Rand vs Cadsuane

[thisguy]

Brute force would matter because he could just drop a mountain on her.

And Cadsuane being blind would wait for the mountin to fall rather than escaping via Gateway?

 

He is at least 3 times more powerful than her without aid.

 

He's no such thing. He may be thrice as strong as Daigian, who's the weakest Aes Sedai. Rand is about twice as strong as Moiraine and Cadsuane is 60-65% of his strength.

 

Thrice as strong indeed!

Even if we went your way, a person 35% stronger than another person would always beat them arm wrestling. Where do you get your numbers from, by the way? Or, is this just your opinion?

 

 

There's a number chart out there. Women go 1 to 21, 21 being the max. Men go a few levels about that, so to 25 or 26. Rand is 25/26, Lanfear 21 (Til she was beat down) Cads being a 14. However I don't think it's a linear thing.

 

http://13depository....king.html#chart

 

Interesting read regardless.

Thanks, Vard. Much appreciated.

[Vardar]

Although I wondered why Rand/LTT knew what her net was, yet Lanfear had never heard of a Ter'Angreal that blocked channeling. I mean you would think it would have come up during the war. One of the first things.

 

While Paralis-Nets were around in the AoL they all served different functions based on what thy were for. The individual piece that disrupts weaves was invented during the breaking. It did not exist yet in the AoL

 

 

Oh I know, I'm just saying, if we were AS in the old days, on a council, Once some of our members went rogue and started attacking us Im pretty sure we'd have a few immediate needs.

 

1) More Angreal/San

2) A way to defend ourselves from rogue channelers.

 

And I'm pretty sure those would rank together. Why did it take until the breaking to come up with it? (Just thoughts)

[thisguy]

Brute force would matter because he could just drop a mountain on her.

And Cadsuane being blind would wait for the mountin to fall rather than escaping via Gateway?

 

He is at least 3 times more powerful than her without aid.

 

He's no such thing. He may be thrice as strong as Daigian, who's the weakest Aes Sedai. Rand is about twice as strong as Moiraine and Cadsuane is 60-65% of his strength.

 

Thrice as strong indeed!

Even if we went your way, a person 35% stronger than another person would always beat them arm wrestling. Where do you get your numbers from, by the way? Or, is this just your opinion?

 

 

There's a number chart out there. Women go 1 to 21, 21 being the max. Men go a few levels about that, so to 25 or 26. Rand is 25/26, Lanfear 21 (Til she was beat down) Cads being a 14. However I don't think it's a linear thing.

 

http://13depository....king.html#chart

 

Interesting read regardless.

Thanks, Vard. Much appreciated.

Well, she's weaker than Egwene and co and Rand tied two of the them up once, if I am remembering correctly.

[Kamin_Majere]

She has that Angreal too, which at her power level should make her stronger than him, so no shielding. And (Per quotes again) she has a well, which can be accessed while shielded, meaning he can't even shield her if he managed too.

 

I'm not saying Rand wouldn't win, I'm saying the way the books set Cads up is horrible. She should be GOD in this world.

 

She has an Angreal that makes her stronger than Rand? That is one powerful Angreal then, because Nyn is much stronger than her and as per her own statement could probably channel 1/2 of the amount the circle with the white wand could in the tower when they healed Mat (and its said to be the most powerful known for a woman) For her to have something that makes her not only stronger than Nyn but rand as well (who is even a few levels higher than that) I find that kinda unbelievable. Even Eggy with the White Wand probably was only at Nyn's level

 

And by her own words her well is much weaker than Nyn's and Nyn's cant really do that much before drained. Its a great Ace in the Hole for her, but i cant imagine it doing much to really tilt the scales

 

But yeah I agree with you, if this is her in truth then Cads is the creator and is only in this world to hrumph a lot and make a general annoyance of herself because she should have already won the last battle while Rand was still figuring out what was going on in book 2.

[Vardar]

Brute force would matter because he could just drop a mountain on her.

And Cadsuane being blind would wait for the mountin to fall rather than escaping via Gateway?

 

He is at least 3 times more powerful than her without aid.

 

He's no such thing. He may be thrice as strong as Daigian, who's the weakest Aes Sedai. Rand is about twice as strong as Moiraine and Cadsuane is 60-65% of his strength.

 

Thrice as strong indeed!

Even if we went your way, a person 35% stronger than another person would always beat them arm wrestling. Where do you get your numbers from, by the way? Or, is this just your opinion?

 

 

There's a number chart out there. Women go 1 to 21, 21 being the max. Men go a few levels about that, so to 25 or 26. Rand is 25/26, Lanfear 21 (Til she was beat down) Cads being a 14. However I don't think it's a linear thing.

 

http://13depository....king.html#chart

 

Interesting read regardless.

Thanks, Vard. Much appreciated.

Well, she's weaker than Egwene and co and Rand tied two of the them up once, if I am remembering correctly.

 

They hadn't met their max potential yet, plus they weren't holding sadiar. Shielding 2 14's isn't harder than shielding 1 21 since they're two different weaves (if that makes sense). With that angreal, she's pretty powerful.

 

Angreal/San add a set amount, they don't multiply. The issue is, we rarely get any indication of how powerful Angreal's are. We hear about some weak ones, some strong ones, but it rarely tells where they leave them. There are a few exceptions. A weak one Elayne had made her more powerful than Ny(So from a 15 to above an 18) . A strong one Moraine has at the end she said made her more powerful than she ever was. (So if she's a 2 now, that raised her 11+ levels).

 

so the question is, are the gaps between power levels constant. i.e. are you moving up 1000 power points (for lack of a better word) between levels. Since we can presume than an Angreal that moves you 4ish levels is considered relatively weak, or not exceptionally strong, and an really strong angreal would be 12ish (Or so)we can assume an average Angreal would be in the middle. So, 8-10. So Cad's Angreal, we have to assume it's average, makes her more powerful than Rand with 0 angreal, or more powerful than all the forsaken. (Which goes back to the why she's not laying waste)

 

Lol @ Kamin, I answered your question before you asked it, (you asked while I was typing it out and doing numbers)

 

If that is confusing let me know I'll try to expand upon it.

[Suttree]

Although I wondered why Rand/LTT knew what her net was, yet Lanfear had never heard of a Ter'Angreal that blocked channeling. I mean you would think it would have come up during the war. One of the first things.

 

While Paralis-Nets were around in the AoL they all served different functions based on what thy were for. The individual piece that disrupts weaves was invented during the breaking. It did not exist yet in the AoL

 

 

Oh I know, I'm just saying, if we were AS in the old days, on a council, Once some of our members went rogue and started attacking us Im pretty sure we'd have a few immediate needs.

 

1) More Angreal/San

2) A way to defend ourselves from rogue channelers.

 

And I'm pretty sure those would rank together. Why did it take until the breaking to come up with it? (Just thoughts)

 

One thing to keep in mind is almost immediately after the war began in earnest a good deal of the infrastructure was destroyed. Per RJ they no longer had the facilities or tools to mass produce items of power. They became exceedingly rare.

[MasterAblar]

She has that Angreal too, which at her power level should make her stronger than him, so no shielding. And (Per quotes again) she has a well, which can be accessed while shielded, meaning he can't even shield her if he managed too.

 

I'm not saying Rand wouldn't win, I'm saying the way the books set Cads up is horrible. She should be GOD in this world.

 

She has an Angreal that makes her stronger than Rand? That is one powerful Angreal then, because Nyn is much stronger than her and as per her own statement could probably channel 1/2 of the amount the circle with the white wand could in the tower when they healed Mat (and its said to be the most powerful known for a woman) For her to have something that makes her not only stronger than Nyn but rand as well (who is even a few levels higher than that) I find that kinda unbelievable. Even Eggy with the White Wand probably was only at Nyn's level

 

And by her own words her well is much weaker than Nyn's and Nyn's cant really do that much before drained. Its a great Ace in the Hole for her, but i cant imagine it doing much to really tilt the scales

 

But yeah I agree with you, if this is her in truth then Cads is the creator and is only in this world to hrumph a lot and make a general annoyance of herself because she should have already won the last battle while Rand was still figuring out what was going on in book 2.

 

Nyneave was wrong.

 

Nyneave's angreal is apparently much stronger than Cadsuane's so the shrike angreal Cadsuane has probably isn't particularly powerful.

[Kamin_Majere]

Lol @ Kamin, I answered your question before you asked it, (you asked while I was typing it out and doing numbers)

 

If that is confusing let me know I'll try to expand upon it.

 

You did indeed lol

But its still a very inconsistent thing. Again, Nyn could handle 1/2 the combined total of the Circle healing Mat that also contained the White Wand (supposedly the most powerful for a woman known) I believe the circle was made of 2 level 12's, a level 11 and 4 level 10's (i'm fuzzy on it but i remember it being 7 women, i'll have to look it up later to figure out who was actually in the circle)

 

But then you get Elyene with a weak Angreal that can now top Nyn somehow.

 

The whole thing is to inconsistent IMO

 

Nyneave was wrong.

about what? (just trying to figure out which point you are talking about because i know my posts can be hard to read at times)

[Vardar]

Although I wondered why Rand/LTT knew what her net was, yet Lanfear had never heard of a Ter'Angreal that blocked channeling. I mean you would think it would have come up during the war. One of the first things.

 

While Paralis-Nets were around in the AoL they all served different functions based on what thy were for. The individual piece that disrupts weaves was invented during the breaking. It did not exist yet in the AoL

 

 

Oh I know, I'm just saying, if we were AS in the old days, on a council, Once some of our members went rogue and started attacking us Im pretty sure we'd have a few immediate needs.

 

1) More Angreal/San

2) A way to defend ourselves from rogue channelers.

 

And I'm pretty sure those would rank together. Why did it take until the breaking to come up with it? (Just thoughts)

 

One thing to keep in mind is almost immediately after the war began in earnest a good deal of the infrastructure was destroyed. Per RJ they no longer had the facilities or tools to mass produce items of power. They became exceedingly rare.

 

Hmm. Interesting. It took facilities?

 

But not even mass producing, they could obviously still mass produce (As that's how Callendor got it's flaw, still odd to me) but the light side seemed to have the people who could make those things (the forsaken seem to bemoan the loss of that particular knowledge leaving me to believe the light side kept those people) so I'd think that would be the biggest project out there.

 

Nyneave was wrong.

 

Nyneave's angreal is apparently much stronger than Cadsuane's so the shrike angreal Cadsuane has probably isn't particularly powerful.

 

You have a quote for that? We know Ny's angreal is stronger of the 3 than Elayne found, the weak one being the 4ish level. Where did you get the Ny/Cads anrgeal comparrison from?

[Suttree]

Although I wondered why Rand/LTT knew what her net was, yet Lanfear had never heard of a Ter'Angreal that blocked channeling. I mean you would think it would have come up during the war. One of the first things.

 

While Paralis-Nets were around in the AoL they all served different functions based on what thy were for. The individual piece that disrupts weaves was invented during the breaking. It did not exist yet in the AoL

 

 

Oh I know, I'm just saying, if we were AS in the old days, on a council, Once some of our members went rogue and started attacking us Im pretty sure we'd have a few immediate needs.

 

1) More Angreal/San

2) A way to defend ourselves from rogue channelers.

 

And I'm pretty sure those would rank together. Why did it take until the breaking to come up with it? (Just thoughts)

 

One thing to keep in mind is almost immediately after the war began in earnest a good deal of the infrastructure was destroyed. Per RJ they no longer had the facilities or tools to mass produce items of power. They became exceedingly rare.

 

Hmm. Interesting. It took facilities?

 

But not even mass producing, they could obviously still mass produce (As that's how Callendor got it's flaw, still odd to me) but the light side seemed to have the people who could make those things (the forsaken seem to bemoan the loss of that particular knowledge leaving me to believe the light side kept those people) so I'd think that would be the biggest project out there.

 

Yeah dunno, it hit tech items too. We know for instance that by the sealing people were far more likely to ride horses and use swords than have a jo car or shock lance. For whatever reason it was invented during the breaking sepcifcially to combat male channelers going mad, another thing I just read is that it can even detect reversed weaves which is pretty nifty.

[Mr Ares]

Yes his taveren nature would be the difference. Without that though Cads w/her Paralis-Net would give him all he could handle. She has a version of Mat's medallion after all in her hair pieces. Rands first strike not working could be taken advantage of. For all that he would be better trained by far than the others channelers, she has taken down more men than any 20 other reds combined including Logain.

You can very certainly call me a Rand fanboy, and I no that you Suttree are a Cadsuane fanboy. Now i mean this to be taken seriously with out trying to pick a fight with you, but if cadsuane is the most powerful being on earth why doesnt she start takeing out the forsaken, or challenge the DO herself. Or if she is so interested in saving the world why was she in her retreat mode growing roses when she could have been out doing a service to the side of the light... It stands to reason that if she could beat rand so simpily she should take his place... I am getting angrey even typing about her i hate her that much.... but i have read everything that you have wrote and argued about cads looking for a flaw and trying to exploit it, your very thorough, but beyond all the facts and proof could your love for her and hate for rand be making her out to be just a little to powerful?

 

For the record, I've been saying that for months since I was told that one of her Terangral stops direct weaves totally. It makes 0 sense in the context of the book. I've asked about 10 people I know who read the stories, yet don't access the forums or RJ quotes and they all agree that not only does it make no sense, but it kinda ruins a part of the book for them.

 

Lanfear's surprise when she assaults Alvi shows that the forsaken knew of no such items as that, thus the very idea that she's not out and about slaying forsaken at will is crazy! (And now people run forward and say that the forsaken would recover quickly, however even a minor pause should be enough to allow Cads to destroy them utterly).

 

To this day, this still pisses me off more than anything about this series.

Firstly, you have the problem of finding the Chosen. Not all of them broadcast their whereabouts. Then you ave to deal with whatever guards and other forces they have. She can't just Travel into their countries, she has to do it the old fashioned way. Even if she was able to find and kill one or two, the others would rapidly become aware of the threat facing them and turn their attentions to destroying her. They have a lot more knowledge of the Power than she does, and experience of dealing with things like rival channelers trying to kill them. She has a few advantages, such as her ability to disrupt enemy weaving, but that by no means renders her a god, and capable of laying waste to the Chosen. It's your stance that makes no sense.

 

Brute force would matter because he could just drop a mountain on her.

 

That's how you see this going? Rand and Cads get into a one power battle. He has no idea that she has an item of power that blocks direct weaves, he knows he is the more powerful channeler and yet despite that he is going to risk using a flawed item of power(which has gone disastrously wrong before) in order to drop a mountain on her head as his first attack ...errmmm...scratches head. Don't think Vegas would have the greatest odds on that being how it plays out.

 

In addition to address this odd notion that brute force trumps all. As the brilliant Pat Rothfuss said:

 

What I did find oddly galling were some of the comments along the lines of, “Bast could never win against X. X has a power level of 9000!!!1!....

 

But vastly more irritating to me is the odd opinion that strength/power is the key factor when two people come into conflict.

 

The truth is, I find that sentiment more than irritating, I find it troubling. It means a lot of you haven’t been paying attention to the books I know you must have read.

 

If power is the only important thing, then Frodo loses against Sauron. Hell, if power’s the only important thing then Gandalf loses against Sauron. If magic is the deciding factor of a fight, then four plucky kids from England get their asses turned to stone by the White Which.

 

So yeah, Rake can turn into a dragon, but the point of fairy tales is that they teach us that dragons can be beaten.

 

You said in another thread that experience trumps that Ter'Angreal. You, Luckers, Ares, etc all said this when I claimed Lanfear should have died to Aliv, who barely escaped with her life. Rand's experience with channeling would certainly trump Cads. Aliv had hundreds of years being a weapon and fighting against other channeling weapons, if Lanfear can beat her arse with the Terangreal; Rand certainly can destroy Cads.

I think you have far too simplistic a view of things. It is entirely possible to win in a fight against someone who, on paper, seems to enjoy every advantage over you. Alivia has a lot of experience, but does not have as extensive a knowledge of the OP as the Chosen. Her experience is more limited than theirs - she fulfilled a battlefield role, and outside of that role is very inexperienced. She's the equivalent of an artilleryman of some years standing, being compared to a special forces operative. Different skill sets. Rand has a lot of experience and skills, as does Cadsuane. Her ter'angreal give her a number of advantages. But they are just advantages, not instant win buttons. They blunt some of the offensive and defensive capabilities of her opponents. But they don't remove them completely. Some opponents will be better able to adjust - most male channelers are lacking in knowledge and experience, and therefore would find it harder to adjust. The Chosen or Rand would be better able to. Her own defensive and offensive capabilities are far from insurmountable. In combination, she's a difficult opponent to beat, but Rand and the Chosen are all people who are capable of adapting and overcoming her in a fight. It wouldn't necessarily be easy, but she's just a tough opponent, not god.

 

While strength certailny doesn't win everything, I do remember RJ saying that Balthamel would have had no chance against Aginor. And yet Aginor was not a particularly good fighter, and while he was very strong, Balthamel was pretty strong as well. Strength is what would have made the difference between those two. Were they of the same strength, I would bet on Balthamel.

That's not exactly what he said. When asked about why Aginor and Balthamel went for the Eye, RJ's response concluded with him saying that "Balthamel might well have been for the long drop, administered by Aginor, if things hadn't worked out differently." That's a statement of intent more than anything.

 

That is one powerful Angreal then, because Nyn is much stronger than her and as per her own statement could probably channel 1/2 of the amount the circle with the white wand could in the tower when they healed Mat (and its said to be the most powerful known for a woman).

No, she said "I do not think I could handle half that much of the Power". That's quite a long way from what you're claiming.

[Vardar]

Although I wondered why Rand/LTT knew what her net was, yet Lanfear had never heard of a Ter'Angreal that blocked channeling. I mean you would think it would have come up during the war. One of the first things.

 

While Paralis-Nets were around in the AoL they all served different functions based on what thy were for. The individual piece that disrupts weaves was invented during the breaking. It did not exist yet in the AoL

 

 

Oh I know, I'm just saying, if we were AS in the old days, on a council, Once some of our members went rogue and started attacking us Im pretty sure we'd have a few immediate needs.

 

1) More Angreal/San

2) A way to defend ourselves from rogue channelers.

 

And I'm pretty sure those would rank together. Why did it take until the breaking to come up with it? (Just thoughts)

 

One thing to keep in mind is almost immediately after the war began in earnest a good deal of the infrastructure was destroyed. Per RJ they no longer had the facilities or tools to mass produce items of power. They became exceedingly rare.

 

Hmm. Interesting. It took facilities?

 

But not even mass producing, they could obviously still mass produce (As that's how Callendor got it's flaw, still odd to me) but the light side seemed to have the people who could make those things (the forsaken seem to bemoan the loss of that particular knowledge leaving me to believe the light side kept those people) so I'd think that would be the biggest project out there.

 

Yeah dunno, it hit tech items too. We know for instance that by the sealing people were far more likely to ride horses and use swords than have a jo car or shock lance. For whatever reason it was invented during the breaking sepcifcially to combat male channelers going mad, another thing I just read is that it can even detect reversed weaves which is pretty nifty.

 

Wow, cool. Thanks. Yea I understand tech facilities for making jo-cars and such, but just not the rest. Oh well.

[Kamin_Majere]

No, she said "I do not think I could handle half that much of the Power". That's quite a long way from what you're claiming.

Ah ok i see what you meant now

I read it a bit differently because of the statement itself and her next thought about marveling about coming close. No one alive "supposedly" could have handled 1/2 of it but the fact she could come close enough to make that statement where most people would have been overawed by the amount period.

 

Its just overall the books make the use of Circles and booster items very inconsistent.

[fionwe1987]

Just a quesiton, what does experience with her net have to do with anything? It's not like it takes practice to be immune to direct weaves. (this is a serious question, nothing sarcastic)

I would think one advantage with practice would be that she would be well aware that she isn't immune to indirect weaves. Which means she can concentrate on protecting herself from them while ignoring all the great big weaves anyone would initially send against her. And as we've seen with Rand, Egwene and others, protecting against indirect effects is somewhat easier than having to individually counter multiple weaves. There seem to be weaves that protect you against lighning, fire and explosions. And if Nynaeve's Paralis Net is anything to go by, Cadsuane also has a ter'angreal that creates a powerful suite of invisible armour that is stronger than anything made of metal, so that shold cover her against projectiles.

 

Even if we went your way, a person 35% stronger than another person would always beat them arm wrestling.

Except this isn't arm wrestling. What Nynaeve and Moghedien did in Tanchico, throwing their strengths into shields, then blocking the others' shield... that is arm wrestling. But Cadsuane has nothing to fear from sheilds. She can go on the offensive right away, and a full blown OP battle is nothing like arm wrestling. As we saw with Alivia vs. Cyndane, while Cyndane's superior skill and knowledge helped her survive, she wasn't able to kill Alivia and get past her either. Cadsuane is more skilled than Alivia, and knows much better how to use her Paralis Net, and has experience battling men and their invisible weaves.

Where do you get your numbers from, by the way? Or, is this just your opinion?

The numbers come from years of discussion in Wotmania, RAFO and (later) Theoryland. You're free to look those up, I have the same screen name in all those boards. We can make a pretty accurate numerical comparison between Egwene and Nynaeve, and while the exact difference between Rand and Nynaeve isn't known, we can make reasonable estimates based on several statements about Nynaeve's strength compared to female Foresaken, RJ's comments regarding the strongest male and female channelers, and Lanfear's comments.

 

She has an Angreal that makes her stronger than Rand? That is one powerful Angreal then, because Nyn is much stronger than her and as per her own statement could probably channel 1/2 of the amount the circle with the white wand could in the tower when they healed Mat (and its said to be the most powerful known for a woman) For her to have something that makes her not only stronger than Nyn but rand as well (who is even a few levels higher than that) I find that kinda unbelievable. Even Eggy with the White Wand probably was only at Nyn's level

No. Nynaeve was wrong in her estimation of how much power she could hold, as Egwene's thoughts in that scene demonstrate:

 

Just as softly, Nynaeve said, “If we stop them - if we could stop them - he’ll die. I do not think I could

handle half that much of the Power.” She paused as if she had just heard her own words - that she could channel

half of what ten full Aes Sedai did with a sa’angreal - and her voice grew even fainter. “Light help me, I want

to.”

 

Nynaeve is being wistful here, not making a statement about her strength level. Its like when people look at some great work of art and say "I don't think I could paint half as well".

 

Egwene with that want is approaching the range of Rand with callandor, though since we don't know exactly how Vora's wand stacks up to Callador, we can't say how close. She'll certainly be leaving an unaided Nynaeve far behind.

And by her own words her well is much weaker than Nyn's and Nyn's cant really do that much before drained. Its a great Ace in the Hole for her, but i cant imagine it doing much to really tilt the scales

It can open a tiny gateway. Meaning there's power enough for her to throw multiple fireballs, at least.

But yeah I agree with you, if this is her in truth then Cads is the creator and is only in this world to hrumph a lot and make a general annoyance of herself because she should have already won the last battle while Rand was still figuring out what was going on in book 2.

Since when has the last battle been about defeating the Foresaken? Did no one else read Verin's chapter in tGS?

[thisguy]

I thought that Nyna was pretty much on par with Moghedien for strength. Vard gave me a link and I found another compiled by fans of the power range for wielders. Cads is weaker than Eg, Elayne and Avi. In one they have her at 1/3 power of Rand in the other 1/2.

[Vardar]

Firstly, you have the problem of finding the Chosen. Not all of them broadcast their whereabouts. Then you ave to deal with whatever guards and other forces they have. She can't just Travel into their countries, she has to do it the old fashioned way. Even if she was able to find and kill one or two, the others would rapidly become aware of the threat facing them and turn their attentions to destroying her. They have a lot more knowledge of the Power than she does, and experience of dealing with things like rival channelers trying to kill them. She has a few advantages, such as her ability to disrupt enemy weaving, but that by no means renders her a god, and capable of laying waste to the Chosen. It's your stance that makes no sense.

 

Moraine was able to find a few of them rather easily. At first they made no secret of their whereabouts. Guards? They barely trusted each other, What guards did Belal have? Sam? Ravhin? In all those cases, not many is the answer. They had a few traps and such, but her other hair items could help with that.

 

More knowledge, yes, a lot more? Well, at this point in the game that becomes debatable. The forsaken, while old, were all near her age before sealing (at or around) so while they know things, so does she, things not known in AOL (like the warder bond, etc).

 

So what it comes down to is her advantages vs the disadvantages.

 

Advantages:

1) Surprise. If she slays forsaken, she'll keep this element, they don't know about weave blocking items. It's a huge advantage (By slaying them I'm implying leaving no witnesses to report exactly what happened)

2) Raw Power: Her Angreal. It makes her more powerful than them, again, she'll keep this one.

3) Her other items that provide assistence.

 

Disadvantages:

1) Experience. That's it. however, her advanced age makes her nearly equal. It's not a huge disadvantage,

 

I think you have far too simplistic a view of things. It is entirely possible to win in a fight against someone who, on paper, seems to enjoy every advantage over you. Alivia has a lot of experience, but does not have as extensive a knowledge of the OP as the Chosen. Her experience is more limited than theirs - she fulfilled a battlefield role, and outside of that role is very inexperienced. She's the equivalent of an artilleryman of some years standing, being compared to a special forces operative. Different skill sets. Rand has a lot of experience and skills, as does Cadsuane. Her ter'angreal give her a number of advantages. But they are just advantages, not instant win buttons. They blunt some of the offensive and defensive capabilities of her opponents. But they don't remove them completely. Some opponents will be better able to adjust - most male channelers are lacking in knowledge and experience, and therefore would find it harder to adjust. The Chosen or Rand would be better able to. Her own defensive and offensive capabilities are far from insurmountable. In combination, she's a difficult opponent to beat, but Rand and the Chosen are all people who are capable of adapting and overcoming her in a fight. It wouldn't necessarily be easy, but she's just a tough opponent, not god.

 

You are correct. It is possible on paper to win a fight against someone who has all the advantages, that statement applies very well in things like sports. However, somethings it doesn't apply very well. Sometimes things are just too far skewed, and off the wall. I'm implying her advantages are SOOOOOO many and powerful, that they should negate anything else. That's my stance. It's a simplistic view, because that's the way it would read on paper.

 

This isn't 2 NFL football teams, a top ranked vs the last placed team type situation. This is a NFL football team vs a preschool class type situaiton (In my mind, I'm entitled to my opinion). If you feel differently, fine, that's your right. But in a system of magic of this type, where you are at a huge disadvantage (no direct attacks) it comes down to running away or hoping the other side is a complete idiot so you can win. Otherwise, you don't have a snowballs chance in hell.

[Vardar]

I thought that Nyna was pretty much on par with Moghedien for strength. Vard gave me a link and I found another compiled by fans of the power range for wielders. Cads is weaker than Eg, Elayne and Avi. In one they have her at 1/3 power of Rand in the other 1/2.

 

 

Ny is more powerful than Moggy. Ny fought Moggy and held her when she wasn't at her max yet

 

I would think one advantage with practice would be that she would be well aware that she isn't immune to indirect weaves. Which means she can concentrate on protecting herself from them while ignoring all the great big weaves anyone would initially send against her. And as we've seen with Rand, Egwene and others, protecting against indirect effects is somewhat easier than having to individually counter multiple weaves. There seem to be weaves that protect you against lighning, fire and explosions. And if Nynaeve's Paralis Net is anything to go by, Cadsuane also has a ter'angreal that creates a powerful suite of invisible armour that is stronger than anything made of metal, so that shold cover her against projectiles.

 

Yea but that's not something you practice with. It's more of an, Oh look, I'm immune to A-ZZ. Once you know, you know. It doesn't take time to develop or hone the skill.

[thisguy]

About Cads and experience.... obviously she's got it in spades. However, she didn't know how to travel and probably knew less weaves than Nyna, Egwene and Elayne by book 8.

[thisguy]

I thought that Nyna was pretty much on par with Moghedien for strength. Vard gave me a link and I found another compiled by fans of the power range for wielders. Cads is weaker than Eg, Elayne and Avi. In one they have her at 1/3 power of Rand in the other 1/2.

 

 

Ny is more powerful than Moggy. Ny fought Moggy and held her when she wasn't at her max yet

 

I would think one advantage with practice would be that she would be well aware that she isn't immune to indirect weaves. Which means she can concentrate on protecting herself from them while ignoring all the great big weaves anyone would initially send against her. And as we've seen with Rand, Egwene and others, protecting against indirect effects is somewhat easier than having to individually counter multiple weaves. There seem to be weaves that protect you against lighning, fire and explosions. And if Nynaeve's Paralis Net is anything to go by, Cadsuane also has a ter'angreal that creates a powerful suite of invisible armour that is stronger than anything made of metal, so that shold cover her against projectiles.

 

Yea but that's not something you practice with. It's more of an, Oh look, I'm immune to A-ZZ. Once you know, you know. It doesn't take time to develop or hone the skill.

That's a very good point about her not being at max, yet. Which is something I brought up somewhere here yesterday: Rand probably still isn't at max and fought the Forsaken. They always talk about how he's the most powerful with Ish and that Lanfear is somewhere around there and Demandred a shade below, etc. It never comes up that he's not full powered yet when its mentioned in the books (at least not through book 7). Probably an oversight.

[Suttree]

About Cads and experience.... obviously she's got it in spades. However, she didn't know how to travel and probably knew less weaves than Nyna, Egwene and Elayne by book 8.

 

? That doesn't follow at all. Travelling was a lost weave. Just because the Wonder Girls were able to piece together new things and and learn a bit from what a forsaken let slip does not in any way mean they know more than her. It would be unrealistic to think they have already surpassed all she has been able to do with the OP over 300 years from a variety standpoint(regardless of whether they have invented a few new things, most of their training where cut prettys short). It is widely excepted she is the most well rounded of the modern channelers from a knowledge of the OP stand point.

[thisguy]

About Cads and experience.... obviously she's got it in spades. However, she didn't know how to travel and probably knew less weaves than Nyna, Egwene and Elayne by book 8.

 

? That doesn't follow at all. Travelling was a lost weave. Just because the Wonder Girls were able to piece together new things and and learn a bit from what a forsaken let slip does not in any way mean they know more than her. It would be unrealistic to think they have already surpassed all she has been able to do with the OP over 300 years. It is widely excepted she is the most well rounded of the modern channelers from a knowledge stand point.

It does follow. While she's obviously used the power more than the girls or Rand, she doesn't know as many weaves. She can't do as much with it. We're talking here about her fighting Rand. Obviously, the fact that he can do things she may not even know about has to be factored in.

[Vardar]

About Cads and experience.... obviously she's got it in spades. However, she didn't know how to travel and probably knew less weaves than Nyna, Egwene and Elayne by book 8.

 

? That doesn't follow at all. Travelling was a lost weave. Just because the Wonder Girls were able to piece together new things and and learn a bit from what a forsaken let slip does not in any way mean they know more than her. It would be unrealistic to think they have already surpassed all she has been able to do with the OP over 300 years from a variety standpoint(regardless of whether they have invented a few new things, most of their training where cut prettys short). It is widely excepted she is the most well rounded of the modern channelers from a knowledge of the OP stand point.

 

Holy crap, mark this moment down.

 

Sutts and I totally agree on something.

 

About Cads and experience.... obviously she's got it in spades. However, she didn't know how to travel and probably knew less weaves than Nyna, Egwene and Elayne by book 8.

 

? That doesn't follow at all. Travelling was a lost weave. Just because the Wonder Girls were able to piece together new things and and learn a bit from what a forsaken let slip does not in any way mean they know more than her. It would be unrealistic to think they have already surpassed all she has been able to do with the OP over 300 years. It is widely excepted she is the most well rounded of the modern channelers from a knowledge stand point.

It does follow. While she's obviously used the power more than the girls or Rand, she doesn't know as many weaves. She can't do as much with it. We're talking here about her fighting Rand. Obviously, the fact that he can do things she may not even know about has to be factored in.

 

She probably knows more weaves than the wonder girls (Maybe) at least different ones. The only reason they may be near her knowledge is because of Moggy. But I'd still give the edge to Cads.

[Suttree]

About Cads and experience.... obviously she's got it in spades. However, she didn't know how to travel and probably knew less weaves than Nyna, Egwene and Elayne by book 8.

 

? That doesn't follow at all. Travelling was a lost weave. Just because the Wonder Girls were able to piece together new things and and learn a bit from what a forsaken let slip does not in any way mean they know more than her. It would be unrealistic to think they have already surpassed all she has been able to do with the OP over 300 years. It is widely excepted she is the most well rounded of the modern channelers from a knowledge stand point.

It does follow. While she's obviously used the power more than the girls or Rand, she doesn't know as many weaves. She can't do as much with it. We're talking here about her fighting Rand. Obviously, the fact that he can do things she may not even know about has to be factored in.

 

Rand yes, the girls not even remotely close.

[thisguy]

About Cads and experience.... obviously she's got it in spades. However, she didn't know how to travel and probably knew less weaves than Nyna, Egwene and Elayne by book 8.

 

? That doesn't follow at all. Travelling was a lost weave. Just because the Wonder Girls were able to piece together new things and and learn a bit from what a forsaken let slip does not in any way mean they know more than her. It would be unrealistic to think they have already surpassed all she has been able to do with the OP over 300 years. It is widely excepted she is the most well rounded of the modern channelers from a knowledge stand point.

It does follow. While she's obviously used the power more than the girls or Rand, she doesn't know as many weaves. She can't do as much with it. We're talking here about her fighting Rand. Obviously, the fact that he can do things she may not even know about has to be factored in.

 

Rand yes, the girls not even remotely close.

Maybe, maybe not. The girls learn from the Kin, The Aiel and the Windfinders. I remember Ish (as Moridin) at the end of book 7 or beginning of book 8 saying that some of the power users can affect storms in ways that would need a terangreal in his time.

[Suttree]

About Cads and experience.... obviously she's got it in spades. However, she didn't know how to travel and probably knew less weaves than Nyna, Egwene and Elayne by book 8.

 

? That doesn't follow at all. Travelling was a lost weave. Just because the Wonder Girls were able to piece together new things and and learn a bit from what a forsaken let slip does not in any way mean they know more than her. It would be unrealistic to think they have already surpassed all she has been able to do with the OP over 300 years. It is widely excepted she is the most well rounded of the modern channelers from a knowledge stand point.

It does follow. While she's obviously used the power more than the girls or Rand, she doesn't know as many weaves. She can't do as much with it. We're talking here about her fighting Rand. Obviously, the fact that he can do things she may not even know about has to be factored in.

 

Rand yes, the girls not even remotely close.

Maybe, maybe not. The girls learn from the Kin, The Aiel and the Windfinders. I remember Ish (as Moridin) at the end of book 7 or beginning of book 8 saying that some of the power users can affect storms in ways that would need a terangreal in his time.

 

Cads has learned from far more than just AS...

 

WH

She herself, full of pride in her new shawl and her own strength, had been taught by a near toothless wilder at a farm in the heart of the Black Hills.

 

In addition we know she has travelled the world a few times over throughout her 300 years and see her familiar with various cultures. No the girls have a long way to go before reaching her level. They are very strong at certain things but have huge gaps in their training as well. Take Nyn for example:

 

WH

The girl had good material in her, but her training had been cut far too short. Her ability with Healing was little short of miraculous, her ability with almost anything else dismal.