AMOL worries

[fionwe1987]

First off, very well put and I do agree with your description of her reasons for behaving like that. My problem with her method is that there is a discrepancy between her objectives and her method. Her methods were used in order to earn Rands respect but not his trust which doesn’t resonate well with what she wanted to teach him.

 

Here is how I see Cadsuanes roll in the series. She saw that the way Rand were handling his feelings would not only be unhealthy to him but dangerous for the outcome of the last battle. There is really only one way of helping with a problem like that and that is by earning his trust. For all Cadsuanes plans (which you proved were well thought out and well executed) she did earn his respect but not his trust. He listened to her logic but not to her wisdom if that makes any sense.

 

In order to give myself a little credibility I use exhibit A; Tam. Rand completely trust his dad and do listen to his wisdom. It only took one scene until Tam had successfully countered all Rands fears and doubts about the outcome of the last battle and Rand started to feel a glimpse of hope (something Cadsuane never could inspire him to feel). It was only until Tam mentioned Cadsuanes name that the reunion went from ‘yaaaay-my-dad-is-here’ to ‘I’m-gonna-balefire-you-out-off- the-pattern-dad’. Rands reaction clearly showed how little he trusted Cadsuane and if she’s involved in any way he can’t trust it. It wouldn’t matter one bit how well Cadsuane would lay out her arguments to Rand he still wouldn’t take it into his heart like he did with Tam. Their whole relationship is completely off balance.

Oh I don't think Cadsuane would disagree with you here. Ask, and I'm sure she'd love to have been able to appraoch him and just talk in a normal way. But she couldn't, due to past events. Which is why she is so monumentally pissed at people like Elaida and Moiraine. They mishandled Rand, making it certain that he would mistrust and disrespect all Aes Sedai on sight. Heck, he got to the point of thinking Egwene would unleash Semirhage on him to spite him!

My whole point is if Cadsuane wanted to be an advisor to Rand, her method really worked well. However if she wanted to give Rand hope, make him connect with his feelings etc. etc., then no, she used wrong tools. By behaving like she did Rand respected her and would listen to logically, well-reasoned advice but he wouldn’t let her guide him.

I don't think Cadsuane ever intended herself to be the source of wisdom, though she did try now and then. She was well aware Rand didn't trust her, and if you read her PoV in CoT, she seems clear that she needs other inroads to change that aspect of Rand.

 

I'm on my way to work and can't go through this yet all the way, but from the bottom up: no, she did not make it clear to Rand until sometime after the fog incident. She just came storming into his rooms while he was talking with Berelain without permission; which I find funny as she's a stickler for manners.

 

She is not. Cadsuane doesn't give a damn about manners. She constantly pricks people's bubbles and pushes into their comfort zone with no care for personal space or the sensibilities of others. Cadsuane has a near Talent for rudeness and no real skill at diplomacy, as she herself acknowledges. That you think her rules for Rand's behavior has anything to do with her own preferences shows how little you understand the character.

 

Rand was not a tyrant when Cads came through. In fact, a great argument could be made that he ruled people better than their rulers. He made all the nobles have to follow the same laws with the same repercussions as the commoners. He made sure people were fed and safer than their own nobles could make them. In fact, the council in Illian give him the crown they say because he sent grain from Tear so their people didn't starve. If he became tyrannical, it wasn't until AFTER Cadsuane came into his life. Just to be clear, I'm not blaming her for that, I'm putting the timeline in correct order.

What you're saying is that Rand was a good tyrant. He used the terror his position and power caused in the nobles to force them to his view, which was that nobles can't kill normal people. The point is not what he forced people to do, its how he did it. He threatened to hang them. He didn't work to convince them. He didn't even manipulate them.

 

If you think the Rand of tGS came about suddenly, you're wrong. There was a gradual change in him till he got there, and by aCoS the signs were there for all to see, most certainly for someone like Cadsuane.

No, her kind did nothing of the sort. They came in reasonable from the Tower but not honest.

You're restating exactly what I said, but seem to think you're disagreeing with me...

As I've mentioned in the post above, Cadsuane did not tell Rand her intentions when she first came into his rooms. In fact, she was rude (She likes to shove his manners in his face) and didn't even know about the AS from the Tower sticking him in a box.

Yes. I beleive the reason she came in seeking to provoke him was made clear by Suttree's quote.

 

Cadsuane shook her head in pitying style. "If you want to see what a man is made of, push him from a direction he doesn't expect. There's good metal in that boy, I think, but he's going to be difficult." Steepling her fingers, she peered across them at the wall, musing to herself. "He has a rage in him fit to burn the world, and he holds it by a hair. Push him too far off balance .... Phaw! Al'Thor's not so hard yet as Logain Ablar or Mazrim Taim, but a hundred times as difficult, I fear." Hearing those three names together clove Merana's tongue to the

roof of her mouth.

 

Moreover, she didn't even try to find out until after the fog incident. She went in their with limited intel and didn't even try to get any - like a bull in a china shop. If any of the battle commanders did so before battle (unless they had no choice), we'd think they'd have done a bad job.

Yes... unfortunately for you, the first thing she did after meeting Rand was gather intel. Would you now concede she did a good job?

 

Before very long, Merana was glad to be sitting; before very long, she knew what laundry felt going

through the laundress's mangle. Cadsuane did all the questioning, dodging from topic to topic so you never

knew what was coming next. Corele held her peace except for chuckling now and then or shaking her head, and

Daigian did not even do that, of course. Merana caught the worst, her and Bera and Kiruna, yet Annoura was

certainly not spared.

Every time Berelain's advisor relaxed, thinking she was in the clear, Cadsuane skewered her anew.

The woman wanted to know everything, from the al'Thor boy's authority with the Aiel to why a Sea

Folk Wavemistress was anchored in the river, from whether Moiraine truly was dead to whether the boy really

had rediscovered Traveling and whether Berelain had bedded him or had any intention of it. What Cadsuane

thought of the answers was impossible to say, except once, when she learned that Alanna had bonded al'Thor,

and how. Her mouth compressed to a thin line and she frowned a hole though the wall, but while everyone else

expressed disgust, Merana thought of Cadsuane saying she had considered taking another Warder herself.

The answer was ignorance entirely too often to suit, but saying you did not know failed to quench

Cadsuane's appetite; she required every last shred and particle you did know, even if you did not know you

knew it. They managed to keep a little back, most of what had to be kept back, yet a few surprising things came

out that way, some very surprising, even from Annoura, who, it turned out, had been receiving detailed letters

from Berelain almost from the day the girl rode north. Cadsuane demanded answers, but gave none, and that

worried Merana. She watched faces grow dogged and defensive and apologetic, and wondered whether her own

looked the same.

"Cadsuane." She had to make one more effort. "Cadsuane, why have you decided to take an interest in

him now?" An unblinking gaze met hers for a moment, then Cadsuane turned her attention to Bera and Kiruna.

"So they actually managed to kidnap him right out of the palace," the gray-haired woman said, holding

out her empty cup for Daigian to refill. No one else had been offered tea. Cadsuane's expression and tone were

so neutral that Merana wanted to tear her own hair. Al'Thor would not be pleased if he learned Kiruna had

revealed the kidnapping, however inadvertently; Cadsuane used any slip of your tongue to pry out more than

you meant to say. At least the details of bis treatment had not come out. He had made plain how displeased he

would be if that happened. Merana thanked the Light that the woman was not staying with any one subject for

long.

 

All Cadsuane found out after the fog incident was that Rand was put in a box. Important, but hardly game changing, compared to the kidnapping itself.

 

What's more, Rand was in no way unreasonable at this point. In fact, during the fog incident, Cadsuane tells him and the Lords with the swords that they'll basically use magic and they should use their swords. This was done in a way asking Rand not to use saidan. He nodded yes with no argument, quicker than I've seen most AS respond to a request or order. Rand goes overboard in the books to come but when Cads came around, he had a bad temper but treated people well. He took every death caused by him, whether his fault or not, onto his own shoulders. THAT was his biggest problem. Much of the anger stems from that, too.

This is plain fanboyism. Rand agreed not to reveal he was a male channeler to a bunch of people he was secretly trying to win over to his side? This is what passes for reasonable?

[yoniy0]

Ahm, let's keep civil, okay? I mean, I agree with the point you're making, but I don't think it calls for name-calling.

[thisguy]

First off, very well put and I do agree with your description of her reasons for behaving like that. My problem with her method is that there is a discrepancy between her objectives and her method. Her methods were used in order to earn Rands respect but not his trust which doesn’t resonate well with what she wanted to teach him.

 

Here is how I see Cadsuanes roll in the series. She saw that the way Rand were handling his feelings would not only be unhealthy to him but dangerous for the outcome of the last battle. There is really only one way of helping with a problem like that and that is by earning his trust. For all Cadsuanes plans (which you proved were well thought out and well executed) she did earn his respect but not his trust. He listened to her logic but not to her wisdom if that makes any sense.

 

In order to give myself a little credibility I use exhibit A; Tam. Rand completely trust his dad and do listen to his wisdom. It only took one scene until Tam had successfully countered all Rands fears and doubts about the outcome of the last battle and Rand started to feel a glimpse of hope (something Cadsuane never could inspire him to feel). It was only until Tam mentioned Cadsuanes name that the reunion went from ‘yaaaay-my-dad-is-here’ to ‘I’m-gonna-balefire-you-out-off- the-pattern-dad’. Rands reaction clearly showed how little he trusted Cadsuane and if she’s involved in any way he can’t trust it. It wouldn’t matter one bit how well Cadsuane would lay out her arguments to Rand he still wouldn’t take it into his heart like he did with Tam. Their whole relationship is completely off balance.

Oh I don't think Cadsuane would disagree with you here. Ask, and I'm sure she'd love to have been able to appraoch him and just talk in a normal way. But she couldn't, due to past events. Which is why she is so monumentally pissed at people like Elaida and Moiraine. They mishandled Rand, making it certain that he would mistrust and disrespect all Aes Sedai on sight. Heck, he got to the point of thinking Egwene would unleash Semirhage on him to spite him!

My whole point is if Cadsuane wanted to be an advisor to Rand, her method really worked well. However if she wanted to give Rand hope, make him connect with his feelings etc. etc., then no, she used wrong tools. By behaving like she did Rand respected her and would listen to logically, well-reasoned advice but he wouldn’t let her guide him.

I don't think Cadsuane ever intended herself to be the source of wisdom, though she did try now and then. She was well aware Rand didn't trust her, and if you read her PoV in CoT, she seems clear that she needs other inroads to change that aspect of Rand.

 

I'm on my way to work and can't go through this yet all the way, but from the bottom up: no, she did not make it clear to Rand until sometime after the fog incident. She just came storming into his rooms while he was talking with Berelain without permission; which I find funny as she's a stickler for manners.

 

She is not. Cadsuane doesn't give a damn about manners. She constantly pricks people's bubbles and pushes into their comfort zone with no care for personal space or the sensibilities of others. Cadsuane has a near Talent for rudeness and no real skill at diplomacy, as she herself acknowledges. That you think her rules for Rand's behavior has anything to do with her own preferences shows how little you understand the character.

 

Rand was not a tyrant when Cads came through. In fact, a great argument could be made that he ruled people better than their rulers. He made all the nobles have to follow the same laws with the same repercussions as the commoners. He made sure people were fed and safer than their own nobles could make them. In fact, the council in Illian give him the crown they say because he sent grain from Tear so their people didn't starve. If he became tyrannical, it wasn't until AFTER Cadsuane came into his life. Just to be clear, I'm not blaming her for that, I'm putting the timeline in correct order.

What you're saying is that Rand was a good tyrant. He used the terror his position and power caused in the nobles to force them to his view, which was that nobles can't kill normal people. The point is not what he forced people to do, its how he did it. He threatened to hang them. He didn't work to convince them. He didn't even manipulate them.

 

If you think the Rand of tGS came about suddenly, you're wrong. There was a gradual change in him till he got there, and by aCoS the signs were there for all to see, most certainly for someone like Cadsuane.

No, her kind did nothing of the sort. They came in reasonable from the Tower but not honest.

You're restating exactly what I said, but seem to think you're disagreeing with me...

As I've mentioned in the post above, Cadsuane did not tell Rand her intentions when she first came into his rooms. In fact, she was rude (She likes to shove his manners in his face) and didn't even know about the AS from the Tower sticking him in a box.

Yes. I beleive the reason she came in seeking to provoke him was made clear by Suttree's quote.

 

Cadsuane shook her head in pitying style. "If you want to see what a man is made of, push him from a direction he doesn't expect. There's good metal in that boy, I think, but he's going to be difficult." Steepling her fingers, she peered across them at the wall, musing to herself. "He has a rage in him fit to burn the world, and he holds it by a hair. Push him too far off balance .... Phaw! Al'Thor's not so hard yet as Logain Ablar or Mazrim Taim, but a hundred times as difficult, I fear." Hearing those three names together clove Merana's tongue to the

roof of her mouth.

 

Moreover, she didn't even try to find out until after the fog incident. She went in their with limited intel and didn't even try to get any - like a bull in a china shop. If any of the battle commanders did so before battle (unless they had no choice), we'd think they'd have done a bad job.

Yes... unfortunately for you, the first thing she did after meeting Rand was gather intel. Would you now concede she did a good job?

 

Before very long, Merana was glad to be sitting; before very long, she knew what laundry felt going

through the laundress's mangle. Cadsuane did all the questioning, dodging from topic to topic so you never

knew what was coming next. Corele held her peace except for chuckling now and then or shaking her head, and

Daigian did not even do that, of course. Merana caught the worst, her and Bera and Kiruna, yet Annoura was

certainly not spared.

Every time Berelain's advisor relaxed, thinking she was in the clear, Cadsuane skewered her anew.

The woman wanted to know everything, from the al'Thor boy's authority with the Aiel to why a Sea

Folk Wavemistress was anchored in the river, from whether Moiraine truly was dead to whether the boy really

had rediscovered Traveling and whether Berelain had bedded him or had any intention of it. What Cadsuane

thought of the answers was impossible to say, except once, when she learned that Alanna had bonded al'Thor,

and how. Her mouth compressed to a thin line and she frowned a hole though the wall, but while everyone else

expressed disgust, Merana thought of Cadsuane saying she had considered taking another Warder herself.

The answer was ignorance entirely too often to suit, but saying you did not know failed to quench

Cadsuane's appetite; she required every last shred and particle you did know, even if you did not know you

knew it. They managed to keep a little back, most of what had to be kept back, yet a few surprising things came

out that way, some very surprising, even from Annoura, who, it turned out, had been receiving detailed letters

from Berelain almost from the day the girl rode north. Cadsuane demanded answers, but gave none, and that

worried Merana. She watched faces grow dogged and defensive and apologetic, and wondered whether her own

looked the same.

"Cadsuane." She had to make one more effort. "Cadsuane, why have you decided to take an interest in

him now?" An unblinking gaze met hers for a moment, then Cadsuane turned her attention to Bera and Kiruna.

"So they actually managed to kidnap him right out of the palace," the gray-haired woman said, holding

out her empty cup for Daigian to refill. No one else had been offered tea. Cadsuane's expression and tone were

so neutral that Merana wanted to tear her own hair. Al'Thor would not be pleased if he learned Kiruna had

revealed the kidnapping, however inadvertently; Cadsuane used any slip of your tongue to pry out more than

you meant to say. At least the details of bis treatment had not come out. He had made plain how displeased he

would be if that happened. Merana thanked the Light that the woman was not staying with any one subject for

long.

 

All Cadsuane found out after the fog incident was that Rand was put in a box. Important, but hardly game changing, compared to the kidnapping itself.

 

What's more, Rand was in no way unreasonable at this point. In fact, during the fog incident, Cadsuane tells him and the Lords with the swords that they'll basically use magic and they should use their swords. This was done in a way asking Rand not to use saidan. He nodded yes with no argument, quicker than I've seen most AS respond to a request or order. Rand goes overboard in the books to come but when Cads came around, he had a bad temper but treated people well. He took every death caused by him, whether his fault or not, onto his own shoulders. THAT was his biggest problem. Much of the anger stems from that, too.

This is plain fanboyism. Rand agreed not to reveal he was a male channeler to a bunch of people he was secretly trying to win over to his side? This is what passes for reasonable?

Fanboyism?? I've probably read the books less than you. Rulers make laws. Hanging people is part of that, especially in Randland.

 

Listening to Cads was reasonable. One of the people he was trying to win over was already pretty sure he was the DR.

 

Unfortunate for me? I don't think so. And, my point, unfortunately for you, is that she went into his rooms knowing almost nothing about him like a bull in a china shop - which is what I said above. I mentioned the first meeting and said she gathered intelligence after that meeting. Which, it appears, you agree with me about - unfortunately.

 

As for agreeing with you about how the Tower AS came to him - I said that Cads could have come to him honestly which they did not. She doesnt get honest with him until after that first meeting.

[Suttree]

First off, very well put and I do agree with your description of her reasons for behaving like that. My problem with her method is that there is a discrepancy between her objectives and her method. Her methods were used in order to earn Rands respect but not his trust which doesn’t resonate well with what she wanted to teach him.

 

Here is how I see Cadsuanes roll in the series. She saw that the way Rand were handling his feelings would not only be unhealthy to him but dangerous for the outcome of the last battle. There is really only one way of helping with a problem like that and that is by earning his trust. For all Cadsuanes plans (which you proved were well thought out and well executed) she did earn his respect but not his trust. He listened to her logic but not to her wisdom if that makes any sense.

 

In order to give myself a little credibility I use exhibit A; Tam. Rand completely trust his dad and do listen to his wisdom. It only took one scene until Tam had successfully countered all Rands fears and doubts about the outcome of the last battle and Rand started to feel a glimpse of hope (something Cadsuane never could inspire him to feel). It was only until Tam mentioned Cadsuanes name that the reunion went from ‘yaaaay-my-dad-is-here’ to ‘I’m-gonna-balefire-you-out-off- the-pattern-dad’. Rands reaction clearly showed how little he trusted Cadsuane and if she’s involved in any way he can’t trust it. It wouldn’t matter one bit how well Cadsuane would lay out her arguments to Rand he still wouldn’t take it into his heart like he did with Tam. Their whole relationship is completely off balance.

Oh I don't think Cadsuane would disagree with you here. Ask, and I'm sure she'd love to have been able to appraoch him and just talk in a normal way. But she couldn't, due to past events. Which is why she is so monumentally pissed at people like Elaida and Moiraine. They mishandled Rand, making it certain that he would mistrust and disrespect all Aes Sedai on sight. Heck, he got to the point of thinking Egwene would unleash Semirhage on him to spite him!

My whole point is if Cadsuane wanted to be an advisor to Rand, her method really worked well. However if she wanted to give Rand hope, make him connect with his feelings etc. etc., then no, she used wrong tools. By behaving like she did Rand respected her and would listen to logically, well-reasoned advice but he wouldn’t let her guide him.

I don't think Cadsuane ever intended herself to be the source of wisdom, though she did try now and then. She was well aware Rand didn't trust her, and if you read her PoV in CoT, she seems clear that she needs other inroads to change that aspect of Rand.

 

I'm on my way to work and can't go through this yet all the way, but from the bottom up: no, she did not make it clear to Rand until sometime after the fog incident. She just came storming into his rooms while he was talking with Berelain without permission; which I find funny as she's a stickler for manners.

 

She is not. Cadsuane doesn't give a damn about manners. She constantly pricks people's bubbles and pushes into their comfort zone with no care for personal space or the sensibilities of others. Cadsuane has a near Talent for rudeness and no real skill at diplomacy, as she herself acknowledges. That you think her rules for Rand's behavior has anything to do with her own preferences shows how little you understand the character.

 

Rand was not a tyrant when Cads came through. In fact, a great argument could be made that he ruled people better than their rulers. He made all the nobles have to follow the same laws with the same repercussions as the commoners. He made sure people were fed and safer than their own nobles could make them. In fact, the council in Illian give him the crown they say because he sent grain from Tear so their people didn't starve. If he became tyrannical, it wasn't until AFTER Cadsuane came into his life. Just to be clear, I'm not blaming her for that, I'm putting the timeline in correct order.

What you're saying is that Rand was a good tyrant. He used the terror his position and power caused in the nobles to force them to his view, which was that nobles can't kill normal people. The point is not what he forced people to do, its how he did it. He threatened to hang them. He didn't work to convince them. He didn't even manipulate them.

 

If you think the Rand of tGS came about suddenly, you're wrong. There was a gradual change in him till he got there, and by aCoS the signs were there for all to see, most certainly for someone like Cadsuane.

No, her kind did nothing of the sort. They came in reasonable from the Tower but not honest.

You're restating exactly what I said, but seem to think you're disagreeing with me...

As I've mentioned in the post above, Cadsuane did not tell Rand her intentions when she first came into his rooms. In fact, she was rude (She likes to shove his manners in his face) and didn't even know about the AS from the Tower sticking him in a box.

Yes. I beleive the reason she came in seeking to provoke him was made clear by Suttree's quote.

 

Cadsuane shook her head in pitying style. "If you want to see what a man is made of, push him from a direction he doesn't expect. There's good metal in that boy, I think, but he's going to be difficult." Steepling her fingers, she peered across them at the wall, musing to herself. "He has a rage in him fit to burn the world, and he holds it by a hair. Push him too far off balance .... Phaw! Al'Thor's not so hard yet as Logain Ablar or Mazrim Taim, but a hundred times as difficult, I fear." Hearing those three names together clove Merana's tongue to the

roof of her mouth.

 

Moreover, she didn't even try to find out until after the fog incident. She went in their with limited intel and didn't even try to get any - like a bull in a china shop. If any of the battle commanders did so before battle (unless they had no choice), we'd think they'd have done a bad job.

Yes... unfortunately for you, the first thing she did after meeting Rand was gather intel. Would you now concede she did a good job?

 

Before very long, Merana was glad to be sitting; before very long, she knew what laundry felt going

through the laundress's mangle. Cadsuane did all the questioning, dodging from topic to topic so you never

knew what was coming next. Corele held her peace except for chuckling now and then or shaking her head, and

Daigian did not even do that, of course. Merana caught the worst, her and Bera and Kiruna, yet Annoura was

certainly not spared.

Every time Berelain's advisor relaxed, thinking she was in the clear, Cadsuane skewered her anew.

The woman wanted to know everything, from the al'Thor boy's authority with the Aiel to why a Sea

Folk Wavemistress was anchored in the river, from whether Moiraine truly was dead to whether the boy really

had rediscovered Traveling and whether Berelain had bedded him or had any intention of it. What Cadsuane

thought of the answers was impossible to say, except once, when she learned that Alanna had bonded al'Thor,

and how. Her mouth compressed to a thin line and she frowned a hole though the wall, but while everyone else

expressed disgust, Merana thought of Cadsuane saying she had considered taking another Warder herself.

The answer was ignorance entirely too often to suit, but saying you did not know failed to quench

Cadsuane's appetite; she required every last shred and particle you did know, even if you did not know you

knew it. They managed to keep a little back, most of what had to be kept back, yet a few surprising things came

out that way, some very surprising, even from Annoura, who, it turned out, had been receiving detailed letters

from Berelain almost from the day the girl rode north. Cadsuane demanded answers, but gave none, and that

worried Merana. She watched faces grow dogged and defensive and apologetic, and wondered whether her own

looked the same.

"Cadsuane." She had to make one more effort. "Cadsuane, why have you decided to take an interest in

him now?" An unblinking gaze met hers for a moment, then Cadsuane turned her attention to Bera and Kiruna.

"So they actually managed to kidnap him right out of the palace," the gray-haired woman said, holding

out her empty cup for Daigian to refill. No one else had been offered tea. Cadsuane's exp<b></b>ression and tone were

so neutral that Merana wanted to tear her own hair. Al'Thor would not be pleased if he learned Kiruna had

revealed the kidnapping, however inadvertently; Cadsuane used any slip of your tongue to pry out more than

you meant to say. At least the details of bis treatment had not come out. He had made plain how displeased he

would be if that happened. Merana thanked the Light that the woman was not staying with any one subject for

long.

 

All Cadsuane found out after the fog incident was that Rand was put in a box. Important, but hardly game changing, compared to the kidnapping itself.

 

What's more, Rand was in no way unreasonable at this point. In fact, during the fog incident, Cadsuane tells him and the Lords with the swords that they'll basically use magic and they should use their swords. This was done in a way asking Rand not to use saidan. He nodded yes with no argument, quicker than I've seen most AS respond to a request or order. Rand goes overboard in the books to come but when Cads came around, he had a bad temper but treated people well. He took every death caused by him, whether his fault or not, onto his own shoulders. THAT was his biggest problem. Much of the anger stems from that, too.

This is plain fanboyism. Rand agreed not to reveal he was a male channeler to a bunch of people he was secretly trying to win over to his side? This is what passes for reasonable?

Fanboyism?? I've probably read the books less than you. Rulers make laws. Hanging people is part of that, especially in Randland.

 

Listening to Cads was reasonable. One of the people he was trying to win over was already pretty sure he was the DR.

 

Unfortunate for me? I don't think so. And, my point, unfortunately for you, is that she went into his rooms knowing almost nothing about him like a bull in a china shop - which is what I said above. I mentioned the first meeting and said she gathered intelligence after that meeting. Which, it appears, you agree with me about - unfortunately.

 

As for agreeing with you about how the Tower AS came to him - I said that Cads could have come to him honestly which they did not. She doesnt get honest with him until after that first meeting.

 

Come on thiguy. Her methods and success have been spelled out in excruciating detail. She tested him herself and at the first available opportunity dug every scrap of info out(not after the fog as you claimed). Your initial point concerning the way she went about things has been sorely disabused. It is made abundantly clear in the text how and why she had to go about it the way she did.

[thisguy]

First off, very well put and I do agree with your description of her reasons for behaving like that. My problem with her method is that there is a discrepancy between her objectives and her method. Her methods were used in order to earn Rands respect but not his trust which doesn’t resonate well with what she wanted to teach him.

 

Here is how I see Cadsuanes roll in the series. She saw that the way Rand were handling his feelings would not only be unhealthy to him but dangerous for the outcome of the last battle. There is really only one way of helping with a problem like that and that is by earning his trust. For all Cadsuanes plans (which you proved were well thought out and well executed) she did earn his respect but not his trust. He listened to her logic but not to her wisdom if that makes any sense.

 

In order to give myself a little credibility I use exhibit A; Tam. Rand completely trust his dad and do listen to his wisdom. It only took one scene until Tam had successfully countered all Rands fears and doubts about the outcome of the last battle and Rand started to feel a glimpse of hope (something Cadsuane never could inspire him to feel). It was only until Tam mentioned Cadsuanes name that the reunion went from ‘yaaaay-my-dad-is-here’ to ‘I’m-gonna-balefire-you-out-off- the-pattern-dad’. Rands reaction clearly showed how little he trusted Cadsuane and if she’s involved in any way he can’t trust it. It wouldn’t matter one bit how well Cadsuane would lay out her arguments to Rand he still wouldn’t take it into his heart like he did with Tam. Their whole relationship is completely off balance.

Oh I don't think Cadsuane would disagree with you here. Ask, and I'm sure she'd love to have been able to appraoch him and just talk in a normal way. But she couldn't, due to past events. Which is why she is so monumentally pissed at people like Elaida and Moiraine. They mishandled Rand, making it certain that he would mistrust and disrespect all Aes Sedai on sight. Heck, he got to the point of thinking Egwene would unleash Semirhage on him to spite him!

My whole point is if Cadsuane wanted to be an advisor to Rand, her method really worked well. However if she wanted to give Rand hope, make him connect with his feelings etc. etc., then no, she used wrong tools. By behaving like she did Rand respected her and would listen to logically, well-reasoned advice but he wouldn’t let her guide him.

I don't think Cadsuane ever intended herself to be the source of wisdom, though she did try now and then. She was well aware Rand didn't trust her, and if you read her PoV in CoT, she seems clear that she needs other inroads to change that aspect of Rand.

 

I'm on my way to work and can't go through this yet all the way, but from the bottom up: no, she did not make it clear to Rand until sometime after the fog incident. She just came storming into his rooms while he was talking with Berelain without permission; which I find funny as she's a stickler for manners.

 

She is not. Cadsuane doesn't give a damn about manners. She constantly pricks people's bubbles and pushes into their comfort zone with no care for personal space or the sensibilities of others. Cadsuane has a near Talent for rudeness and no real skill at diplomacy, as she herself acknowledges. That you think her rules for Rand's behavior has anything to do with her own preferences shows how little you understand the character.

 

Rand was not a tyrant when Cads came through. In fact, a great argument could be made that he ruled people better than their rulers. He made all the nobles have to follow the same laws with the same repercussions as the commoners. He made sure people were fed and safer than their own nobles could make them. In fact, the council in Illian give him the crown they say because he sent grain from Tear so their people didn't starve. If he became tyrannical, it wasn't until AFTER Cadsuane came into his life. Just to be clear, I'm not blaming her for that, I'm putting the timeline in correct order.

What you're saying is that Rand was a good tyrant. He used the terror his position and power caused in the nobles to force them to his view, which was that nobles can't kill normal people. The point is not what he forced people to do, its how he did it. He threatened to hang them. He didn't work to convince them. He didn't even manipulate them.

 

If you think the Rand of tGS came about suddenly, you're wrong. There was a gradual change in him till he got there, and by aCoS the signs were there for all to see, most certainly for someone like Cadsuane.

No, her kind did nothing of the sort. They came in reasonable from the Tower but not honest.

You're restating exactly what I said, but seem to think you're disagreeing with me...

As I've mentioned in the post above, Cadsuane did not tell Rand her intentions when she first came into his rooms. In fact, she was rude (She likes to shove his manners in his face) and didn't even know about the AS from the Tower sticking him in a box.

Yes. I beleive the reason she came in seeking to provoke him was made clear by Suttree's quote.

 

Cadsuane shook her head in pitying style. "If you want to see what a man is made of, push him from a direction he doesn't expect. There's good metal in that boy, I think, but he's going to be difficult." Steepling her fingers, she peered across them at the wall, musing to herself. "He has a rage in him fit to burn the world, and he holds it by a hair. Push him too far off balance .... Phaw! Al'Thor's not so hard yet as Logain Ablar or Mazrim Taim, but a hundred times as difficult, I fear." Hearing those three names together clove Merana's tongue to the

roof of her mouth.

 

Moreover, she didn't even try to find out until after the fog incident. She went in their with limited intel and didn't even try to get any - like a bull in a china shop. If any of the battle commanders did so before battle (unless they had no choice), we'd think they'd have done a bad job.

Yes... unfortunately for you, the first thing she did after meeting Rand was gather intel. Would you now concede she did a good job?

 

Before very long, Merana was glad to be sitting; before very long, she knew what laundry felt going

through the laundress's mangle. Cadsuane did all the questioning, dodging from topic to topic so you never

knew what was coming next. Corele held her peace except for chuckling now and then or shaking her head, and

Daigian did not even do that, of course. Merana caught the worst, her and Bera and Kiruna, yet Annoura was

certainly not spared.

Every time Berelain's advisor relaxed, thinking she was in the clear, Cadsuane skewered her anew.

The woman wanted to know everything, from the al'Thor boy's authority with the Aiel to why a Sea

Folk Wavemistress was anchored in the river, from whether Moiraine truly was dead to whether the boy really

had rediscovered Traveling and whether Berelain had bedded him or had any intention of it. What Cadsuane

thought of the answers was impossible to say, except once, when she learned that Alanna had bonded al'Thor,

and how. Her mouth compressed to a thin line and she frowned a hole though the wall, but while everyone else

expressed disgust, Merana thought of Cadsuane saying she had considered taking another Warder herself.

The answer was ignorance entirely too often to suit, but saying you did not know failed to quench

Cadsuane's appetite; she required every last shred and particle you did know, even if you did not know you

knew it. They managed to keep a little back, most of what had to be kept back, yet a few surprising things came

out that way, some very surprising, even from Annoura, who, it turned out, had been receiving detailed letters

from Berelain almost from the day the girl rode north. Cadsuane demanded answers, but gave none, and that

worried Merana. She watched faces grow dogged and defensive and apologetic, and wondered whether her own

looked the same.

"Cadsuane." She had to make one more effort. "Cadsuane, why have you decided to take an interest in

him now?" An unblinking gaze met hers for a moment, then Cadsuane turned her attention to Bera and Kiruna.

"So they actually managed to kidnap him right out of the palace," the gray-haired woman said, holding

out her empty cup for Daigian to refill. No one else had been offered tea. Cadsuane's expression and tone were

so neutral that Merana wanted to tear her own hair. Al'Thor would not be pleased if he learned Kiruna had

revealed the kidnapping, however inadvertently; Cadsuane used any slip of your tongue to pry out more than

you meant to say. At least the details of bis treatment had not come out. He had made plain how displeased he

would be if that happened. Merana thanked the Light that the woman was not staying with any one subject for

long.

 

All Cadsuane found out after the fog incident was that Rand was put in a box. Important, but hardly game changing, compared to the kidnapping itself.

 

What's more, Rand was in no way unreasonable at this point. In fact, during the fog incident, Cadsuane tells him and the Lords with the swords that they'll basically use magic and they should use their swords. This was done in a way asking Rand not to use saidan. He nodded yes with no argument, quicker than I've seen most AS respond to a request or order. Rand goes overboard in the books to come but when Cads came around, he had a bad temper but treated people well. He took every death caused by him, whether his fault or not, onto his own shoulders. THAT was his biggest problem. Much of the anger stems from that, too.

This is plain fanboyism. Rand agreed not to reveal he was a male channeler to a bunch of people he was secretly trying to win over to his side? This is what passes for reasonable?

Fanboyism?? I've probably read the books less than you. Rulers make laws. Hanging people is part of that, especially in Randland.

 

Listening to Cads was reasonable. One of the people he was trying to win over was already pretty sure he was the DR.

 

Unfortunate for me? I don't think so. And, my point, unfortunately for you, is that she went into his rooms knowing almost nothing about him like a bull in a china shop - which is what I said above. I mentioned the first meeting and said she gathered intelligence after that meeting. Which, it appears, you agree with me about - unfortunately.

 

As for agreeing with you about how the Tower AS came to him - I said that Cads could have come to him honestly which they did not. She doesnt get honest with him until after that first meeting.

 

Come on thiguy. Her methods and success have been spelled out in excruciating detail. She tested him herself and at the first available opportunity dug every scrap of info out(not after the fog as you claimed). Your initial point concerning the way she went about things has been sorely disabused. It is made abundantly clear in the text how and why she had to go about it the way she did.

If you look at my post, the original one, I said she doesn't find out about the box until after the fog - not all the other information. She asks Min about it after the other AS clear out the turnips from the back of a wagon. Her methods failed. The only thing that seemed to work was getting Tam to come visit. Which, I believe, you even posted - what she did worked accidentally. Her heart is in the right place and she did what needs doing but, IMO, she did it all wrong.

[thisguy]

And, by the way, I think knowing that her sister's shielded him, stuffed him in a box, barely fed him and beat him daily just a few days before she shows up is a big piece of information not to get a hold of. While he didn't want to bend knee to AS before he absolutely loathed them after - which is understandable. And, Rand not trusting AS partly came from counsel given to him by the one AS he somewhat trusted.

[Suttree]

. And, Rand not trusting AS partly came from counsel given to him by the one AS he somewhat trusted.

 

Which had everything to do with Siuan and Moirs search being forced underground by the BA killing spree. They had no idea who was who.

[fionwe1987]

 

Fanboyism?? I've probably read the books less than you. Rulers make laws. Hanging people is part of that, especially in Randland.

Except Rand wasn't a ruler, and never took on those responsibilites in Tear.

 

Listening to Cads was reasonable. One of the people he was trying to win over was already pretty sure he was the DR.

And...? The point is, listening to someone talking blindingly obvious sense isn't something you can tout as a sign of reasonableness.

Unfortunate for me? I don't think so. And, my point, unfortunately for you, is that she went into his rooms knowing almost nothing about him like a bull in a china shop - which is what I said above. I mentioned the first meeting and said she gathered intelligence after that meeting. Which, it appears, you agree with me about - unfortunately.

But she wanted to be the bull in the china shop. I don't know what, apart from giving you direct quotes from the books, I can do to convince you. Its not like Cadsuane's intention was to go to Rand and be lovable grandma, but she failed because she just couldn't stop herself from bullying him!

As for agreeing with you about how the Tower AS came to him - I said that Cads could have come to him honestly which they did not. She doesnt get honest with him until after that first meeting.

She was honest. She told him she came to see him. Which is exactly why she came. She told him she was a Green who had captured more male channelers than any 10 Reds. Which was the truth. She told him she knew about the voice in his head, and that she thought he was overwrought and tense, so she'll meet him later when he calmed down. All of this was exact truth. There was no subterfuge in any of this.

[thisguy]

Fanboyism?? I've probably read the books less than you. Rulers make laws. Hanging people is part of that, especially in Randland.

Except Rand wasn't a ruler, and never took on those responsibilites in Tear.

 

Listening to Cads was reasonable. One of the people he was trying to win over was already pretty sure he was the DR.

And...? The point is, listening to someone talking blindingly obvious sense isn't something you can tout as a sign of reasonableness.

Unfortunate for me? I don't think so. And, my point, unfortunately for you, is that she went into his rooms knowing almost nothing about him like a bull in a china shop - which is what I said above. I mentioned the first meeting and said she gathered intelligence after that meeting. Which, it appears, you agree with me about - unfortunately.

But she wanted to be the bull in the china shop. I don't know what, apart from giving you direct quotes from the books, I can do to convince you. Its not like Cadsuane's intention was to go to Rand and be lovable grandma, but she failed because she just couldn't stop herself from bullying him!

As for agreeing with you about how the Tower AS came to him - I said that Cads could have come to him honestly which they did not. She doesnt get honest with him until after that first meeting.

She was honest. She told him she came to see him. Which is exactly why she came. She told him she was a Green who had captured more male channelers than any 10 Reds. Which was the truth. She told him she knew about the voice in his head, and that she thought he was overwrought and tense, so she'll meet him later when he calmed down. All of this was exact truth. There was no subterfuge in any of this.

 

Actually, Rand was the ruler as the nobles swore fealty to him and ran the countries as he saw fit. He was a steward in both Cairhien and Andor with the idea of putting Elayne on the seat. Until then, he was ruling. He absolutely took on the responsibilities in Tear. He told them how he wanted the place ruled before leaving. The obviously followed at least some of his orders as they sent grain to Illian.

She was honest about who she was but not her intentions. Which, if you go back a whole bunch of posts, is what I said she could do.

 

Yes, I understand that she did what she did purposefully - that's exactly my point. I don't agree with her methods.

 

there was nothing blindingly obvious about listening to Cads in the fog being the right thing to do. You could argue that another OP user may have been necessary. You can argue that if she didn't take that moment to teach him a lesson by slapping him in the face that Fain wouldn't have gotten a chance to slash him with the dagger, etc.

 

As for Cads coming in when she came in to his rooms. He was ruling then. And, although, we don't know for sure from the books if it had started at that point or not - he was dealing with Berelain in a way to get her out of harm's way and still be useful when Cads came storming in. She's lucky he didn't fry her ass - he had just been kidnapped and rescued. Kinda like when Cads suggested taking him to somewhere (I believe Damodred's apartments) after Fain slashed him and Min saying that if he wakes up somewhere he different than he's used to there's no knowing what he could do. She took Min's suggestion. It may have been wise to get some info before making her first move on the DR - which she didn't.

[Sid]

See, this is why people have AMoL worries. thisguy has an opinion on Cadsuane's actions that is extremely difficult to shake because he doesn't like her. Brandon is in the same boat, admitted from his own mouth. Therefore they both see what they want to see about the character instead of using an objective point of view on the matter like RJ had. Unfortunately one of them is actually writing the series and cannot set these feelings aside, causing the character to be written with bias. Normally a fan with an opinion is annoying at worst, but when that opinion bleeds into the actual 'what is canon' in the series it leaves a smear that cannot be wiped away.

[thisguy]

Actually, what sealed it for me with Cads is the way she treated Flinn when he went to heal Rand. At that point, who was she to him? Min and Amys and the Ashaman either cared for or needed him more on a personal level.

[TyphoonBlade]

See, this is why people have AMoL worries. thisguy has an opinion on Cadsuane's actions that is extremely difficult to shake because he doesn't like her. Brandon is in the same boat, admitted from his own mouth. Therefore they both see what they want to see about the character instead of using an objective point of view on the matter like RJ had. Unfortunately one of them is actually writing the series and cannot set these feelings aside, causing the character to be written with bias. Normally a fan with an opinion is annoying at worst, but when that opinion bleeds into the actual 'what is canon' in the series it leaves a smear that cannot be wiped away.

 

+1

[thisguy]

Hahaha... this is brilliant. Not liking a character is no different than not liking a book. It seems to me that many people don't like the way she was written. It's no different than those who don't like the way BS ended up writing her.

[Suttree]

Hahaha... this is brilliant. Not liking a character is no different than not liking a book. It seems to me that many people don't like the way she was written. It's no different than those who don't like the way BS ended up writing her.

 

As Mr Ares said in a different thread...

 

Not so. You are free to dislike her and her methods, but if you wish to put forward a justification of your dislike don't be surprised if people poke holes in it. That's the problem - people are putting forward reasons which don't match with the text.

 

In addition Brandon by his own account let his bias leak in to the character and perhaps didn't handle her well. We have that info from Q&A's.

[thisguy]

Hahaha... this is brilliant. Not liking a character is no different than not liking a book. It seems to me that many people don't like the way she was written. It's no different than those who don't like the way BS ended up writing her.

 

As Mr Ares said in a different thread...

 

Not so. You are free to dislike her and her methods, but if you wish to put forward a justification of your dislike don't be surprised if people poke holes in it. That's the problem - people are putting forward reasons which don't match with the text.

 

In addition Brandon by his own account let his bias leak in to the character and perhaps didn't handle her well. We have that from a Q&A.

I'm fine with people not thinking BS handled her well. From what I've read here, most of the vocal members don't think he handled much well. Whatever...

 

What I said up top - her going into the DR's chambers knowing very little to nothing about him is true.

Her getting into a bit of a huff when Flinn went to heal him is true.

 

I don't think she's all knowing. I don't think all of her methods work. Both of which are true. For someone who seems to be a stickler for manners she doesn't always have them herself.

In fact, like many characters in the book, she tries to take control of things she knows little to nothing about. Sorry. She may have been necessary - in fact, she was written that way - but - as I've mentioned before - in my opinion, she often bungles the 'show, don't tell' rule of writing. We're told that she's held in awe but much of what she does inspires little to no awe in me. From the book we see that she got the result she wanted by accident.

 

And, I have a question, did she know that Rand's moods affected the land? Nobody ever brings it up. She goes in there thinking he needs changing before she ever even meets him.

[Neophyte]

See, this is why people have AMoL worries. thisguy has an opinion on Cadsuane's actions that is extremely difficult to shake because he doesn't like her. Brandon is in the same boat, admitted from his own mouth. Therefore they both see what they want to see about the character instead of using an objective point of view on the matter like RJ had. Unfortunately one of them is actually writing the series and cannot set these feelings aside, causing the character to be written with bias. Normally a fan with an opinion is annoying at worst, but when that opinion bleeds into the actual 'what is canon' in the series it leaves a smear that cannot be wiped away.

 

While this is true, I think that it was probably unavoidable. Any writer who would have been willing to take over another person's work would have had to be a fan, on some level, and being a fan, would have had his or her own opinions about the various characters. It is all but impossible, even for the very best writers, not to let that kind of thing color your writing - there is no such thing as an "objective point of view."

 

There are some things that might have been improved by greater effort on Brandon's part - continuity issues, stylistic issues (showing not telling is supposed to be a writer's mantra). But this sort of thing with the characters' voices - that could only have been resolved with extensive help from an editing team, I think. Brandon is every bit as much a prisoner of his own perception as the rest of us are - we literally cannot see/think/feel from another person's perspective, we can only try to produce an analog through the filter of our own perceptions.

 

So, it is thoroughly unsurprising to me that these issues have arisen - and unfortunately not that surprising that they haven't really been resolved to everyone's satisfaction. You have multiple layers of perception wrangling going on here - various fan's perceptions of how well Brandon's perceptions mimicked various fan's perceptions of RJ's perceptions. There is an interpretative path through that mess which can reasonably support a variety of sometimes conflicting conclusions about how Brandon has handled the characters.

 

To me, Brandon's Mat always felt more off than his Cadsuane - I regarded her mishandling of Tam at the end of TGS as the result of stress and worry (she could reasonably have thought that the end of the world had just been precipitated) and evidence that she is human and can make mistakes, nothing more. She bullied him, he called her out on it, and she tacitly acknowledged his point, releasing him.

 

Others obviously feel differently, and I can think of no conclusive argument against their interpretation.

 

Which is why I am inclined to simply enjoy it for how well it can be enjoyed, and not let the flaws tie me in knots.

[thisguy]

And, on a slightly different topic - In my opinion, Perrin was one of the coolest characters through book 4. Mat was a whiny little whatever - even before finding the dagger. I think RJ bungled Perrin's character. More than ever since someone here posted that he didn't know if Perrin was going to go the Way of the Leaf when BS got his hands on RJ's notes. Obviously, he wasn't sure about fundamental things about Perrin's character and I think that's why for 2 books he's just upset about his kidnapped wife.

 

Now, people here don't like Perrin. Seems he's, by far, the least loved of the three main characters from what I've seen here. I like the guy. I don't get in a huff about them not liking him. If someone says they don't like Cads - OMG!!! You're a fanboy, you're going against canon (as if the books were religious texts and we all part of the religion). It's amazing.

[Suttree]

And, I have a question, did she know that Rand's moods affected the land? Nobody ever brings it up. She goes in there thinking he needs changing before she ever even meets him.

 

No she goes in there testing him to size him up and then gathers all available intel to inform her decisions. We see that the results of this given in that quote posted earlier(rage) are remarkably accurate down to the smallest detail. As for not being awed by her are we reading the same books? Her actions have saved Rand's life and sanity multiple times over. The defense at the cleansing was just about the single most impressive battle plan we have seen and her plan to spring Rand from Far Madding was brilliant. Those are just a few of things she accomplishes and they are all "show not tell". Btw I think you are confusing what people mean when they say that term. It is used to present Brandon's penchant for having characters constantly think about or announce their intentions before they act instead of trusting the readers to reach their own conclusion as RJ did. It is very much a crutch and a shortcut for an author to take.

 

You're a fanboy, you're going against canon (as if the books were religious texts and we all part of the religion). It's amazing.

 

?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_(literature)

[thisguy]

And, I have a question, did she know that Rand's moods affected the land? Nobody ever brings it up. She goes in there thinking he needs changing before she ever even meets him.

 

No she goes in there testing him to size him up and then gathers all available intel to inform her decisions. We see the results of that given in that quote posted earlier are remarkably accurate down to the smallest detail. As for not being awed by her are we reading the same books? Her actions have saved Rand's life and sanity multiple times over. The defense at the cleansing was just about the single most impressive battle plan we have seen and her plan to spring Rand from Far Madding was brilliant. Those are just a few of things she accomplishes and they are all "show not tell". Btw I think you are confusing what people mean when they say that term. It is used to present Brandon's penchant for having characters constantly think about or announce their intentions instead of trusting the readers to reach their own conclusion as RJ did.

This is why I brought up Perrin - Min even has a reading that Perrin must be around Rand twice or he'll die. When people bash Perrin's character I don't get all upset over it. That's very good of her to save Rand's life considering he's going to save everybody's life. I guess they're even.

As for her getting info on him - this is where you lose me. If Dobraine or one of the Tower AS (sent by Elaida) or pick any other character stormed into his rooms, interrupting a meeting which she had not the slightest idea of what it was about, and acted that way I doubt anybody would be sticking up for them during one of these conversations.

What did she find out by that? He has a temper. There's some good steel in him? WOW! I am truly amazed.

 

No, I am not confusing the term. That term was around long before these books were. What I am saying is that RJ 'tells' us how amazing she is and how she's held in awe by the AS. BUT, I am not amazed by her actions. What he shows me about her doesn't seem to be much different than any other AS who is, at least, trying to do the right thing. She throws fireballs in the fog at the monsters. Cool. So, do the rest. There's nothing there showing us what a great leader she is or how she's any more powerful. Nothing. It's like if he said Mat has a head for war but never showed the reader anything more to prove the truth of that statement than he did with Rand or Perrin.

 

RJ writes that she's super AS. Her background proves that she is. But, there is very little shown within the first 30-50 pages that suggests that. If RJ didn't tell you that she was, I doubt anybody would think she is super AS.

 

Edit to add: by the way, I get that's what she went into his rooms for. It's not that I don't. As I just said, her acting the same manner she does not want him to act to get so little information from about him, doesn't seem like such a great strategy. Especially, given the fact that she didn't even know about his being kidnapped and abused. It seems like a novice move, not a move by someone who is so wise. People get upset at Rand when he makes a move without getting the info available - example - he doesn't learn a thing about the Sea Folk before getting on their boat to declare himself their Coramoor.

what she did is no different.

[Suttree]

What I am saying is that RJ 'tells' us how amazing she is and how she's held in awe by the AS. BUT, I am not amazed by her actions. What he shows me about her doesn't seem to be much different than any other AS who is, at least, trying to do the right thing. She throws fireballs in the fog at the monsters. Cool. So, do the rest. There's nothing there showing us what a great leader she is or how she's any more powerful. Nothing. It's like if he said Mat has a head for war but never showed the reader anything more to prove the truth of that statement than he did with Rand or Perrin.

 

Which totally ignores the points I made about the cleansing and Far Madding...as for the fog she is the one that takes control and organizes the group to get them out. She saves Rand's life(as he aknowledges). Are you arguing any other AS could have taken control but didnt'?

[thisguy]

What I am saying is that RJ 'tells' us how amazing she is and how she's held in awe by the AS. BUT, I am not amazed by her actions. What he shows me about her doesn't seem to be much different than any other AS who is, at least, trying to do the right thing. She throws fireballs in the fog at the monsters. Cool. So, do the rest. There's nothing there showing us what a great leader she is or how she's any more powerful. Nothing. It's like if he said Mat has a head for war but never showed the reader anything more to prove the truth of that statement than he did with Rand or Perrin.

 

Which totally ignores the points I made about the cleansing and Far Madding...as for the fog she is the one that takes control and organizes the group to get them out. She saves Rand's life(as he aknowledges). Are you arguing any other AS could have taken control but didnt'?

Sure am. I'm arguing Rand could have gotten out of there on his own. He's gotten out of stickier situations. In fact, if she didn't smack him and take his attention away from the trouble around him, it's entirely possible that Fain wouldn't have been able to stab him.

 

What was your point about the cleansing again, if you don't mind? And, did she know about his mood being tied to the land - his mental health? Also, if you wouldn't mind, can you tell me why people can dislike other characters but not her?

 

Edit to add: the comment doesn't ignore what you said as the comment says "within the first 30-50 pages".

[Suttree]

What I am saying is that RJ 'tells' us how amazing she is and how she's held in awe by the AS. BUT, I am not amazed by her actions. What he shows me about her doesn't seem to be much different than any other AS who is, at least, trying to do the right thing. She throws fireballs in the fog at the monsters. Cool. So, do the rest. There's nothing there showing us what a great leader she is or how she's any more powerful. Nothing. It's like if he said Mat has a head for war but never showed the reader anything more to prove the truth of that statement than he did with Rand or Perrin.

 

Which totally ignores the points I made about the cleansing and Far Madding...as for the fog she is the one that takes control and organizes the group to get them out. She saves Rand's life(as he aknowledges). Are you arguing any other AS could have taken control but didnt'?

Sure am. I'm arguing Rand could have gotten out of there on his own. He's gotten out of stickier situations. In fact, if she didn't smack him and take his attention away from the trouble around him, it's entirely possible that Fain wouldn't have been able to stab him.

 

What was your point about the cleansing again, if you don't mind? And, did she know about his mood being tied to the land - his mental health? Also, if you wouldn't mind, can you tell me why people can dislike other characters but not her?

 

Facts are facts. She was the only one to take action and save them. Rand quite obviously doesn't blame her for Fain(in fact the opposite he credits her with saving him) so not sure why yould attempt to question the facts in the story.

 

As for the cleansing she planned and orchestrated the entire defense which routed all of the forsaken. It's perhaps the most impressive channeling battle plan we have seen. Something that Rand didn't even give a moments thought to and wouldn't have been able to finish the cleansing with out. Same goes for Far Madding, he was back in a box with his sanity on the brink and about to be in Elaida's hands. Once again it is yet another scene in which we are "shown" how impressive she is which runs totally counter to your baseless claim that we are only "told"

 

As for his mood I'm not sure if we are ever told either way. She knows the prophecies well enough so it's possible. Don't think if we ever have gotten confirmation though.

 

Not sure what you mean by the last sentence? When have any of us argued that people aren't allowed to dislike her? As Mr Ares has said if your reasoning for that dislike is not sound prepare to have holes poked in it. It is something commonly done regardless of topic by the old guard on these boards.

[Mange]

First off, very well put and I do agree with your description of her reasons for behaving like that. My problem with her method is that there is a discrepancy between her objectives and her method. Her methods were used in order to earn Rands respect but not his trust which doesn’t resonate well with what she wanted to teach him.

 

Here is how I see Cadsuanes roll in the series. She saw that the way Rand were handling his feelings would not only be unhealthy to him but dangerous for the outcome of the last battle. There is really only one way of helping with a problem like that and that is by earning his trust. For all Cadsuanes plans (which you proved were well thought out and well executed) she did earn his respect but not his trust. He listened to her logic but not to her wisdom if that makes any sense.

 

In order to give myself a little credibility I use exhibit A; Tam. Rand completely trust his dad and do listen to his wisdom. It only took one scene until Tam had successfully countered all Rands fears and doubts about the outcome of the last battle and Rand started to feel a glimpse of hope (something Cadsuane never could inspire him to feel). It was only until Tam mentioned Cadsuanes name that the reunion went from ‘yaaaay-my-dad-is-here’ to ‘I’m-gonna-balefire-you-out-off- the-pattern-dad’. Rands reaction clearly showed how little he trusted Cadsuane and if she’s involved in any way he can’t trust it. It wouldn’t matter one bit how well Cadsuane would lay out her arguments to Rand he still wouldn’t take it into his heart like he did with Tam. Their whole relationship is completely off balance.

Oh I don't think Cadsuane would disagree with you here. Ask, and I'm sure she'd love to have been able to appraoch him and just talk in a normal way. But she couldn't, due to past events. Which is why she is so monumentally pissed at people like Elaida and Moiraine. They mishandled Rand, making it certain that he would mistrust and disrespect all Aes Sedai on sight. Heck, he got to the point of thinking Egwene would unleash Semirhage on him to spite him!

My whole point is if Cadsuane wanted to be an advisor to Rand, her method really worked well. However if she wanted to give Rand hope, make him connect with his feelings etc. etc., then no, she used wrong tools. By behaving like she did Rand respected her and would listen to logically, well-reasoned advice but he wouldn’t let her guide him.

I don't think Cadsuane ever intended herself to be the source of wisdom, though she did try now and then. She was well aware Rand didn't trust her, and if you read her PoV in CoT, she seems clear that she needs other inroads to change that aspect of Rand.

 

I'm on my way to work and can't go through this yet all the way, but from the bottom up: no, she did not make it clear to Rand until sometime after the fog incident. She just came storming into his rooms while he was talking with Berelain without permission; which I find funny as she's a stickler for manners.

 

She is not. Cadsuane doesn't give a damn about manners. She constantly pricks people's bubbles and pushes into their comfort zone with no care for personal space or the sensibilities of others. Cadsuane has a near Talent for rudeness and no real skill at diplomacy, as she herself acknowledges. That you think her rules for Rand's behavior has anything to do with her own preferences shows how little you understand the character.

 

Rand was not a tyrant when Cads came through. In fact, a great argument could be made that he ruled people better than their rulers. He made all the nobles have to follow the same laws with the same repercussions as the commoners. He made sure people were fed and safer than their own nobles could make them. In fact, the council in Illian give him the crown they say because he sent grain from Tear so their people didn't starve. If he became tyrannical, it wasn't until AFTER Cadsuane came into his life. Just to be clear, I'm not blaming her for that, I'm putting the timeline in correct order.

What you're saying is that Rand was a good tyrant. He used the terror his position and power caused in the nobles to force them to his view, which was that nobles can't kill normal people. The point is not what he forced people to do, its how he did it. He threatened to hang them. He didn't work to convince them. He didn't even manipulate them.

 

If you think the Rand of tGS came about suddenly, you're wrong. There was a gradual change in him till he got there, and by aCoS the signs were there for all to see, most certainly for someone like Cadsuane.

No, her kind did nothing of the sort. They came in reasonable from the Tower but not honest.

You're restating exactly what I said, but seem to think you're disagreeing with me...

As I've mentioned in the post above, Cadsuane did not tell Rand her intentions when she first came into his rooms. In fact, she was rude (She likes to shove his manners in his face) and didn't even know about the AS from the Tower sticking him in a box.

Yes. I beleive the reason she came in seeking to provoke him was made clear by Suttree's quote.

 

Cadsuane shook her head in pitying style. "If you want to see what a man is made of, push him from a direction he doesn't expect. There's good metal in that boy, I think, but he's going to be difficult." Steepling her fingers, she peered across them at the wall, musing to herself. "He has a rage in him fit to burn the world, and he holds it by a hair. Push him too far off balance .... Phaw! Al'Thor's not so hard yet as Logain Ablar or Mazrim Taim, but a hundred times as difficult, I fear." Hearing those three names together clove Merana's tongue to the

roof of her mouth.

 

Moreover, she didn't even try to find out until after the fog incident. She went in their with limited intel and didn't even try to get any - like a bull in a china shop. If any of the battle commanders did so before battle (unless they had no choice), we'd think they'd have done a bad job.

Yes... unfortunately for you, the first thing she did after meeting Rand was gather intel. Would you now concede she did a good job?

 

Before very long, Merana was glad to be sitting; before very long, she knew what laundry felt going

through the laundress's mangle. Cadsuane did all the questioning, dodging from topic to topic so you never

knew what was coming next. Corele held her peace except for chuckling now and then or shaking her head, and

Daigian did not even do that, of course. Merana caught the worst, her and Bera and Kiruna, yet Annoura was

certainly not spared.

Every time Berelain's advisor relaxed, thinking she was in the clear, Cadsuane skewered her anew.

The woman wanted to know everything, from the al'Thor boy's authority with the Aiel to why a Sea

Folk Wavemistress was anchored in the river, from whether Moiraine truly was dead to whether the boy really

had rediscovered Traveling and whether Berelain had bedded him or had any intention of it. What Cadsuane

thought of the answers was impossible to say, except once, when she learned that Alanna had bonded al'Thor,

and how. Her mouth compressed to a thin line and she frowned a hole though the wall, but while everyone else

expressed disgust, Merana thought of Cadsuane saying she had considered taking another Warder herself.

The answer was ignorance entirely too often to suit, but saying you did not know failed to quench

Cadsuane's appetite; she required every last shred and particle you did know, even if you did not know you

knew it. They managed to keep a little back, most of what had to be kept back, yet a few surprising things came

out that way, some very surprising, even from Annoura, who, it turned out, had been receiving detailed letters

from Berelain almost from the day the girl rode north. Cadsuane demanded answers, but gave none, and that

worried Merana. She watched faces grow dogged and defensive and apologetic, and wondered whether her own

looked the same.

"Cadsuane." She had to make one more effort. "Cadsuane, why have you decided to take an interest in

him now?" An unblinking gaze met hers for a moment, then Cadsuane turned her attention to Bera and Kiruna.

"So they actually managed to kidnap him right out of the palace," the gray-haired woman said, holding

out her empty cup for Daigian to refill. No one else had been offered tea. Cadsuane's expression and tone were

so neutral that Merana wanted to tear her own hair. Al'Thor would not be pleased if he learned Kiruna had

revealed the kidnapping, however inadvertently; Cadsuane used any slip of your tongue to pry out more than

you meant to say. At least the details of bis treatment had not come out. He had made plain how displeased he

would be if that happened. Merana thanked the Light that the woman was not staying with any one subject for

long.

 

All Cadsuane found out after the fog incident was that Rand was put in a box. Important, but hardly game changing, compared to the kidnapping itself.

 

What's more, Rand was in no way unreasonable at this point. In fact, during the fog incident, Cadsuane tells him and the Lords with the swords that they'll basically use magic and they should use their swords. This was done in a way asking Rand not to use saidan. He nodded yes with no argument, quicker than I've seen most AS respond to a request or order. Rand goes overboard in the books to come but when Cads came around, he had a bad temper but treated people well. He took every death caused by him, whether his fault or not, onto his own shoulders. THAT was his biggest problem. Much of the anger stems from that, too.

This is plain fanboyism. Rand agreed not to reveal he was a male channeler to a bunch of people he was secretly trying to win over to his side? This is what passes for reasonable?

 

 

I guess that is why I have such a big problem understanding her course of action in her first scene. Oh, I do understand her reasons why (they are even spelled out in the book) but I definitely don’t agree with them. A first impression is very important (not only to the reader) and I don’t see why she wastes the opportunity by putting up a scene like that. She finds out what he’s made of, okay, but at the same time cement the relationship they can have. Either she should have made some of the other Aes Sedais do her dirty work (I know, not very noble but still) or she just have to find out the regular way; wait and see. She would very quickly see what kind of person Rand is due to the extreme situations he always ends up in. It’s as she expects that after the first meeting is over they start over on a new slate. No, they don’t. That first impression is now forever gone and Rand will have a very hard time changing his first impression of her. To me, that tactic only limits her set of tools and she doesn’t gain anything from it that she won’t be able to deduct later on.

 

The theory of Rand never going to trust an Aes Sedai so I can plot and scheme behind his back anyway is flawed in the way of self-fulfilling prophecies always are.

[SuperFade]

Cadsuane snapping at Tam makes perfect sense to me. Cadsuane may be a legend and she has certainly shown herself to possess a cast-iron will, but everybody has their limits. From Cadsuane's perspective Tam's deviation from her script had caused Rand to go off the deep end. She knows he has the CK and the will to use it, and that the world is now in very real danger of being destroyed either by Rand himself or by the Dark One if Rand doesn't return to face his destiny. With the world facing destruction it's not surprising that Cadsuane's mental control finally breaks and causes her to lash out at the nearest available target.

[thisguy]

What I am saying is that RJ 'tells' us how amazing she is and how she's held in awe by the AS. BUT, I am not amazed by her actions. What he shows me about her doesn't seem to be much different than any other AS who is, at least, trying to do the right thing. She throws fireballs in the fog at the monsters. Cool. So, do the rest. There's nothing there showing us what a great leader she is or how she's any more powerful. Nothing. It's like if he said Mat has a head for war but never showed the reader anything more to prove the truth of that statement than he did with Rand or Perrin.

 

Which totally ignores the points I made about the cleansing and Far Madding...as for the fog she is the one that takes control and organizes the group to get them out. She saves Rand's life(as he aknowledges). Are you arguing any other AS could have taken control but didnt'?

Sure am. I'm arguing Rand could have gotten out of there on his own. He's gotten out of stickier situations. In fact, if she didn't smack him and take his attention away from the trouble around him, it's entirely possible that Fain wouldn't have been able to stab him.

 

What was your point about the cleansing again, if you don't mind? And, did she know about his mood being tied to the land - his mental health? Also, if you wouldn't mind, can you tell me why people can dislike other characters but not her?

 

Facts are facts. She was the only one to take action and save them. Rand quite obviously doesn't blame her for Fain(in fact the opposite he credits her with saving him) so not sure why yould attempt to question the facts in the story.

 

As for the cleansing she planned and orchestrated the entire defense which routed all of the forsaken. It's perhaps the most impressive channeling battle plan we have seen. Something that Rand didn't even give a moments thought to and wouldn't have been able to finish the cleansing with out. Same goes for Far Madding, he was back in a box with his sanity on the brink and about to be in Elaida's hands. Once again it is yet another scene in which we are "shown" how impressive she is which runs totally counter to your baseless claim that we are only "told"

 

As for his mood I'm not sure if we are ever told either way. She knows the prophecies well enough so it's possible. Don't think if we ever have gotten confirmation though.

 

Not sure what you mean by the last sentence? When have any of us argued that people aren't allowed to dislike her? As Mr Ares has said if your reasoning for that dislike is not sound prepare to have holes poked in it. It is something commonly done regardless of topic by the old guard on these boards.

Umm... no, she wasn't. They all took action. The other characters all snapped into action.

 

UMMMMMMMMM.... first of all - if you actually read what I wrote I said the first 30-50 pages. If she did something books later. Great.

 

As I've said, her running into her -

I'll be back. Have to close computer at work.