Rand vs Cadsuane

[thisguy]

Sitting in the Sun Palace and thirsty, Rand asks a maiden if she'd have someone send in some tea.

 

Engrossed in a translation of the Karaethon Cycle, Rand does not look up when a steaming cup is put on the table in front of him. Without taking his eyes from the book, he reaches out grabs the cup and takes a big sip. "Ugh... minty.... I didn't ask for mint tea!!!!" Rand yells, the air blackening and bending in an odd way around him.

Looking up, he sees it was Jahar. Who set the tea down. Behind him stands 20 maidens and behind them Cadsuane.

"What is the meaning of this Jahar?!!!!! Why are you serving me tea?!!!!!? Mint Tea!!! Blood and bloody ashes!!!"

Jahar replies, "Ah, temper, temper, man."

Rand flies into a rage and reaches for saidan to burn Jahar to cinders, but when he cannot touch the source.

Giving Jahar a questioning look, Jahar says, "You've got to learn some manners, man."

"Really, Jahar?" Rand asks. "Bros before hos?"

"Sorry, bro. I'm whipped and my girl follows Cadsuane and all. You know how it is."

Within moments Rand is being soundly beaten by Jahar and 20 maidens who yell, "We carry your honor Rand Al'Thor, you promised. You left the toilet seat up again."

Cadsuane watches shaking her head.

[Suttree]

LTT, unlike the forsaken, never stopped being AS, therefore he is the only true AS left alive. He doesn't have to join the WT, he was around before them.

 

Wouldn't you say LTT dying stops him being AS? Of course Rand is an extreme example but as Birgitte says she has "no right" to her past memories and they disappear as the pattern weaves her back in. What happens if the memories fade? For instance I wouldn't say Mat is the King of Manetheren even though he seems to have memories from Aemon. It's an interesting question actually.

[b3arz3rg3r]

LTT, unlike the forsaken, never stopped being AS, therefore he is the only true AS left alive. He doesn't have to join the WT, he was around before them.

 

Wouldn't you say LTT dying stops him being AS? Of course Rand is an extreme example but as Birgitte says she has "no right" to her past memories and they disappear as the pattern weaves her back in. What happens if the memories fade? For instance I wouldn't say Mat is the King of Manetheren even though he seems to have memories from Aemon. It's an interesting question actually.

 

Like you said Rand is an extreme case. Unlike Mat he has all of his old life's memories and unlike Birgitte he does have a right to his past memories, pretty much everything he suffered through these last two years were payment for those memories.

[Vardar]

LTT, unlike the forsaken, never stopped being AS, therefore he is the only true AS left alive. He doesn't have to join the WT, he was around before them.

 

Wouldn't you say LTT dying stops him being AS? Of course Rand is an extreme example but as Birgitte says she has "no right" to her past memories and they disappear as the pattern weaves her back in. What happens if the memories fade? For instance I wouldn't say Mat is the King of Manetheren even though he seems to have memories from Aemon. It's an interesting question actually.

 

That country doesn't exist anymore. Hard to argue that one. Bridgette doesn't have a right to them, Rand does. Like someone up top says,

 

What makes a person? Is the Body what made him AS? Or his personality, experiences and skill? If it's the former, ok then. If it's the latter, then he's still the only living AS.

[Suttree]

LTT, unlike the forsaken, never stopped being AS, therefore he is the only true AS left alive. He doesn't have to join the WT, he was around before them.

 

Wouldn't you say LTT dying stops him being AS? Of course Rand is an extreme example but as Birgitte says she has "no right" to her past memories and they disappear as the pattern weaves her back in. What happens if the memories fade? For instance I wouldn't say Mat is the King of Manetheren even though he seems to have memories from Aemon. It's an interesting question actually.

 

That country doesn't exist anymore. Hard to argue that one. Bridgette doesn't have a right to them, Rand does. Like someone up top says,

 

You could say the Two Rivers is to Manetheren as the WT is to the AoL AS ;) I'm just wondering what happens if the LTT experiences fade as Rand lives on. The other memories from DM already have. What if the others start to go as well?

[b3arz3rg3r]

LTT, unlike the forsaken, never stopped being AS, therefore he is the only true AS left alive. He doesn't have to join the WT, he was around before them.

 

Wouldn't you say LTT dying stops him being AS? Of course Rand is an extreme example but as Birgitte says she has "no right" to her past memories and they disappear as the pattern weaves her back in. What happens if the memories fade? For instance I wouldn't say Mat is the King of Manetheren even though he seems to have memories from Aemon. It's an interesting question actually.

 

That country doesn't exist anymore. Hard to argue that one. Bridgette doesn't have a right to them, Rand does. Like someone up top says,

 

You could say the Two Rivers is to Manetheren as the WT is to the AoL AS ;) I'm just wondering what happens if the LTT experiences fade as Rand lives on. The other memories from DM already have. What if the others start to go as well?

 

Your inflection is a bit off. The other memories he glimpsed at DM never stuck. He saw them for a brief moment and then they were gone almost completely, LTT is the only life Rand remembers in depth. Also what happened to Birgitte is completely different from what happened to Rand.

[Suttree]

LTT, unlike the forsaken, never stopped being AS, therefore he is the only true AS left alive. He doesn't have to join the WT, he was around before them.

 

Wouldn't you say LTT dying stops him being AS? Of course Rand is an extreme example but as Birgitte says she has "no right" to her past memories and they disappear as the pattern weaves her back in. What happens if the memories fade? For instance I wouldn't say Mat is the King of Manetheren even though he seems to have memories from Aemon. It's an interesting question actually.

 

That country doesn't exist anymore. Hard to argue that one. Bridgette doesn't have a right to them, Rand does. Like someone up top says,

 

You could say the Two Rivers is to Manetheren as the WT is to the AoL AS ;) I'm just wondering what happens if the LTT experiences fade as Rand lives on. The other memories from DM already have. What if the others start to go as well?

 

Your inflection is a bit off. The other memories he glimpsed at DM never stuck. He saw them for a brief moment and then they were gone almost completely, LTT is the only life Rand remembers in depth. Also what happened to Birgitte is completely different from what happened to Rand.

 

I have never said they were the same but it is the only comparison we have to go off. In addition I am not saying it "will" happen, I am asking what if it "does"? We know in the course of a normal life you don't have access to past life memories. What happens if he losses the memories which could happen in any number of ways moving forward.

[Vardar]

LTT, unlike the forsaken, never stopped being AS, therefore he is the only true AS left alive. He doesn't have to join the WT, he was around before them.

 

Wouldn't you say LTT dying stops him being AS? Of course Rand is an extreme example but as Birgitte says she has "no right" to her past memories and they disappear as the pattern weaves her back in. What happens if the memories fade? For instance I wouldn't say Mat is the King of Manetheren even though he seems to have memories from Aemon. It's an interesting question actually.

 

That country doesn't exist anymore. Hard to argue that one. Bridgette doesn't have a right to them, Rand does. Like someone up top says,

 

You could say the Two Rivers is to Manetheren as the WT is to the AoL AS ;) I'm just wondering what happens if the LTT experiences fade as Rand lives on. The other memories from DM already have. What if the others start to go as well?

 

Not sure if they would fade. He's said it, he is LTT/Rand. I mean, it's kinda hard to argue unless you're claiming he's going to become something different?

[Knivy]

LTT, unlike the forsaken, never stopped being AS, therefore he is the only true AS left alive. He doesn't have to join the WT, he was around before them.

 

Wouldn't you say LTT dying stops him being AS? Of course Rand is an extreme example but as Birgitte says she has "no right" to her past memories and they disappear as the pattern weaves her back in. What happens if the memories fade? For instance I wouldn't say Mat is the King of Manetheren even though he seems to have memories from Aemon. It's an interesting question actually.

The difference between Mat and Rand is that Mat's memories are from different people, different souls, while LTT is Rand. Birgette was ripped out of TAR, while Rand was granted the memories by the pattern? The Creator? Meditation? Medication?

[Suttree]

LTT, unlike the forsaken, never stopped being AS, therefore he is the only true AS left alive. He doesn't have to join the WT, he was around before them.

 

Wouldn't you say LTT dying stops him being AS? Of course Rand is an extreme example but as Birgitte says she has "no right" to her past memories and they disappear as the pattern weaves her back in. What happens if the memories fade? For instance I wouldn't say Mat is the King of Manetheren even though he seems to have memories from Aemon. It's an interesting question actually.

The difference between Mat and Rand is that Mat's memories are from different people, different souls, while LTT is Rand. Birgette was ripped out of TAR, while Rand was granted the memories by the pattern? The Creator? Meditation? Medication?

 

Nope the Aemon memory appears to come from Mat's previous life. It was before his trip to the Finns.

[Knivy]

Wait, he has memories from before?

I dont remember actual memories, I just thought it was old tongue spouted about sometimes...

I could be wrong though...

[Vardar]

LTT, unlike the forsaken, never stopped being AS, therefore he is the only true AS left alive. He doesn't have to join the WT, he was around before them.

 

Wouldn't you say LTT dying stops him being AS? Of course Rand is an extreme example but as Birgitte says she has "no right" to her past memories and they disappear as the pattern weaves her back in. What happens if the memories fade? For instance I wouldn't say Mat is the King of Manetheren even though he seems to have memories from Aemon. It's an interesting question actually.

The difference between Mat and Rand is that Mat's memories are from different people, different souls, while LTT is Rand. Birgette was ripped out of TAR, while Rand was granted the memories by the pattern? The Creator? Meditation? Medication?

 

Nope the Aemon memory appears to come from Mat's previous life. It was before his trip to the Finns.

 

But the kingdom ceased to exist.

 

Now, if you wanted to argue that he had the right to refound the kingdom, ok I'd be ok with that.

[Suttree]

LTT, unlike the forsaken, never stopped being AS, therefore he is the only true AS left alive. He doesn't have to join the WT, he was around before them.

 

Wouldn't you say LTT dying stops him being AS? Of course Rand is an extreme example but as Birgitte says she has "no right" to her past memories and they disappear as the pattern weaves her back in. What happens if the memories fade? For instance I wouldn't say Mat is the King of Manetheren even though he seems to have memories from Aemon. It's an interesting question actually.

The difference between Mat and Rand is that Mat's memories are from different people, different souls, while LTT is Rand. Birgette was ripped out of TAR, while Rand was granted the memories by the pattern? The Creator? Meditation? Medication?

 

Nope the Aemon memory appears to come from Mat's previous life. It was before his trip to the Finns.

 

But the kingdom ceased to exist.

 

Now, if you wanted to argue that he had the right to refound the kingdom, ok I'd be ok with that.

 

Just as the AoL AS instiution has ceased to exist. The WT and it's Ajah heirarchy is different. I'm not truly making the argument but again you could say in a way that the 2 Rivers is to Manetheren as the AoL AS is to the WT.

[MasterAblar]

Wouldn't you say LTT dying stops him being AS? Of course Rand is an extreme example but as Birgitte says she has "no right" to her past memories and they disappear as the pattern weaves her back in. What happens if the memories fade? For instance I wouldn't say Mat is the King of Manetheren even though he seems to have memories from Aemon. It's an interesting question actually.

 

The problem with Rand is that he has more than just LTT memories. He has all his feelings. The same can't be said for Mat and Aemon. Mat may have his memories (and only a few of them at that) but they have no personal significance to him. Whereas all LTT's feelings towards his wife, his family, his friends, his enemies and all the experiences he had in his life, Rand now has as well. And it was those feelings, specifically guilt, that led him to push away LTT, leading to the voice. If Rand had been fully intergrated with LTT from his birth it would have been far simpler (as well as extremely disturbing. He would be a baby with all the experiences of a 400 year old man), since his life as Rand would have simply been a continuation of his life as LTT. But because he lived 20 years before intergrating, he's a hybrid neither completely Rand nor completely LTT.

 

His case is also different of Birgitte because what happened to him was meant to happen. It was acording to the patterns plan. Birgitte on the other hand is living a life she never should have, with memories she should not have in this life. I would find it very odd that Rand has no right to his memories as LTT when the pattern itself is handing them to him.

 

I don't think a position as King can really be compared to that of an AS. A King needs land and people. Without a country he's the ruler of nothing. Not to mention the Mat/Aemon relation isn't the same as the Rand/LTT one. Does an AS need his organization to have the title? I don't think so personally. During the breaking the AS organization of the AoL ceased to exist, and yet the women who survived surely still called themselves AS even before they founded the WT. They didn't need their organization to keep their claim to their name. And seeing as the WT and the Hall of Servants are seperate organizations I don't see that Rand needs to pass their tests. If an AS of the AoL popped back up in the Third Age (maybe he was stuffed in a stasis box), I would consider him AS.

 

The real problem is that Rand is not just LTT, he's more than that. So does he really have a claim to the title? He's certainly an AS in spirit. He claims to be the same person, he says it straight out in VoG. I think it really depends on how much he has become LTT. If he's 90% LTT, and all he's missing is the body, than really you might as well give him the title. Aginor was still Aginor and was still the same Forsaken, even as Osangar. He just had a new body and a new name. Of course, the extent to which Rand has become LTT is pretty much impossible to estimate, because not only do we not really know what LTT was like, but we've barely been in Rand's head at all since VoG. Still the fact that Rand claims that he and LTT are the same person and claims the title of AS is rather telling.

[Luckers]

Okay, there are currently three threads active on the first page on this, so I'm locking two of them.

 

I know, I know. Luckers locking a Cadsuane thread. *sigh*. But seriously, no ones in trouble, and you're more than welcome to transfer posts, but three is just too many.