Mat's Luck

[EmperorAllspice]

Okay, the Pattern is difficult enough for me to wrap my head around, but what is up with Mat's luck? This isn't from an in-universe standpoint, I understand it perfectly fine, this is from a story structure standpoint. It just feels like such a covenient thing for a character to have. How are the villains meant to fight someone with superhuman luck? I get that his luck reverses and becomes bad at certain points, but that's not controlled by the actions of Mat or his opponents, it's a trait that's completely at the whim of the author, and I'm not so sure that's a good idea. If there's one thing that irks me in stories, it's a plot made of contrivances. Where the only reason anyone fails or succeeds is due to luck.

 

... If any of that made sense...

[Zorlon]

If there's one thing that irks me in stories, it's a plot made of contrivances. Where the only reason anyone fails or succeeds is due to luck.

 

... If any of that made sense...

The whole WoT is nothing but plot contrivances.

 

Nynaeve healing stilling despite no one in the AoL coming close. The wonder girls unlocking the secret of cuendilar and ter'angreals in their spare time despite no one being able to duplicate them for 3000 years. Rand, with no training to speak of and far less than his full strength, being able to go toe to toe with various Forsaken and come out on top. Rand beating a Blademaster after a few weeks training with the sword.

 

Mat's luck at least has some unexplained reason behind it, so I'm surprised see it bothers you more than the rest of the series.

 

I had the opposite reaction, Mat's luck power is easier on my Suspension of Disbelief than the, IMO, equally astounding luck of the other main characters. And at least there's a limit to how far Mat's goes.

[EmperorAllspice]

It bugs me because it's explained, actually. If it was just plain old ordinary contrivance, then I could blame sub standard writing. If it's intentional, then that means Robert meant for the contrivances to be compelling.

[Orderofolde]

It bugs me because it's explained, actually. If it was just plain old ordinary contrivance, then I could blame sub standard writing. If it's intentional, then that means Robert meant for the contrivances to be compelling.

I thought that the whole point was that they were Taveren, and the pattern guides them in helping to right itself. We see chance suspended with arrows hitting arms or veering to tug at a coat sleeve many times from our POV's of the main three. We also see the other side of their Taveren twisting. It isn't all fun, not living with the fact that while a baby survived a long fall, a man tripped on a cobblestone and died by breaking his neck. Knowing that that was the price paid is kinda sobering. I wonder if people caught on to Dark Rand's twisting being all negative and no good to counterbalance after a while. As to the Blademaster, your mightiest warriors throughout history seem to fall to farmers or shepherds with little more than a sling or a hayfork. Their downfall is in their arrogance and disappointment that their opponent is beneath their time and skill. Rather than moving for a quick kill they relish the sport and draw it out, testing and feinting to get a measure of one's skill. RJ modeled a lot of his swordplay and even his swords and weapons off Japanese weapons and forms. Fast strikes with the ultimate goal of killing your opponent quickly to preserve strength. After all, most battles aren't done with after killing only one man.

[EmperorAllspice]

It bugs me because it's explained, actually. If it was just plain old ordinary contrivance, then I could blame sub standard writing. If it's intentional, then that means Robert meant for the contrivances to be compelling.

I thought that the whole point was that they were Taveren, and the pattern guides them in helping to right itself. We see chance suspended with arrows hitting arms or veering to tug at a coat sleeve many times from our POV's of the main three. We also see the other side of their Taveren twisting. It isn't all fun, not living with the fact that while a baby survived a long fall, a man tripped on a cobblestone and died by breaking his neck. Knowing that that was the price paid is kinda sobering. I wonder if people caught on to Dark Rand's twisting being all negative and no good to counterbalance after a while. As to the Blademaster, your mightiest warriors throughout history seem to fall to farmers or shepherds with little more than a sling or a hayfork. Their downfall is in their arrogance and disappointment that their opponent is beneath their time and skill. Rather than moving for a quick kill they relish the sport and draw it out, testing and feinting to get a measure of one's skill. RJ modeled a lot of his swordplay and even his swords and weapons off Japanese weapons and forms. Fast strikes with the ultimate goal of killing your opponent quickly to preserve strength. After all, most battles aren't done with after killing only one man.

 

The issue is in the villains. How can a villain be a competent threat if they're basically at the mercy of the Ta'veren's luck all the time. If they catch Mat while he's in good luck mode, there's not a whole lot they can do.

[GYLD]

For all of Mat's luck, it did not save him from being blasted by Rahvin's lightning.

[FarShainMael]

For all of Mat's luck, it did not save him from being blasted by Rahvin's lightning.

 

Good catch, that. How did Mat's luck fail him so spectacularly? And if it was not a failure, how could a death - even a temporary one courtesy of balefire - be lucky?

 

My immediate thought is the Horn. Did that death in fact unlink him? If so, what's unlucky about being the Hornsounder?

 

Or, since the Aelfinn knew it was going to happen - was that death part of their price for the knowledge they gave him?

[Vardar]

It bugs me because it's explained, actually. If it was just plain old ordinary contrivance, then I could blame sub standard writing. If it's intentional, then that means Robert meant for the contrivances to be compelling.

I thought that the whole point was that they were Taveren, and the pattern guides them in helping to right itself. We see chance suspended with arrows hitting arms or veering to tug at a coat sleeve many times from our POV's of the main three. We also see the other side of their Taveren twisting. It isn't all fun, not living with the fact that while a baby survived a long fall, a man tripped on a cobblestone and died by breaking his neck. Knowing that that was the price paid is kinda sobering. I wonder if people caught on to Dark Rand's twisting being all negative and no good to counterbalance after a while. As to the Blademaster, your mightiest warriors throughout history seem to fall to farmers or shepherds with little more than a sling or a hayfork. Their downfall is in their arrogance and disappointment that their opponent is beneath their time and skill. Rather than moving for a quick kill they relish the sport and draw it out, testing and feinting to get a measure of one's skill. RJ modeled a lot of his swordplay and even his swords and weapons off Japanese weapons and forms. Fast strikes with the ultimate goal of killing your opponent quickly to preserve strength. After all, most battles aren't done with after killing only one man.

 

The issue is in the villains. How can a villain be a competent threat if they're basically at the mercy of the Ta'veren's luck all the time. If they catch Mat while he's in good luck mode, there's not a whole lot they can do.

 

Because they're aware of it, and they work extra hard against it. Remember, even with luck, or Ta'Veren twists, they can only affect things that are possible. Eventually you reach a point where something like surviving becomes impossible, so you stack the odds against the other side, that's what a competent threat would do.

 

Like when they sent Aiel after Mat. 1 Aiel is equal to any 2 warriors outside the dragonwall right? So you want to kill a lucky Ta'Veren, you send a dozen Aiel. Ok, stack the odds more, you send a dozen in by gateway so they enter right in his tent. Keep stacking the odds! If they would going after a regular person they would have sent 2.

 

It nearly worked.

 

You make it seem like it's impossible to stop it and they should just give up. And yea Gyld is right, he can be killed (He kinda was)

[Vardar]

For all of Mat's luck, it did not save him from being blasted by Rahvin's lightning.

 

Good catch, that. How did Mat's luck fail him so spectacularly? And if it was not a failure, how could a death - even a temporary one courtesy of balefire - be lucky?

 

My immediate thought is the Horn. Did that death in fact unlink him? If so, what's unlucky about being the Hornsounder?

 

Or, since the Aelfinn knew it was going to happen - was that death part of their price for the knowledge they gave him?

 

If Balefire is outside the pattern, I don't think people who read the future can account for it, or in other words I don't think they knew.

[FarShainMael]

Wasn't there something in ToM about Graendal realising how difficult it was to kill a ta'veren? Can't find the ref atm.

[EmperorAllspice]

The nature of Ta'veren luck still eludes me. Maybe I'm not far enough into it, but I always had the feeling that if Mat were fighting against loads of enemies, then one might accidentally strike a specific foundation and cause the entire cieling that isn't above Mat to collapse on all of them

[Vardar]

The nature of Ta'veren luck still eludes me. Maybe I'm not far enough into it, but I always had the feeling that if Mat were fighting against loads of enemies, then one might accidentally strike a specific foundation and cause the entire cieling that isn't above Mat to collapse on all of them

 

Ok, Ta'Veren can only cause to happen, something that is in theory possible. While people make jokes about things like you describe happening, it's not likely. Odds are instead he would have never gotten himself in that situation, or an army would come save him instead. although Mat's is more powerful than normal, because that's his psuedo super power.

 

@Far yea I think you're right

[Clouded]

I always like the idea of Mat's luck. It's a unique power that I've not seen before.

 

It fits very with the theme that Mat is the Joker, the Wild Card, in Wheel of Time. Linda, at 13Depository explains it wonderfully. Mat is always changing to fit the circumstances he is in. Mat is wild and unpredictable. Him having luck bend his way just fits so perfectly.

[EmperorAllspice]

Actually, where does his luck come from. Rand is a channeler. Perrin is a Wolfbrother. Both of those things existed outside of Ta'veren at one point.

 

Was superhuman luck ever a thing in the age of legends? XD

[Vardar]

Actually, where does his luck come from. Rand is a channeler. Perrin is a Wolfbrother. Both of those things existed outside of Ta'veren at one point.

 

Was superhuman luck ever a thing in the age of legends? XD

 

Some things are new, others are old things born again.

 

We know studies have been done in the past on Luck, and Luck is a force in their world, since theres a Ter'Angreal that suspends luck.

[FarShainMael]

For all of Mat's luck, it did not save him from being blasted by Rahvin's lightning.

 

Good catch, that. How did Mat's luck fail him so spectacularly? And if it was not a failure, how could a death - even a temporary one courtesy of balefire - be lucky?

 

My immediate thought is the Horn. Did that death in fact unlink him? If so, what's unlucky about being the Hornsounder?

 

Or, since the Aelfinn knew it was going to happen - was that death part of their price for the knowledge they gave him?

 

If Balefire is outside the pattern, I don't think people who read the future can account for it, or in other words I don't think they knew.

 

And that's the problem - the Aelfinn did know! From EncWoT:

When Mat demands to know his fate, the Aelfinn continue, "To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons! To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was! To give up half the light of the world to save the world! Go to Rhuidean, son of battles! Go to Rhuidean, trickster! Go, gambler! Go!"

 

Or did you mean they didn't know about balefire?

[EmperorAllspice]

Actually, where does his luck come from. Rand is a channeler. Perrin is a Wolfbrother. Both of those things existed outside of Ta'veren at one point.

 

Was superhuman luck ever a thing in the age of legends? XD

 

Some things are new, others are old things born again.

 

We know studies have been done in the past on Luck, and Luck is a force in their world, since theres a Ter'Angreal that suspends luck.

 

There is? Damn, someone needs to slap that on Mat pronto XP

[Vardar]

For all of Mat's luck, it did not save him from being blasted by Rahvin's lightning.

 

Good catch, that. How did Mat's luck fail him so spectacularly? And if it was not a failure, how could a death - even a temporary one courtesy of balefire - be lucky?

 

My immediate thought is the Horn. Did that death in fact unlink him? If so, what's unlucky about being the Hornsounder?

 

Or, since the Aelfinn knew it was going to happen - was that death part of their price for the knowledge they gave him?

 

If Balefire is outside the pattern, I don't think people who read the future can account for it, or in other words I don't think they knew.

 

And that's the problem - the Aelfinn did know! From EncWoT:

When Mat demands to know his fate, the Aelfinn continue, "To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons! To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was! To give up half the light of the world to save the world! Go to Rhuidean, son of battles! Go to Rhuidean, trickster! Go, gambler! Go!"

 

Or did you mean they didn't know about balefire?

 

IDK. RJ confirmed that the BF incident fufilled that part of the prophecy, however he also confirmed that Mat didn't technically die, since BF made the attack never happen. It's all rather confusing.

 

Maybe they saw that someone would think he was dead, and yet he would live?

 

Actually, where does his luck come from. Rand is a channeler. Perrin is a Wolfbrother. Both of those things existed outside of Ta'veren at one point.

 

Was superhuman luck ever a thing in the age of legends? XD

 

Some things are new, others are old things born again.

 

We know studies have been done in the past on Luck, and Luck is a force in their world, since theres a Ter'Angreal that suspends luck.

 

There is? Damn, someone needs to slap that on Mat pronto XP

 

Yea there's a thread about what would happen if Mat went up against the Dice. I say Mat would win, or the world would end.

[EmperorAllspice]

There's the phrase "the Dark One's own luck"

 

Is that just a phrase, or is the Dark One actually really lucky?

[Vardar]

There's the phrase "the Dark One's own luck"

 

Is that just a phrase, or is the Dark One actually really lucky?

 

It's a phrase. Like here people are wont to say, that guy is lucky as hell. It doesn't mean hell or being in hell is lucky. It's just a phrase people use.

[Agitel]

There's the phrase "the Dark One's own luck"

 

Is that just a phrase, or is the Dark One actually really lucky?

 

It's a phrase. Like here people are wont to say, that guy is lucky as hell. It doesn't mean hell or being in hell is lucky. It's just a phrase people use.

 

I assumed it's based in the Dark One actually taking a hand in things, while the Creator doesn't. It's like saying that he "must have made a deal with the devil" or something.

[Vardar]

There's the phrase "the Dark One's own luck"

 

Is that just a phrase, or is the Dark One actually really lucky?

 

It's a phrase. Like here people are wont to say, that guy is lucky as hell. It doesn't mean hell or being in hell is lucky. It's just a phrase people use.

 

I assumed it's based in the Dark One actually taking a hand in things, while the Creator doesn't. It's like saying that he "must have made a deal with the devil" or something.

 

Do we have any evidence of it? (Not being smart, asking a serious question) I don't think we do. I'm pretty sure its just a phrase.

 

Human beings hate being thwarted. Evil humans do whatever they like, with no conscience right? So, if 2 people are both in the same business, one tries to do right, the other doesn't care who he screws over, the noncaring guy will probably do better. People tend to connect evil and success with being lucky, when in reality it's just by caring you screw yourself over. However sticking to your guns and beliefs is worth it to you, so you're the real winner.

 

It's a hard concept to express via text. I hope that made sense. :(

[Agitel]

There's the phrase "the Dark One's own luck"

 

Is that just a phrase, or is the Dark One actually really lucky?

 

It's a phrase. Like here people are wont to say, that guy is lucky as hell. It doesn't mean hell or being in hell is lucky. It's just a phrase people use.

 

I assumed it's based in the Dark One actually taking a hand in things, while the Creator doesn't. It's like saying that he "must have made a deal with the devil" or something.

 

Do we have any evidence of it? (Not being smart, asking a serious question) I don't think we do. I'm pretty sure its just a phrase.

 

Human beings hate being thwarted. Evil humans do whatever they like, with no conscience right? So, if 2 people are both in the same business, one tries to do right, the other doesn't care who he screws over, the noncaring guy will probably do better. People tend to connect evil and success with being lucky, when in reality it's just by caring you screw yourself over. However sticking to your guns and beliefs is worth it to you, so you're the real winner.

 

It's a hard concept to express via text. I hope that made sense. :(

 

Yeah... it's just a phrase, like "he must have made a deal with the devil."

 

And yes, we have plenty of evidence that, in the metaphysics of this world, the Dark One tries to take a hand in molding reality while the Creator "takes no part", that the Dark One makes promises of of glory and immortality to those who swear themselves to him, while the Wheel and reality is considered neutral and unbiased in the odds. Either way it fits. We can't really make a call on whether it's the "true" origin of the phrase, of course.

[Vardar]

There's the phrase "the Dark One's own luck"

 

Is that just a phrase, or is the Dark One actually really lucky?

 

It's a phrase. Like here people are wont to say, that guy is lucky as hell. It doesn't mean hell or being in hell is lucky. It's just a phrase people use.

 

I assumed it's based in the Dark One actually taking a hand in things, while the Creator doesn't. It's like saying that he "must have made a deal with the devil" or something.

 

Do we have any evidence of it? (Not being smart, asking a serious question) I don't think we do. I'm pretty sure its just a phrase.

 

Human beings hate being thwarted. Evil humans do whatever they like, with no conscience right? So, if 2 people are both in the same business, one tries to do right, the other doesn't care who he screws over, the noncaring guy will probably do better. People tend to connect evil and success with being lucky, when in reality it's just by caring you screw yourself over. However sticking to your guns and beliefs is worth it to you, so you're the real winner.

 

It's a hard concept to express via text. I hope that made sense. :(

 

Yeah... it's just a phrase, like "he must have made a deal with the devil."

 

And yes, we have plenty of evidence that, in the metaphysics of this world, the Dark One tries to take a hand in molding reality while the Creator "takes no part", that the Dark One makes promises of of glory and immortality to those who swear themselves to him, while the Wheel and reality is considered neutral and unbiased in the odds. Either way it fits. We can't really make a call on whether it's the "true" origin of the phrase, of course.

 

Well yea he tries, but I mean do we have any evidence that his offered immorality was more than a Lie? I think SH is the closest we see to him doing something himself, everthing else the DO manages to do, is him speaking to people and they doing stuff or the TP.

[EmperorAllspice]

Aren't the bubbles of evil the Dark One affecting the world?