on the taint, even if Cads and Co. didnt show up. He didnt trust anyone not to be a spy or darkfriend, so he kept it secret as he wasnt ready to strike.

I get the trust thing, it just doesn't seem like a good plan to have no one guarding your back when you're occupied like that with a huge magic sign over your head.

It isnt that he wont have anyone, its that he just hasn't brought them yet.

 

?

 

We know he didn't have anyone. Cads had to organize the entire defense plan for him. Rand didn't seem to give it a second thought.

[thisguy]

Great bit - all of it, man. The only place I might disagree and agree with the OP is that Rand didn't think to take anybody else with him for protection. At this point, he knows what's out there, he knows that people will see the channeling for a bazillion miles away, he has enough of LTT's memories to know he's gonna need protection. He doesn't even ask Flinn, who is probably the person he trust most outside of his women and the original cast. No Maidens either. He could have had 10000 aiel surrounding him with WOs and a few Ashaman.

He doesnt ask anyone besides Nyn before, because he trusted Nyn. I dont doubt he would have had protection when he moved on the taint, even if Cads and Co. didnt show up. He didnt trust anyone not to be a spy or darkfriend, so he kept it secret as he wasnt ready to strike.

I get the trust thing, it just doesn't seem like a good plan to have no one guarding your back when you're occupied like that with a huge magic sign over your head.

It isnt that he wont have anyone, its that he just hasn't brought them yet.

 

?

 

We know he didn't have anyone. Cads had to organize the entire defense plan for him. Rand didn't seem to give it a second thought.

I think the knifemeister means that he was going to go pick up people last minute. I don't think there's an indication of that in the book, but who knows?

[Knivy]

Great bit - all of it, man. The only place I might disagree and agree with the OP is that Rand didn't think to take anybody else with him for protection. At this point, he knows what's out there, he knows that people will see the channeling for a bazillion miles away, he has enough of LTT's memories to know he's gonna need protection. He doesn't even ask Flinn, who is probably the person he trust most outside of his women and the original cast. No Maidens either. He could have had 10000 aiel surrounding him with WOs and a few Ashaman.

He doesnt ask anyone besides Nyn before, because he trusted Nyn. I dont doubt he would have had protection when he moved on the taint, even if Cads and Co. didnt show up. He didnt trust anyone not to be a spy or darkfriend, so he kept it secret as he wasnt ready to strike.

I get the trust thing, it just doesn't seem like a good plan to have no one guarding your back when you're occupied like that with a huge magic sign over your head.

It isnt that he wont have anyone, its that he just hasn't brought them yet.

 

?

 

We know he didn't have anyone. Cads had to organize the entire defense plan for him. Rand didn't seem to give it a second thought.

I think the knifemeister means that he was going to go pick up people last minute. I don't think there's an indication of that in the book, but who knows?

 

That is what I meant.

[Suttree]

That is what I meant.

 

Ahh my bad.

[Knivy]

That is what I meant.

 

Ahh my bad.

All good man :)

[GYLD]

I suppose it is a little unfair to criticize Rand's plan for the Cleansing without knowing more. It'd be easy enough to find the Aes Sedai sworn to him what with his bond to Alanna. Perhaps even use the CK to tie off a dome before Rand started the actual Cleansing. That would not be far off from the original intended use of the CK.

[thisguy]

I suppose it is a little unfair to criticize Rand's plan for the Cleansing without knowing more. It'd be easy enough to find the Aes Sedai sworn to him what with his bond to Alanna. Perhaps even use the CK to tie off a dome before Rand started the actual Cleansing. That would not be far off from the original intended use of the CK.

I agree. However, usually there's a mention of at least having a plan before attempting something. There's no indicator here. Not saying that Rand wouldn't have gathered some troops to watch his behind, just saying that it sort of plays into the OP's point that Rand is downplayed a bit to make Cadsuane look better.

[Damer Sedai]

I suppose it is a little unfair to criticize Rand's plan for the Cleansing without knowing more. It'd be easy enough to find the Aes Sedai sworn to him what with his bond to Alanna. Perhaps even use the CK to tie off a dome before Rand started the actual Cleansing. That would not be far off from the original intended use of the CK.

 

Good point about the CKs reported original purpose, I didn't remember that. Rand obviously had plans to bring Callandor for the cleansing, as he had hidden the sa'angreal with the CK access keys outside Far Madding (WH, Ch 35). So unless he wanted to use 2 sa'angreal himself during the great linking and one he knows now to be problematic, I would assume he had other plans for it, and the most logical seems for some other team to use in defense. But that would be our only hint, as far as I can tell.

 

1.) Rand is now stupid. between his encounters with Rahvin and Sammael, his well aware that channeling is a beacon that makes you a target, so while far more suspicious and possibly more irrational before, I dont think the text before supports this at all.

2.) to show that Cadsuane knows better. I know that seems like my thesis, but I doubt this was the primary purpose intentioned by the author.

3.) RJ didn't think it was worth mentioning all the maybes and what ifs - when RJ refers to these during the story, usually its to help flesh out a character, to drive plot, or other purpose. If he found none of these useful to the story he was going to tell, why waste pages? Rand's secrecy with his allies in conversation, and even from the reader in his POV chapters, has been a way to drive suspense since TSR and probably before. Prhaps it makes sense we didnt know his plans, in that context.

 

I suspect it was number 3

[TristanWebb]

The more I think about Cadsuane, the more I am convinced that her plan was doomed to fail from the start. It wasn't her fault, it was Min's. Cadsuane thought that by treating Rand differently from everyone else, by treating him like a little boy and keeping her knowlege to herself she would make him want her to be around to guide him, not realising that the only reason she was allowed to stay near him at all was Min forcing him to keep her.

 

Now I'm not saying that she wouldn't of come up with a different plan that would of worked if she knew, I am saying that she thought her plan was working when it wasn't because she thought that Rand wanted her advice on it's own merits rather than because Min told him it was important that she stay close. It wasn't until she was exiled that she came up with something that even close to worked and that backfired on her as well.

[Luckers]

Okay, there are currently three threads active on the first page on this, so I'm locking two of them.

 

I know, I know. Luckers locking a Cadsuane thread. *sigh*. But seriously, no ones in trouble, and you're more than welcome to transfer posts, but three is just too many.